[AL Legal] Kensei Time! (Advice please!)

[prototype00]

So I’m the near future, I should be able to unlock, via a DM Quest, what is quite possibly the largest trove of magical items since White Plume Mountain. (In for a Penny, check it out if you play AL, it’s nuts)

Two of the guaranteed unlocks are Bracers of Defence and a Flametongue Longsword. And I thought to myself: “Prototype00, it’s time to build that Kensei!”

So a couple of questions.

- Race I am leaning Wood Elf for Elven Accuracy. Will that come up ifren enough with Stunning Strike to make a difference?

- Feats will probably be Mobile/ Elven Accuracy then Max Dex then Wisdom. Anything I’m missing?

- how have people found the Kensei at different tiers of play? Effective? I’ve never played a Monk in this edition yet.

[PeteNutButter]

So I’m the near future, I should be able to unlock, via a DM Quest, what is quite possibly the largest trove of magical items since White Plume Mountain. (In for a Penny, check it out if you play AL, it’s nuts)

Two of the guaranteed unlocks are Bracers of Defence and a Flametongue Longsword. And I thought to myself: “Prototype00, it’s time to build that Kensei!”

So a couple of questions.

- Race I am leaning Wood Elf for Elven Accuracy. Will that come up ifren enough with Stunning Strike to make a difference?

- Feats will probably be Mobile/ Elven Accuracy then Max Dex then Wisdom. Anything I’m missing?

- how have people found the Kensei at different tiers of play? Effective? I’ve never played a Monk in this edition yet.

I've seen several monks in play, (though not the most optimized) and I doubt that stunning strike is enough to justify elven accuracy. It seems to take roughly 3 ki to land a stun on tough enemies and even then if you have competent allies they'll kill it before you ever get a full turn against the stunned foe.

I recently unlocked a rebuild via DM quests and am also considering a monk for my my previously retired level 16 paladin/sorc. I'm leaning towards variant human as monks are so ASI starved, likely picking up Mobile feat. I'm still looking for a way to make the build unique, as I couldn't possibly play a single-classed character.

[Keravath]

I've seen several monks in play, (though not the most optimized) and I doubt that stunning strike is enough to justify elven accuracy. It seems to take roughly 3 ki to land a stun on tough enemies and even then if you have competent allies they'll kill it before you ever get a full turn against the stunned foe.

I recently unlocked a rebuild via DM quests and am also considering a monk for my my previously retired level 16 paladin/sorc. I'm leaning towards variant human as monks are so ASI starved, likely picking up Mobile feat. I'm still looking for a way to make the build unique, as I couldn't possibly play a single-classed character.

Popular multiclasses are two levels of warlock (for hex and devils sight if playing a shadow monk) or three levels of gloomstalker ranger for the extra first round attack, extra movement on the first round, invisibility in darkness where opponents are using darkvision to try to see you, hunter's mark, an extra skill, a fighting style and darkvision if your race doesn't already have it.

Short rest resources of the warlock mesh well with monk but it requires 13 charisma. On the other hand the ranger multiclass only requires dex and wisdom which you are boosting anyway.

[Galithar]

I've seen several monks in play, (though not the most optimized) and I doubt that stunning strike is enough to justify elven accuracy. It seems to take roughly 3 ki to land a stun on tough enemies and even then if you have competent allies they'll kill it before you ever get a full turn against the stunned foe.

I recently unlocked a rebuild via DM quests and am also considering a monk for my my previously retired level 16 paladin/sorc. I'm leaning towards variant human as monks are so ASI starved, likely picking up Mobile feat. I'm still looking for a way to make the build unique, as I couldn't possibly play a single-classed character.

Stunning Strike (in my opinion) is meant to set up your allies more than yourself. As such I would only worry about Elven Accuracy if your DM plays with Flanking rules, which I don't think is AL rules. I don't play AL though, so if it is then Elven Accuracy is awesome. Your mobility allows you to flank easily.

