Power is Power and You

[Ashiel]

I often find myself using the term "Power is Power", coined by this sites very own Xykon. It's something I've taken to heart as an oft-unnoticed but ever present truth. It's a mantra that echos strongly when I GM, but perhaps even more-so when I am a player. In the strip where the quote comes from, Xykon is in many ways outmatched by a (temporarily) stronger mage, but leverages a simple +8 bonus to a skill check to grab the invisible mage and seize certain victory.

I've seen "overpowered" characters brought to their knees by common threats that those of far humbler stature routinely dismantle due to a tendency to leverage their power a bit differently and be more flexible.

So I'm a bit curious. What does the phrase "Power is Power" mean to the rest of the playgrounders and has this mantra ever given you a different perspective on things?

[Malphegor]

Hm. Not my kind of mantra really- I tend to subscribe to the ‘don’t plug your brain into a power source bigger than your head’ kind of logic, but I admit, there is a logic to the idea of any advantage, no matter how slight, being desireable.

For example, I recently realised that in my group none of us have been using the cover rules or taking any cover really, or using the environment much. The +4 to AC by hiding adjacent to your Hydra-polymorphed bff could mean the difference from success and getting a Harold Godwinson in the eye.

Tactical planning and good usage of firepower is almost always superior to high firepower without a plan.

Retreat is always an option. It is not a failure- it’s a regrouping to ensure future success. encounters are designed as skirmishes, battles... But one can still win the war. You can even make it a war, where otherwise it would have been just a brief scuffle.

[Ashiel]

Well, my interpretation of the phrase could be described as recognizing advantages even when they are small.

For example, in the original Xykon comic, he uses the Listen skill to grab his foe. I've noticed that some people wouldn't even think to do so, because they'd be too focused on having the right spell for the job (such as see invisibility). I've seen people build mages that have 20 Int and 7 Str who can't carry some meager gear effectively and wet themselves when they see a Shadow, while the mage with 12 Str and 14 Int with a few ranks scattered in skills so they can take 10 or 20 and accomplish lots of typical DCs ends up being the superior adventurer.

To me it's recognizing that having potion of protection from evil largely trivializes encounters with things like succubi and vampires by shutting down their most dangerous attacks no matter what their save DCs are. Or putting 1 rank into Disable Device (or Open Lock for 3.x) so you can take 20 and open standard locks, or putting a rank in Survival so you can always discern north without casting spells.

[Cosi]

The example you're basing this off is pretty bad. OotS may occasionally use D&D mechanics for jokes, but it's being running off plot logic instead of rules for a long time. V having freedom of movement in that example negates Xykon's strategy, and even that assumes they weren't smart enough to use any of the dozens of tactics available to them to kill Xykon without ever having to get into a room with them at all.

Yes, using your resources intelligently is important, but so is having resources to use. One of the problems of examining the power of optimized characters relative to non-optimized ones is that optimized characters can frequently succeed at tasks non-optimized ones simply can't attempt, and since telling a player "no roll, you lose" is considered bad form, those things tend to be underrepresented in our experience of D&D.

[Ashiel]

The example you're basing this off is pretty bad. OotS may occasionally use D&D mechanics for jokes, but it's being running off plot logic instead of rules for a long time. V having freedom of movement in that example negates Xykon's strategy, and even that assumes they weren't smart enough to use any of the dozens of tactics available to them to kill Xykon without ever having to get into a room with them at all.
I think I'm not being clear. I'm talking about the mindset behind the idea. That sort of "eureka" realization that power takes many forms.


Yes, using your resources intelligently is important, but so is having resources to use.
We're agreeing.


One of the problems of examining the power of optimized characters relative to non-optimized ones is that optimized characters can frequently succeed at tasks non-optimized ones simply can't attempt, and since telling a player "no roll, you lose" is considered bad form, those things tend to be underrepresented in our experience of D&D.
I never made mention of optimized or non-optimized characters in either of my posts.

[gkathellar]

In a 3.5 context, power is only power until it runs into an immunity.

[icefractal]

In the context he said it, the point was most directly that the Lich template was worth having - a point that's rather often debated. :smalltongue:

For Xykon, given the world he's in, I'd agree - the Lich template is worth having.
1) He's already Epic level. Once you have 9th level spells; the difference between, say, CL 50 and 54 is pretty minor.
2) He (and the other OOTS characters) are mid-low op, and relatively light on items. In those conditions, the benefits of undeath are considerable.
3) Most importantly, for a character that's not part of a party, and is one of the most powerful beings currently around, LA doesn't necessarily mean anything. He needs to fight tougher stuff to even gain XP? Yeah, it was already the case that 99% of the things he fights don't give him any XP. He'll take longer to advance? Well good thing he's immortal then.

On the broader point - it depends. Obviously, any kind of power has some utility, some situation where it would make the critical difference. On the other hand, opportunity cost is a real thing - taking Toughness does have some chance to save your life, but taking Still Spell has a significantly bigger one.

And also - is it even desirable to be defended from every angle? As a solo character - yes. As part of a team, maybe not. I think that from a spotlight-sharing context, a mage who has massive spikes of power but needs to be rescued sometimes is better than one who just operates consistently at a "slightly better than everyone else" level.

[noob]

honestly if you plan to not get levels again(or know you will not) the smartest thing is to contract all the kinds of lycanthropy(which is like getting a ton of levels at once) and then get some cool undead template.
When you are close to the end of the campaign becoming a were wolf were bear were rat and so on becomes a net power boost without problems since you were not going to gain levels anymore anyway.
Once you reach level 21 since all that matters now is epic feats and hit dice then contracting all the kinds of lycanthropy is a good idea.