Has anyone done or seen a list for spells eligible for Brew Potions?

[Arkhios]

Hi,

What it says in the title. I'm thinking of taking the Brew Potions as one of my feats, and I'm using PHB (3.5) only.

I was wondering if someone has done something like this before. It's been 16 years since 3.5 was released so I think it's very likely, I just couldn't find any.

Thanks for help!

[HouseRules]

Any single target spell with level 0-4 are valid.

[Powerdork]

Any single target spell with level 0-4 are valid.

It's not even any single-target spell, and it's not levels 0-4.


BREW POTION [ITEM CREATION]
You can create potions, which carry spells within themselves. See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for rules on potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half this base price.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

A potion of haste is valid, and even if it's inefficient for all the targets lost, it's still really good.

I'm going to compile the lists for each class, starting with sorcerer/wizard. What class are you considering, though, Arkhios?

[Malphegor]

wait. from a re-read of that it looks like a potion of fireball is possible, it’ll just only affect the imbiber. That’s fun. If it wasn’t for the spell level limit it’d be a must have tbh

[Powerdork]

wait. from a re-read of that it looks like a potion of fireball is possible, it’ll just only affect the imbiber. That’s fun. If it wasn’t for the spell level limit it’d be a must have tbh

Fireball doesn't have a Target/Targets line, it has an Area line, disqualifying it. Compare haste, which does have Targets and still defines the space they can occupy (if only by imposing a maximum distance between any two targets).

[Segev]

IS there a reason you can't make one-shot wondrous items, instead? I have never once seen Brew Potion be as useful as Craft Wondrous Item in a game, so I am warning you against picking it up on that basis.

[Hackulator]

wait. from a re-read of that it looks like a potion of fireball is possible, it’ll just only affect the imbiber. That’s fun. If it wasn’t for the spell level limit it’d be a must have tbh

Not fireball for the aforementioned reason of it being an area as opposed to targeted spell. However, RAW you could definitely brew up something like, say, a potion of magic missile which would blast whoever drank it.

[Powerdork]

IS there a reason you can't make one-shot wondrous items, instead? I have never once seen Brew Potion be as useful as Craft Wondrous Item in a game, so I am warning you against picking it up on that basis.

Potions always take 8 hours to brew, regardless of price. If moderate time pressure arises, Brew Potion has its uses.

[Segev]

Potions always take 8 hours to brew, regardless of price. If moderate time pressure arises, Brew Potion has its uses.

Eh, I suppose if you're pumping up the caster level, it might be worth it, then, to get a 20th CL greater magic weapon potion in 1 day rather than 3. But that's so incredibly niche that I don't know how you'd make it worth a Feat in a build.

[Arkhios]

It's not even any single-target spell, and it's not levels 0-4.



A potion of haste is valid, and even if it's inefficient for all the targets lost, it's still really good.

I'm going to compile the lists for each class, starting with sorcerer/wizard. What class are you considering, though, Arkhios?

I'm planning to take a 5-level-"dip" in wizard (non-specialist) myself, but the group has a full cleric and a full bard, and the way I read it, I could co-operate with other spellcasters when creating magic items — including consumables.


IS there a reason you can't make one-shot wondrous items, instead? I have never once seen Brew Potion be as useful as Craft Wondrous Item in a game, so I am warning you against picking it up on that basis.
While I might take Craft Wondrous Items as well, in my experience, very few pre-written adventures actually allow long periods of downtime between "railroad from previous to next act". Crafting consumables is a lot less time-consuming than crafting permanent items. Even if I could make one-shot Wondrous Items, I feel that they'd be waste of time, xp, and other resources. You can make Scrolls and Potions much faster than other items.

[Segev]

I'm planning to take a 5-level-"dip" in wizard (non-specialist) myself, but the group has a full cleric and a full bard, and the way I read it, I could co-operate with other spellcasters when creating magic items — including consumables.


While I might take Craft Wondrous Items as well, in my experience, very few pre-written adventures actually allow long periods of downtime between "railroad from previous to next act". Crafting consumables is a lot less time-consuming than crafting permanent items. Even if I could make one-shot Wondrous Items, I feel that they'd be waste of time, xp, and other resources.

One-shot wondrous items cost the same as potions to create. As long as you're not making an item with a CL higher than 6, both the wondrous item and the potion take the same amount of time to make, too. (As has been pointed out, if you push the CL high enough to get over 1000 gp, you have to work a 2nd or even 3rd day on the wondrous item, but still only one day on the potion.)

[Arkhios]

One-shot wondrous items cost the same as potions to create. As long as you're not making an item with a CL higher than 6, both the wondrous item and the potion take the same amount of time to make, too. (As has been pointed out, if you push the CL high enough to get over 1000 gp, you have to work a 2nd or even 3rd day on the wondrous item, but still only one day on the potion.)

