OOTS and their final (?) weapons

[rferries]

So it's looking like V is the only character who hasn't received a new magic weapon.

Belkar - +5 dagger of collision
Durkon - the new hammer
Elan - Julio's chaos sabre
Haley - +5 icy burst longbow
Roy - starmetal sword

Will s/he eventually get a staff of the magi? A magic wand or rod, perhaps? Or is there too little time left in the comic for such a subplot?

[CriticalFailure]

Does the ioun stone warrant a mention next to all those weapons? It’s pretty good but it doesn’t seem nearly as big as sone of the other ones.

[Quartz]

We've got at least one whole book to go.

[CriticalFailure]

Have the villains they’re likely to see gotten much?

[RatElemental]

Closes thing I can think of to a magic weapon V would actually use would be a blessed spellbook or the +1 caster level Ioun stone they already got. Maybe a metamagic rod?

[factotum]

V doesn't really have much need of a weapon of any sort, and he's certainly shown no inclination to use one, so I don't see any reason for an upgrade there.

[NerdyKris]

Yeah, Vaarsuvius's "upgrade" was learning to fight tactically instead of smashing everything like a hammer and nail. V's already pretty powerful, and always has been. Up until the deal with the demons, V's weakness was wasting spells and not planning beyond "cast fireball".

[Peelee]

Closes thing I can think of to a magic weapon V would actually use would be a blessed spellbook

Perhaps Boccob's?

[understatement]

Have the villains they’re likely to see gotten much?

Xykon's got new shoes!

And the MiTD has a new umbrella. And RC has...uh, shoes, I guess.

[zimmerwald1915]

Xykon's got new shoes!

And the MiTD has a new umbrella. And RC has...uh, shoes, I guess.
And whatever the bugbear shaman can make from scavenged monster parts.

As for the OP, it should be easy to notice that each character is rewarded with a new weapon as a symbol of their personal growth over an arc. Vaarsuvius's arc, however, 1) already took place two books ago, and 2) was not growth, but a fall.

[Peelee]

And whatever the bugbear shaman can make from scavenged monster parts.

As for the OP, it should be easy to notice that each character is rewarded with a new weapon as a symbol of their personal growth of an arc. Vaarsuvius's arc, however, 1) already took place two books ago, and 2) was not growth, but a fall.

Indeed. It could be argued that V's symbolic reward for that arc was the divorce.

[Aveline]

Indeed. It could be argued that V's symbolic reward for that arc was the divorce.

And the ponytail.

[Jasdoif]

Will s/he eventually get a staff of the magi? A magic wand or rod, perhaps? Or is there too little time left in the comic for such a subplot?On the subject of why Vaarsuivus doesn't use a staff....


Because there's absolutely no narrative purpose for it other than to satisfy people who want the characters to more accurately reflect common D&D player strategies, and I am actively seeking to disappoint such people so they stop expecting that. Basically, the fact that "every decent player" does something has become a reason for me to NOT do it now, just to try to get people to stop asking.

Given that I've never listed what spells V has, what possible difference would it make for him/her to cast some of them from memory and some of them from a staff, other than making more work for me to have to explain to the readers, "This spell came from the staff!"?

Also, because it would be a pain in the ass to have to keep track of one more large equipment object in every panel V appears in. Is he/she holding it? Where did he/she leave it? Which hand was he/she holding it in last panel? Malack's staff has turned into an annoyance in that regard, hence the reason he put it down right before the fight began. I'm not about to make things harder for myself for no benefit.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nonono, V became a better weapon.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nonono, V became a better weapon.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png You are not a gun! You are who you choose to be.

[Peelee]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png You are not a gun! You are who you choose to be.

I don't think I'll see a better comment for a long time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Agreed.

*golfclap*

[CriticalFailure]

I assumed Redcloak’s shoes were assumed to be there in the previous art but not shown in detail?

wrt to magic items I doubt that there are many Xykon would let him keep.

[Kish]

I think it, shall we say, unlikely that Xykon's concerns about Redcloak/urge for petty bullying rise to the level of actually forbidding the cleric he relies on from having magic items.

[understatement]

Yes, RC's shoes will be the deciding factor in the upcoming battle.

