Does the Catfolk race [3.5e RotW] deserve its +1 LA?

[Kuro_Neko]

Does the Catfolk race really deserve that +1 LA? If not what can we do to make it deserve it?

This is the 3.5e Catfolk race from Races of the Wild.

As listed they have:
• +4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.
• A base land speed of 40 feet.
• Low-Light Vision: see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. Retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks.
• +1 natural armor bonus.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Feline.

As changes/additions I'm thinking about some combination of:
• Ditch the +2 Cha and possibly move it to Dex (for a total of +6 dex). Cats are not in my experience particularly charming (is that +2 supposed to be a cuteness factor or something?), they are rather dexterous though. The Dex and the natural armor are really the only thing the race has going for it, and maybe +10 to land speed which is nice but not amazing.
• Speaking of the natural armor, that doesn't really scream 'cat' to me, maybe change it to a +1 dodge bonus?
• Add a pair of claws they can use as natural weapons. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage.
• Maybe a secondary bite attack as well at 1d3 points of damage. Might be too powerful? Hands are usually going to be occupied with actual weapons, but the mouth is usually free.
• Some free racial feats, nothing too amazing, some/all of:
- Run (5x speed on run action instead of 4x). Too much on top of the existing land speed increase?
- Agile Athlete (use dex mod instead of str for jump and climb). Makes sense for a race that's all about dex.
- Leap of the Heavens (don't double the DC's for standing jumps, and get +5 competence bonus on running jumps). Ever see a cat jump four times its height from a standing start? I have.
- Maybe Catfolk Pounce? Free pounce might be too much, but that version only works on flat-footed targets.
• Changing the Low-light vision to an Improved low-light vision (3x human distance rather than 2x)
• No penalties to listen checks while asleep.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting all of the above, just some combination thereof. Other than the stat changes, the natural attacks, and the pounce this stuff is pretty situational anyway.

Comments? Suggestions?

[Kaptin Keen]

They obviously deserve +1 LA. They have both natural armor and massive stat bonuses.

[Kuro_Neko]

They obviously deserve +1 LA. They have both natural armor and massive stat bonuses.

They definitely don't rate a +0 LA as written, but I'm not sure if just the stat boost and one point of natural armor is worth the +1 LA.

Contrast them with the draconic template for example:
+1 natural armor
two claw natural weapons at 1d3
low-light vision
60 ft darkvision
+2 dex, +2 con, +2 cha
+2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Spot checks
+4 racial bonus on saves against magic sleep effects and paralysis

All for the same +1 LA.

[Kaptin Keen]

They definitely don't rate a +0 LA as written, but I'm not sure if just the stat boost and one point of natural armor is worth the +1 LA.

Contrast them with the draconic template for example:
+1 natural armor
two claw natural weapons at 1d3
low-light vision
60 ft darkvision
+2 dex, +2 con, +2 cha
+2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Spot checks
+4 racial bonus on saves against magic sleep effects and paralysis

All for the same +1 LA.

Yes. The problem is with the template, which clearly requires more than a +1.

It's really very simple: Take an elf. Is catfolk substantially stronger than an elf? Then, it's +1.

So now you have a basis for +1: It's stronger than a basic PHB player race, such as an elf. An example is your catfolk. Now let's look at your draconian template. Is it substantially stronger than a catfolk? Yes, it is. Well then, it's definitely a +2 or more likely a +3.

The people who make the books are generally wildly, inexplicably inept. They have no idea what they're doing. So you can't use one of their glaring errors to justify another of their glaring errors.

[DeTess]

Well, then, let's do a quick comparison between a draconic human and a catfolk.




Draconic Human
Catflok


net attribute bonus
+6
+6


Natural armor
+1
+1


Vision
Low-light and darkvision
low-light vision


Racial skills
+2 bonus to two skills
+2 bonus to two skills


land speed
30 feet
40 feet


Natural weapons
2 1d3 claws
-


bonus feats
1
-


bonus skill points
1
-



As you can see, the draconic human get darkvision, an additional bonus feat, an additional skill point and the claw attacks. On the other hand, the catflok gets +10 feet movement.
The claw attacks are just fluff,a s they'll only rarely see play, but I don't think there's anything wrong with giving catfolk 1d3 claws as well. I'd personally say that +10 feet movement is worth mroe than darkvision, which leaves the skill point and bonus feat. Personally, If I wanted to give the catfolk a small buff I'd give them dodge and maybe mobility as bonus feats. Not the best of feats, but they are prerequisites for a lot of good stuff, and fit the catfolk theme.

I disagree with captain keen that the draconic template needs more than 1 LA, btw. It competes directly with class levels, and I definitely don't think the draconic template is equivalent to two levels in a martial initiator, or even Barbarian.

