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nhbdy
2007-09-25, 12:13 PM
i was looking through the monster manual and animate dead, and was wondering, is there any reason to make a zombie when you could make a skelliton. because it seems to me that a skelliton has every advantaage over a zombie, DR, two actions. so if there's any reason, can you please tell me?

Karsh
2007-09-25, 12:17 PM
Zombies get twice as many HD as skeletons do.

EDIT: Zombies have DR 5/slashing, as well, so they don't have that disadvantage, although adventurers are more likely to have slashing weapons than bludgeoning, admittedly.

Keld Denar
2007-09-25, 12:17 PM
One is Zombies retain all their old movement forms. Therefore, a zombie wyvern or dragon could fly, albeit rather slowly.

Zombies also tend to have move hp, I do believe. Zombie giants have a ton of hp and can soak damage like crazy.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-25, 12:18 PM
Also, brains.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 12:21 PM
Actually, if you're a vegan zombie, it's GRAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINS.

Kyle
2007-09-25, 12:28 PM
Personally I like to toss a couple skeletons in with a few zombies, and give the players a mixed group of low level undead to wail on.

Vuurmeester
2007-09-25, 12:37 PM
Actually, if you're a vegan zombie, it's GRAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINS.
*groan*

That's roughly 30 pun damage.

Kyeudo
2007-09-25, 12:46 PM
Zombies are tougher to bring down than the equivalent CR skeleton, plus certain creatures can't be made into skeletons, such as purple worms.

One interesting creature to zombify is the Hydra. It loses no attacks when made into a zombie, since it can make all its attacks as a standard action.

The other most common zombie creature is the Dragon. Using the Zombie Dragon template from Draconomicon, you can get a zombie with a Breath Weapon that flies, your own personal bomber.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 12:48 PM
Whether you get a zombie or a skeleton from animate dead depends on the condition of the remains at the time of casting, so from a fluff standpoint, the animator doesn't often get a say in the matter; he simply uses whatever's available.

Zombies are stronger than skeletons in the sense that they can absorb more punishment, have (as stated above) more modes of movement available, and are harder to turn.

The value of zombies and skeletons, however, is in their numbers. They make great cannon fodder troops, and can be especially effective when used with surprise. The classic "skeleton in the closet" makes a great trap, and when a zombie is used in this manner, it doesn't need to move very far to get to its target.

Obviously, squaring your PCs off against a horde of zombies in broad daylight, in an open field at 200 yards is going to give away most of their advantages.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 12:50 PM
*groan*

That's roughly 30 pun damage.

Thank you, thank you. //bows

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-25, 01:02 PM
Also, zombies are just plain cooler than skeletons. Scarier too, if you were to meet each respectively. A rotting corpse trying to tear your arm off and chew on your skull would be more frightening that a stack of bones, weapons or not. At least thats how i picture it in my mind (such as it is).


Edit: Grraaaaaiiinnnss made me lawl :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2007-09-25, 01:22 PM
A fun thing to do with both is take the corpsecrafter feat, and then the feat that makes them explode in cold damage whenever they die. Mix in the Lord of Uttercold feat to turn 1/2 the damage into negative energy and every skell or zombie that blows up heals all the surrounding undead. Set them up in a room with a few Uttercold walls of fire (double "damage" vs undead) and something that orders them to fight by running back and forth through the walls (or springattacking if they are skells). Very bad for the poor PCs. Very bad indeed.

Kaelik
2007-09-25, 02:00 PM
I believe his point is that with Animate dead the limiting factor is HD created. So therefore, there is little reason to create zombies (Hydras and Dragons are about it) because for the same HD you could get higher CR more dangerous skeletons.

Runolfr
2007-09-25, 02:35 PM
The rotting walking corpses just creep some people out.

You could also put armor on zombies. Fleshless skellies won't be able to wear armor properly.

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 02:43 PM
Whether you get a zombie or a skeleton from animate dead depends on the condition of the remains at the time of casting, so from a fluff standpoint, the animator doesn't often get a say in the matter; he simply uses whatever's available.

You can make zombies if there is flesh remaining, you can make skeletons no matter what.