Kensei are a weird class that I feel is not fantastic without some DM leniency. They seem good on paper in my opinion, but in practice most of their abilities aren't great. They can add to their AC by making a unarmed strike with the attack action, which is in direct opposition to the benefits they get in early levels of being able to use martial weapons to get a higher damage die. Later on though the fact that they get martial weapons becomes obsolete as their martial die improves beyond the weapons damage die. They can use Ki to make their weapon magical... But that's useless as soon as you get an actual magic weapon.

Basically if you want optimized don't be a Kensei. But if you want to optimize a Kensei just because you want to play a Kensei then hopefully someone can give you better insights then me.

[prototype00]

Elven Accuracy is kind of a gimme since it boosts your Dex to 18 and gives you a bonus effect though.

Hmm so popular consensus is that Kensei underperforms somewhat...?

[bid]

Elven Accuracy is kind of a gimme since it boosts your Dex to 18 and gives you a bonus effect though.
Only if you start with Dex17, which is somewhat a waste (16 16 14 10 10 8 is better).

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Hmm so popular consensus is that Kensei underperforms somewhat...?

Honestly, if that's so then 'popular consensus' is simply wrong. People seem to have something against it because of the whole "use a punch instead of a weapon for one attack thing" - but unless you have a really good magic weapon* it's an extremely good deal. You lose at most three damage (and probably less, and eventually zero) for 2 AC. That's a good trade.

They're not spectacular by any means, but for the most part no Monk subclasses are, since so much with the Monk is built into the main chassis.

*or you have Sharpen the Blade up, but then again, StB is also really good, so that's not much of a point against them.

[Foxhound438]

- Race I am leaning Wood Elf for Elven Accuracy. Will that come up ifren enough with Stunning Strike to make a difference?

- Feats will probably be Mobile/ Elven Accuracy then Max Dex then Wisdom. Anything I’m missing?

- how have people found the Kensei at different tiers of play? Effective? I’ve never played a Monk in this edition yet.

1- probably not, but that's not as much because of stunning strike as the feat itself being highly overrated. A third die is going to be way less beneficial than the first extra, since a typical 65% hit chance is boosted to 87.75% with one extra die, and a third boosts it to about 96%. The marginal gain there is pretty small, and if you have any sort of bonus to your attack roll beyond the normal expected for your level (ie sharpen the blade), the marginal gain gets smaller. Lucky would be better to get the extra chance to hit once you already know you'd need it for that attack.

2- I don't think you're missing anything. Another person recommended taking Variant human and skipping elven accuracy and I agree for the above reason. Probably take a bonus to con if you get that 5th ASI.

3- honestly, vastly disappointing. I played one at 3rd-4th level and found that the increase to AC didn't really come into play as the times that I got attacked I was either being missed by a mile or hit with rolls of 16+ on the die. I missed a few sessions of that campaign due to schedule conflicts but ended up coming back a while later at 6th level, and... same story. The extra AC felt insignificant when I was being attacked by boss monsters, and I didn't ever use the deft strike because I consider it less valuable than stunning strike if I don't crit, but I never got any crits with the weapon swings. Important note, you can't deft strike on your unarmed strikes. Of course that's all one person's anecdote, but I don't think the benefits that were technically there on paper would have made much of a difference if they had given me their "expected values" of hits avoided and extra damage on crits. Especially when you're losing out on things that you can actively leverage like pushing flurries or shadow teleports. I haven't played one with tier 3 or 4 abilities, so I can only tell you that they look equally prone to disappoint due to d20 results as the previous ones. But all that said, I didn't have bracers of defense and a flametongue, so I don't know how that'd effect my feel for kensai in this case.

[PeteNutButter]

The best way to look at Elven Accuracy is it's basically the same cost as starting Variant Human and getting a feat (in this case Mobile). Either way both characters have a feat and 18 dex at level 4. So, is elven accuracy better than mobile on a monk that doesn't have a reliable way to generate advantage? I'd say not, but starting human prevents you from ever getting elven accuracy. There are other elf bonuses, like darkvision, that might make you go with the elf, but every +2 dex/wis you miss out on(to get a feat) is tough on a monk.

Elven Accuracy is about as good as having bless to your attack roll, but only when you have advantage (when you're likely to hit already). What that means is the feat is fantastic if you always have advantage, but pretty mediocre if advantage isn't common.

As for subclass, personally I consider Long Death to be one of the best. I haven't played a kensei past level 7 yet though.


Popular multiclasses are two levels of warlock (for hex and devils sight if playing a shadow monk) or three levels of gloomstalker ranger for the extra first round attack, extra movement on the first round, invisibility in darkness where opponents are using darkvision to try to see you, hunter's mark, an extra skill, a fighting style and darkvision if your race doesn't already have it.

Short rest resources of the warlock mesh well with monk but it requires 13 charisma. On the other hand the ranger multiclass only requires dex and wisdom which you are boosting anyway.

I'm aware of the common MC out there. :smalltongue: I need to make something unique, exotic, or gimmicky (but still functioning) to hold my interest. I've got a few ideas working. I'll probably post a thread on this soon, once they flesh out.

[Spiritchaser]

Elven Accuracy is kind of a gimme since it boosts your Dex to 18 and gives you a bonus effect though.

Hmm so popular consensus is that Kensei underperforms somewhat...?

Caveat: I do not play AL

The common theory is that your key power, sharpen the blade, is largely (or in some opinions fully) irrelevant because of magical weapons.

Flame tongue pretty much turns this logic on its head... a sharpened flame tongue is one of the most diabolical things out there... it’s just awesome and only a Kensai gets it except...

There’s a little interpretation on sharpen. If you play AL you may already know the official line on this. I don’t, and if you don’t you should probably check.

Sharpen states that it has no effect on a weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls.

I would interpret this as +x weapons and very.clearly NOT a problem with flame tongue

But I don’t know if there’s a counterintuitive official ruling you might need to be aware of.

[Misterwhisper]

My Kensei Breakdown:

A. Weapon Choice:

A monk can already use dexterity with their monk weapons, and they can use dexterity with any weapon that they choose for their Kensei weapon.
A monk also has no reason to not be using a weapon two handed if it is versatile because they can't use a shield and they can bonus action attack anyway so no reason to ever two weapon fight.
You start with 2 choices, one melee and one ranged, but they can't be heavy and can't have special properties, so that leaves:

Battleaxe/Longsword/Warhammer: Same weapon essentially, it is a 1d8 weapon with versatile 1d10. So one die size bigger damage if used two handed than a spear that you can already use but it is not a throwing weapon. 1 damage higher but not throwable, kind of breaks even.

Flail/Morningstar/Pick: Same weapons again, but this time just non-versatile versions of the better ones. No reason to ever pick these.

Rapier/Scimitar/Shortsword: The finesse property is redundant because you already can use dex, and light doesn't matter because you don't dual wield. So all these are replaceable with a spear or great club if you really wanted. Only reason to pick these is you pick the parry feat or you are multiclassing into rogue. But then again, you could just use a dagger or short sword, but you can't sneak attack with an unarmed strike, so just kind of ok, not great even then.

Trident: It is just a worse spear... so no reason to pick it, ever.

Whip: Gives reach, which can be nice, but it will always scale with your unarmed damage so you are not gaining any damage. A subclass pick to get a ranged option, maybe.

Ranged Weapons: They might as well have just said, "Pick a melee weapon and a longbow"

You get 5 choices over the subclass but you never have a reason to use more than 2, one ranged and one melee.
Your melee choices are: 7 weapons that are the same as something you already use, or just plain worse, 3 weapons that are all the same but net you one point of damage for losing the thrown trait, and 1 weapon that is the a damage loss for a good while and then does no more than unarmed but gives you reach.

B. 3rd level Kensei ability:

Melee: You now know how to use your new weapon in melee, so at most you gained 1 point of damage in by giving up the versatility of using a spear as well as not using PAM if you chose to take it.
However, for level 3 and 4 you only get one weapon attack and a bonus unarmed attack maybe 2 if you flurry. You can attack with your new weapon, or you can just stand there and hold it and use an unarmed strike like every other monk can do to gain +2 ac but now you have dropped from a 1d8 or maybe 1d10 damage to a 1d4 for that 2AC.
At level 5+ you can make 2 weapon attacks and 1 or 2 unarmed, or you can make 1 weapon attack and 2 maybe 3 unarmed strikes to gain 2 AC. You are essentially giving up the whole point of the subclass to use a different part of the same subclass.
Also, any monk could just spend a Ki to dodge if they really want to be defensive, and keep their kensei weapon damage.


Ranged: Bonus action to add 1d4 to each ranged attack. Nothing wrong with that. You can always make unarmed attacks while holding the Longbow so you can still make OA. The issue is that many monks are elves who can already use a longbow, and all monks can use a short bow so it is just a 2-3 damage boost at the cost of your bonus action.
EX. Wood Elf is a VERY common race for monks, and they can all use a longbow. So any woodelf can attack at range if needed for 1d8 + Dex and use their bonus action for something like Step of the Wind/Patient Defense or and this is key Read the specific wording of Flurry of Blows compared to Martial Arts. Martial arts says: "When you use the Attack action with an unarmed
strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action." but Flurry of Blows says:"Immediately after you take the Attack action on your
turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action." It does not say it has to be a monk weapon. So you could shoot once, or twice if level 5+ then just spend a ki, walk over and unarmed attack twice with FoB.

With monk's massive levels of mobility as is, it is already a great chance you can reach someone to unarmed attack, and would be almost impossible for you to not be in range for a bow attack.
Is it worth it to give up 1 or maybe even 2 unarmed attack to do 1d4 extra damage with a bow shot? Maybe, but not very often.

Another issue with archery based monks is ASI, Monks need a great Dex, a pretty good if not great Wis, and a good Con, but unlike classes like Fighter or Rogue, Monks don't get any bonus ASI, so you could easily get to level 16 before ever being able to take an archery based feat, also monks do not get a fighting style without multi classing. If I was going to make an archer monk, it would only be 3 levels of monk and the rest would be battle master.

C: Level 6 features:

Your Kensei Weapon counts as magic for overcoming damage resistance. Cool. But how long before that becomes redundant by you just getting a magic weapon. That and any monk can still just unarmed attack for magic damage if the have to. It also depends on: A. how often your DM uses resistant monsters, B. how the magic item distribution is in the game, and C. Will what you attack with really be that much better than an unarmed strike in the first place, by now your unarmed strikes are 1d6, the most you are going to get out of a weapon is 1d10 and that is only 2 attacks a round, only 1 if you want the 2 ac, if you are at ranged, the most common magic item in the entire game is a +1 arrow, by now you should have enough around to shoot a bow against things you simply can't reach that are ALSO resistant to non-magic that it shouldn't matter.

other ability is 1ki for a mini-smite. In the long run not a great as just using that same ki for some of your other abilities, but on a crit i can see it being used against some targets. Not too cost effective but pretty good.

You also get to pick another Kensei Weapon, so if you found a magic Longsword but your Kensei weapon was a battleaxe you can pick it up now, but that also makes a bigger chance that your first level 6 ability gets redundant early.

D: Level 11 feature:

Can spend 1/2/3 ki to give your Kensei weapon a + 1/2/3, not bad at all BUT, it does not stack with any other +s on the weapon already.
If you have a +1 longsword, this ability is pointless unless you also carry a normal longsword you can pull to spend 3 ki to make it a +3.
Most magic weapons have a +1/2/3 already so are out, if you do find one of the ones that don't like the flame tongue, you have to have picked it as a Kensei weapon.
This feature also makes your level 6 ability redundant, again.
Again also, if you want that +2 ac, you will only be attacking once with your new magic enhanced weapon, but 2 maybe 3 times with your unarmed strike.
I can see this being good as a backup plan for if your weapons are taken, but then again, back to the idea that any monk can just attack unarmed for 1d8 by this point.
IF and that is a big if, you can use this ability on your main weapon that is already magic, great, you got very lucky.
For most of the time, this will not be getting used to its fullest at all.
Also, another Kensei Weapon to pick from, at this point you have taken a Longbow and whatever 1d8 versatile 1d10 weapon you wanted, at level 3, so the rest are just whatever you find that is magic, make it a Kensei weapon.