In the semi-likely chance he and Durkon team up, maybe the ring of Energy Drain protection will come into use?

[factotum]

In the semi-likely chance he and Durkon team up, maybe the ring of Energy Drain protection will come into use?

What ring of Energy Drain protection? If you're talking about Right-Eye's ring from SoD:


That wasn't to protect against energy drain, it was to allow him to sneak attack Xykon--who, being undead, would normally be immune from Sneak Attacks. In any case, Xykon knew about the ring and had arranged protection from its effects, as he revealed to Redcloak at the end.

[understatement]

What ring of Energy Drain protection? If you're talking about Right-Eye's ring from SoD:


That wasn't to protect against energy drain, it was to allow him to sneak attack Xykon--who, being undead, would normally be immune from Sneak Attacks. In any case, Xykon knew about the ring and had arranged protection from its effects, as he revealed to Redcloak at the end.


The one he looted off Tsukiko. (I might have misremembered :smallannoyed:)

[MultitudeMan]

The one he looted off Tsukiko. (I might have misremembered :smallannoyed:)

You're remembering the right event, but Redcloak just calls it "a ring that protects her from your draining touch" when he tells the wights to take it off Tsukiko and give it to him. Wights do indeed have Energy Drain as a supernatural ability, but I don't think there's a ring named "Ring of Energy Drain protection"; my Google-fu tells me it could well be a Ring of Negative Protection (MiC, page 126, costs 36k); thanks to Slipperychicken from this forum for the info!

[factotum]

Ah, OK, forgot about that, sorry.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What ring of Energy Drain protection? If you're talking about Right-Eye's ring from SoD:


That wasn't to protect against energy drain, it was to allow him to sneak attack Xykon--who, being undead, would normally be immune from Sneak Attacks. In any case, Xykon knew about the ring and had arranged protection from its effects, as he revealed to Redcloak at the end.


That wasn't a ring, it was a dagger of undead slaying, an old minor artifact that didn't even get updated to AD&D.

[denthor]

When Belkar get a +5 dagger?

[RatElemental]

When Belkar get a +5 dagger?

That would be here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html).

Maximal efficiency enhancements likely refers to being +5 as that's as high as you can go without invoking epic rules, and collision is a psionic weapon enhancement that increases the mass of a weapon at the end point of its swing.

[Mightymosy]

And the ponytail.

Which WAS an upgrade, just so that we're clear.

Also? probably an upgrade to the aspect V most needed it (except ethics).
V clearly has had the need for a sartorial advisor for some time, given that V doesn't care for looks at all ;-)

[Kish]

it was a dagger of undead slaying, an old minor artifact that didn't even get updated to AD&D.
Citation needed.

When I read a description of a dagger that duplicates part of the effects of a greater truedeath crystal, I think "routine DM-created item," not "ancient minor artifact."

[zimmerwald1915]

V clearly has had the need for a sartorial advisor for some time, given that V doesn't care for looks at all ;-)
That is an odd conclusion to draw about someone who, per SSDT, moisturized regularly.

[wumpus]

Citation needed.

When I read a description of a dagger that duplicates part of the effects of a greater truedeath crystal, I think "routine DM-created item," not "ancient minor artifact."

Especially with the Giant, who refuses to be picky about 3.5 rules. I can't imagine him insisting that some dagger had to conform to 0e rules. You might as well try to force Roy's starmetal sword into 3.5 rules.

[Cirin]

Yeah, Vaarsuvius's "upgrade" was learning to fight tactically instead of smashing everything like a hammer and nail. V's already pretty powerful, and always has been. Up until the deal with the demons, V's weakness was wasting spells and not planning beyond "cast fireball".

Exactly.

V's "upgrade" was in the Darth Varsuuvius plot arc, where he learned there is more to magic than raw power, more to being a wizard than just hitting everything with the strongest possible spell.

He learned that even given the combined firepower of 3 of the strongest spellcasters in history, he couldn't just pop in and nuke Xykon down. . .that big blast spells may work well on mowing down goblins and orcs, but that he's got to think more about where and how to use his spells when he's facing more intelligent and powerful foes.

. . .it's not that his "upgrade" was a new weapon, but for him it was gaining new insight and perspective on how to use magic. His character development was part and parcel of his "upgrade".

V doesn't use a melee weapon, not that I can recall (if not, knowing this board, someone will pop up to correct me), but even if he got an actual Epic weapon, it wouldn't mean as much. He could get a +6 Keen Holy Dagger or a +6 Ghost Touch Quarterstaff of Sure Striking. . .but that wouldn't upgrade his actual combat effectiveness anywhere near as much as his improved perspective and tactical insight on the use of magic.

[zimmerwald1915]

. . .it's not that his "upgrade" was a new weapon, but for him it was gaining new insight and perspective on how to use magic.
People keep saying this, and I struggle to understand why, since the actual change in tactcs amounts to little more than "prepare force effects instead of fireballs in my specialist slots, and counterspell more." Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill to me.

[CriticalFailure]

Is counterspelling cinsidered part of her switch? I thought she’d already been doing it and I thought it was chosen as one of her preferred strategies because it’s not a very powerful/optimized choice for a caster.

[zimmerwald1915]

Is counterspelling cinsidered part of her switch? I thought she’d already been doing it and I thought it was chosen as one of her preferred strategies because it’s not a very powerful/optimized choice for a caster.
IIRC, then only time Vaarsuvius counterspelled before Blood Runs in the Family was in the fight with Samantha, which was part of a rules joke.

[Kish]

I give, was the rules joke "counterspelling exists" or "sorcerers can outlast wizards if they're using the same spells"? 'Cause I didn't see a joke.

[zimmerwald1915]

I give, was the rules joke "counterspelling exists"
Pretty much. The bar for humor was pretty low in 2004.

[Mightymosy]

That is an odd conclusion to draw about someone who, per SSDT, moisturized regularly.
What's a SSDT?

Pretty much. The bar for humor was pretty low in 2004.

Ah, so that's why ot worked so well at the time :-D

[Peelee]

What's a SSDT?

Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTSDr.html).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Citation needed.

Couldn't tell you, since I've long ago tossed my Judge's Guild stuff. I remember it was the item to have if you wanted to make like Conan and put the undead sorceror king* out of your misery.



*:xykon:sound familiar?

[Kish]

I'm not asking for a citation that the dagger you named exists; I'm asking for a citation that it's the dagger Redcloak's brother had, since he described medium magical item abilities and sure as death didn't say anything close to "I have an ARTIFACT here."

[Fyraltari]

Thinking about it:

Xykon says his magic rings "shield[s him] from those positive energy attacks" Does he mean just Sneak Attacks using an enchanted dagger or is he immune to Durkon using healing spells on him?

[Rogar Demonblud]

If he still has the ring after getting blown up a few times, no it won't help. Negative Energy Protection doesn't block Inflict spells, so PEP doesn't block Cures.

And Kish, I said it was a Minor Artifact back then. Since a Holy Avenger was a Major Artifact in the early days instead of a standard magic weapon, there's been a certain degree of power creep. It would probably count a mid-level magic item these days.

[Kish]

...okay, this is starting to feel like I'm in a Monty Python sketch, so this will be my last word on the subject.

What reason do you have for believing that the positive energy dagger in Start of Darkness has anything to do with any dagger that existed in any edition prior to 3.x, deteriorated or improved?

[Xyril]

People keep saying this, and I struggle to understand why, since the actual change in tactcs amounts to little more than "prepare force effects instead of fireballs in my specialist slots, and counterspell more." Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill to me.

Maybe I have an excessively low opinion of V in the early strips, but it's a bit more than that: I don't really recall V preparing spells with other party members in mind beyond the minimal utility expectations for a party spell-caster. I don't think old V would have, for example, prepared improved invisibility to synergize with Haley's sneak attack (at least not without specific orders to do so the night before.)

In a random game of D&D, the actual benefits would probably be minimal. In a loosely D&D rules based universe that's deliberately constructed to be a bit more complex (enough so that Roy's knowledge of architecture can give him an amazing situational bonus at one point), I think that it's going to be a bigger deal, particularly since the rules of narrative kind of argue in favor of V's character development mattering more.