Are the rules for one-shot wondrous items in PHB or DMG? If not, I find it pointless to debate this any further.


Anyway, our group is running through the Pathfinder Adventure paths in chronological order and the first four were made for 3.5. I want to emulate "an alchemist" as much as possible, and Brew Potions seems like the key part of doing it efficiently in 3.5, without going into 3.5 prestige classes from the Complete series etc.

[Segev]

Are the rules for one-shot wondrous items in PHB or DMG? If not, I find it pointless to debate this any further.


Anyway, our group is running through the Pathfinder Adventure paths in chronological order and the first four were made for 3.5. I want to emulate "an alchemist" as much as possible, and Brew Potions seems like the key part of doing it efficiently in 3.5, without going into 3.5 prestige classes from the Complete series etc.

DMG, under "making magic items."

The table right above where this link will put you has the relevant information:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues

Potions are strictly priced as one-shot magic items.


That said, if you want it for flavor purposes and will have fun, go for it. I am not trying to tell you how to play your character, only make sure you are aware of the most efficient route to the same mechanical effect.

[Allanimal]

The description of potions in the Brew Potion feat does not include a line in the DMG in the creating magic items section.


The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.



Emphasis added. I see it forgotten often...

[Ramza00]

Gremma's Cauldron if your DM will allow it is an awesome wondrous item. (Book is Expedition to Undermountain page 217, aka an adventure book that also has some magic items you can purchase.)

Gremma Cauldron (5,000 gp) gives you


A virtual Brew Potion feat if you do not have the Brew Potion feat already. You can brew potions with the Cauldron and it takes 8 hours to do so.
If you already have Brew Potion feat it now takes only 4 hours to craft a potion.
You can upgrade a spell scroll to a potion, you throw the spell scroll in the cauldron plus extra regents equivalent to the cost of the spell as a potion instead of a scroll. Thus a 150 gp potion is usually a 75 gp scroll so you give up 75gp extra of regents and 3 xp to upgrade the scroll to a potion.
Technically this changes what things can be used as potions vs scrolls, allowing non spellcasters to do things that are not normally possible as potions.
The cauldron once a day can make a cure light wounds potion for 25 gp of regents. This takes 4 hours.


This magic item works real well with non spellcasters in the group to give them things to do with their standard actions and swift actions (Delay Potion Feat allows you to take a potion prior for hours equal to your con modifier and activate it as a swift action.)

-----

Do not forget the awesome 2nd level spell Quick Potion. Pearls of Power are a thing and this thing allows you to give out spells to your non spellcaster that they can use their own actions for.

[jintoya]

Hi,

What it says in the title. I'm thinking of taking the Brew Potions as one of my feats, and I'm using PHB (3.5) only.

I was wondering if some has done something like this before. It's been 16 tears since 3.5 was released so I think it's very likely, I just couldn't find any.

Thanks for help!
You might want to ask your DM how creative he will let you be with craft feats like this, in my settings I have potion crafting work for just about any spells, some require strange herbs and monster parts, I had a player who just tossed random junk in a magic potion brew basin and...I rolled on a random spell effect thing a few times... It was fun for everyone, except the baddies he threw the potions at... One turned into a goblin, the other into a dretch

[Powerdork]

Gremma's Cauldron if your DM will allow it is an awesome wondrous item. (Book is Expedition to Undermountain page 217, aka an adventure book that also has some magic items you can purchase.)

Gremma Cauldron (5,000 gp) gives you


A virtual Brew Potion feat if you do not have the Brew Potion feat already. You can brew potions with the Cauldron and it takes 8 hours to do so.
If you already have Brew Potion feat it now takes only 4 hours to craft a potion.
You can upgrade a spell scroll to a potion, you throw the spell scroll in the cauldron plus extra regents equivalent to the cost of the spell as a potion instead of a scroll. Thus a 150 gp potion is usually a 75 gp scroll so you give up 75gp extra of regents and 3 xp to upgrade the scroll to a potion.
Technically this changes what things can be used as potions vs scrolls, allowing non spellcasters to do things that are not normally possible as potions.
The cauldron once a day can make a cure light wounds potion for 25 gp of regents. This takes 4 hours.


This magic item works real well with non spellcasters in the group to give them things to do with their standard actions and swift actions (Delay Potion Feat allows you to take a potion prior for hours equal to your con modifier and activate it as a swift action.)

-----

Do not forget the awesome 2nd level spell Quick Potion. Pearls of Power are a thing and this thing allows you to give out spells to your non spellcaster that they can use their own actions for.


Remember that OP is playing in a core-only environment.


