About reaching Level 20 with a positive Level Adjustment

[StevenC21]

I am currently playing a Half-Giant Psionic Warrior. I have a Level Adjustment of +1. What happens when my ECL reaches level 20? Can I still get Level 20 in psionic warrior? Do I stop leveling entirely once the ECL hits 20 (so be stuck at level 19)? Do I start gaining epic levels at that point? If so, what if I was multiclassing?

Any help is appreciated, I cannot find this information in any books. A reference is also helpful.

[RoboEmperor]

You hit epic when your hd goes above 20, not your ECL. You can multiclass all you want as long as your hd is 21 you will be able to get epic feats.
You never stop gaining XP. Ever. So even if your ECL is 20 you will still gain levels as long as you don't kill anything too weak.

[StevenC21]

You hit epic when your hd goes above 20

What if I have racial hit dice?

Example:

I am a level 17 barbarian, with 17 d12 HD. I am of the StevenC21 race, which gives 3 racial hit dice. When I gain a level to hit barb 18, do I become an epic barbarian?

I fail to see how that would work. Can I gain the BAB of a barbarian alongside the epic attack bonus?

[StevenC21]

Alright, but how does that *work*? I am not yet level 20 in any class, so I cannot take any epic class levels. How can I be an epic character without epic levels?

For that matter, how can you have an epic character if you multiclass at all? I'm looking at the sections in both the 3.5 PHB and the 3e Epic Levels Handbook and I'm not seeing anything.

[Florian]

Speaking core only, you can only progress up to level 20. In this case, you would stop at class level 19 + 1 "level" of LA because there is no core table giving the EXP requirement for a total level of 21. This would be found in the epic rules, as well as how to progress classes after they hit all the levels in the PHB.

[RoboEmperor]

What if I have racial hit dice?

Example:

I am a level 17 barbarian, with 17 d12 HD. I am of the StevenC21 race, which gives 3 racial hit dice. When I gain a level to hit barb 18, do I become an epic barbarian?

I fail to see how that would work. Can I gain the BAB of a barbarian alongside the epic attack bonus?

Racial hit die counts. Racial hit die are class levels of a "monster class"

edit:Deleted my post because it had incorrect information.

Look at the epic rules
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

Epic Attack Bonus

Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

HD is synonymous with character level
So once you gain 20hd, you will never get BAB ever again. Only Epic BAB.

Now with Racial hit die it gets screwy because if you look at monster stat blocks they gain BAB past 20hd and don't get epic BAB. I will still say that a 20+hd creature cannot gain BAB from class level, only epic BAB.

[StevenC21]

Well, Epic is core in 3.5, the rules are in the DMG.

I'll look at them again but I don't see any rules for that kind of thing, which is moderately frustrating. I know that this usually won't matter, but I sometimes make NPC characters that are high levelled, and at some point they have to go epic. I usually use Prestige Classes so knowing epic rules for multiclassing is very, very important.

Edit: I wrote this before I saw the above comment. Ignore me.

[Florian]

Anything that will bring the total up over 20 HD will require the use of epic, one way or the other.

HD count on a 1to1 basis, so with 3HD and 17 levels of a class, no additional LA, here you reach epic. You will still use the regular advancement table for the class until you reach 3HD and 20 levels, then switch to epic.

Edit: NPC are a more tricky topic. As Robo already mentioned, due to HD inflation, there's a lot in the Monster Manuals/Bestiaries that don't mesh well with the PHB rules.

[Uncle Pine]

From the glossaries of the Player's Handbook and Monster Manual:

Hit Die: In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.

Level Adjustment: Certain monsters can used as the basis for interesting, viable player characters. These creatures have a level adjustment entry, which is a number that is added to the creature's total Hit Dice to arrive at its effective character level. A creature with multiple special abilities is more powerful as a player character than its Hit Dice alone would indicate. For example, a drow elf has spell resistance, bonuses to its ability scores, and spell-like abilities. Its level adjustment of +2 indicates that a 1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character.
Some creatures' level adjustment entries include the word "(cohort)." Although these creatures may be problematic as PCs, they make good companions for a character who has taken the Leadership feat. Some other creatures aren't intended for use as PCs or cohorts but can become companions through the use of the Improved Familiar feat. In these cases, the level adjustment entry is a dash followed by the words "(Improved Familiar)."
Level adjustment is not the same thing as an adjustment to a creature's Challenge Rating because of some special qualities it possesses. Challenge Rating reflects how difficult an opponent is to fight in a limited number of encounters. Level adjustment shows how powerful a creature is as a player character or cohort in campaign play. For instance, a drow receives a +1 adjustment to its Challenge Rating to account for its special abilities, indicating that it's tougher in a fight than its Hit Dice would suggest, but its level adjustment is +2 to balance its abilities over long-term play.

