Can a buried animal dig itself out?

[Talakeal]

Question that might come up in an RPG I am running:

If a burrowing animal, like a gopher or something, is in a tunnel when it collapses, can they dig themself out or is the end for them?

Does it depend on the animal or the consistency of the substance it is buried in?

Thanks!

[Khedrac]

There are going to be lots of factors, thinking of a few to start with:

How much air is available in the collapsed tunnel to breathe?
Does the collapse "pin" the animal so it cannot move its digging limbs?
Is the collapsed material compactible - i.e. can the animal move material enough to create a space starting a new tunnel?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I agree with Khedrac. For semi-real animals, the availability of air is the big one, while room to move a bit is highly prefered. It's similar to getting out from under an avalanche.

I would probably make it a pretty easy skill check, with on a fail an added save on staying alive long enough for someone else to dig them out, maybe on a save a reroll on the digging as well, on the basis that a tunneler dying from tunneling is kind of lame.

For fantasy creatures that can dig without leaving tunnels there's no problem at all. (Edit: and for real ones like worms and even some types of small hairy moles as well, obviously.)

[halfeye]

All of the above, but also what caused the cave in, and is the animal alive or injured?

If the cave in was caused by the detonation of a nuke, or lava from an erupting volcano is coming down the tunnel, or the land is flooded with water, it's probably not survivable.

[Talakeal]

In this specific case it is a small dragon who lives in a large burrow in a sandy scrubland.

If the dragon is attacked in its lair it loses the ability to fly and is therefore somewhat vulnerable. The dragon can, however, dig and hold its breath for several hours.

I was wondering if it would be a viable strategy for the dragon to have a mechanism for collapsing its own lair and then waiting until the invaders had all suffocated to death before digging itself out.

But I am not sure of the physics behind this, if it is actually possible for a burrowing animal to dig itself out of a collapsed tunnel without a significant air pocket around it.

[Keltest]

In this specific case it is a small dragon who lives in a large burrow in a sandy scrubland.

If the dragon is attacked in its lair it loses the ability to fly and is therefore somewhat vulnerable. The dragon can, however, dig and hold its breath for several hours.

I was wondering if it would be a viable strategy for the dragon to have a mechanism for collapsing its own lair and then waiting until the invaders had all suffocated to death before digging itself out.

But I am not sure of the physics behind this, if it is actually possible for a burrowing animal to dig itself out of a collapsed tunnel without a significant air pocket around it.

It would need at least a little bit of room in order to be able to move its limbs, but theoretically if it wasn't in danger of suffocating and could normally burrow, it could eventually get out.

Having said that, it would take a heck of a long time. The sand or dirt or whatever its digging through doesn't have anywhere to go but where the dragon is, so while it might be able to dig out of a shallow pit, im skeptical that it could get out if it was buried deep enough underground that its roofs weren't collapsing to begin with.

Theres also the fact that its just buried anything that it had in its lair with it, such as its treasure hoard. Maybe he likes digging enough that he wouldn't care, but otherwise he's just destroyed his home out of spite.

[halfeye]

It would need at least a little bit of room in order to be able to move its limbs, but theoretically if it wasn't in danger of suffocating and could normally burrow, it could eventually get out.

Having said that, it would take a heck of a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark


They will also dig to escape as they can, when pressed, dig extremely quickly.

...

It can dig a yard of tunnel in about five minutes,[27] but otherwise moves fairly slowly.

[Keltest]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark

Dragons are not aardvarks and are much less suited for burrowing.

[halfeye]

Dragons are not aardvarks and are much less suited for burrowing.

Says who? :smalltongue:

Obviously dragons are not aardvarks, they are much bigger, so could potentially burrow faster.

[Keltest]

Says who? :smalltongue:

Obviously dragons are not aardvarks, they are much bigger, so could potentially burrow faster.

Deer are bigger than aardvarks too, do you expect them to burrow faster?

[halfeye]

Deer are bigger than aardvarks too, do you expect them to burrow faster?

Deer are not all bigger than Aardvarks. As well as that, dragons are tunnelling animals, which deer are not.

[Tyndmyr]

I was wondering if it would be a viable strategy for the dragon to have a mechanism for collapsing its own lair and then waiting until the invaders had all suffocated to death before digging itself out.

Animals usually do not destroy their own lair, but instead fight vigorously to defend it. It's not likely that they'd collapse it willingly, however it's possible that a tough fight might result in collapsing it accidentally, particularly if we've got a lot of sand, etc involved, which can be unstable. It might be amusing to give hp or similar to chunks of the structure, and if enough are damaged, trigger a collapse event.

[Lord Torath]

Dragons are not aardvarks and are much less suited for burrowing.Unless you're talking about Komodo or Bearded dragons (which, I'll concede, are less-suited for burrowing than aardvarks are), I'd recommend against assuming what the capabilities of dragons in Talakeal's game are. Some dragons are burrowers. Others, not so much. Arguing over what the abilities of an imaginary beast are is somewhat futile. Talakeal's dragons are exactly as suited to digging themselves out from cave-ins as Talakeal wants them to be.

[Talakeal]

Animals usually do not destroy their own lair, but instead fight vigorously to defend it. It's not likely that they'd collapse it willingly, however it's possible that a tough fight might result in collapsing it accidentally, particularly if we've got a lot of sand, etc involved, which can be unstable. It might be amusing to give hp or similar to chunks of the structure, and if enough are damaged, trigger a collapse event.