Edit: I don't think Catfolk necessarily need a buff though. They're on the weaker end of +1LA, and the draconic template is a bit on the stronger end, but they're both in the right LA bracket.

[Khedrac]

Actually Draconic template and Catfolk are closer in power than people seem to be suggesting:

As listed they have:
catfolk - +4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.
draconic - +2 dex, +2 con, +2 cha
Both give 6 points of stats, and +4 to a stat is actually very powerful at the medium to lower point buy level so which +con is great I would consider these equal.

both - low light vision
both - +1 natural armor bonus

catfolk - +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks.
draconic - +2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Spot checks
I prefer the catfolk skills but that is personal - so far so equal in power.

So what is left?
Catfolk:
- A base land speed of 40 feet.
- extra language: Feline.
Draconic:
+1 natural armor
two claw natural weapons at 1d3
60 ft darkvision
+4 racial bonus on saves against magic sleep effects and paralysis

+1 natural armor is nice for melee types, but it is actually pretty weak in the overall scheme of things. The best part is that most natural armor boosts will actually stack with it.
natural claw attacks is nearly useless - mainly it allows disarmed malees to threaten.
Extra language is even more useless.

The real comparison is 10 base movement (with commensurate effects on jump) against darkvision, the natural armor and the save v sleep.

And personally I would usually take the movement - a difference in movement speeds is nearly always a huge boost. For casters it often means not getting hit - you can out-move enemy melees when in combat. For melees it means the reverse - successfully attacking enemy squishies who thought themselves out of range.

In short these are pretty close to the same power for +1LA. I would probably give the edge in power to draconic, but personally I would probably prefer catfolk unless con was critical (it's always good).

[Kaptin Keen]

Yea yea ... when I looked it over, I arrived at much the same conclusion. I still maintain Draconic should be +2, but clearly not +3.

Why +2? Because versatility. Everything counts, and anyways it's abundantly clear that some stats are considered more OP than others - specifically, strength and toughness. For whatever absurd reason, but there it is.

[stack]

Keep in mind that draconic is in addition to whatever the base has, whereas catfolk is a race. The base can effect the relative value of the template (redundant darkvision, for example).

[gkathellar]

As is routinely the case for LA, their features are not worth a +1 and slightly too good for a +0. If a player is desperate to use one, give them a free Hit Die so that they're not too far behind on the hit-point curve, or just use this (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11361.msg191808#msg191808).

[Kaptin Keen]

As is routinely the case for LA, their features are not worth a +1 and slightly too good for a +0. If a player is desperate to use one, give them a free Hit Die so that they're not too far behind on the hit-point curve, or just use this (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11361.msg191808#msg191808).

Not what I do.

What I do, I say 'You wanna play a cat? How about we refluff an elf, and you use those stats.' Bam. Problem solved, moving right along.

[Bronk]

Does the Catfolk race really deserve that +1 LA? If not what can we do to make it deserve it?

I think that the ability bonuses by themselves warrant the +1 to LA, and the speed and natural armor bumps are going above and beyond. On top of that, the speed bonus grants a +4 bonus to jump checks.

Were it up to me, though, I'd definitely add claw attacks. The times that I've seen this race played the players just assumed they had claws for thematic reasons, so it might as well be made official. If that's too much for a +1 LA, just remove the natural armor bonus.

[Troacctid]

I think you could easily bring it down to +0 LA by reducing the ability score modifiers. Make it +2 Dex, -2 Wis and you're back on par just like that.

[AvatarVecna]

If Catfolk's benefits outweighed the LA cost, it would get mentioned in charop more. Any LA +0 race that comes up in charop does so because it's worth taking instead of Human (the default, for good reason) under at least some circumstances. There's a reason humans and elves and gnomes and goliaths come up with relative frequency (the latter despite its LA) while dwarves and half-orcs and half-elves waste away in obscurity. I'm sure the LA Assignment threads will eventually reach RotW.

[Troacctid]

Here's a quick savage progression for the catfolk, in case you can't wait for the LA assignment thread.

Catfolk Base Racial Features

All of the following are base racial abilities for the catfolk.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Wis

Size: Catfolk are Medium size.

Speed: Catfolk base land speed is 40 feet.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): Catfolk can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Racial Skills: Catfolk have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks.

Automatic Languages: Common, Feline. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Halfling, Sylvan.

Catfolk Racial Class Features



Level

Special



1st
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Wis, natural armor +1


All of the following are class features of the catfolk racial class.

Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted.

Natural Armor: At 1st level, the catfolk's natural armor bonus increases by 1.

