Epic Artificer Help

[abramblett]

So, i've been invited to a 3.5 game that'll go from level 1 and head all the way to high tier epic level shenanigans. Despite 3.5 being the first pen and paper game i've ever been introduced to, i've never actually gotten a chance to use the system! As such, there are many things I am unaware of from magic items to feats and how to optimize certain classes.

Usually, I frown upon optimization but i'm afraid i'm going to have to for my particular case. My current party consists of a Crusader and Swordsage from Tome of Battle, a werebear barbarian (Who's being scaled down to fix the power difference), and a Warlock from Complete Arcane. We had no healer or full caster and despite my requests, little of the party seems to want to invest in ranged options (The warlock wants to prestige into Ur-Priest, which has it's own series of problems.)

It fell to me to cover these roles until the Ur-Priest can start casting spells (And even then, knowing the player behind them, I have some doubts). I made the decision to be a Warforged Artificer. I thought to take the first two Warforged Artificer substitution levels and ignore the last. Hopefully, I want to remain an artificer, even when I reach epic.

How can I optimize to best fit these several roles? Any magic in particular I need scrolls of? Any feats that'd be mandatory to help out? Any constructs that'd make my life easier? Any suggestions to feat progression or item progression/suggestions would be wonderful! After all, I have to disable traps like a rogue, heal like a cleric, be prepared like a wizard, and deal enough damage like a archer.

[RoboEmperor]

Create Scrolls of Simulacrum and create monsters to fill those roles.

For example. A Balor has 20hd. A Balor can advance up to 60hd. In other words, a caster level 30 Scroll of Simulacrum can create a 30hd Balor. The maximum hd of a creature you can create with Simulacrum is half the maximum hd a creature can have. Use the feat Eschew Materials, the spell Summon Component, or a Scroll of Miracle replicating Simulacrum to avoid needing to get the piece of hair or nail of the creature.

Your build does not matter in the slightest bit. Though it might be a good idea to get some cost reducers like Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, and Magical Artisan.

If you're allowed to do anything cast Fabricate on a vial of Liquid Pain to turn it into 3 vials of Liquid Pain. And cast Fabricate on that to get 9 Vials, then 27 vials, etc. to make all of your crafting XP free. Then craft Scrolls of Wishes and use them to create magic items such as the Iron Colossus which will be strong enough to handle a lot of epic creatures.

One good Simulacrum would be Solar. They are 20th level clerics so they can take care of all of the party's healing and spellcasting needs.

So in conclusion, spam scrolls of simulacrum and scrolls of wish.

[Yogibear41]

If you're allowed to do anything cast Fabricate on a vial of Liquid Pain to turn it into 3 vials of Liquid Pain.

I'm curious how you came up with this. How does casting Fabricate allow you to triple your liquid pain. Unless you are saying 1 liquid pain is 1/3 the components for 3 liquid pains, seems like a stretch to me.

Also what level is the party, and when does the warlock plan to start taking Ur-Priest levels.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm curious how you came up with this. How does casting Fabricate allow you to triple your liquid pain. Unless you are saying 1 liquid pain is 1/3 the components for 3 liquid pains, seems like a stretch to me.

That is the stretch. Alternatively you could just planar bind a Rejkar and have him spam his at-will fabricate on 1/3 of Liquid Pain to make 1 vial of Liquid Pain. Alchemical items are not magical, and Liquid Pain is explicitly said to be an alchemical item.

[Silva Stormrage]

That is the stretch. Alternatively you could just planar bind a Rejkar and have him spam his at-will fabricate on 1/3 of Liquid Pain to make 1 vial of Liquid Pain. Alchemical items are not magical, and Liquid Pain is explicitly said to be an alchemical item.

Thats not how that works. Liquid pain is an alchemical item but it's also specifically created via the spell liquid pain.

The spell fabricate turns raw materials into their finished products. You can't use one gold coin to make three different gold coins of the same size. The spell is transmutation not conjuration, it's literally magically constructing and shifting things not transmuting the objects. I can't imagine a DM that would let that fly. And since it's kinda hard to grab "Ethereal concept of pain" as raw components it's easier to just use the spell liquid pain.

Which isn't really hard to mass produce in the first place since Kocrachons (BoVD pg 176) have it as an SLA at will meaning its a standard action to cast. Just planar bind a few of those instead of trying to squeeze a technically not illegal RAW but hilariously obviously not RAI trick out of fabricate.

To actually help the OP. Luckily for you artificers are a class where your build doesn't matter all that much since you are mostly based on crafting time. If you want to play an artificer into epic though you NEED to make sure there is downtime in this campaign before you start if you want to be crafting into the lategame.

Helpful guides;
Focusing on infusions and buffing yourself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice)
Standard Artificer Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2829.0)
The cost reduction handbook. For reducing the cost of magic items (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1000.0)
Bargin spells for artificers. You can craft at the lowest level the spell appears on ANY list. Trapsmiths have haste as a 1st level spell. Go nuts. (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12661)
List of necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)
Another helpful list of items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445114-quot-Bunko-s-Bargain-Basement-Magic-Items-That-Are-a-Steal!-quot-(from-Wizards-forum))

Artificers basically have three playstyles I see often used.
1) Wandificers, they stack a bunch of metamagics on wands and such and buff themselves with persisted buffs and proceed to melt enemy's faces.
2) Pure Crafters. They stack all the cost reduction and get some way of farmable craft XP and then craft the entire party super cheap items to make them godlike.
3) Construct spammers: Basically like #2 but focuses more on building a super melee army and equipping them rather than the rest of the party.

You have a pretty melee focused party so I would suggest going with #2 mostly. Lack of range can be mostly solved once the party gets fly speeds and teleports from your items. You can also mix and match as much as you want.


Great Low Level items for your non casters.
Shadow Cloak (3/Day Immediate action teleport 10ft plus other benefits). 5.5k
Amulet of Tears: (An incredible amount of temp hp for the price and activated as a swift action) 2.3k
Third Eye Clarity (Rarely used slot that can 1/day negate a variety of status effects) 3k
Banner of Protection against evil (20ft Radius Banner that projects protection from evil while the wielder is conscious and can be strapped to your back) It's from heroes of battle but I might have the name wrong. 8k
Belt of Healing (Stupidly cheap reusable healing) 750gp
Anklets of Translocation (2/Day swift action 10ft teleport to get out of grapples and various entangles) 1.4k

Then just grab some wands of lesser vigor for healing purposes. 750GP per wand and each use heals 11 HP over 10 rounds.
If you all worship the same god Faith healing heals 9 HP per cast but it's all at once.
If you can craft the wand yourself than you can craft wands of cure moderate wounds as a 1st level spell as the Runescarred Beserker has it as a 1st level spell. That heals 10 HP on average but again it's all up front which can be more useful than waiting to heal HP at a rate of 1/round.

Healing should pretty much only be done out of combat.

As for epic levels? You are the only real caster so you should be fine. Once you get past the early levels you can start looking into various wizard guides to pick up which are the "Best" spells to replicate.

[RoboEmperor]

While everything you said is correct and this fabricate trick is rather pointless because it will never be allowed and Simulacrum is already strong enough to do everything the OP wants. But I gotta point out inaccuracies.


Thats not how that works. Liquid pain is an alchemical item but it's also specifically created via the spell liquid pain.

You can create Liquid Pain with an alchemy check so you don't need that spell or that pain extraction machine thingy.


The spell fabricate turns raw materials into their finished products. You can't use one gold coin to make three different gold coins of the same size. The spell is transmutation not conjuration, it's literally magically constructing and shifting things not transmuting the objects. I can't imagine a DM that would let that fly. And since it's kinda hard to grab "Ethereal concept of pain" as raw components it's easier to just use the spell liquid pain.

Which isn't really hard to mass produce in the first place since Kocrachons (BoVD pg 176) have it as an SLA at will meaning its a standard action to cast. Just planar bind a few of those instead of trying to squeeze a technically not illegal RAW but hilariously obviously not RAI trick out of fabricate.

