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View Full Version : Roleplaying Men of Honor in a Den of Murderers?



Triple Decker
2019-01-31, 10:59 AM
I am playing in a role-play heavy homebrew 5e game as a LG cleric, and so far, I've tried to play him as a reasonable, but principled person who isn't RoboCop. He tries not to kill anyone that might repent or is acting under duress, but has killed people who won't stay down when they've been beaten, and executed prisoners who show no remorse or hope for change. He has gently reprimanded people for not being more careful in this endeavor, but never been forceful about it or refused to help or heal. (It has been my explicit goal NOT to be lawful stupid, so I've overlooked a lot of small-time barbarism, like dismembering corpses or intentionally causing pain.) As a group, we have agreed and done well not to be murder-hobos.

There's another guy in our group, a rogue (I know you can see where this is going; bear with me, please), who sold his soul to Asmodeus for power (some stat buffs and a few SLAs), but has been keeping it a secret. Our whole group has kind of known about this guy's deal because our DM telegraphed some shady stuff about him almost from the outset, but we're all close friends and we didn't want to metagame, so we mostly ignored the things that we might have otherwise been suspcious about because we didn't want to ruin the "turn" for that character.

Well, it was recently revealed when the rogue brutally murdered someone we were going to interrogate with crazy powers we hadn't seen before. Out of character, the prisoner deserved it for his crimes, and we might have killed him anyway, but we hadn't questioned him, or even given him the same rundown that we had given all of our other prisoners up to that point. The problem came down to the fact that our rogue said this guy had murdered his wife and kid and he wanted revenge.

In talking with my friends, there is about a 50/50 disagreement with what I believe is a nuance between killing and murder, between righteous vengeance and revenge. Whether you agree with that or not may have a bearing on the situation, but I don't think anyone can disagree that a LG cleric would have issues with someone they consider a friend and ally making deals with Asmodeus.

THE PROBLEM: The DM and rogue's player think that I'm being too high strung (as a player) and that by saying my cleric would not tolerate this turn of events I'm trying to dictate other players' actions. It hasn't come to pass yet, but I explained out of character to the DM and player that my cleric would insist on fixing the rogue's "problem" (which may result in a loss of "phenomenal cosmic powers!"), or the cleric wouldn't stick around. Not because I want to control the other player's actions, I just believe that's how my cleric would feel and act. I don't think the rogue acted out of character either! I'm not angry about the in-character stuff, and if it meant my cleric leaving the group and rolling a new character I would not bat an eye at this (healing has scarcely been needed!), but I feel pressured to sacrifice my character's personality in order for everyone else to keep from feeling guilty (I guess?), and this is what makes me a little salty.

Am I being unreasonable? :frown:

Key Points:

Everyone in our [6 player] group has played their character appropriately.
The group is largely in favor of the rogue, but most lean chaotic [ethics] or neutral [morals].
My character was built around his LG principles from the outset and this was clear to everyone.
There is not a unifying event or goal that keeps our characters together other than we live in the same very small town.
I don't know why they're opposed to me playing something different.


TL;DR: I'd rather play another character than to play this one counter to everything he has done up until now, but my friends are acting like I'm having a tantrum while I'm trying to be super cool about it and it's jarring. What do?

zlefin
2019-01-31, 11:19 AM
if your description is accurate, then your friends are just wrong and you are correct and you're being very reasonable.
You just need to keep talking to them to explain the situation; and if they don't understand, try alternate explanations.

this seems to result from an apparently bad decision to setup an in-party problem, but refuse to follow through on the logical consequences. i.e. if they aren't willing to go through things like this then they shouldn't setup scenarios that lead to party conflict at all. it's hardly unheard of for people to balk when faced with the actual consequences of the path they chose.
some people tend to go "the party stays together, regardless of the situation/realism", if that's what they're like, then they need to forbid things which would lead to party conflict like major alignment conflicts.

