Hold Person, what are the limits of Humanoid?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Is there an exhaustive list hiding anyplace in my DM's Guide of what is and isn't a humanoid for the purposes of Hold Person? Generally If its shaped like a human and is a reasonable size I've been letting it fly but even the Bard's player was asking where the line is between Hold Monster and Hold Person.

Below is the spell and what my idea of what counts as "humanoid". Does it seem like I have a clue?

------------------------------------------

Choose a humanoid that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be Paralyzed for the Duration. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make another Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you can target on additional humanoid for each slot level above 2nd. The humanoids must be within 30 feet of each other when you target them.

------------------------------------------



Commoner



Bandit



Cultist



Guard



Kobold
kobold


Merfolk
merfolk


Noble



Tribal Warrior



Xvart
xvart


Aarakocra
aarakocra


Acolyte



Bullywug
bullywug


Derro
derro


Drow
elf


Goblin
goblinoid


Grimlock
grimlock


Grung
grung


Kenku
kenku


Kobold Inventor
kobold


Kuo-toa
kuo-toa


Tortle
tortle


Troglodyte
troglodyte


Winged Kobold
kobold


Firenewt Warrior
firenewt


Gnoll
gnoll


Gnoll Hunter
gnoll


Hobgoblin
goblinoid


Jackalwere
shapechanger


Lizardfolk
lizardfolk


Orc
orc


Orc Nurtured One of Yurtrus
orc


Sahuagin
sahuagin


Scout



Skulk



Svirfneblin
gnome


Thug



Bugbear
goblinoid


Duergar
dwarf


Duergar Soulblade
dwarf


Firenewt Warlock of Imix
firenewt


Gnoll Flesh Gnawer
gnoll


Goblin Boss
goblinoid


Grung Wildling
grung


Kobold Dragonshield
kobold


Kobold Scale Sorcerer
kobold


Kuo-toa Whip
kuo-toa


Meazel
meazel


Nilbog
goblinoid


Sea Spawn



Spy



Thri-kreen
thri-kreen


Xvart Warlock of Raxivort
xvart


Yuan-ti Pureblood
yuan-ti


Bandit Captain



Berserker



Cult Fanatic



Druid



Duergar Kavalrachni
dwarf


Duergar Mind Master
dwarf


Duergar Stone Guard
dwarf


Duergar Xarrorn
dwarf


Githzerai Monk
gith


Gnoll Pack Lord
gnoll


Grung Elite Warrior
grung


Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
goblinoid


Lizardfolk Shaman
lizardfolk


Orc Claw of Luthic
orc


Orc Eye of Gruumsh
orc


Orc Hand of Yurtrus
orc


Orog
orc


Priest



Quaggoth
quaggoth


Sahuagin Priestess
sahuagin


Tortle Druid
tortle


Wererat
human, shapechanger


Yuan-ti Broodguard
yuan-ti


Bugbear Chief
goblinoid


Deep Scion
shapechanger


Derro Savant
derro


Giff



Githyanki Warrior
gith


Hobgoblin Captain
goblinoid


Knight



Orc Red Fang of Shargaas
orc


Quaggoth Thonot
quaggoth


Veteran



Werewolf
human, shapechanger


Hobgoblin Devastator
goblinoid


Lizard King/Queen
lizardfolk


Orc Blade of Ilneval
orc


Orc War Chief
orc


Wereboar
human, shapechanger


Weretiger
human, shapechanger


Drow Elite Warrior
elf


Gladiator



Half-Red Dragon Veteran
human


Sahuagin Baron
sahuagin


Werebear
human, shapechanger


Duergar Warlord
dwarf


Githzerai Zerth
gith


Hobgoblin Warlord
goblinoid


Kuo-toa Archpriest
kuo-toa


Mage



Drow Mage
elf


Shadow Dancer
elf


Assassin



Drow Priestess of Lolth
elf


Githyanki Knight
gith


Drow House Captain
elf


Flind
gnoll


Gloom Weaver
elf


Githyanki Gish
gith


Githzerai Enlightened
gith


Drow Shadowblade
elf


Soul Monger
elf


Archmage



Duergar Despot
dwarf


Githyanki Kith'rak
gith


Drow Arachnomancer
elf


Drow Inquisitor
elf


Githyanki Supreme Commander
gith


Githzerai Anarch
gith


Nagpa
nagpa


Drow Favored Consort
elf


Drow Matron Mother
elf

[PhantomSoul]

A "Humanoid" is defined in game terms -- it'll show up in the Creature Type part of a stat block. If it says it's a Humanoid, then it's a Humanoid; if not, then it isn't.

https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/monsters can be sorted by Creature Type, but it's not an exhaustive list given homebrew, third-party content, and potentially source books not included in their database.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

A "Humanoid" is defined in game terms -- it'll show up in the Creature Type part of a stat block. If it says it's a Humanoid, then it's a Humanoid; if not, then it isn't.

https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/monsters can be sorted by Creature Type, but it's not an exhaustive list given homebrew, third-party content, and potentially source books not included in their database.

ok. That's easy enough.