Effective Character Level (ECL): This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an ECL of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a minotaur has 6 HD and a +2 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of an 8th-level character.
HD = class levels + racial HD = character level
LA = a certain number
ECL = HD + LA


I am currently playing a Half-Giant Psionic Warrior. I have a Level Adjustment of +1. What happens when my ECL reaches level 20?
You will be a 19th level Psychic Warrior. You will have 19 HD (all from class levels) and an ECL of 20. You will need to gain 20,000 xp to level up. With less than 21 HD, you still aren't an epic character.


Can I still get Level 20 in psionic warrior?
Yes.
You will be a 20th level Psychic Warrior. You will have 20 HD (all from class levels) and an ECL of 21. You will need to gain 21,000 xp to level up. With less than 21 HD, you still aren't an epic character.


Do I stop leveling entirely once the ECL hits 20 (so be stuck at level 19)?
No, you keep leveling at the normal rate (see Table 1-2 of the Epic Level Handbook, or ELH).


Do I start gaining epic levels at that point?
If you have more than 21 HD and level up in any class you gain epic attack bonus and epic save bonus in place of the ones you'd normally gain (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)).
If you have 20 levels in a base class (or 10 in a prestige class) you can keep gaining levels in the epic variant of that class. As above, you gain epic attack bonus and epic save bonus as normal for epic characters.


If so, what if I was multiclassing?

Adding a Second Class
When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement. The epic character gains all the 1st-level class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate type. In addition, the character gets the usual skill points from the new class. Just as with standard multiclassing, adding the second class does not confer some of the benefits for a 1st-level character, including maximum hit points from the first Hit Die, quadruple the per-level skill points, starting equipment, starting gold, or an animal companion. An epic character does not gain the base attack bonuses and base save bonuses normally gained when adding a second class. Instead, an epic character uses the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus progression shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses.


What if I have racial hit dice?
It usually works the same as multiclassing: a minotaur Psychic Warrior 12 has 6 racial HD, 12 class levels, and a +2 LA. It's an 18th level character with an ECL of 20. It needs to gain 20,000 xp to level up, is not an epic character and has a BAB of +15 (6 from its racial HD, 9 from class levels).
A minotaur Psychic Warrior 14 has 6 racial HD, 14 class levels, and a +2 LA. It's a 20th level character with an ECL of 22. It needs to gain 22,000 xp to level up, is not an epic character and has a BAB of +16 (6 from its racial HD, 10 from class levels). Normally reaching Psychic Warrior 15 would improve its BAB by +1, but since this would be the minotaur's 21st HD it follows the epic attack bonus table, which gives +0 BAB at this level. The same goes for save bonuses.
The only exception is if you have more than 20 racial HD: a great wyrm black dragon has 37 HD and a BAB of +37. Racial HD above 20 don't automatically follow the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus, so the dragon gets full BAB for all of its dragon HD. However, if it were to gain a class level on top of its racial HD, it would gain the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus in place of those of the class it leveled in.


Example:

I am a level 17 barbarian, with 17 d12 HD. I am of the StevenC21 race, which gives 3 racial hit dice. When I gain a level to hit barb 18, do I become an epic barbarian?

I fail to see how that would work. Can I gain the BAB of a barbarian alongside the epic attack bonus?
No and no. An "epic barbarian" is someone with at least 21 Barbarian levels, whereas an "epic" StevenC21 Barbarian is someone with at least 21 HD (whether racial or class). In this example, upon reaching Barbarian 18 you gain +0 BAB instead of the usual +1 for non-epic characters leveling in the Barbarian class.


Alright, but how does that *work*? I am not yet level 20 in any class, so I cannot take any epic class levels. How can I be an epic character without epic levels?

For that matter, how can you have an epic character if you multiclass at all? I'm looking at the sections in both the 3.5 PHB and the 3e Epic Levels Handbook and I'm not seeing anything.
An epic character is anyone with at least 21 HD. Epic levels are all those above 21. Epic (base) classes are available to those with at least 20 levels in a single base class. These three statements don't contradict each other.
As for multiclassing, look above.

Do note that a great primer on concepts such as ECL and racial HD can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

[reddir]

{explanation}

This is a great explanation. You laid out the concepts clearly and showed how they work individually and in combination, as well as showing the result of these interactions at all the various levels we’d like to understand.

Sincerely, Thank You. What was muddy and vague now seems quite clear to me.

P.S. Are you an educator in some form? Teaching, training, textbooks, documentation...?

[ShurikVch]

You hit epic when your hd goes above 20, not your ECL.
With less than 21 HD, you still aren't an epic character.Any quotes?
I was always sure: for PC and their cohorts, it's ECL (i. e. PC with LA +20 would be [epic] from the very 1st level)



Now with Racial hit die it gets screwy because if you look at monster stat blocks they gain BAB past 20hd and don't get epic BAB. I will still say that a 20+hd creature cannot gain BAB from class level, only epic BAB.IMHO, monstrous HD should count as a well-know exception to the rule: Monster Manual 3.5 was printed after the Epic Level Handbook
(and Dungeon Master's Guide have rules for Epic Characters)

[Uncle Pine]

P.S. Are you an educator in some form? Teaching, training, textbooks, documentation...?
No, but I take the question as a kind compliment. I'm just one of those rule-lawyery DMs like many others you'll find around here.