Here's a work-in-progress of the list I've been working on. (http://pastebin.com/trE64tqM)

[tadkins]

IS there a reason you can't make one-shot wondrous items, instead? I have never once seen Brew Potion be as useful as Craft Wondrous Item in a game, so I am warning you against picking it up on that basis.

Some of us just genuinely like the fantasy of a cackling witchy type character hovering over a cauldron and brewing potions.

[Jeraa]

Some of us just genuinely like the fantasy of a cackling witchy type character hovering over a cauldron and brewing potions.

Then say you one-shot wondrous item is an elixer, and you still get that image. Magic item creation is vague for a reason - you could theoretically fluff all item creation as standing over a bubbling cauldron, mixing together the necessary components that you them submerge the item into for a time (or use the resulting liquid as an ink for scrolls, or as a consumable). So even things like magic swords can be fluffed as cauldron brewing.

[Ramza00]

Remember that OP is playing in a core-only environment.

I apologize I did not see the PHB mention.

[Jack_Simth]

DMG, under "making magic items."

The table right above where this link will put you has the relevant information:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues

Potions are strictly priced as one-shot magic items.


That said, if you want it for flavor purposes and will have fun, go for it. I am not trying to tell you how to play your character, only make sure you are aware of the most efficient route to the same mechanical effect.
Something to keep in mind:
They're guidelines, not rules.

The table is called "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" (Emphasis added), and under "Other Considerations" it includes:

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls. (Emphasis added)

Further, the original bits of that are all from the DMG, not the PHB.

It's all there to help a DM figure out roughly how expensive a given thing should probably be, they're not hard-and-fast rules for players to make whatever. The "poster boy" for why they're not rules per se is the use-activated widget of True Strike, which grants you the benefits of the spell as you're taking a swing. Properly slotted, it'd be 2k market for a +20 to-hit bonus. In the hands of, say, a Fighter-7 with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, that's very close to a +13 sword in practice (Power attack for 7 with a two-handed weapon, and you get +14 [or more, with more investment] to damage for a 7-point to-hit reduction... leaving you +13 attack and +14 damage compared to not having the widget).

[JNAProductions]

Use-activated is generally a standard action.

Seems fair to me-trade a round of attacking for +20 on your next attack.

[Jack_Simth]

Use-activated is generally a standard action.

Seems fair to me-trade a round of attacking for +20 on your next attack.
Check The List (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems). For Use Activated, it's:

This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word, usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all.

Use activation doesn’t mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such from drinking a potion or swinging a sword. (Emphasis added)

Swinging a sword is an attack action.
Interposting a shield is a non-action (it's just part of your AC).
Looking through a lens (assuming you've already got it at your eye) is a non-action.
Wearing a ring is a non-action.

Of the seven initial examples, three are non-actions, one is an attack action; one is definitely a standard action (drink a potion) and two are unclear (sprinkle dust, don a hat).

So "generally a standard action" doesn't mesh very well with the definition of use-activated. It's not necessarily any more of an action cost than wearing a ring is.

[JNAProductions]

Huh. Neat.

Now I know.

[Covenant12]

Uhm. That same logic makes the standard price for magic missile, or finger of death on every sword swing for the same price as standard-action casting. You don't deserve the DMG thrown at you for that, but the entire library. A use-activated item of true strike is a standard action to buff the next attack.

Regardless, there is an existing (3.0) weapon of true strike, a bow. Its cheap, but could definitely be situationally useful. And yes, its a standard action to give true strike to the next attack.

Actually, your quote explains this fairly clearly. "True Strike" is "buff my next attack", which is covered under "If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action." You are ignoring the rest of the text and staring at "it is either A or B", so I like B and am ignoring anything to the contrary.

More directly called out, +20 to-hit, insight or otherwise, has a formula for the cost. This is very much into epic territory, and you won't be able to afford it at level 30, barring out of control Monty Hall.

[Powerdork]

In my digging, I've found that the DMG example of an oil of speak with dead is illegal, since it's got a 10-minute casting time, far longer than the barred "1 minute" casting time. That's fun. I've updated the document, which has the same URL, reproduced here for convenience (http://pastebin.com/trE64tqM).

Edit to add: It's finished. That's the potions selection you've got in core, by class, with notes about limitations that putting a spell in potion/oil form adds. Ask your DM if oils are PC-craftable.

[Jack_Simth]

Uhm. That same logic makes the standard price for magic missile, or finger of death on every sword swing for the same price as standard-action casting. You don't deserve the DMG thrown at you for that, but the entire library. A use-activated item of true strike is a standard action to buff the next attack.