For game purposes I'm considering showing the casters in the party I DM for with access to the spell read the list because they should have SOME CLUE what their spell can and can't do. Then I'll take it away from them because you never know what decisions will be made in the heat of the battle.

[JoeJ]

A "Humanoid" is defined in game terms -- it'll show up in the Creature Type part of a stat block. If it says it's a Humanoid, then it's a Humanoid; if not, then it isn't.

https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/monsters can be sorted by Creature Type, but it's not an exhaustive list given homebrew, third-party content, and potentially source books not included in their database.

Right. In all the official material it's in the top line of the creature's stat block, right underneath the name.

[Malifice]

Is there an exhaustive list hiding anyplace in my DM's Guide of what is and isn't a humanoid for the purposes of Hold Person?

Serious question (and I'm not trying to be rude), but the game has been out for 5 years, Hold person works the same as it did in 3E (affects monsters of a certain type), you're DMing the game, and... you dont know that monsters have types?

Like.. you didnt know that Undead/ Beast/ Humanoid/ Dragon/ Fiend etc are defined game terms, with every single monster belonging to one of those types?

Hold person effects 'humanoids'. Humanoid is a type. It's listed in the monsters stat block, right up the top. Every monster has a type (as does every PC - most of whom are 'humanoids')

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Serious question (and I'm not trying to be rude), but the game has been out for 5 years, Hold person works the same as it did in 3E (affects monsters of a certain type), you're DMing the game, and... you dont know that monsters have types?

Like.. you didnt know that Undead/ Beast/ Humanoid/ Dragon/ Fiend etc are defined game terms, with every single monster belonging to one of those types?

Hold person effects 'humanoids'. Humanoid is a type. It's listed in the monsters stat block, right up the top. Every monster has a type (as does every PC - most of whom are 'humanoids')

This is a world of exceptions and I figure its safer to ask than to be wrong later.

[Millstone85]

You should also read the definitions given in the MM p6-7.

And here are player guidelines as I would give them:

Each creature has only one type.
The curse of undeath trumps everything. It doesn't matter what an undead was before it was undead.
Creatures of otherworldly origins, meaning aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, and fiends, count as such. Some creatures, like elves and tieflings, have only a faint heritage that does not define their type.
True dragons and lesser draconic creatures all count as dragons. However, dragonborn do not, perhaps for the same reason as elves and tieflings.
To make biologists cry, plant creatures also include fungal ones.
The nature of oozes is evident.
Giants, while clearly giant humanoids, only count as giants, because shut up.
With the rest out of the way, it is easy to recognize beasts, constructs, and humanoids. Playable races are always humanoid, with the exception of Ravnican centaurs.
Finally, a monstrosity is a creature for which the devs couldn't figure out another type.

[Boci]

Serious question (and I'm not trying to be rude), but the game has been out for 5 years, Hold person works the same as it did in 3E (affects monsters of a certain type), you're DMing the game, and... you dont know that monsters have types?

Like.. you didnt know that Undead/ Beast/ Humanoid/ Dragon/ Fiend etc are defined game terms, with every single monster belonging to one of those types?

Hold person effects 'humanoids'. Humanoid is a type. It's listed in the monsters stat block, right up the top. Every monster has a type (as does every PC - most of whom are 'humanoids')

It happened to a player of mine. They were playing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and thought it would be useful, until I told them that whilst ghouls, spawn and vampires looked humanoid they were in fact undead.

Its an understandable mistake. Depending on the types of characters you play, creature type may never come up for you, or even your group. Sure its there in the state block, but if you never reference it your eyes can easily skip it, like alighment, as you instead check the stuff that comes up in every fight: ac, hp and attacks. Or you never even read the monster manual because you haven't DMed.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It happened to a player of mine. They were playing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and thought it would be useful, until I told them that whilst ghouls, spawn and vampires looked humanoid they were in fact undead.