Koo Rehtorb
2019-01-31, 11:29 AM
From where I'm coming from, they should be grateful that the cleric is willing to leave peacefully instead of putting this devil worshiping scum to the sword.

That said, this is the sort of problem that should have been brought up in character creation and one of you shouldn't have made the character that you did, if you're not okay with group strife being a part of the campaign.

Particle_Man
2019-01-31, 12:41 PM
The solution I would go for:

1) Have your LG cleric leave the party.
2) Roll up a character that was secretly a relative of the person the Rogue murdered. Have this character specifically statted up to be able to kill the Rogue.
3) Kill the Rogue (perhaps while keeping watch or something - don't do this in such a way that you fail, but if you both die together that is fine and you can skip step 4).
4) Have this character leave the party.
5) Have your LG cleric rejoin the party.

Problem solved, everyone roleplays their characters with the appropriate consequences, and the party can go back to being mostly LG.

Koo Rehtorb
2019-01-31, 12:47 PM
The solution I would go for:

1) Have your LG cleric leave the party.
2) Roll up a character that was secretly a relative of the person the Rogue murdered. Have this character specifically statted up to be able to kill the Rogue.
3) Kill the Rogue (perhaps while keeping watch or something - don't do this in such a way that you fail, but if you both die together that is fine and you can skip step 4).
4) Have this character leave the party.
5) Have your LG cleric rejoin the party.

Problem solved, everyone roleplays their characters with the appropriate consequences, and the party can go back to being mostly LG.

no dont do that one

Grim Portent
2019-01-31, 01:01 PM
Problem solved, everyone roleplays their characters with the appropriate consequences, and the party can go back to being mostly LG.

According to the OP the party is mostly Chaotics and Neutrals, to make it mostly LG would require killing more than just the Rogue, not to mentioned the massive amount of passive aggressiveness involved. If the OP wanted to kill the rogue they should just do it in a proper PvP battle with their current character.


@OP So your main issue is that they don't want you to reroll to a character who could tolerate the rogue having an infernal bargain, while you don't want to change your character's personality. Have the other players said why they think you rerolling is a problem? It sounds like it'd be perfectly in character for your PC to leave and a less... let's go with judgemental character to show up guided by dark forces conveniently shortly after.

It should really be as easy as 'LG cleric walks out the door, NE/CN/CE cleric walks in and says [evil god] sent him.'

Triple Decker
2019-01-31, 01:06 PM
The solution I would go for:

1) Have your LG cleric leave the party.
2) Roll up a character that was secretly a relative of the person the Rogue murdered. Have this character specifically statted up to be able to kill the Rogue.
3) Kill the Rogue (perhaps while keeping watch or something - don't do this in such a way that you fail, but if you both die together that is fine and you can skip step 4).
4) Have this character leave the party.
5) Have your LG cleric rejoin the party.

Problem solved, everyone roleplays their characters with the appropriate consequences, and the party can go back to being mostly LG.

We are all close friends IRL, I'm a frequent DM/GM, and I don't want this to be a group-killing problem; I don't have a LGS or a huge pool of gamers in my rural area. Also, the group is mostly CG with a side of "questionable espionage."

The group (DM mostly) is making this out to be a "share the spotlight" kind of issue, and I feel like I have more than complied with that (even going so far as to make myself almost unavailable in some sessions because I was allowing my character to get metaphorically tied up doing other things so as not to notice some of the things he would disagree with). Our last couple of sessions have had a lot to do with my character, so it kinda feels like I'm caught in a trap.

I do a lot of research about DMing and being a good player because this is my favorite hobby, and I feel like I'm pretty cool about it. I've learned a lot from watching streaming gamers and youtube channels over the past few years, so suddenly feeling like I'm in the wrong when I've tried so hard not to be -- and feeling so defensive about it like it's a problem I've had in the past, because it hasn't been! -- like I said, it's jarring. Looking for validation from strangers on the internet is very trendy, I guess.