E. Level 17 Feature:

A free re-roll on a miss once a turn. Yes, that is some kind of nice. Had to wade through some blah features to get it but sweet. This is what kensei should have been like all the way through.


The Subclass is mediocre at best, but could have been so amazing if it was just tweeked a little bit.

There is no need for that many Kensei weapon choices.

Let them pick 1 weapon at level 3 and another at level 11.
Their level 6 ability makes whatever weapon they picked a +1 weapon
Level 11 makes it a +2, second weapon becomes +1
Level 17 makes it a +3 , second weapon becomes +2

Add in a clause of "as long as you have enough Ki points left in your pool = to the + you can have it is active" if you want.

OR

Let them pick unarmed strike as a Kensei weapon.

I love the concept of the weapon master monk, they just really fouled it up.


That being said:

Drunken Master is amazing and works great at all levels.
Open hand is also great. The Tranquility feature is nothing impressive but the rest is good.
4 Elements is balls.
Long Death is wonky but good.
Sun Soul is good flavor but blah mechanics.

[Palfatreos]

Grab lvl 1 cleric for bless or shield of faith making your even harder to take down :smalltongue:. As for the domain idk there such long list of cleric domain and idk which one you can take to stay AL legal.

[nickl_2000]

Grab lvl 1 cleric for bless or shield of faith making your even harder to take down :smalltongue:. As for the domain idk there such long list of cleric domain and idk which one you can take to stay AL legal.

Anything but Arcana, Death, or Order.

Grave would be a solid choice to keep people up and alive.
Knowledge gives you more out of combat utility.
Light gives you more reaction choices
Nature is kind of meh, but it can give you a decent ranged cantrip

I would probably go Knowledge, but it would depend on the PCs personality.

[Man_Over_Game]

One particular thing I think a lot of people miss is the fact that the Kensei isn't designed to be a specialist. It's a skirmisher.

What the entire thing is supposed to do is have you move in front of your team, shoot a bunch of bow shots for some decent damage while you maneuver around everything. Once bow shots are no longer an option (or you just got up to the ranged combatant you've been pelting for the last few rounds), you can afford to attack while increasing your AC, basically wearing a shield.

Don't forget that the Monk is capable of using Deflect Missiles. Combined, the Kensei is supposed to be an Anti-Archer skirmisher that does *fine* in melee combat. He doesn't have to do everything perfect. He's a better melee combatant than an archer, and he's a better ranged combatant than a warrior, and he's supposed to abuse those weaknesses in his enemy.

It's best if you have a well-fortified team, as a Kensei does best moving away from his party (to force the enemy team to split off to protect their back line).

In crowded areas where the Kensei cannot abuse his high mobility and ranged attacks, or against enemies where it's not ideal to kite or to engage, the Kensei will fall flat.

[PeteNutButter]

I think the negative feedback on the Kensei is entirely because the class feels like it’s fighting itself. All about the weapon but you have to unarmed strike to get one of the biggest benefits (+2 AC). It just seems frustrating.

Since you have access to a Flame Tongue already Kensei is definitely a strong option. The problem there is it makes the unarmed strike a bigger DPR loss than a normal longsword. You lose out on 9 damage if you punch instead of swinging that flaming beast.

If I were to do this, I’d rarely use the unarmed strike as part of my attack, and just take the mobile feat. You can grab the +2 AC when absolutely necessary, but two flame tongue attacks and a bonus action dodge will make your damage to defense ratio much better, at the cost of just 1 ki. Just doing that should make you outdamage most other monks as flame tongue damage does the heavy lifting, at least against fire susceptible enemies.

Your damage will be quite nice once you finally hit level 11, but the big boon is just having a ton of damage dice on your regular attacks. With that in mind consider using a flame tongue short sword on... any other monk subclass. It's just a solid weapon for DPR.

[GlenSmash!]

Kensei are great and Sharpen the Blade will work really well with a Flametongue as it does't have a bonus to hit.

[prototype00]

Ah, thanks all! Good advice, seems like the plan will work but I might want to tone down my expectations.