[Cosi]

The Catfolk is more powerful than LA +0 races, but even a single point of LA is a very large cost. Most of the LA +1 races fall into a hole in the system, offering benefits that are too large for +0 LA but not worth it at +1 LA.

[King of Nowhere]

how about having one-half level adjustment? As in, if you have a LA +1, you are supposed to take the same xp as the party when you are a level lower, and 20% less if you are the same level. With LA +1/2 you take 10% more xp if you are down one level, and 10% less if you are the same level.
half level adjustments are not supported by any raw and they make things more messy, but they work really well if you want to give a race some intermediate level of power

[Cosi]

I think it's probably better to do something like have the race take your feat slot. Screwing around with XP rates is not super great for the game, generally.

[HouseRules]

I think it's probably better to do something like have the race take your feat slot. Screwing around with XP rates is not super great for the game, generally.

How many? If 1 feat, players would just take that feat at level 1. If 2 feats, then they would need to take the second at level 2. Darkvision and Low-Light Vision are 2nd level spells, so it it could be a feat, it should be a level 5 (pf) or (3e) feat.

I notice a thread 8 years ago about this same topic. Catfolk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187140-catfolk-3-5) before the sub-forums were created for the different editions of the game?

[Maat Mons]

I think you could easily bring it down to +0 LA by reducing the ability score modifiers. Make it +2 Dex, -2 Wis and you're back on par just like that.

The Catfolk is more powerful than LA +0 races, but even a single point of LA is a very large cost. Most of the LA +1 races fall into a hole in the system, offering benefits that are too large for +0 LA but not worth it at +1 LA.

Gonna have to chime in with these two. LA was a bad mechanic.

On the subject of +2 dex/-2 wis, I do feel it ties in nicely with the phrase "curiosity killed the cat." However, I feel the catfolk would need a bonus to listen and spot that not only negates this penalty, but makes them overall better at those skills than a typical human.

For anything that is "too good" for a +0 LA, but to thematic to ditch, I propose optional feats that only catfolk can take. For example, if claws are seen to occupy an awkward position of being a substantle benefit to some, but completely useless to others, the could a 1st-level-only catfolk feat to gain claw attacks. That way, those who don't want that feature won't be charged for it, but it will still be an option.

[Bronk]

Here's a quick savage progression for the catfolk, in case you can't wait for the LA assignment thread.

Catfolk Base Racial Features

All of the following are base racial abilities for the catfolk.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Wis

Size: Catfolk are Medium size.

Speed: Catfolk base land speed is 40 feet.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): Catfolk can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Racial Skills: Catfolk have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks.

Automatic Languages: Common, Feline. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Halfling, Sylvan.

Catfolk Racial Class Features



Level

Special



1st
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Wis, natural armor +1


All of the following are class features of the catfolk racial class.

Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted.

Natural Armor: At 1st level, the catfolk's natural armor bonus increases by 1.

I think this needs at least one HD to be viable at first level... although at that point, it's just a RHD you can't get rid of...

[Troacctid]

I think this needs at least one HD to be viable at first level... although at that point, it's just a RHD you can't get rid of...
The way savage progressions work, you can wait as long as you want to take the racial level, or choose not to take it at all.

[Bronk]

The way savage progressions work, you can wait as long as you want to take the racial level, or choose not to take it at all.

Nifty, I had definitely forgotten that! I don't use them often, sorry about that!

[Kuro_Neko]

Well, then, let's do a quick comparison between a draconic human and a catfolk.

I'd actually forgotten about the fact that it's a template means the original race's abilities are stacked on there as well.


Edit: I don't think Catfolk necessarily need a buff though. They're on the weaker end of +1LA, and the draconic template is a bit on the stronger end, but they're both in the right LA bracket.

But you wouldn't necessarily object? =^_^=


Actually Draconic template and Catfolk are closer in power than people seem to be suggesting:

*snip*

The real comparison is 10 base movement (with commensurate effects on jump) against darkvision, the natural armor and the save v sleep.

And personally I would usually take the movement - a difference in movement speeds is nearly always a huge boost. For casters it often means not getting hit - you can out-move enemy melees when in combat. For melees it means the reverse - successfully attacking enemy squishies who thought themselves out of range.

In short these are pretty close to the same power for +1LA. I would probably give the edge in power to draconic, but personally I would probably prefer catfolk unless con was critical (it's always good).

You actually listed the natural armor entry twice for the Draconic. But as mentioned, you get to add the base race's abilities in there as well. Also, I'd take the darkvision every time. Bonuses to land speed are pretty easy to get, hell, there's a trait that gives you +10 land speed. But without darkvision, all an enemy rogue with darkvision has to do is take out your light source and suddenly it's total concealment and sneak attacks forever.