Its an understandable mistake. Depending on the types of characters you play, creature type may never come up for you, or even your group. Sure its there in the state block, but if you never reference it your eyes can easily skip it, like alighment, as you instead check the stuff that comes up in every fight: ac, hp and attacks. Or you never even read the monster manual because you haven't DMed.

In my opinion, Hold Person is pretty intiutive. You'd be hard pressed to find your way to Hold Person in the PHB without learning that Humanoid is a game term that defines a certain creature type. Along the way you pass mentions of several creature types (this is in the PHB mind you) and you really should know the difference by the time you get to the spells section.

I agree that the mistake is understandable but it wouldn't happen often, if at all, if a player followed the Character Creation guidelines from start to finish. Step 1 of character creation is "Choose a Race" where the first sentence is "Every character belongs to a race, one of the many intelligent humanoid species in the D&D world."

Even if you were to skip straight to Spells it would be clear that some spells choose "creature" as their target and some spells choose "humanoid" as their target. This should raise some eyebrows and cause the reader to investigate. Comparing "Hold Person" to "Hold Monster" should make it crystal clear.

[Chronos]

This is a constant source of frustration for the bard in my group, who has attempted to use the spell on redcaps, cyclopses, slaaden, yuan-ti, and all manner of other creatures which are basically human-shaped but not "humanoids".

[Boci]

I agree that the mistake is understandable but it wouldn't happen often, if at all, if a player followed the Character Creation guidelines from start to finish. Step 1 of character creation is "Choose a Race" where the first sentence is "Every character belongs to a race, one of the many intelligent humanoid species in the D&D world."

This really seems like a case of it being obvious in hindsight, if you already know what to look for. If not, you have intelligent humanoid species. Intelligent is a fluff word it doesn't have any specific rules meaning, and ditto on species. I think you are vastly over estimating how intuitive it is so zoom in on humanoind species and know that humanoid is therefor a creature type.


Even if you were to skip straight to Spells it would be clear that some spells choose "creature" as their target and some spells choose "humanoid" as their target. This should raise some eyebrows and cause the reader to investigate. Comparing "Hold Person" to "Hold Monster" should make it crystal clear.

Alternativly, you just think that because you already know the answer. Someone, like my player, could just as easily read the two spells and thing "well obviously hold person won't work on a dragon or a kraken since they aren't humanoids, but a vampire is".

[Millstone85]

Also at a player's credit, none of the stat blocks in the PHB has the humanoid type. So no "They wrote it here but not under the skeleton, so the latter doesn't count as humanoid".

[some guy]

In my opinion, Hold Person is pretty intiutive. You'd be hard pressed to find your way to Hold Person in the PHB without learning that Humanoid is a game term that defines a certain creature type. Along the way you pass mentions of several creature types (this is in the PHB mind you) and you really should know the difference by the time you get to the spells section.

I agree that the mistake is understandable but it wouldn't happen often, if at all, if a player followed the Character Creation guidelines from start to finish. Step 1 of character creation is "Choose a Race" where the first sentence is "Every character belongs to a race, one of the many intelligent humanoid species in the D&D world."

Even if you were to skip straight to Spells it would be clear that some spells choose "creature" as their target and some spells choose "humanoid" as their target. This should raise some eyebrows and cause the reader to investigate. Comparing "Hold Person" to "Hold Monster" should make it crystal clear.

Are there any sections in the phb, other than the ranger, that lists all the creature types? A typical player would not know giants are their own type and not Humanoids (this actually came up in my game yesterday). Likewise, the lines between Beasts and Monstrosities are sometimes blurry (a worg is a Monstrosity, but a stirge is a Beast).
As for Hold Person vs Hold Monster, it's a level 2 vs a lvl 5 spell. While I do expect players with level 9 characters to know enough about creature types, I don't expect the same of level 3 pc players.

I think it's not out of the ordinary for inexperienced players to be confused about creature types.

(edit: also a Fire Giant, Efreeti and enlarged Fire Genasi sorcerer with fire spells are all giant humanoids with an elemental flavor, but one is a Giant, one is an Elemental and one is a Humanoid. Plenty of my players would not know the difference in creature type if they saw all three at once.)

[ProsecutorGodot]

This really seems like a case of it being obvious in hindsight, if you already know what to look for. If not, you have intelligent humanoid species. Intelligent is a fluff word it doesn't have any specific rules meaning, and ditto on species. I think you are vastly over estimating how intuitive it is so zoom in on humanoind species and know that humanoid is therefor a creature type.