Particle_Man
2019-01-31, 01:20 PM
Well, in that case, have the LG cleric leave the party and role up some new character that would fit the ethos of the party. CG or CN, perhaps? I mean, ultimately it is only a character. You would role up a new one if it died, and you can role up a new one by having it leave (perhaps to become an NPC, or perhaps to just leave the story for good).

Triple Decker
2019-01-31, 01:44 PM
Well, in that case, have the LG cleric leave the party and role up some new character that would fit the ethos of the party. CG or CN, perhaps? I mean, ultimately it is only a character. You would role up a new one if it died, and you can role up a new one by having it leave (perhaps to become an NPC, or perhaps to just leave the story for good).

I have offered to do that, but I'm getting push back. It's confusing and frustrating.

Keltest
2019-01-31, 03:09 PM
I have offered to do that, but I'm getting push back. It's confusing and frustrating.

Two things.

First off, its your character. Ultimately, you get the deciding vote. If you don't want to play this character anymore, they cant do squat about it. You need to decide if you want to try and make the character work and then stick with your decision.

Having said that, these guys are your friends, right? Talk to them. Sit them down and explain to them that you don't think you can play this character if the rest of the party keeps on doing what theyre doing. That out of character you don't mind, you would just prefer to play somebody who isn't going against the grain so much. Communication is almost always the solution to these problems. If it isn't working, apply more.

Draken
2019-02-01, 02:23 PM
When these things happen in my group we just do what needs to be done for everything to stay in character, even if it means someone has to make a new sheet afterwards.

Reversefigure4
2019-02-02, 06:32 PM
I have offered to do that, but I'm getting push back. It's confusing and frustrating.

Character continuity can be important for a campaign. Not-Robocop leaving and being replaced with New PC may be difficult to justify in story, depending on where you're game is (for example, a new PC turning up on a desert island just as the old one disappears). Or you might lose NPC connections, or story points by changing characters.

If that's the issue, you could ask for an in-storyline justification - a piece of plot magic - that makes you character turn Chaotic Neutral (and probably change deities) and become more in line with the group's goals and agendas. Mind control by the rogue, the temptation of power from Asmodeus, the sudden death of his previously-unmentioned father changing his personality, etc.

Triple Decker
2019-02-02, 07:05 PM
Character continuity can be important for a campaign. Not-Robocop leaving and being replaced with New PC may be difficult to justify in story, depending on where you're game is (for example, a new PC turning up on a desert island just as the old one disappears). Or you might lose NPC connections, or story points by changing characters.

If that's the issue, you could ask for an in-storyline justification - a piece of plot magic - that makes you character turn Chaotic Neutral (and probably change deities) and become more in line with the group's goals and agendas. Mind control by the rogue, the temptation of power from Asmodeus, the sudden death of his previously-unmentioned father changing his personality, etc.

The last half is tantamount to making a new character, though. If plot magic can make my character suddenly become a completely different person (or have a sudden alignment shift and complete change in values), why can't plot magic make another character happen to be where we're going while the cleric stays behind?

I've just decided to stick it out, keep my mouth shut, and pretend my character is oblivious to it all (because he can't very well condone it, much less encourage it), at least until such a time that my character has a solid exit window since he's not meshing well with the group. Thanks to everyone for the input.

The Glyphstone
2019-02-02, 07:50 PM
Why are you getting pushback? Are you the only healer and so they think you have to stay as the medbot?

Zaharra
2019-02-03, 05:42 AM
Totally be mad about it, be furious even, lecture and chide, but if you've been working together with the group for years than maybe your cleric understands having to overlook one bad egg to be in a group for the greater good of the world, that a group of highly skilled heroes is rare and that the acts you perform with the group are things you could never do alone

Talk ic and explain to the rest of your companions that this sort of thing can never happen again, that you don't want to be in the company of murders and you'd like them all to agree to that. Forgive but don't forget kinda thing, or something like that

Triple Decker
2019-02-03, 11:48 AM
Why are you getting pushback? Are you the only healer and so they think you have to stay as the medbot?

