Phylactery crafting on a Budget

[Jowgen]

Being a Lich is pretty cool, but you know what is not cool? Paying 120000 gp and 4800 xp to craft a phylactery.

So I've been perusing the cost reduction handbook to come up with a good cost/reward ration method for cost reduction.

The primary focus is the gp cost, as farming exp for crafting can be done in a variety of ways, even without relying on the river.

The single biggest cost reducer I've found is using the mending function of Craft Wondrous Item.


You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

To my knowledge, there is nothing to prevent an aspiring Lich to craft their phylactery by means of recycling an old one. After all, the previous owner is destroyed and fixing the phylactery won't bring them back, so you are still "creating a magic phylactery" in which to store your life force, even if its not from scratch.

Now obviously you can't just go to your local store and pick up a broken Lich phylactery. And any currently unliving Lich worth their gravedust will keep that thing well safe. It might be comparatively easier to instead track down a Grisgol (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a&page=4) and kill it, although it is a rather nasty CR 15 construct.

So I am looking for recommendations for how to efficiently track one down and kill it with the least amount of hassle.

If a broken phylactery isn't at hand, the next best raw material would be Fey Cherry wood, as "items made from fey cherry wood cost 10% less gp and XP to enhance magically".

Another set of 10% reducers would be the Artificer Dump magical location and having a sufficiently high affiliation score with certain organisations, but this is real setting specific so I'd rather disregard them.

Which leaves cost reducing feats, and there are quite a few to choose from.


Choose one item creation feat that you possess. When you make an item with that feat, you pay only 75% of the normal cost to create the item.

When determining the gold piece cost in raw materials you need to craft any item, reduce the base price by 25%.

When you make magic arms and armor or wondrous items, you pay only 75% of the normal gold-piece cost to create the item. However, the item is always cursed; with the curse randomly determined by the DUNGEON MASTER, using the tables in Chapter 7 of the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide.

Blood Artisan is usually a terrible pick, but in this case its actually quite decent. The phylactery is only supposed to exist, not be handled, produce a specific effect or do much of anything, so the curse is a bonus security feature if anything as far as I can tell. Another advantage is that it doesn't have any pre-requesites (aside form being regional), so you can grab a lowly 1st level bloke with the feat of the street and get them to help you.

Now of course this brings on the age-old headscratcher of how these stack, if at all.

Blood and Magical both specify "75% of the normal cost", so I don't think they stack together. In this specific instance, I don't think extraordinary artisan works at all, because a Phylactery doesn't have a base price.

So we have either Broken Phylactery + Blood/Magical artisan, or Fey Cherry + Blood/Magical artisan.

With the Broken Phylactery, I think the "normal cost" for the purposes of the artisan feat is 60.000 gp, since the feat specifies the 50% discount, so 75% of that gives us 45.000 gp (not 30.000).

With the Fey cherry wood, I think the 10% and 75% stack together on the same level, giving us a 35% discount, for a cost of 78.000 gp.

That's all I got so far.

Opinions? Suggestions? Criticisms?

[unseenmage]

I saw someone the other day insisting that lich phylacteries are not magic items, so theres that.

There's also Roboemperors wish scroll magic item creation.

Could just stab yourself with a sliver if Thinaun steel as the culmination of your undeath ritual and then viola, cheap soul storing object.
Animate that then cast Imprisonment on it to hide it away.

[RoboEmperor]

There's also Roboemperors wish scroll magic item creation.

If you use Ambrosia or Liquid Pain it's free. Otherwise you gonna have to cough up 14,600xp unless you grab Extract Demonic Essence. Then it's 7,300xp.

[Jowgen]

I saw someone the other day insisting that lich phylacteries are not magic items, so theres that.

As a magic item, it receives saving throws against magical effects that can affect objects

Well someone is indeed quite wrong. So moving on...


There's also Roboemperors wish scroll magic item creation.

Could just stab yourself with a sliver if Thinaun steel as the culmination of your undeath ritual and then viola, cheap soul storing object.
Animate that then cast Imprisonment on it to hide it away.

Using Wish might be workable if the template acquisition use from Savage Species with the Spellcraft checks and whatnot is in play. Then you could argue that you're using Wish to replace the usual acquisition method of crafting a phylactery, ending up with a phylactery in the process.

If so, it might make for a more cost effective method, although it is gated behind a much higher level spell and skill checks. For now, I shall elect to keep focusing on the standard crafting approach.