Any quotes?
I was always sure: for PC and their cohorts, it's ECL (i. e. PC with LA +20 would be [epic] from the very 1st level)


Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

Hit Die: In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.

Effective Character Level (ECL): This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an ECL of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a minotaur has 6 HD and a +2 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of an 8th-level character.
The definition of epic characters is tied to their character level: you're epic if your character level is 21st or higher. ECL is also tied to the character level, but in a different way (ECL = character level + LA). Therefore, something like LA +20 alone isn't necessarily enough to make a PC or cohort "epic" (although they'd follow certain epic rules to determine things like xp necessary to level up or WBL).

[ShurikVch]

The definition of epic characters is tied to their character level: you're epic if your character level is 21st or higher. ECL is also tied to the character level, but in a different way (ECL = character level + LA). Therefore, something like LA +20 alone isn't necessarily enough to make a PC or cohort "epic" (although they'd follow certain epic rules to determine things like xp necessary to level up or WBL).:smallconfused: And what's about the monstrous classes?
I mean - some of them include "LA levels"
(Sometimes, even, nothing but "LA levels" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a))
Are they don't count?..

I was pretty sure "Epic" is defined by Table 1–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, which lists XP number, but not HD

[Uncle Pine]

:smallconfused: And what's about the monstrous classes?
I mean - some of them include "LA levels"
(Sometimes, even, nothing but "LA levels" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a))
Are they don't count?..

I was pretty sure "Epic" is defined by Table 1–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, which lists XP number, but not HD
If I remember correctly there are at least a couple of definitions of monstrous classes (Savage Species has its own, but more have been introduced in online articles over time) that vary slightly on how they are applied, but as far as the ones in the linked article go:

General Rules for Template Classes
[...]
Each level in a template class increases the character's level adjustment by +1, just as would a level of any other character class.
[...]
Unlike standard character classes (and the "monster classes" from Savage Species), most template classes do not increase Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, or skill points with level. They also do not affect when a character acquires feats, since feat acquisition is based on HD, not ECL. However, some of these aspects of the character can be affected indirectly by alterations in Hit Die type, ability score changes, special attacks or qualities, bonus feats, and so on.
This tells us a few things:

"Template class" levels increase a character's level adjustment, not class levels
Unlike standard class levels, most levels in template classes do not increase Hit Dice (aka character level)
As per the underlined part, the author of the article thought leveling up in any class (fighter, wizard, adept) increased your LA :smallconfused:

The third bullet point appears to be dysfunctional (I'll check later the handbook to see if it's already been noted), but the other two points are coherent with the main goal of template classes: for a character who takes all of the levels in one of them to be mechanically identical to one that simply takes the whole template as presented in the MM. A vampire Fighter 4 is a 4th level character with 4 HD, LA +8 and an ECL of 12, as is a Fighter 4/Vampire 8.

[Remuko]

I think/thought the same as ShurikVch. Even the example Mind Flayer Paragon has epic feats, which the template doesnt grant, and it doesnt have enough HD to be epic, yet it apparently qualifies for epic (which would make sense as the LA of the Mind Flayer and the Paragon Template should put it above ECL 21).

[ShurikVch]

There is a thing:
MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rdlevel blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.
The Monster Manual has level adjustments for many monsters appropriate for use as characters. Use these modifiers to estimate appropriate modifiers for other nonstandard PC races that you might choose to include.

[Uncle Pine]

I think/thought the same as ShurikVch. Even the example Mind Flayer Paragon has epic feats, which the template doesnt grant, and it doesnt have enough HD to be epic, yet it apparently qualifies for epic (which would make sense as the LA of the Mind Flayer and the Paragon Template should put it above ECL 21).
Do note the example paragon creature also has 14 total feats when it should only have 5. The whole statblock is likely dysfunctional.


There is a thing:
There's also this thing:

Behind the curtain: a limit to attacks and saves

Why don't base attack bonus and base save bonus increase after 20th level? Ultimately, these are game play issues.
If base attack bonuses continued to increase, every character would eventually have so many attacks per round that the game would slow to a crawl. What's worse, only the first few attacks would be significant, because the dropoff in attack bonuses means that later attacks have almost no chance to hit. For this reason, the rules establish a cap on a character's base attack bonus, because the base attack bonus determines the number of attacks per round a character can make. After 20th level, your base attack bonus never improves. You gain epic bonuses and other bonuses on your attack roll, but these don't ever increase your base attack bonus and thus never grant you additional attacks.
This limit doesn't apply to the base attack bonus derived strictly from a monster's Hit Dice. For instance, a titan with 21 HD using the advancement rules in the Monster Manual has a base attack bonus of +21. Thus, another cap exists: A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option.

[Remuko]

There is a thing:

I thought as much. Yeah ECL does factor in. Good find.

[Bronk]

So, all that said, you can request that your DM allow you to use the LA buyoff rules found here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm