Touch spells in general, and Chill Touch in particular

[Mr Adventurer]

I have a couple of questions about how touch spells work.

This is the description of Touch range from the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range):


Touch
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

So, Shocking Grasp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shockingGrasp.htm) - which has a range of Touch - can be discharged against a target in reach as part of the same standard action used to cast it; but if you can reach more than one target, you can't Shocking Grasp them all with the same casting of the spell because it only has one target/affects only one creature. That's fine.

Chill Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) can affect up to one creature per caster level. So, if I can reach multiple creatures when I cast the spell, I can attack them all with the spell up to a total of this limit. Also fine. (Although this could be hilarious if you have a lot of reach and there are a lot of creatures around you.)

What I can't find now in the SRD is the part about how to deal with held touch spells, and making follow-up attacks, nor about delivering touch spells with unarmed/natural weapon attacks. How do I resolve the following?

I am wielding a weapon in one hand and have a free hand. I cast Chill Touch before entering melee range. In a round in which I could full attack, do I wield the spell as an off-hand weapon using the fighting with two weapons rules? I'm wielding a weapon in one hand and have claw attacks. I cast Chill Touch and hold the charge. When I later make a full attack, can I attack with my claw as a secondary natural attack (-5 from full BAB as a regular-rather-than-touch-attack, 0.5 x Str bonus, but no effect on my weapon attacks) that also delivers the touch spell? I have a weapon in one hand and am surrounded by enemies. I make a full attack using my weapon, then cast a Quickened Chill Touch. I can use the spell to attack all the enemies I threaten as part of the swift action, but, do I do that using the two-weapon fighting rules? I have BAB +6 and have cast a touch-range spell for which I am holding the charge. Can I make my first iterative attack with a weapon held in one hand, and my second iterative attack with the spell held in my other hand? Do I incur two-weapon fighting penalties for doing this?

[Kurald Galain]

if I can reach multiple creatures when I cast the spell, I can attack them all with the spell up to a total of this limit.
The common interpretation of the spell is that you get one free attack when casting the spell, and all the other ones have to be done in subsequent rounds. The WOTC FAQ confirms this.


How do I resolve the following?

Yes, that works.
Yes, that works. Note that the claw targets regular AC, whereas normally the spell would target touch AC.
As stated, the common interpretation is that you don't get a dozen attacks as a swift action.
Yes, that works. And again you take the TWF penalty, because the TWF rules are written to apply broadly.

[Mr Adventurer]

The common interpretation of the spell is that you get one free attack when casting the spell, and all the other ones have to be done in subsequent rounds. The WOTC FAQ confirms this.

Then when would "You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell." apply? :smallconfused:

EDIT: in fact, I think an interpretation which makes more sense is that you can't make attacks with Chill Touch after the round you cast it, since it's Instantaneous duration - you only get the number of attacks on creatures you can reach up to your caster level, as part of the casting.




Yes, that works.
Yes, that works. Note that the claw targets regular AC, whereas normally the spell would target touch AC.
As stated, the common interpretation is that you don't get a dozen attacks as a swift action.
Yes, that works. And again you take the TWF penalty, because the TWF rules are written to apply broadly.


So, does this mean that if you want to attack with both a weapon and a touch spell in the same round (and don't mind doing so as a normal attack rather than a touch attack), that doing so via a natural weapon is the best way - as otherwise you'll always be attracting two-weapon fighting penalties?

[Chronos]

You get one free attack as part of the casting. For willing creatures, you don't need attacks. It's a lot easier to high-five someone than to try to touch someone who's squirming away from you.

[Kurald Galain]

Then when would "You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell." apply? :smallconfused:
That sentence is about willing targets, such as for Communal Resist Energy.


EDIT: in fact, I think an interpretation which makes more sense
If your interpretation is the one where a first-level spell gives you up to twenty instantaneous attacks, then that is not the one which makes more sense :smallbiggrin:


So, does this mean that if you want to attack with both a weapon and a touch spell in the same round (and don't mind doing so as a normal attack rather than a touch attack), that doing so via a natural weapon is the best way - as otherwise you'll always be attracting two-weapon fighting penalties?
The best way is probably to get a feature or item that lets you deliver touch spells through your weapon.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah, I completely missed the word "willing". My bad!

Yes, that being the case, Chill Touch does seem to work in a weird way where it has Instantaneous duration but otherwise persists as long as the charge is held until all its attacks are used...

For the character I'm building, I don't have/want to us the character resources to get spell channelling. Just trying to work out how to sword-and-spell in melee without it.

[Falontani]

Isn't chill touch a round/level duration?

[Mr Adventurer]

Not according to the SRD.

How do multiple-touch spells like Chill Touch work with spell channelling from Duskblade? How about with a Spell Storing weapon?

[Troacctid]

The rules for multiple attacks with a single instantaneous spell are crystal-clear in this case.

If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur during that standard action. The caster uses the highest applicable attack bonus for each attack in such a case.
You make all attacks as part of the standard action used to cast the spell.

[Mr Adventurer]

How does that work with holding the charge? Is it still a standard action, or is it an attack action?

Is it even possible to attack with a weapon in one hand and a touch spell in the other hand in the same round without extra actions?

[Unavenger]

So, while Troacctid is correct, I would definitely ask your DM - not all DMs favour this interpretation, because it's relatively trivially not intended to work like that.

You can't usually two-weapon fight with a touch spell: you're generally better off playing the Duskblade class (PH2 page 19) and using that to channel your touch spell through your weapon... though there's no word on how that works with multiple-touch spells like chill touch.

[Troacctid]

How does that work with holding the charge? Is it still a standard action, or is it an attack action?
You can continue making armed touch attacks (like normal attacks) until you touch something. At that point, the spell discharges against them and the charge is no longer held. Effectively, you end up getting only a single attack.


Is it even possible to attack with a weapon in one hand and a touch spell in the other hand in the same round without extra actions?
You can use the rules for fighting with two weapons to make an unarmed strike as an offhand attack, which will deliver the touch spell if it hits. You provoke attacks of opportunity if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, and it's a normal attack rather than a touch attack, and you take all the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting, but you can do it. Natural weapons will also work; they can be combined with melee attacks as per the natural attack rules. However, you cannot normally use a touch attack as an offhand weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting, since it is not a weapon.


So, while Troacctid is correct, I would definitely ask your DM - not all DMs favour this interpretation, because it's relatively trivially not intended to work like that.
If it's not intended to work like that, it raises the question of how it is intended to work, given that it is an instantaneous spell. You cast it and then you just...get the ability to make chill touch attacks at an unspecified future time, I guess? What's to stop you from using all your leftover spell slots at the end of the day to cast a crapload of chill touch spells (perhaps loaded up with metamagic), banking them indefinitely, and essentially having the touch attack available at will from then on?

[Thurbane]

The rules for multiple attacks with a single instantaneous spell are crystal-clear in this case.


If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur during that standard action. The caster uses the highest applicable attack bonus for each attack in such a case.

You make all attacks as part of the standard action used to cast the spell.

Even if that's RAW (which it appears to be), that's just insane!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHZvUeAdzeI


What's to stop you from using all your leftover spell slots at the end of the day to cast a crapload of chill touch spells (perhaps loaded up with metamagic), banking them indefinitely, and essentially having the touch attack available at will from then on?

I'm pretty confident that the rules clearly state that you can only hold the charge on one touch spell at a time, and if you cast another spell, the earlier spells dissipates.

[Kurald Galain]

The rules for multiple attacks with a single instantaneous spell are crystal-clear in this case.
Indeed they are. You make ONE attack as part of the standard action used to cast the spell. And then you hold the charge for the remaining ones.


So, while Troacctid is correct, I would definitely ask your DM - not all DMs favour this interpretation, because it's relatively trivially not intended to work like that.
Troactid is wrong, per the WOTC FAQ.


Even if that's RAW (which it appears to be), that's just insane!
Insane, and not RAW. And if you google for discussions on this topic in the past (here or on numerous other forums) it turns out that pretty much everybody agrees with the sensible interpretation.


I'm pretty confident that the rules clearly state that you can only hold the charge on one touch spell at a time, and if you cast another spell, the earlier spells dissipates.
Correct.

[Troacctid]

I'm pretty confident that the rules clearly state that you can only hold the charge on one touch spell at a time, and if you cast another spell, the earlier spells dissipates.
The current spell also dissipates if you touch a target. How are you making one attack per level if the spell ends after the first one?

EDIT: Also, what Inza said. 👇 You can't hold the charge on a spell that allows you to touch multiple targets.


Troactid is wrong, per the WOTC FAQ.
Sorry, which entry in the FAQ, specifically? I'm looking at it now, and the only mention of chill touch I'm seeing is under duskblade, which gives it as an example of a spell that allows you to make multiple simultaneous attacks.


Insane, and not RAW.
Which part of the Rules Compendium's text is unclear? "If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur during that standard action." Does chill touch allow its caster to make multiple attacks? Yes. Does it have a casting time of 1 standard action? Yes. QED.

[Thurbane]

The current spell also dissipates if you touch a target. How are you making one attack per level if the spell ends after the first one?

So because we disagree with one rule, we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

I think the short answer is that Chill Touch is one of those terribly worded spells that could have been written far more clearly than what it is. Mirror Image, I'm looking at you, too! :smalltongue:

Out of curiosity, are there similar spells that use the same wording as Chill Touch, or did they learn their lesson and word non-core spells more logically?

[Troacctid]

Out of curiosity, are there similar spells that us the same wording as Chill Touch, or did they learn their lesson and word non-core spells more logically?
Corrosive grasp, parching touch, scalding touch, storm touch, scorching ray, telekinesis, and meteor swarm, off the top of my head. There's also hammer, which is somehow even more confusing?

[Kurald Galain]

Which part of the Rules Compendium's text is unclear?
The part where you're quoting a single line out of context :smallamused: That line is from the section on weapon-like spells, which means instant damage effects like Scorching Ray. Spells that create an actual (lasting) weapon, such as Flame Blade or Chill Touch, are not weapon-like spells.


It's not possible to hold the charge on Chill Touch.
You hold the charge if you miss the attack roll, as with other touch spells. Why wouldn't that be possible?


I think the short answer is that Chill Touch is one of those terribly worded spells that could have been written far more clearly than what it is.
Yes, this could have been worded better. Still, the same wording is used for Frostbite, and this has never been controversial. Annoyingly, Produce Flame is a similar spell but worded differently (and such that it doesn't give you a free attack when casting).

[Troacctid]

The part where you're quoting a single line out of context :smallamused: That line is from the section on weapon-like spells, which means instant damage effects like Scorching Ray. Spells that create an actual (lasting) weapon, such as Flame Blade or Chill Touch, are not weapon-like spells.
"Any spell that requires an attack roll is weaponlike." RC 132.

EDIT: Chill touch is also given as an example of a weaponlike spell in Complete Arcane, so you definitely have no RAW legs to stand on here. Also, it is instantaneous, so I seriously have no idea where you're even coming from here.


You hold the charge if you miss the attack roll, as with other touch spells. Why wouldn't that be possible?
"If the spell allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell, you can't hold the charge—you must touch all targets of the spell in the same turn that you finish casting the spell." RC 126.

[Mr Adventurer]

Corrosive grasp, parching touch, scalding touch, storm touch, scorching ray, telekinesis, and meteor swarm, off the top of my head. There's also hammer, which is somehow even more confusing?

I'm with you. Corrosive Grasp, though, specifies that you can deliver it with an unarmed or natural weapon attack. Under this interpretation, how would that be possible, since you can't hold the charge? Does Corrosive Grasp give you the opportunity to make multiple unarmed/natural attacks as part of casting the spell?

[Deophaun]

"If the spell allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell, you can't hold the charge—you must touch all targets of the spell in the same turn that you finish casting the spell." RC 126.
Dang.

OK, amending my house rule document to ignore RC's rules on touch spells.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm with you. Corrosive Grasp, though, specifies that you can deliver it with an unarmed or natural weapon attack. Under this interpretation, how would that be possible, since you can't hold the charge?
So let's look at this logically.

Under the Tro interpretation, Corrosive Grasp cannot work with unarmed or natural attacks (in direct contradiction to what the spell says) and cannot hold the charge (in direct contradiction with the Core rules on touch spells) and directly gives up to twenty free attacks (making this level-1 spell deal substantially more damage than regular higher-level spells).
Under the commonsensical interpretation, the spell allows unarmed and natural attacks (as it states) and can hold the charge as normal (as the Core rulebooks say) and deals a reasonable amount of damage for a level-1 spell.

I mean sure, it's tempting to make your character more and more powerful, but it's pretty obvious that this is not going to fly with most DMs, or for that matter most forum users. The question comes up every couple months, and every (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?41184-How-does-Chill-Touch-work) single (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?132821-Help-me-understand-Chill-Touch!) time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204695-Corrosive-Grasp-(Spc)) it gets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240897-Hammer-Chill-Touch-Holding-the-Charge-on-Touch-Attacks-(3-5-Psionics)) the same (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207561-Touch-Spells-with-Multiple-Charges) conclusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?97149-How-long-does-Chill-Touch-last). Because the other one is just too ridiculous :smallamused:

[Fizban]

The line you're looking for is-

You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
The intent of the spell seems pretty clear to me. If it launched a flurry of simultaneous attacks, they wouldn't say "use . . .up to," they'd say something else. Combine with the normal rules for delivering offensive touch spells, which are done via melee touch attacks that take melee touch attack actions (minus the free one the turn you cast it), and it must mean that Chill Touch doesn't discharge all at once. The vast majority of touch spells do, but Chill Touch and friends aren't fully discharged until you've made the full X number of touches. Corrosive Grasp has even more hints by calling out its applying to unarmed, natural, or grappling attacks, meaning it must be capable of waiting until you launch those attacks. Unless you want to claim that was put in only for Quickened versions, without a note that you need Quicken to use it that way.

The Rules Compendium's phrasing is well, kinda dumb. The part for offensive spells says nothing about multiple targets- it says "You can hold the charge and move as defined for allies." The part about moving is simple: RC has a ruling from somewhere that actually lets you cast as a standard action, then move, then deliver the touch spell without spending an extra action, which is a huge ability, and the offense spells part is saying "hey you can do that too." But holding the charge isn't even defined under allies- it's defined later. So they are apparently explicitly referring to that bit that says you can't hold the charge on touch spells that hit multiple targets, but. . .

What touch spells allow multiple targets? Buff spells. Lots of buff spells have multiple friendly targets. And the rule that those spells can't be held is reasonable, because the touch range is supposed to be a limitation, that you need to have all your friends ready to receive it, making them difficult in combat. I can't think of any attack spells that allow multiple targets which *don't* have the special line as in Chill touch. The original rule only mentions friendly spells for multiple target touch spells at all, it clearly wasn't written with offensive spells in mind. It looks to me far more likely that someone tried to fix a rules hole they didn't understand and ended up making things worse.

Unless you think Scalding Touch and Storm Mote should deal (caster level)^2*d6 instantaneous damage, or that they're actually weirdly restricted point blank AoEs. In which case, it's not even physically possible to have more than 8 targets for a normal medium PC without filling the air around them with perfectly positioned flying creatures, possibly with them in the air themselves. I don't see any other natural reading of the "use. . . up to" phrase that isn't an X touches until discharged result.

Regarding the FAQ-

Sorry, which entry in the FAQ, specifically? I'm looking at it now, and the only mention of chill touch I'm seeing is under duskblade, which gives it as an example of a spell that allows you to make multiple simultaneous attacks.
Doesn't seem so clear to me.

How does the duskblade’s arcane channeling class
feature (PH2 20) work with spells that allow multiple touch
attacks, such as chill touch?
For a spell that allows you to make multiple touch attacks
against separate creatures (such as chill touch), you only
channel one touch of the spell through your weapon attack,
regardless of the number of touches allowed by the spell. If the
spell’s duration is instantaneous (as chill touch), its effect is
expended by a single weapon attack, even if the spell would
normally allow multiple simultaneous touches.
If the spell allowed you to make multiple simultaneous
touch attacks against the same target, treat it as if you had
targeted the enemy struck by your weapon with all the eligible
attacks.
Yeah, that's a hot mess. Anyone know of a touch spell that allows multiple touches with a non-instantaneous duration? I think I've seen a one or two divine spells in far-ranging setting books, that actually include a "rounds or until discharged" phrasing. The Sage is drawing a clear line between spells that allow multiple touches against separate creatures, and those that allow multiple against a single creature, but touch spells don't allow multiple against a single enemy creature, because they require attacks and give no provision for pulling extra attacks out of nowhere. Chill Touch is the former and only lands one touch's worth, so it's not the latter, so it's not an example of the latter.

Really it reads to me more like the central problem of the Duskblade: barely any touch spells, and the terminally unclear 13th level upgrade. The class barely makes sense if you read touch spells as melee touch only, and I have a feeling someone actually meant both melee and ranged touch spells, just by looking at that spell list (unless they intended no more than 5d6 on channeled spells of course). Even if they didn't, the second part of the FAQ ruling sure makes more sense if the Sage thought Scorching Ray could be channeled. But the Duskblade mentions discharging of touch spells that would otherwise last longer than 1 round on the 13th level ability, and the only one they have that could possibly qualify is the natural reading of Chill Touch- the Sage has provided a ruling that takes the only spell that could qualify that reminder in the Duskblade's ability, and makes it no longer work that way. Is the 13th upgrade meant to allow you to Chill Touch over multiple attacks instead of just one, or mutiply Shocking Grasp by your number of attacks, or just let you sweep the Shocking Grasp over multiple foes? Who knows!

The Sage probably doesn't, because they didn't even address the 13th level version and how it could make a massive change to what happens.

I would not use this FAQ ruling as indicative of anything. Some are good, and some are not.

Out of curiosity, are there similar spells that use the same wording as Chill Touch, or did they learn their lesson and word non-core spells more logically?

Corrosive grasp, parching touch, scalding touch, storm touch, scorching ray, telekinesis, and meteor swarm, off the top of my head. There's also hammer, which is somehow even more confusing?
Uh, what? Scorching Ray, Telekinesis, and Meteor Swarm are not worded anywhere near the others. Chill ,Corrosive, Parching, Scalding, and Storm all have the exact same "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." There is no indication that the attacks are made simultaneously, and strong indication that they can be delayed and taken over time, as a number of attacks.

Scorching Ray says "all must be fired simultaneously," Telekinesis says "Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round," and Meteor Swarm says "When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres spring from your hands." Clearly stating that you make a bunch of attack rolls due to the spell resolving, which happen right now.


For the character I'm building, I don't have/want to us the character resources to get spell channelling. Just trying to work out how to sword-and-spell in melee without it.
If you don't want to spend resources on spell channeling then don't. If you have touch spells worth casting then you don't need weapon damage added to them- the reason people go gaga for spell channeling is because you can get three different versions at the same time and drop three spells at once, which creates expensive all-in builds that aren't exactly great for game balance of any sort.

Much better to just use spells when spells are useful, and sword when they're not needed. Lower level touch spells with caster level and possible metamagic deal plenty of damage, though there are few enough you might want to ask for some homebrew. As a switch-hitter you're not supposed to be the strongest- you're more reliable. When a fighter's lack of armor piercing would slow them down, you have it, and when a mage would be holding back spells waiting for the frontline to chop down the chaff with the buffs, you're in there using the buffs to help chop them down.

And yeah, just use Spell-Storing. +1 cost is +1 cost, it's not cheap in the long run, but it works just fine. Especially once you remember that metamagic doesn't change the spell level, so you can put Empowered/Maximized/Both copies of your touch spell in there. Unless your DM decides the spell comes back out without that stuff.

[Andreaz]

On two-weapon-fighting: You don't incur penalties for using different weapons in the same set of bab attacks. So if your BAB allows 3 attacks and you do sword-sword-touch, that should work just fine.

If you set up for 2wf you could, for example, do sword-sword-sword // touch-touch-touch, where 2wf penalties apply normally.

[Khedrac]

The part about moving is simple: RC has a ruling from somewhere that actually lets you cast as a standard action, then move, then deliver the touch spell without spending an extra action, which is a huge ability, and the offense spells part is saying "hey you can do that too."
This isn't the RC - it's the PHB under "Touch Spells in Combat" (pages 140/141). It is under "Actions in Combat - Standard Actions" so it can also be found in the SRD:

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

[tiercel]

The Premium PHB doesn’t seem to include the RC language of “all touches in one round”: under Combat pp.140-142, there are only references to making “an” attack (i.e. presumably singular) as part of the casting standard action, followed by “You can continue to make touch attacks round after round” under Holding the Charge (presumably chill touch is not considered fully discharged while uses remain, or until another spell is cast, dissipating the held touch spell) — “discharge” does not seem to be explicitly-to-RAW-lawyerly-specification defined for touch spells that have more than one use/charge.

This would seem to at least give RAW grounds for an in-game ruling that you can touch-attack once during the casting round, and thereafter as many times in a round as BAB allows (modified by TWF, haste, etc) as long as uses/charges remain, and the touch spell is not otherwise dissipated (e.g. by casting another spell).

[Troacctid]

I'm with you. Corrosive Grasp, though, specifies that you can deliver it with an unarmed or natural weapon attack. Under this interpretation, how would that be possible, since you can't hold the charge? Does Corrosive Grasp give you the opportunity to make multiple unarmed/natural attacks as part of casting the spell?
No, it only gives you one touch attack per level. The unarmed attack is just once. Of course, you can deliver touch spells with Improved Unarmed Strike, but IIRC the unarmed strike damage is dealt as extra damage, which should mean it would only apply to the first attack?


The line you're looking for is-

The intent of the spell seems pretty clear to me. If it launched a flurry of simultaneous attacks, they wouldn't say "use . . .up to," they'd say something else. Combine with the normal rules for delivering offensive touch spells, which are done via melee touch attacks that take melee touch attack actions (minus the free one the turn you cast it), and it must mean that Chill Touch doesn't discharge all at once. The vast majority of touch spells do, but Chill Touch and friends aren't fully discharged until you've made the full X number of touches. Corrosive Grasp has even more hints by calling out its applying to unarmed, natural, or grappling attacks, meaning it must be capable of waiting until you launch those attacks. Unless you want to claim that was put in only for Quickened versions, without a note that you need Quicken to use it that way.
How is that intent clear? The rules actively contradict that reading in multiple unambiguous ways.


Unless you think Scalding Touch and Storm Mote should deal (caster level)^2*d6 instantaneous damage, or that they're actually weirdly restricted point blank AoEs. In which case, it's not even physically possible to have more than 8 targets for a normal medium PC without filling the air around them with perfectly positioned flying creatures, possibly with them in the air themselves. I don't see any other natural reading of the "use. . . up to" phrase that isn't an X touches until discharged result.
Regardless of what they SHOULD do, it's very clear what the rules say they DO do. I don't think shapechange should give you xp-free wishes, or that ray of resurgence should remove racial Strength penalties...but I didn't write the spells.


Anyone know of a touch spell that allows multiple touches with a non-instantaneous duration? I think I've seen a one or two divine spells in far-ranging setting books, that actually include a "rounds or until discharged" phrasing.
Rusting grasp is right there in core.

[liquidformat]

Is it just me that avoids the rules compendium like the plague? I mean seriously the thing is a hot mess and rarely seems to have anything useful that doesn't break games...


