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azule74
2007-09-25, 02:35 PM
Okay so I am making a Large Character with the Monkey Grip feat, while wielding a Spiked Chain. I am in a discussion with my DM about the reach portion of the weapon. What would the reach be and why? Also assuming that I am able to get enlarged with the spell, what is it then?

Zherog
2007-09-25, 02:40 PM
The reach would be 5' through 20'. Monkey grip doesn't change the actual reach of a weapon - that's determined by your size rather than the weapon's.

A large creature wielding a large weapon threatens at 5' and 10'. A large creature wielding a large reach weapon threatens at 15' and 20'. The spiked chain is unique in that it threatens both the "close" squares and the "reach" squares, so it'd be 5' through 20'.

azule74
2007-09-25, 02:44 PM
But the Monkey Grip allows a weapon to be one size larger. So instead of a Lg Weapon it would be a Huge sized weapon, then Colossal sized when enlarged.

Lemur
2007-09-25, 02:47 PM
Doesn't matter. The size of the weapon isn't relevant to the reach it provides, just the natural reach of the creature in question.

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 02:48 PM
About the enlargement:

If you become huge, your natural reach should go to 15'. You are wielding a reach weapon that can also strike close, so anything within 30' is fair game.

azule74
2007-09-25, 02:50 PM
Doesn't matter. The size of the weapon isn't relevant to the reach it provides, just the natural reach of the creature in question.

So you are saying that a human with monkey grip feat, with a Large Spiked chain is the same reach as with out the feat? It just increases the damage?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-25, 02:52 PM
So you are saying that a human with monkey grip feat, with a Large Spiked chain is the same reach as with out the feat? It just increases the damage?

Yes, reach is unaffected by weapon size.

azule74
2007-09-25, 02:56 PM
Yes, reach is unaffected by weapon size.

Even for a ranged weapon like the spiked chain? I know that we have all discussed it, but it is hard to get my head wrapped around.

Zherog
2007-09-25, 02:58 PM
Here's a quote for you, if it helps:



My stonechild (from Races of Stone) fighter wields a fullblade (from Arms and Equipment Guide). If he increases the weapon’s size by one category, can he still wield it, and would it give him reach?

First of all, your stonechild couldn’t wield such a weapon. While a stonechild (as a Medium creature) can wield a normal fullblade as a two-handed weapon thanks to the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fullblade) feat, he couldn’t wield a fullblade of a larger size category at all, even with the feat.

(Although the fullblade is described in Arms and Equipment Guide as a “Huge” weapon, this is a reference to the 3.0 rules for weapon size. Using the 3.5 rules for weapon sizes, the fullblade used by Medium creatures is actually a Large twohanded weapon with a special rule that allows a Medium creature to wield it with two hands.)

Normally, the smallest creature that could wield a Huge fullblade (that is, a fullblade sized for two-handed use by a Huge creature) would be a Large creature. A Medium creature with the powerful build racial trait, such as a goliath or halfgiant, with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fullblade) feat could also wield a Huge fullblade.

As to the second issue, regardless of the wielder’s or the weapon’s size, a fullblade is not a reach weapon. Even a Medium creature with powerful build who wields a Huge fullblade can use it only against creatures at a distance of his natural reach (typically 5 feet), but no more than that.

And also:



How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation?

A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.

An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon).

A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach from the weapon.

The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” . While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.


edit:


Even for a ranged weapon like the spiked chain? I know that we have all discussed it, but it is hard to get my head wrapped around.

The spiked chain is not a ranged weapon; it's a melee weapon.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-25, 02:59 PM
Even for a ranged weapon like the spiked chain? I know that we have all discussed it, but it is hard to get my head wrapped around.

The Spiked Chain is not a ranged weapon, but a reach weapon. (Bows and crossbows are ranged weapons)
And yes, appropriate sized and larger reach weapons only double your reach.

azule74
2007-09-25, 03:03 PM
Sorry that is what I meant a melee with reach. That sucks, but clears it up. Thanks!!

Ecalsneerg
2007-09-25, 03:08 PM
If you want the logic: let's say a Medium human has monkey-grip to carry a Large flagpole (don't judge me). Sure, he can lift it. But can he hit anything worth a damn at the end of the 10' flagpole?

azule74
2007-09-25, 03:12 PM
Yes he could, just not as effectivy as a someone that is bigger. Hence the -2 penality. I keep seeing it as doing more damage and also harder to hit because it is so large.

Ecalsneerg
2007-09-25, 03:14 PM
Yes he could, just not as effectivy as a someone that is bigger. Hence the -2 penality. I keep seeing it as doing more damage and also harder to hit because it is so large.
Yes, he could hit them. Yes, he could damage them. But could he manouvre it from 10 feet away to pierce gaps in armour or get under someone's guard? Could he move it quickly enough to do that and do it fast enough to do it while someone runs past you? Just wielding something that big is an achievement.

I'm not saying it's logical, it's just the logic I think they used in the feat.

azule74
2007-09-25, 03:23 PM
Good Point. I keep thinking of a normal 5~6 foot person as a Med Character, and anyone that is over 7 feet tall, as a large Character. But I can see the logic that they used when creating the feat, but I still cannot see it with the Spiked chain, the description says that you are able to attack in the 5 feet next to you. BUT I will go with the thoughts and evidence put out in the thread.

TheOOB
2007-09-25, 03:33 PM
The primary benefit of the monkey grip feat is that you gain some extra damage at the expense of accuracy. Considering that power attack already does the same thing better, there is little reason to take the feat. Little bonuses, such as large weapons having more hp and what not, are simply not worth it.