Its more of a last ditch escape strategy for being cornered in its lair by creatures that are capable of killing it, or in a similar position where it needs to escape but intends to come back and dig up its hoard at a later point.


Unless you're talking about Komodo or Bearded dragons (which, I'll concede, are less-suited for burrowing than aardvarks are), I'd recommend against assuming what the capabilities of dragons in Talakeal's game are. Some dragons are burrowers. Others, not so much. Arguing over what the abilities of an imaginary beast are is somewhat futile. Talakeal's dragons are exactly as suited to digging themselves out from cave-ins as Talakeal wants them to be.

I would say the dragon in question is about as well adapted for burrowing as a crocodile is for swimming; pretty well suited for the environment but not to the exclusion of all others.

[Algeh]

If it's a fairly complex lair structure, the dragon could also deliberately collapse part of it as part of an escape plan. This would work particularly well in a situation where that's a planned mode of defense so the structure was built with weaknesses in certain areas designed to trigger a partial collapse. Retreating from your main lair room down a tunnel and collapsing the main room behind you, then digging through from that tunnel to another tunnel you previously created nearby that leads to a different exit could be a pretty viable strategy for an intelligent burrow-dweller.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

At that point though: couldn't he put in the extra effort to try and only collapse the part behind him? Accidents happen, so the ability to dig itself out still helps, but if it works as planned the dragon is still mobile and ready to take on reinforcements.

[Scarlet Knight]

In this specific case it is a small dragon who lives in a large burrow in a sandy scrubland.

If the dragon is attacked in its lair it loses the ability to fly and is therefore somewhat vulnerable. The dragon can, however, dig and hold its breath for several hours.

I was wondering if it would be a viable strategy for the dragon to have a mechanism for collapsing its own lair and then waiting until the invaders had all suffocated to death before digging itself out.

But I am not sure of the physics behind this, if it is actually possible for a burrowing animal to dig itself out of a collapsed tunnel without a significant air pocket around it.

It makes sense. Dragons tunnel along, hit gas, say "What's that smell"? Sniff, ignition and BOOM! Cave in.

Can it get out after the blast? Dragons can do what you will. "Why do you think they're called 'Great Wyrms', eh?"

[farothel]

Actually most burrowing animals have two exits to their home, so if one collapses (or gets invaded by something) they can still get out at the other side. Since dragons are mostly somewhat to very intelligent, I would assume they would do this too. In that case they can fairly easy collapse one entrance where people have invaded, trapping them underneat all the rubble, while it can still leave through the other.

[Andor13]

As other have said, it depends. But if it's packed in too tightly to move, no.

Happens all the time with Gopher tortoises, unfortunately. When builders have them in the area they'll run a steam roller over the area and collapse the tunnels. The tortoises cannot dig their way out and slowly die. In theory they're a protected species, but Florida.

[LordEntrails]

There is only one thing that matters, Rule of Cool. Or to say it another way, what brings the most "fun" to the table? That's your answer, bar none.

[Keltest]

There is only one thing that matters, Rule of Cool. Or to say it another way, what brings the most "fun" to the table? That's your answer, bar none.

Having said that, rocks sand falls, everyone dies is the definitive example of a DM killing his players unfairly out of spite, so maybe show some restraint with this particular trap.

[Talakeal]

Having said that, rocks sand falls, everyone dies is the definitive example of a DM killing his players unfairly out of spite, so maybe show some restraint with this particular trap.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[DeTess]

Having said that, rocks sand falls, everyone dies is the definitive example of a DM killing his players unfairly out of spite, so maybe show some restraint with this particular trap.

Basically, if the dragon can dig itself out out, then chances are the players can come up with something to get them out as well (Dire badgers, for example, can be cast with summon monster 3 to dig them out).

[Scarlet Knight]

Well magic solves everything...IF... you can do the somatic component.

[Dodom]

If the dragon controls the collapse, then they could make sure the conditions don't doom them.
By example they could have hidden side chambers (like sealed off from the main tunnel, but the dragon knows where they are so they can push through the thin wall) that don't cave in, so they're guaranteed a bit of room to move around. If the enemy follows them in... is that a fire breathing dragon? Because fire would easily excuse there being no oxygen in the chamber for the enemy, and leave it up to that holding breath for hours power you mentioned.

[jayem]

Basically, if the dragon can dig itself out out, then chances are the players can come up with something to get them out as well (Dire badgers, for example, can be cast with summon monster 3 to dig them out).

That would be an advantage of the kamikaze route, first the attackers have to survive the initial impact (as does the dragon).
Then if it is an enveloping rockfall the summoned monster presumably needs space.

A dragon/foe buried everywhere would have force itself some space by sheer strength. Which would be easier if the soil is loose, not too deep and if the initial movement is pushing the soil into space (So from a press-up position rather than a starfish position or combat stance). Dragons being bigger and anticipating the rock fall would have a potential advantage.

[The_Ditto]

If it's a snake .. it probably has an advantage over others ..

LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr0UxM84AII

[Bohandas]

In this specific case it is a small dragon who lives in a large burrow in a sandy scrubland.

Aren't dragons in most editions (non-obligate-)lithovores? Because then, if nothing else, it could eat its way out enough to have room to move its limbs