Anyone know of a touch spell that allows multiple touches with a non-instantaneous duration?
Produce flame is the first that comes to mind and how I normally handle touch spells like chill metal


On two-weapon-fighting: You don't incur penalties for using different weapons in the same set of bab attacks. So if your BAB allows 3 attacks and you do sword-sword-touch, that should work just fine.

If you set up for 2wf you could, for example, do sword-sword-sword // touch-touch-touch, where 2wf penalties apply normally.

I am surprised it took this many posts for someone to point out how iteratives work...


Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Bolded the important part for chill touch functionality...

[Troacctid]

Is it just me that avoids the rules compendium like the plague? I mean seriously the thing is a hot mess and rarely seems to have anything useful that doesn't break games...
It fixes a lot of dysfunctions from the core rules. Lava, light and darkness, nonabilities, multiclass spontaneous casters, and spellbooks all got some important revisions, for example.

[Kurald Galain]

By the way, "Chill touch follows all the rules for holding the charge on a touch spell except that a chill touch spell has one “charge” per caster level". From the Official Game Rule FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a), page 55. So yeah, this was settled over a decade ago :smallcool:

[Troacctid]

By the way, "Chill touch follows all the rules for holding the charge on a touch spell except that a chill touch spell has one “charge” per caster level". From the Official Game Rule FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a), page 55. So yeah, this was settled over a decade ago :smallcool:
Sorry, where on page 55?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/542823058436784129/unknown.png
I don't see that anywhere on here.

[Thurbane]

I think it might be from the 3.0 FAQ, which interestingly, has MUCH more to say on Chill Touch than the 3.5 FAQ.

[Twurps]

Thank you Thurbane, for clearing that up. (And saving me from a 3rd even more thorough search through the 3.5 FAQ).

I've been wrestling with proper determination of RAW around chill touch in the past, and found it a mess I couldn't find my way out of. So I've read this thread with a lot of interest. I gotta say: I'm not sure I like the implications, but Troacctid seems to have the rules nailed for me.

RC as quoted by Troacctid is very clear and consistent.
As for the legitimacy of the RC: It's more recent that the 3.0 FAQ, so should be the most recent rulings on the topic. Also. It's an actual book. Where the FAQ is, wel... not. (Normally this forum is very swift in dismissing FAQ in RAW discussions, even if it does make sense and was writen after/as clarification of a non-functional rule.)

So RAW, I'm going with Troacctid. In actual play though, I might go with something closer to the 3.0 FAQ :P

[Thurbane]

From the 3.0 FAQ, in case it may be useful:


Most touch-range spells have instantaneous durations. So
how do they work? Is the action that you use to cast the
spell the same action that you use to touch someone? The
chill touch spell is particularly hard to use. If it has an
instantaneous duration, there is no way the caster could get
multiple attacks; however, it is obvious that you are
supposed to get more than one touch with it because of the
number of targets.
In the case of touch-range spells, the duration refers to how
long the magic lasts once you touch the target, though there are
one or two oddballs, such as shocking grasp, that are described
in a slightly different way. When you cast a spell with touch
range, you can try to touch a recipient on the same round you
cast the spell (see Touch Spells in Combat on page 125 of the
Player’s Handbook).
If you do not touch a recipient on the round you cast the
spell, you hold the charge until you do touch a recipient or until
you cast another spell; see Touch Spells and Holding the
Charge on page 151 of the Player’s Handbook. In the case of
the chill touch spell, the spell remains until you make your
allowed number of touches (you lose one charge each time you
touch something) or until you cast another spell.


If the duration of a chill touch spell is instantaneous, how
long does the damage and Strength loss from the spell last?
A chill touch spell’s effects are instantaneous, but they have
lasting consequences. There are many such examples in the
rules. A fireball spell, for example, creates an instantaneous
burst of fire, but the damage it causes remains behind after the
spell’s magical effect is gone. Normal damage from a chill
touch (or a fireball) spell remains until healed or cured. The
Strength damage heals at the rate of 1 or 2 points each day, or
until restored, just like any other kind of temporary ability
damage (see Healing Ability Damage on page 129 of the
Player’s Handbook). Also see the question on healing ability
damage.