From the SRD entry on animate dead:


Skeletons

A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

13_CBS
2007-09-25, 02:50 PM
This isn't RAW, but wouldn't a zombie be a terrible minion to have? It can only move or attack per turn, not both. Thus, intelligent players can fairly easily dance out of their way and never be hit, slowly whittling down those big HD.

Unless, of course, it's easier said that done...

Hzurr
2007-09-25, 03:00 PM
Also, brains.

He raises a valid point.

Dausuul
2007-09-25, 03:15 PM
I believe his point is that with Animate dead the limiting factor is HD created. So therefore, there is little reason to create zombies (Hydras and Dragons are about it) because for the same HD you could get higher CR more dangerous skeletons.

Sure, if you've got the corpses of such creatures just lying about. Most adventurers have to make do with what they can find and kill.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 03:16 PM
This isn't RAW, but wouldn't a zombie be a terrible minion to have? It can only move or attack per turn, not both. Thus, intelligent players can fairly easily dance out of their way and never be hit, slowly whittling down those big HD.

Unless, of course, it's easier said that done...
2 words: partial charge

TheOOB
2007-09-25, 03:35 PM
Typically, skeletons are better at combat, but zombies are a little more defensive, and they can gain some traits skeletons can't. For example you can have a flying zombie dragon, or a zombie hydra with lots of attacks :P

OzymandiasVolt
2007-09-25, 03:51 PM
Or you can have a skeletal hydra with lots of attacks.

de-trick
2007-09-25, 04:03 PM
for fluff because what game would D&D be if they had no zombie

OzymandiasVolt
2007-09-25, 04:09 PM
It would be DnD without zombies.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-25, 04:09 PM
As the above poster stated, what game would it be if there were no zombies? :smallconfused:

VerdugoExplode
2007-09-25, 04:12 PM
Well you could always make a zombie that reflects many of the more modern trends in zombie cinema. The most ideal example is the 28 days later/new dawn of the dead zombies.

They would probably get a boost to movement speed, improved grapple, extra attacks, the ability to sniff out their living prey and if you're feeling particularly vindictive getting wounded by one will inevitably turn you into one. I'm pretty sure the players will be quite surprised seeing a group of these surging towards them at impressive speeds.

Of course the PC's may not last very long against these monstrosities but hey, that's what dream sequences are for.

Nebnezz
2007-09-25, 04:35 PM
With the Higher Hit Dice, Zombies can resist the ultimate anti-undead...thingy. A first level Cleric could, with a high roll, could turn an Owlbear Skeley, CR 2. Wolves and Human Skeleys dont stand a chance. With one feat from the complete divine, Disciple of the Sun, two turn attempts makes for dead Owlbear...dead again anyway, and ideally he would stay that way. Same Clr 1, Highest roll on a check, couldnt touch a CR 2 zombie, the Bugbear, not to mention the Ogre, CR 3.

Seems, to me anyway, with the higher hit dice, zombies are harder to turn. With average rolls, a Crl 1 could turn a human skeley, CR 1/3, but by the time he could turn a CR 1 Wolf Skeley, he would only just be starting to turn the CR 1/2 Kobold Zombie.

Zombies are a Cleric Cracker. Go team cleric indeed.

Nebby

Kaelik
2007-09-25, 04:45 PM
Okay. All of that is great everyone. But he was referring to Animate Dead. The only limitation is HD. So a zombies greater HD at same CR is a disadvantage. Which is why he wanted to know if there was any reason to create zombies with the spell instead of skeletons.

The answer is, only for hydras and for special movement types. Otherwise no. You should always turn creatures into Skeletons because you get more bang for your HD.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-25, 04:55 PM
Some tips on animation. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8625620&postcount=3)

Dausuul
2007-09-25, 05:04 PM
Okay. All of that is great everyone. But he was referring to Animate Dead. The only limitation is HD. So a zombies greater HD at same CR is a disadvantage. Which is why he wanted to know if there was any reason to create zombies with the spell instead of skeletons.

The answer is, only for hydras and for special movement types. Otherwise no. You should always turn creatures into Skeletons because you get more bang for your HD.