It doesn't turn raw materials into a finished product. It turns a material (worth as much as raw materials) into a product made of the same material. You don't use raw materials. You can't.

[Falontani]

There are so many artificer builds you can go with, but a lot of it deals with how your dm handles crafting.

If your dm uses the chart in the dmg as a hard and fast rule instead of a guideline (like my groups do) artificer is a "Build your own class" class. You can make wondrous items do so many different things, and have fun with most of them! Under these rules you could enchant an arrow that one time ever, when hitting a target, exploded in a fireball. Or fire melf's acid arrows. You could create at will scorching ray gauntlets and be a pseudowarlock.

If your dm only lets you create statted items then your going to rely much more on scrolls, wands, and constructs, with wondrous items augmenting but not defining your character. With this understanding we can go construct master, wandificer, or just your basic craftsman.

An artificer build I have yet to see on here:
Psiforged psionic artificer using cogzinance Crystals and their psiforged body to power powers that they know because of Power Crystals. Power Crystals function sort of like a know stone combined with a wand. You supply power points, and you can activate a power stone you possess. Using your body and the cog crystals you have power points.
(This next trick has been debated several times with no real answer available, so use your table's rai) using erudite's Spell to power acf all spells that an erudite can learn can be used as a power. Any powers that exist a psionic artificer can use to craft. So you could theoretically craft power crystals of any spell as well. Granting you access to all spells and powers for creating items. Finally in magic item compendium it specifies that a psionic craftsman can create and magic item as a psionic item if there is a direct power comparison, using stp erudite again, we have a psionic version of all spells, letting us craft any magic item as a psionic item.

Another idea: craft Hank's Energy Bow as an armbow, spec as an archer, craft arrows that you care about and fire blanks otherwise. Use other crafting times for creating eternal wands and eventually schemas of any spell you want to use for buffs, healing, etc.

[abramblett]

I greatly appreciate the information and contributions from everyone! (Even if there's some back and forth on fabricate.) :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

In response to Silva's post in particular, any recommendations to become the best crafter to have ever crafted? I know such feats like the Artisan line of feats can reduce materials and time needed to craft magical goodies. As well as restrictions that can also reduce cost. However, any other cools tricks I should know about? Any other farm heavy method of EXP gathering?

Thanks for the help thus far everyone! I really do appreciate everything and it's helped me narrow in what I possibly wanna do with this warforged.

[Yogibear41]

Sacrifice rules in BOVD can be useful for making low level items. Depending on your modifiers and if you have artisan feats, its possible to make low level scrolls for free. (you should be able to make 1st and 2nd for free with bare bones investment, could probably get up to 4th level scrolls(CL 7th) for free with the right feats and infusion choices. Of course you have to be evil and have a fresh supply of living beings to sacrifice. Nearby goblin village?

Made a handful of items with my LE Paladin Lich paralyzing and dragging of bugbears in the underdark nearby my goddess's temple once. Never really did anything outrageous though. (I just made it cheaper for my +1 and +2 on swords/shields/armor, and Enhancement bonus items)


There is also Distilled Joy which is basically the good version of Liquid Pain from Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Kalkra]

You can create Liquid Pain with an alchemy check so you don't need that spell or that pain extraction machine thingy.

Source for that?

[Hackulator]

Artificer is probably the most broken class in the game in my opinion, so like, how far do you want to go? You can get extend spell then persistent spell, get an infusion that lets you apply a metamagic feat for free to spell trigger items, and persistent buff your party to god mode, and that's just one option.

[abramblett]

As far as one can go within mechanical reason. Ideally, methods that don’t require GM stretching the rules or interpretation to ensure I have access to it.

Also, with combos like the item trigger persistent and extended metamagics, could you list how they work in conjunction? (Just explain the combo). After all, I am fairly new and some stuff I won’t be aware of.