[Mandor]

V was like the very first member of the Order to get their ultimate power boost.
the humble doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think old V would have, for example, prepared improved invisibility to synergize with Haley's sneak attack (at least not without specific orders to do so the night before.)
I don't think she did. There is nothing to suggest that she prepared the spell with the intent to use it for Haley's benefit as opposed to just preparing it and popping it on Haley when circumstances seemed to justify it. It's not as though a rogue is the only sort of person who can benefit from greater invisibility. It works just as well for wizards who cast offensive spells.


the rules of narrative kind of argue in favor of V's character development mattering more.
Why? Vaarsuvius is not the main character of the story, and if you're correct, her character development should lead her to taking fewer actions in general, and to taking those actions from a position of less prominence, not greater.

[CriticalFailure]

Why? Vaarsuvius is not the main character.

She’s one of the main six though... -_-

[rferries]

V was like the very first member of the Order to get their ultimate power boost.
the humble doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

/thread :)


I don't think she did. There is nothing to suggest that she prepared the spell with the intent to use it for Haley's benefit as opposed to just preparing it and popping it on Haley when circumstances seemed to justify it. It's not as though a rogue is the only sort of person who can benefit from greater invisibility. It works just as well for wizards who cast offensive spells.


Why? Vaarsuvius is not the main character of the story, and if you're correct, her character development should lead her to taking fewer actions in general, and to taking those actions from a position of less prominence, not greater.

Well, starting to employ haste would indicate that V was indeed shifting towards team-focused tactics. And greater invisibility is simply a defensive spell on a wizard, whereas it also greatly increases a rogue's damage output (via near-guaranteed sneak attacks).

[RatElemental]

We saw a shift in V's tactics as early as when Tarquin tried to have Roy killed. They used wall of fire to control the battlefield and give the rest of the OotS breathing room and have consistently played more of a support and control role since then. A far cry from the V that popped into Xykon's throne room expecting to brute force him to death.

Closest v came to stuff like that before the deal with the fiends was using scrolls of dismissal and mass enlarge person during the battle of azure city.

[zimmerwald1915]

We saw a shift in V's tactics as early as when Tarquin tried to have Roy killed.
"Early." It was a mere book ago.

[rferries]

"Early." It was a mere book ago.

The comic-time vs reality-time differential strikes again!

[martianmister]

I can see V with the Staff of Magius.

[RatElemental]

"Early." It was a mere book ago.

To be fair, it was a very long book. And as rferries pointed out it ended a long time ago. Nearly five years ago, in fact. The anniversary is in about 10 days.

[Quartz]

There's also V's battle with the psion. The psion bugs out when V mentions she has umpteen spells prepared.

[Xyril]

I don't think she did. There is nothing to suggest that she prepared the spell with the intent to use it for Haley's benefit as opposed to just preparing it and popping it on Haley when circumstances seemed to justify it. It's not as though a rogue is the only sort of person who can benefit from greater invisibility. It works just as well for wizards who cast offensive spells.


That's a fair point--I forgot that D&D doesn't require a separate spell to cast on someone other than yourself.

Still, V made the unilateral decision to use the spell on Haley instead of reserving it for their own use; old V wouldn't have done so except when specifically asked to, and even then, with substantial complaining. New V passes the ball all the time; old V practically throws a fit when told not to dunk.

[Rrmcklin]

Why? Vaarsuvius is not the main character of the story, and if you're correct, her character development should lead her to taking fewer actions in general, and to taking those actions from a position of less prominence, not greater.

Vaarsuvius isn't the main character, but they are one of the main characters, and such development (when done right) tends to both matter and be focused on.

But it seems like your definition of who is or isn't important to the story seems to differ from most other peoples. At least in regard to this specific character, anyway.

[AceOfFools]

In 2005, Wizards of the Coast published a spell that had no function other than allowing sneak attacks on the undead called Grave Strike in Complete Adventure. Start of Darkness came out in 2007, two years later.

A dagger that allows the user to benefit from Grave Strike (either continuously or some number of times per day) is by far the simplest explanation for what Right-Eye's dagger was, since that is literally what he says it does.

A magic item that blocks it would be fully custom (as far as I know), but in-keeping with the design philosophy of D&D 3.5.

Since Grave Strike wasn't released to the SRD and was from a book that casual fans might not own (hell, I didn't buy Complete Adventurer), name dropping it wouldn't have been as useful as it is for things like Destruction or Baleful Polymorph .