By RAW I don't see how thinaun could make a replacement, although on the other hand I do wonder if there might be any fun to be had with a phylactery that can also store a soul...

[unseenmage]

Wait... does a lich HAVE a soul? Would a Thinaun weapon gank the soul before it can retreat to a phylactery?

Or does the phylactery safeguard the negative energy conciousness of the undead with no soul involved?

[Jowgen]

Wait... does a lich HAVE a soul? Would a Thinaun weapon gank the soul before it can retreat to a phylactery?

Or does the phylactery safeguard the negative energy conciousness of the undead with no soul involved?

The rules are kinda unclear. The term commonly used is "life force", but other sources say "spirit". The Sage FAQ says no to thinaun ganking Liches, but his reasoning was that life force =/= soul... so really, YMMV.

[Deophaun]

Even if that worked, I wouldn't do it. The thing has a history that you haven't controlled. That's a point of vulnerability.

[unseenmage]

Does Thinaun RAW say that it only grabs the souls of creatures "slain" with it?

If so even if the Lich has a soul or soul analogue it's safe since undead are destroyed.

Also means two Animate Objects-ed, soul filled, Thinaun weapons rock-em-sock-em style duking it out can't grab the souls each other contain.

[Jowgen]

Does Thinaun RAW say that it only grabs the souls of creatures "slain" with it?

It actually uses the term "dies", so constructs and undead are safe according to RAW, though it is rather stupid.

[unseenmage]

It actually uses the term "dies", so constructs and undead are safe according to RAW, though it is rather stupid.

Hm, in a 3.P game that safeguards Soulbound constructs too.

That said, in a 3.P game the Trompe L'oeil template gives you a pseudo phylactery in the bound oil painting.

[Jowgen]

I looked into it and found this


Similarly, liches are characters who’ve voluntarily transformed themselves into undead, trapping their souls in skeletal bodies.

So the apparently idea is that the Phylactery holds the "life-force", which acts as a magnet for the Lich's soul, so instead of passing on upon destruction is gets pulled into the phylacteries vicinity, where it can pull itself back together into physical form. Also, according to the Grisgol entry, a Lich who hasn't rejuvenated yet is in "limbo". Although I doubt they meant the outer plane Limbo, if you do take it as such, that is quite interesting. Anycase, under this logic, Thinaun should work to pause the rejuvination. Unless you argue that the phylactery's pull is stronger. So YMMV still.

Anycase, this tangent aside, anyone else have any other input on the crafting or finding/killing a Grisgol?

[Lapak]

I can tell you for certain that if you were at my table and decided to build a phylactery using another lich's broken one(!), while using a feat that makes the end-item cursed(!!!!), you would end up with some serious side effects.

First thing to comes to mind is probably personality leakage, as the remnants of the other lich's personality started expressing in your unliving mind. Ego battles as against an intelligent magic item. But for sure something terrible. The point of that feat is not to end up with a further benefit. :smalltongue:

[RoboEmperor]

A scroll of Wish with 14,600xp in it costs 76,825gp and costs you 0xp. So get an NPC to craft it and you save 43,175gp and 4800xp.

Savage Species race change rules don't apply here unless you want it to apply. If you use wish solely to make the phylactery then you can use it to do whatever it is that turns you into a lich. If you use Savage Species rules to get a Lich Template, that only costs a flat 5,000xp but you wouldn't have a phylactery, or you would get one but this is all "ask your DM" territory so I wouldn't recommend it.

[Telok]

Is magical archetecture an option?

[Jowgen]

I can tell you for certain that if you were at my table and decided to build a phylactery using another lich's broken one(!), while using a feat that makes the end-item cursed(!!!!), you would end up with some serious side effects.

First thing to comes to mind is probably personality leakage, as the remnants of the other lich's personality started expressing in your unliving mind. Ego battles as against an intelligent magic item. But for sure something terrible. The point of that feat is not to end up with a further benefit. :smalltongue:

Whatever the case, much fun to be had for sure :smallwink:


A scroll of Wish with 14,600xp in it costs 76,825gp and costs you 0xp. So get an NPC to craft it and you save 43,175gp and 4800xp.

Savage Species race change rules don't apply here unless you want it to apply. If you use wish solely to make the phylactery then you can use it to do whatever it is that turns you into a lich. If you use Savage Species rules to get a Lich Template, that only costs a flat 5,000xp but you wouldn't have a phylactery, or you would get one but this is all "ask your DM" territory so I wouldn't recommend it.