Alternativly, you just think that because you already know the answer. Someone, like my player, could just as easily read the two spells and thing "well obviously hold person won't work on a dragon or a kraken since they aren't humanoids, but a vampire is".


Are there any sections in the phb, other than the ranger, that lists all the creature types?
Undead is referenced many times. Aside from Rangers, we don't get a huge amount of them being mentioned. Cleric, Druid and notably (and topical) Paladins give several examples of creature type in their class features. Here's Paladin's Divine Sense.


The presence of strong evil registers on your senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears. As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces. Until the end of your next turn, you know the location of any celestial, fiend, or undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover. You know the type (celestial, fiend, or undead) of any being whose presence you sense, but not its identity (the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich, for instance).


I suppose you could argue that it's clear in hindsight, but I still think you'd be hard pressed to go through the PHB without some mention of creature types.

[Keravath]

This is a constant source of frustration for the bard in my group, who has attempted to use the spell on redcaps, cyclopses, slaaden, yuan-ti, and all manner of other creatures which are basically human-shaped but not "humanoids".

Just a side note, yuan-ti purebloods ARE humanoids even though the rest of the yuan-ti are monstrosities.

[Boci]

I suppose you could argue that it's clear in hindsight, but I still think you'd be hard pressed to go through the PHB without some mention of creature types.

I don't think it is as hard as you are making it out to be. You know humanoid and undead are both types AND that two creature types are mutually exlusive. But if you don't "Yeah, ofcourse vampires are undead. And they're also humanoid. Unlike a dracolich, which is undead but not a humanoid" seems perfectly logical.

If you read the ranger favoured enemy you should realize yes, but short of that, I don't think it intuitive that humanoid is a creature type just as much as fiend or undead is.

[PhantomSoul]

You should also read the definitions given in the MM p6-7.

And here are player guidelines as I would give them:

Each creature has only one type.
The curse of undeath trumps everything. It doesn't matter what an undead was before it was undead.
Creatures of otherworldly origins, meaning aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, and fiends, count as such. Some creatures, like elves and tieflings, have only a faint heritage that does not define their type.
True dragons and lesser draconic creatures all count as dragons. However, dragonborn do not, perhaps for the same reason as elves and tieflings.
To make biologists cry, plant creatures also include fungal ones.
The nature of oozes is evident.
Giants, while clearly giant humanoids, only count as giants, because shut up.
With the rest out of the way, it is easy to recognize beasts, constructs, and humanoids. Playable races are always humanoid, with the exception of Ravnican centaurs.
Finally, a monstrosity is a creature for which the devs couldn't figure out another type.


This is great. I think it would help to think of Beast and Humanoid as "last resorts" -- barring playable races, you're a Humanoid if you're vaguely human-shaped and don't fit elsewhere (sometimes that requires lore knowledge like for Yuan-Ti classifications, but learning those aren't humanoids in all cases almost feels like the mechanics giving narration or world-building), and you're a Beast if you're animal-like and don't fit elsewhere.

Monstrosities goes earlier in the decision process because it's animal fusions and mythical creatures (true "monsters" without otherworldly connections, not "we're-fighting-you" monsters).

If they cast Hold Person on a non-Humanoid, then consider how you'll rule invalid targets (I believe it's Xanathar's that gives guidance there, but it's something you can easily decide to play however you and your table prefer) -- spell slot loss? Action economy loss? Neither, saying they try to create a magical link but fail, revealing the true [creature type] nature of the [creature name]? Roll an Ability Check before casting to determine what their character knows (and then tell the player if they know anything)?

[JoeJ]

If they cast Hold Person on a non-Humanoid, then consider how you'll rule invalid targets (I believe it's Xanathar's that gives guidance there, but it's something you can easily decide to play however you and your table prefer) -- spell slot loss? Action economy loss? Neither, saying they try to create a magical link but fail, revealing the true [creature type] nature of the [creature name]? Roll an Ability Check before casting to determine what their character knows (and then tell the player if they know anything)?

I would rule that the spell cast on an invalid target simply fails. The slot is spent, but nothing happens. There's no feedback or "error message" to the caster unless the spell description says that there is. On the flip side, however, a character who knows the spell should already know what it does, so a statement from the DM along the lines of, "you know that doesn't work on vampire, right?" would be appropriate if it appears that the player is confused.