Not at all. If you've got a 10 Hit Die corpse, that can give you a 10 Hit Die skeleton... or a 20 Hit Die zombie. Double the hit points, double the fun. Plus the zombie will have better AC, hit slightly harder, and have a vastly better attack bonus.

If the dead creature had 10 Hit Dice or less, you're usually better off with a zombie unless the creature has a lot of natural weapons. At 11+ Hit Dice, you can't make a zombie (unless using the Draconomicon rules for zombie dragons), so skeletons are your only option.

Now, if you have access to any corpses you want? Then of course you should be getting the corpses of 20 Hit Die giants and skeletonizing them. But you won't usually have that luxury in a real game.

Jack Mann
2007-09-25, 05:55 PM
You could go with that... Or you could go with two 10 HD skeletons. The major limit on undead minions is the number of HD you can control, not the available corpses. Eventually, most things you fight will die.

Dausuul
2007-09-25, 06:12 PM
You could go with that... Or you could go with two 10 HD skeletons. The major limit on undead minions is the number of HD you can control, not the available corpses. Eventually, most things you fight will die.

Depends on what you're playing and what monsters you fight. I'm playing a 10th-level dread necromancer right now, and I have never come anywhere near my Hit Die cap--partly because dread necros get a huge bonus to the number of Hit Dice they can control, partly because my undead get destroyed on a regular basis (after all, a lot of their job is to soak up damage that would otherwise hit me and my fellow party members), and partly because we're fighting a lot of drow. I only make skeletons when we kill something with 11 or more Hit Dice; otherwise, a good tough monster corpse is too valuable to waste.

SilverClawShift
2007-09-25, 08:12 PM
"Why make a zombie instead of a skeleton?"

That special noise they make :smallsmile:

Leon
2007-09-25, 09:04 PM
2 words: partial charge

coupled with Liber Mortis's "Special Zombies"

Arakune
2007-09-25, 09:16 PM
face it, no one can stand up the charismatic zombies. they are everywhere!

Yakk
2007-09-25, 09:46 PM
I disagree -- getting ahold of 10 HD creature corpses isn't trivial.

Plus a smart animator can do the "animate, order, then release" trick: just place them in strong enough tombs, or order them to walk towards the enemy territory then release them after an appropriate period of time.

In a desecrated region, each cast of animate dead produce the full level*4 zombies or skeletons. A L 10 cleric can, with each cast, turn a 10 HD critter's corpse into a 20 HD zombie, order it to move into position, then summon a new one. The old one remains uncontrolled -- but depending on what you want it to do, that might be acceptable.

brian c
2007-09-25, 10:21 PM
A fun thing to do with both is take the corpsecrafter feat, and then the feat that makes them explode in cold damage whenever they die. Mix in the Lord of Uttercold feat to turn 1/2 the damage into negative energy and every skell or zombie that blows up heals all the surrounding undead. Set them up in a room with a few Uttercold walls of fire (double "damage" vs undead) and something that orders them to fight by running back and forth through the walls (or springattacking if they are skells). Very bad for the poor PCs. Very bad indeed.

Actually, I'm pretty sure there's a feat in Libris Mortis that makes your undead explode with negative energy when they die. That's extremely helpful when you have bunches of zombies.

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-25, 10:40 PM
Yea, the explosion is negative energy, I think you were confusing it with the feat that grant your zombies d6 cold damage with each hit.

Feralgeist
2007-09-26, 02:07 AM
heheheh. Either be a necropolitan or take tomb-tainted soul.....ALL OF YOUR ZOMBIES AND SKELETONS ARE WALKING POTIONS

tannish2
2007-09-26, 02:19 AM
heheheh. Either be a necropolitan or take tomb-tainted soul.....ALL OF YOUR ZOMBIES AND SKELETONS ARE WALKING POTIONS

you are evil..... what are your domains and favored weapon?

Dervag
2007-09-26, 02:27 AM
Actually, if you're a vegan zombie, it's GRAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINS.I always thought it was BRRAAAANNNNNNN.

Irreverent Fool
2007-09-26, 02:46 AM
You could go with that... Or you could go with two 10 HD skeletons. The major limit on undead minions is the number of HD you can control, not the available corpses. Eventually, most things you fight will die.