[Yogibear41]

As far as one can go within mechanical reason. Ideally, methods that don’t require GM stretching the rules or interpretation to ensure I have access to it.

Also, with combos like the item trigger persistent and extended metamagics, could you list how they work in conjunction? (Just explain the combo). After all, I am fairly new and some stuff I won’t be aware of.


Have the Feats: Extend Spell and Persistent Spell

Cast 4th level infusion: Concurrent Infusions: gain effects of three 1st level infusions. Use on Spell-Storing Item x3

Pick 3 good buff spells to duplicate with Spell-Storing Item.

Use three, 3rd level infusions to cast Metamagic Item x3. Once for each item you used Spell-Storing Item on. Choose the Persistent Spell Metamagic feat.

You can now persist the 3 buff spells you picked.

Also you need to make UMD Checks to use the Spell-Storing Infusion. Use infusions such as Eagle's splendor(2nd) and Skill Enhancment (1st) to gain bonuses to UMD in order to make the checks.

[Hackulator]

Have the Feats: Extend Spell and Persistent Spell

Cast 4th level infusion: Concurrent Infusions: gain effects of three 1st level infusions. Use on Spell-Storing Item x3

Pick 3 good buff spells to duplicate with Spell-Storing Item.

Use three, 3rd level infusions to cast Metamagic Item x3. Once for each item you used Spell-Storing Item on. Choose the Persistent Spell Metamagic feat.

You can now persist the 3 buff spells you picked.

Also you need to make UMD Checks to use the Spell-Storing Infusion. Use infusions such as Eagle's splendor(2nd) and Skill Enhancment (1st) to gain bonuses to UMD in order to make the checks.

This works by RAW but I've never seen a DM let someone get away with going around the XP cost for spell storing item with it.

You can also just have the aforementioned feats and use the 3rd level infusion Metamagic Item on any wand with a buff spell, which you can make easily as an artificer.

[RoboEmperor]

Have the Feats: Extend Spell and Persistent Spell

Cast 4th level infusion: Concurrent Infusions: gain effects of three 1st level infusions. Use on Spell-Storing Item x3

Pick 3 good buff spells to duplicate with Spell-Storing Item.

Use three, 3rd level infusions to cast Metamagic Item x3. Once for each item you used Spell-Storing Item on. Choose the Persistent Spell Metamagic feat.

You can now persist the 3 buff spells you picked.

Also you need to make UMD Checks to use the Spell-Storing Infusion. Use infusions such as Eagle's splendor(2nd) and Skill Enhancment (1st) to gain bonuses to UMD in order to make the checks.

You can't have an item with more than one spell-storing item so you can't do spell-storing item x3. Only x1.


A single item can carry only one spell at a time.

Target: Object touched
Singular, not plural.


This works by RAW but I've never seen a DM let someone get away with going around the XP cost for spell storing item with it.

You're talking about yourself right? Because 100% of the DMs I've played with didn't care whether we were skipped the tiny xp cost with our precious 4th level infusion slots or not.

[abramblett]

Another thing i'm curious about! I've looked around and i've read a few posts but I haven't really found out an solution to my problem. I know Epic Artificers don't get access to epic spell casting normally. However, is there some trick to obtaining said epic spells? Or is it forever an impossible dream?

[Yogibear41]

You can't have an item with more than one spell-storing item so you can't do spell-storing item x3. Only x1.


you cast it on 3 different Items I never said you do it on one item.




Use three, 3rd level infusions to cast Metamagic Item x3. Once for each item you used Spell-Storing Item on. Choose the Persistent Spell Metamagic feat.




Concurrent Infusion=Spell Storing Item x3

Spell Storing 1: boots
Spell Storing 2: Gloves
Spell Storing 3: a dagger

easy enough.

[RoboEmperor]

you cast it on 3 different Items I never said you do it on one item.




Concurrent Infusion=Spell Storing Item x3

Spell Storing 1: boots
Spell Storing 2: Gloves
Spell Storing 3: a dagger

easy enough.

Again


Target: Object touched
...
you can imbue the target object
Singular, not plural.