[Malifice]

It happened to a player of mine. They were playing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and thought it would be useful, until I told them that whilst ghouls, spawn and vampires looked humanoid they were in fact undead.

Its an understandable mistake. Depending on the types of characters you play, creature type may never come up for you, or even your group. Sure its there in the state block, but if you never reference it your eyes can easily skip it, like alighment, as you instead check the stuff that comes up in every fight: ac, hp and attacks. Or you never even read the monster manual because you haven't DMed.

Oh I get how a player can **** it up. But a DM?

That blows my mind.

Like if you dont get a rule as fundamental as that... well... you know.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Oh I get how a player can **** it up. But a DM?

That blows my mind.

Like if you dont get a rule as fundamental as that... well... you know.

Yeah, I'll ask some questions clarifying the obvious and I'll make leaps of logic which will change your mind about some issue of global importance.

Some folks are good at remembering names, some folks are good at posting on the internet and sounding reasonable, some do spreadsheets, some can find a shortcoming in any rule and have to ask, we all have different skills.

Consider if you would have said, "yeah, that list you posted is 99% accurate on humanoids until a new book comes out" it would have seemed like you were good at posting on a forum in a friendly manner...

.....and yes, you were one of the folks PMing me about how I was being too nice to that kid and his pretty out there sorcerer builds like he was the not so nice one on the forum lol. Your signature should include that line you used about wishing cancer on him.

[Teaguethebean]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=11&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-has-lair= it will be in this comprehensive list if it counts

[MarkVIIIMarc]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=11&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-has-lair= it will be in this comprehensive list if it counts

Thank you very much. I always forget about that site and it is very helpful.

[MrStabby]

I get how a DM can not know this. A group of friends picks up the game, or the PHB anyway and start to play. You learn by doing. Nothing wrong with that. Absolutely fine with asking about things you are not sure about and you should be able to do so without condescension aimed at you. Being a DM is tough enough without having to contend with the unpleasant underbelly of the internet.

The main step is adopting the idea that a) humanoid is a creature and b) that these types are mutually exclusive. With this you can make a good call on most. Fire giant? More likely to be a giant or a humanoid? Vampire? More likely to be undead or humanoid? Once you have the list of things a creature could be, it becomes pretty obvious most of the time. If you are a DM picking up the role from the PHB this is not perfectly clear. Even (from memory) the DMG doesn't really make this clear (the MM is more explicit, but I don't think it unreasonable that a player could consider themselves equipped to DM if they have the DMG.

[Chronos]

Beasts are (mostly) real-world animals (except stirges and giant birds are also beasts).

The book describes monstrosities as being the weirdest of the weird, but really, they're not. They usually have more or less normal anatomy, with endoskeletons made of bones, more or less the internal organs you'd expect, a head with a mouth, a brain, and the usual complement of sense organs, and so on. The weirdest thing about them is that they're sometimes crossbreeds, possibly even of different classes, like griffons and owlbears.

It's aberrations that are the really weird ones. They can have things like being composed entirely of brain tissue with a diet consisting entirely of thoughts, or a mouth in the middle of their eye with tentacles with more eyes, or the like.

[stoutstien]

Not directly related to hold person but centaurs can be a monstrosity MM or fey if using the playable race.
Strangely minataur are humanoid playable race but also monstrosity in MM.
I know it's just in one setting book but as more and more books get released things like this are bound to pop up.

[Millstone85]

Not directly related to hold person but centaurs can be a monstrosity MM or fey if using the playable race.
Strangely minataur are humanoid playable race but also monstrosity in MM.
I know it's just in one setting book but as more and more books get released things like this are bound to pop up.At least they acknowledge these differences.


Your centaur character has the following racial traits. These traits are also suitable for the centaurs of other worlds where there are centaurs of fey origin. These centaurs are smaller than the non-fey centaurs that roam in some realms.This one makes sense to me. Though I would see all centaurs as being of fey origin, just some more recently than others.


Your minotaur character has the following racial traits. These traits are also suitable for minotaurs in other D&D worlds where these people have avoided the demonic influence of Baphomet.I like the concept of removing an otherworldly influence to widen a creature's range of alignments. But I am not sure about the shift from monstrosity to humanoid. First, gnolls are already humanoids in the MM, despite being linked to Yeenoghu like minotaurs are to Baphomet. And if, as PhantomSoul suggested, minotaurs are monstrosities because of association with real-world mythology (which makes no sense in-universe), then nothing on Ravnica would change that. I still think the MM says it best when it calls monstrosity a "catch-all category".