I really couldn't say. The amount of healing I've actually had to do has likely been negligible but for a couple of instances of miracle saves via healing word. One of my replacement ideas was a dwarf cleric anyway, so I don't think that's the case. The DM probably has a story beat he needs the character for, and the others think I'm probably just lying about being okay with playing something different.

Reversefigure4
2019-02-03, 01:54 PM
The last half is tantamount to making a new character, though. If plot magic can make my character suddenly become a completely different person (or have a sudden alignment shift and complete change in values), why can't plot magic make another character happen to be where we're going while the cleric stays behind?

It's pretty close to making a new character, yes, but does allow you to keep existing NPC links and presence. Whether or not you want to do it is up to you, but it may remove some of the DM's objections to a new character.

dps
2019-02-03, 03:31 PM
The last half is tantamount to making a new character, though. If plot magic can make my character suddenly become a completely different person (or have a sudden alignment shift and complete change in values), why can't plot magic make another character happen to be where we're going while the cleric stays behind?

I've just decided to stick it out, keep my mouth shut, and pretend my character is oblivious to it all (because he can't very well condone it, much less encourage it), at least until such a time that my character has a solid exit window since he's not meshing well with the group. Thanks to everyone for the input.

I agree that the suggestion about changing your characters alignment and personality is tantamount to rolling up a new character, so I certainly wouldn't recommend that idea.


You need to talk to the other players and the DM about why they are pushing back about your character leaving and you creating a new character (talk to the DM separately from the other players). There are really only 3 choices--you roll up another character, you continue to play the same character but not the way you want to play him, or you play your character the way you feel appropriate and everyone has to deal with the resulting conflict within the group. They have no right to force you into the second choice, so if they aren't OK with the third choice, they need to allow you to take the first choice.

Xuc Xac
2019-02-03, 06:19 PM
I don't see how changing alignment solves anything.

Good character: "You killed a prisoner before we could interrogate him. That's morally wrong and just plain stupid, you moron!"

Evil character: "You killed a prisoner before we could interrogate him. That's strategically wrong and just plain stupid, you moron!"

Pauly
2019-02-03, 08:32 PM
This is kind of what happens IRL too. People who are LG don’t hang around with CN, CE or NE type of people (and vice versa).

Your cleric character is going to have a crunch with the rogue character sooner or later. One of the players is going to have to give up playing their character the way it is originally imagined or your characters are going to have a conflict that can only be resolved by mortal combat or leaving the party.

One possible solution is your cleric losing faith in the G part of LG and transitioning to worshipping a LN God.

I always thought of robocop more as LN the way he was originally programmed rather than the LG he became when Murphy resurfaced. Another way is classic Judge Dredd who is internally LG but acts LN because he considers L much more important than G. However both approaches are heavily anti-chaotic.

Hackulator
2019-02-04, 12:03 AM
Barring the need to solve some world ending problem that only the rogue can help with, I think there is no reasonable way a LG cleric could be expected to stick around with a murderous rogue who LITERALLY SOLD HIS SOUL TO THE DEVIL. It is perfectly reasonable for you to say your character can't take part and it seems insane to me that they'd give you a problem over it. Explain to them that the options are

A) Massive interparty conflict possibly leading to PvP

B) Forcing you to play your character in a way that you think isn't how he'd act and makes him less fun for you

or

C) Let you roll something new that fits with this party.

The only reason why I would see it being a bad idea to do this is that your group is so immature they can't handle a reasonable conversation about this, in which case, oh well I guess you're stuck and it sucks.

This is also ignoring the idea that CG character who are ok with someone having sold their soul to Asmodeus are almost certainly not roleplaying their alignment.

Assuming your description of the situation is 100% accurate, I would possibly consider showing them this thread.