When a character casts chill touch, the caster’s hand
glows blue and a successful touch attack with the hand
causes damage and perhaps Strength damage, too. Could a
character have chill touch in effect and use a weapon in the
other hand? If so, would the normal penalties for attacking
with two weapons apply?
Chill touch follows all the rules for holding the charge on a
touch spell except that a chill touch spell has one “charge” per
caster level. Each time you touch anything with your hand, you
lose one charge off the chill touch, but anything you already
had in your hand when you cast the spell doesn’t count as being
touched. You can’t have two chill touch spells running at once,
because if you cast a spell while holding a charge, the whole
spell you’re holding dissipates.
Otherwise, you can indeed use the hand bearing the chill
touch effect as a weapon. When you’re using the two-weapon
fighting rules, your own hand is a light weapon for you.

[Fizban]

This isn't the RC - it's the PHB under "Touch Spells in Combat" (pages 140/141). It is under "Actions in Combat - Standard Actions" so it can also be found in the SRD:
Ah, that's why- it's an important piece of touch spell use that isn't in the magic section. Not from a different book, but RC puts it in the same spot as the rest of the touch spell rules.


How is that intent clear? The rules actively contradict that reading in multiple unambiguous ways.
Because it's extra text that no other touch spell has, even those that target "creatures touched up to X," so it must be some sort of exception. Other spells that launch their attacks simultaneously say so. Chill Touch clearly allows multiple attacks, it does not do so simultaneously, what other meaning could this special line have?


Rusting grasp is right there in core.
Ah, that's where it was. The others were Rusting Grasp-likes. So there is an example- but Duskblade doesn't have it, so it's still not an example of why the Duskblade has that mention of cutting you off at one touch. Chill Touch is the only spell they have that could trigger that line, indicating that's how the Duskblade writer thought it worked. Unless they were thinking of Scorching Ray, and we return to the question of whether touch spells means touch spells.

Also note that Rusting Grasp doesn't give a number of touches- it specifically lasts for a duration during which you can make one per round, with no actual number of uses. Chill Touch says you can use it up to one time per level, without giving a time limit or a cap on how often you can use it. One spell is defined by its "Duration: See text," and the other is defined by body text about number of uses.


Produce flame is the first that comes to mind and how I normally handle touch spells like chill metal
Produce Flame isn't a touch spell- it's a zero range effect you can attack with, which happens to use touch attacks. Heat/Chill Metal only deal damage to the person holding the equipment- I'd allow a grappled person to take the same damage, but a Heat/Chill'd weapon isn't something you can normally attack with. It is worse than any similar effect though, so no major problems if you allow it anyway.

I think it might be from the 3.0 FAQ, which interestingly, has MUCH more to say on Chill Touch than the 3.5 FAQ.
Given how often I refer to 3.0 for the original intent of spells, I should have thought of checking the 3.0 FAQ. And there it is. In fact, I think I actually just read straight through it once back in the day- though I never needed confirmation on what Chill Touch was supposed to do, that definitely would have cemented the Way it Worked.

[Mr Adventurer]

Thank you Thurbane, for clearing that up. (And saving me from a 3rd even more thorough search through the 3.5 FAQ).

I've been wrestling with proper determination of RAW around chill touch in the past, and found it a mess I couldn't find my way out of. So I've read this thread with a lot of interest. I gotta say: I'm not sure I like the implications, but Troacctid seems to have the rules nailed for me.

RC as quoted by Troacctid is very clear and consistent.
As for the legitimacy of the RC: It's more recent that the 3.0 FAQ, so should be the most recent rulings on the topic. Also. It's an actual book. Where the FAQ is, wel... not. (Normally this forum is very swift in dismissing FAQ in RAW discussions, even if it does make sense and was writen after/as clarification of a non-functional rule.)

So RAW, I'm going with Troacctid. In actual play though, I might go with something closer to the 3.0 FAQ :P

I agree.

In which case - quickening Chill Touch or its cousins means you miss out on all the other attacks you would otherwise get on targets you can reach, because it's no longer a standard action to cast.