So if I read you correctly, the phylactery-in-a-bottle Wish scroll would save 1.175 gp copared to the Artisan Feycherry model, while being 31.825 gp pricier than the Artisan Recycled model, albeit saving the entire xp cost on both? If so, it IS worth considering.

Not a fan of the Savage Species system for this either, although I do imagine that if someone tried to wish for a phylactery to become a lich, that is what most DMs would refer to, though YMMV of course.


Is magical archetecture an option?

Phylacteries always need to be tiny, while the requirement for wondrous architecture is that the item be at least bulky enough to be hard to move, or entirely immobile, so I don't think that can be reasoned; although it would be a neat option.

[RoboEmperor]

Not a fan of the Savage Species system for this either, although I do imagine that if someone tried to wish for a phylactery to become a lich, that is what most DMs would refer to, though YMMV of course.

I really don't see the difference between creating the phylactery with Craft Wondrous Item or Wish. It's not a greater effect which the Savage Species rules invoke. It's a safe RAW written method. So your DM really can't invoke the savage species stuff, not that it really matters because the savage species wish for race change is actually the best way to change race in the entire book.

So the only problem left is figuring out how you're gonna find/buy a 14,600xp scroll of wish.

[Zaq]

There's always using the sacrifice rules for Dark Craft Gold and/or Dark Craft XP. I mean, the fluff says that creating a phylactery involves some kind of unspeakably evil ritual, right? Doesn't get much more evil than sacrificing sapient beings just so you can save a few pennies. I mean, if we want to look backwards and argue after the fact, maybe that's a justification of why it's so expensive—specifically to encourage evil power-seekers to take the cheap way out by conducting evil sacrifices. (Sure, that's applying a just-so story after the fact, but eh, it's all fluff anyway.)


I can tell you for certain that if you were at my table and decided to build a phylactery using another lich's broken one(!), while using a feat that makes the end-item cursed(!!!!), you would end up with some serious side effects.

First thing to comes to mind is probably personality leakage, as the remnants of the other lich's personality started expressing in your unliving mind. Ego battles as against an intelligent magic item. But for sure something terrible. The point of that feat is not to end up with a further benefit. :smalltongue:

I mean, I agree with 99% of this. Using Blood Artisan with a preexisting phylactery really should result in some kind of entertainingly horrible effect. We're totally seeing eye-to-eye there. That's not even tempting fate so much as just begging to be walloped with some kind of horrific answer telling you exactly what is, in fact, the worst than can happen.

That said, a feat is still a feat. The point of taking every feat is to gain some kind of benefit. Those benefits aren't always what people claim them to be, and not every feat's benefit is of equal value, but every feat should, in fact, confer a benefit upon the character who takes it.

So yeah. Blood Artisan is not going to make a good phylactery for you, but I don't think it's appropriate to say that the point of a given feat is not to gain a benefit.

[Lapak]

I mean, I agree with 99% of this.
...
So yeah. Blood Artisan is not going to make a good phylactery for you, but I don't think it's appropriate to say that the point of a given feat is not to gain a benefit.
Oh, for sure - I was unclear. The benefit is the discount, not a useful curse on an item you want to keep other people from messing with.

[Jowgen]

Oh, for sure - I was unclear. The benefit is the discount, not a useful curse on an item you want to keep other people from messing with.

The curse rules are a tad dysfunctional as is, especially when applied to an item whose only function is to exist (invalidating the point of a lot of curses), so some DM adjustment is required, but if it is rolled on the tables they are supposed to be as written, there are some real gems in there.

Like on the drawback table, there is a 10% chance of getting "Character becomes selfishly possessive about the item" or "paranoid about losing the item and afraid of damage occurring to it", which is just a great curse to afflict someone with upon them prying your phylactery from its resting place with the intention of destroying it. A real Isildur moment. Right there.

[Telok]

Phylacteries always need to be tiny, while the requirement for wondrous architecture is that the item be at least bulky enough to be hard to move, or entirely immobile, so I don't think that can be reasoned; although it would be a neat option.

Well that's not a problem. We just need really tiny people (or lots of compression) to build itty bitty buildings that can't be moved. Build a teeny house out of fine sized immovable rods? As a bonus most PCs won't bother a random tiny dollhouse apparently glued to the floor, especially if it's in a room full of those creepy doll golems. They'll just fireball that crap and keep moving.

Bonus points for some sort of compression field that shrinks everyone inside to fine size so the PCs end up fighting the lich inside the phylactery?