I could go through point by point, but it's pointless to do so: You're missing the point. I'm not advocating the item. I'm saying it's the poster-boy of why you don't let players loose on those guidelines by pretending they're actually rules. There's a LOT of spells which - if made into at-will items - break many of the game's assumptions. You don't like that poster boy? Whatever. Consider Cure Minor Wounds: 1 HP healing. It's a cantrip. Caster level 1, spell level 0 ( = 1/2 for calculation purposes), command-word at-will would work out to 1 * 1/2 * 1800 = 900 gp market, same as a Hand of the Mage. Only this 900 gp item means your entire party always starts every encounter at full HP for the rest of your characters' careers, for only slightly more than the cost of a single wand of Lesser Vigor. So when Segev suggested making one-shot custom wondrous items instead of picking up brew potion, I chose to point out that it's not always going to be possible. They're guidelines, not rules, which makes it very table-dependent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's no list per se but the DMG and SRD both have a table with either most or all of the PHB spells eligible. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) is the SRD version.

Outside of that, there's no real need for one. Just hit the checklist; is it level 4 or lower, does it have a target line, is it personal range, does it take more than a minute to cast? As long as the answers are yes, yes, no, and no; it can be a potion.

[unseenmage]

Cant check right now but I wonder if War Magic or metamagic spells could be potions?

I mean the War Magic ones would be a waste turning many targets onto one target but still amusing.

On second thought that extended casting time for War Magic is an automatic disqualification.

Are there any metamagics that are potion-able?

[Jack_Simth]

Are there any metamagics that are potion-able?Extend Spell comes to mind. Useful for something like Acid Arrow not-poison for someone's drink. Empower Spell on a Shocking Grasp for similar. Energy Substitution for either....

[Powerdork]

There's no list per se but the DMG and SRD both have a table with either most or all of the PHB spells eligible. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) is the SRD version.

Outside of that, there's no real need for one. Just hit the checklist; is it level 4 or lower, does it have a target line, is it personal range, does it take more than a minute to cast? As long as the answers are yes, yes, no, and no; it can be a potion.

At least skim the thread. We established that potions cap out at 3rd, and I've provided the list, given OP said this is a core-only game.


Extend Spell comes to mind. Useful for something like Acid Arrow not-poison for someone's drink. Empower Spell on a Shocking Grasp for similar. Energy Substitution for either....

Acid arrow is an Effect spell, like summon monster I or any ray spell, unfortunately.

[Arkhios]

In my digging, I've found that the DMG example of an oil of speak with dead is illegal, since it's got a 10-minute casting time, far longer than the barred "1 minute" casting time. That's fun. I've updated the document, which has the same URL, reproduced here for convenience (http://pastebin.com/trE64tqM).

Edit to add: It's finished. That's the potions selection you've got in core, by class, with notes about limitations that putting a spell in potion/oil form adds. Ask your DM if oils are PC-craftable.

Awesome, thanks!

Though I don't want to push it, I was kinda hoping it would be in excel format, or something :smallbiggrin:


I've believe that the distinction between an oil and a potion is relatively simple, and both should be doable with Brew Potions feat.

IIRC /my interpretation:
Oils are made using spells that target objects.
Potions are made using spells that target creatures.

As for your question "Why" in regards to Grease, an oil would be great against being restrained by some means, as it grants a +10 circumstance bonus on escape artist checks.

[Bronk]

I've believe that the distinction between an oil and a potion is relatively simple, and both should be doable with Brew Potions feat.


That's something you'll need to clear with your DM, just to make sure... as written, oils are their own thing, and there is no listed way of making them in any book (the Brew Potion feat only specifies potions, not oils).

(Note to self: In core, potions max out at 3rd level spells. Out of core, potions max out at 9th level spells due to the Master Alchemist class.)

[Arkhios]

Luckily my DM is on the same page with me by putting oils and potions into same category as magic items, and therefore allows us to use Brew Potions for either.

Honestly, just because the rules don't specifically spell it out, oils are clearly intended to be part of potions (why else would they be in the same random table?). Nothing says the opposite either, so I find it's unneccessarily restricted point of view to claim it's not possible to use brew potions to make oils; in 3rd edition NPC's are meant to follow same rules as PC's, so how would they be able to sell oils if none could make them in the first place?
(And, it seems, in Pathfinder this clearly erroneus omission was corrected)

[bean illus]

As for your question "Why" in regards to Grease, an oil would be great against being restrained by some means, as it grants a +10 circumstance bonus on escape artist checks.

Why can't Grease as an oil not be thrown in an opponent's square?

[Powerdork]

Why can't Grease as an oil not be thrown in an opponent's square?

The same way potions only work when drunk or fed to someone, oils only work when they're lovingly/hatefully smeared on something.

You see, only targeting spells can be potions or oils; the area version of grease can't be an oil.