Not to mention once you get polymorph any object you've got any kind of corpse you want.

I think it's been pretty well stated, zombies are 'meat shields' while skeletons work better as shock troopers. As for the 'more skeletons for your spell' I agree with this, but as far as a game goes more minions is bad because it's more bookkeeping.

Also, special movement forms, yadda yadda.

I didn't see it mentioned, but I might be blind:

Zombies get additional natural armor rather than a completely new natural armor score. If you simply must animate that dragon, make it a zombie, unless you like minions with 12 AC.

Now, for damage-soaking, I prefer blood hulks from the MM4 but that's neither here nor there.

Leon
2007-09-26, 04:16 AM
I always thought it was BRRAAAANNNNNNN.

that keeps Zombies regular

Dausuul
2007-09-26, 05:20 AM
Not to mention once if you ever reach such a high level under such a cheese-tolerant DM that you get polymorph any object you've got any kind of corpse you want.

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

Subotei
2007-09-26, 07:58 AM
Zombies smell bad. Skeletons are better if you're having people round, as most guests don't like retching over their nibbles.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-26, 08:27 AM
Well you could always make a zombie that reflects many of the more modern trends in zombie cinema. The most ideal example is the 28 days later/new dawn of the dead zombies.

They would probably get a boost to movement speed, improved grapple, extra attacks, the ability to sniff out their living prey and if you're feeling particularly vindictive getting wounded by one will inevitably turn you into one. I'm pretty sure the players will be quite surprised seeing a group of these surging towards them at impressive speeds.

Of course the PC's may not last very long against these monstrosities but hey, that's what dream sequences are for.

Dude. D&D Zomboes are not movie zombies.

Movie Zombies are Ghouls. Compare the two.
Infection/infection
Fast/fast
Wounded turns into one.
Also talk: D&D Zombies can't say Brains, but Ghouls can.

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-26, 12:54 PM
On the subject of zombies - I remember hearing about a spell that will keep an undead from rotting for years at a time, but the only spell I could find was Gentle Repose, which only has a shelf time of days.

Am I crazy, or is there a spell out there with those effects?

Dausuul
2007-09-26, 01:41 PM
On the subject of zombies - I remember hearing about a spell that will keep an undead from rotting for years at a time, but the only spell I could find was Gentle Repose, which only has a shelf time of days.

Am I crazy, or is there a spell out there with those effects?

I don't know of one, but you could ask your DM to let you use permanency on gentle repose at a nominal cost (say 50 XP or so). Or just custom-research a "my zombies don't stink" spell.

Or you could get the feat that adds 1d6 cold damage to your minions' attacks, and then argue that this should have the side effect of keeping your zombies refrigerated.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-26, 01:48 PM
On the subject of zombies - I remember hearing about a spell that will keep an undead from rotting for years at a time, but the only spell I could find was Gentle Repose, which only has a shelf time of days.

Am I crazy, or is there a spell out there with those effects?

Cast Prestigidation each day so they don't: or let them stink, but change the scent.
How about roses!

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-26, 02:00 PM
Or you could get the feat that adds 1d6 cold damage to your minions' attacks, and then argue that this should have the side effect of keeping your zombies refrigerated.

And make them carry the beer!

Kyeudo
2007-09-26, 04:48 PM
Now, for damage-soaking, I prefer blood hulks from the MM4 but that's neither here nor there.

The problem with Blood Hulks is they have ridiculously high hit dice. You realy can't control more than one or two of the suckers on your Animate Dead hit dice.

I can't remember the undead's name, but the undead that automaticly have a negative energy touch and explode for negative energy damage is pretty nice. Its also in MM4. Get Tomb-Tainted Soul and call it "Medic."

Starbuck_II
2007-09-26, 08:36 PM
The problem with Blood Hulks is they have ridiculously high hit dice. You realy can't control more than one or two of the suckers on your Animate Dead hit dice.

I can't remember the undead's name, but the undead that automaticly have a negative energy touch and explode for negative energy damage is pretty nice. Its also in MM4. Get Tomb-Tainted Soul and call it "Medic."

Cast Control Undead and flip them off animate?