As is routinely the case for LA, their features are not worth a +1 and slightly too good for a +0. If a player is desperate to use one, give them a free Hit Die so that they're not too far behind on the hit-point curve, or just use this.

That's a possible idea, the hit die that is, the other isn't really what I had in mind.


I think that the ability bonuses by themselves warrant the +1 to LA, and the speed and natural armor bumps are also bonuses. On top of that, the speed bonus grants a +4 bonus to jump checks.

Were it up to me, though, I'd definitely add claw attacks. The times that I've seen this race played the players just assumed they had claws for thematic reasons, so it might as well be made official. If that's too much for a +1 LA, just remove the natural armor bonus.

1d3 claws would hardly break the bank, especially as they'd be rarely used. They're on the list as you said for thematic reasons as much as anything else.


I think you could easily bring it down to +0 LA by reducing the ability score modifiers. Make it +2 Dex, -2 Wis and you're back on par just like that.

That's true and could be doable absent any other option, but I'd rather pay the LA and get a bit more oomph out of it.


Would the 1d3 claws and granting catfolk pounce as a free feat be too much you think? Unrestricted pounce definitely would be, but catfolk pounce is flat-footed targets only. And wouldn't really be useful until at least level 6 anyway, since you need multiple attacks to bother with it. Alternately, if catfolk pounce is too powerful, perhaps a combo of Leap of the Heavens (don't double the DC's for standing jumps, and get +5 competence bonus on running jumps) and Agile Athlete (use dex mod instead of str for jump and climb)? Both very cat like and also very situational. The other possibility is the previously suggested Dodge and Mobility as free feats. Oh, speaking of dodge, I would propose downgrading the natural armor bonus to a dodge bonus, more thematic.

The one other idea I came up with was an improved low-light vision, 3x human rather than 2x. I'm just not sure how to value that. I can't recall any situation I was in that would have benefited from extra low-light range.

[DeTess]

But you wouldn't necessarily object? =^_^=

Oh no, I don't. It's just that it's not the thing most in need of a buff in 3.5e in my opinion.




Would the 1d3 claws and granting catfolk pounce as a free feat be too much you think? Unrestricted pounce definitely would be, but catfolk pounce is flat-footed targets only. And wouldn't really be useful until at least level 6 anyway, since you need multiple attacks to bother with it.

I don't think giving them catfolk pounce or even regular pounce as a bonus feature would be too much, but I wouldn't give them both claws and the pounce, because otherwise you could get some oddly powerful low-level builds (a full attack sequence with their natural weapons would involve both claws irrespective of BaB without the penalty twf would give). I think giving them regular pounce would be pushing it, but you'd get the same benefit from one level in Barbarian with the right ACF, so your catfolk wouldn't be an obvious pick for charger builds, but they would be a contender.

[Kuro_Neko]

I don't think giving them catfolk pounce or even regular pounce as a bonus feature would be too much, but I wouldn't give them both claws and the pounce, because otherwise you could get some oddly powerful low-level builds (a full attack sequence with their natural weapons would involve both claws irrespective of BaB without the penalty twf would give). I think giving them regular pounce would be pushing it, but you'd get the same benefit from one level in Barbarian with the right ACF, so your catfolk wouldn't be an obvious pick for charger builds, but they would be a contender.

It's true that giving them claws technically gives them multiple attacks at level 1, but that's a total of two attacks doing 1d3 each. Be better off just buying a basic longsword and regular charging for 1d8. The claws are mostly fluff, really only useful for threatening nearby squares regardless of whether you're holding a weapon or not. The most useful use-case for that would be allowing a ranged fighter to threaten while holding their ranged weapon. But a bow blade or crossbow bayonet from Complete Scoundrel does the same.

edit:
Unless I'm not understanding something obvious, I've never really built a charger, not really my play style.

edit 2:
In case it's not clear, I'm not trying to make the race more powerful, just more mechanically thematic. Hence downgrading natural armor to dodge bonus, and the preference for Agile Athlete and Leap of the Heavens over Dodge and Mobility, as while the latter is thematic (and more useful in combat), I feel the former is more thematic.

edit 3:
So on further thought, I'm considering this:
Alterations:
+1 natural armor changed to +1 dodge bonus

Additional Benefits:
two primary natural weapon claws at 1d3
five free feats: Catfolk Pounce, Improved Low-light Vision, Agile Athlete, Leap of the Heavens, and Run

Additional detriments:
Lose proficiency in heavy armor (due to the presence of a tail not working with heavier full-cover armors)
No foot slot items that aren't anklets or greaves (due to the presence of digitigrade feet)
-2 to saves vs sonic attacks (due to sensitive hearing)

Opinions? Five free feats might seem like a lot, but only one of them is a feat anyone would actually spend a feat slot on.