How Much Should a Wizard Cost?

[unseenmage]

So Simulacrum is a joke.
Building Trompe L'oeil, Artificial Intelligence, or Alter Egos with the Price by CR guidelines is too cheap.
Hireling prices (AaEG IIRC) are too cheap.
Slavery prices (LoM) are too cheap.
Feats in Items sidebar (AaEG) to put Leadership in a magic item is too cheap.


Is there ANY reasonable price at which one can exchange gp for minionmancying a wizard that is reasonable?

EDIT
How about if it's an underoptimized or even randomly generated wizard?

[noob]

Well getting 4 grisgols give roughly as much polyvalance as one wizard while costing way more.
As for the price by cr guidelines they are made by devs who still thinks one wizard is equivalent to a fighter of the same level.
Also if you are ready to spend time you can create conscious level 1 construct and make them level up as wizards thus replacing their first hit dice by wizard hit dice.
Or make a level 20 fighter construct and retrain it into a wizard.
you see the creators of this game due to thinking a fighter and a wizard are the same thing are allowing stuff like becoming a wizard in a bunch of weeks of retraining.
No matter what happens unless you change the entire system the whole system considers a fighter and a wizard of a given level are of the same power.

[unseenmage]

Arguably some of the listed options could be too cheap even if all you're doing is shopping in the bargain bin at the local PC class thrift store and buying slightly used Fighters too.


EDIT: Now that I think on it; Would the example prices be okay for buying underoptimized wizards?
Possible made via random generation of some sort?

[noob]

Arguably some of the listed options could be too cheap even if all you're doing is shopping in the bargain bin at the local PC class thrift store and buying slightly used Fighters too.

I agree one feat giving magic item or a simulacrum or a hireling or a slave is too cheap even for getting fighters(especially if you can mind rape the fighter afterwards).

EDIT: Now that I think on it; Would the example prices be okay for buying underoptimized wizards?
Possible made via random generation of some sort?

Jormengad did try to do the famous captain wizard: it is a wizard picking spells known entirely at random.
It ended up being quite strong.
If we make a wizard pick only evocation spells(contingency and the like excluded) maybe it will not be too strong.

4 grisgols seems quite fair as a price for the equivalent of one wizard: 840000 gold coins (phylacteries excluded because adventurers does not runs out of liches)

[Maat Mons]

If you're buying a wizard, you're buying spell access. The item creation rules have very clear guidelines for how much spell effects cost. Just take the wizard's spells prepared and his caster level, then figure out the cost of a slotless item that casts each his spell slots once per day at that caster level. Then apply an ad hoc adjustment to account for the fact that the wizard can change his spells from day to day. And, of course, make it an intelligent item, so it can activate its own abilities.

[RoboEmperor]

Typically, an adventurer’s daily fee in gold pieces equals her character level squared, plus a split of any treasure gained—usually a half share of the total loot. However, she charges ten times her normal asking price and demands a full share of treasure if her character level is equal to or greater than the average party character level.

I think this is reasonable.

[Mildly Inept]

Probably the way to do it is to have the Wizard want some horrible artifact or tome or whatever and build a quest around it. The Wizard can get his asking price anywhere, it's not like there's a shortage of people willing to pay top dollar for mastery of time and space. If you want him, you'd better have something better than currency. Plus, adds a certain level of risk that money doesn't have. Do you REALLY want to give Solomon the Black that glowing skull that screams when you touch it?

[inuyasha]

My houseruling on this is that hirelings may be bought with rules very similar to those in the DMG 2, except NPC classes don't have that 500gp tacked on at higher levels, and are instead hired with silver rather than gold pieces.

Wizards, clerics, and any other spellcaster are double the price, and the price is doubled once more for non-humans in an appropriate station (possibly more for the rarer races). Good luck finding one for hire though.

Is it balanced? Probably not, but it stays as long as my players don't abuse it, and so far there haven't been any real problems.

[Crake]

I think this is reasonable.

Came here to quote this. Any other pricing you're using is pretty much referring to cheap labour for non-adventuring tasks. Hirelings are for things like guard duty or menial labour.


My houseruling on this is that hirelings may be bought with rules very similar to those in the DMG 2, except NPC classes don't have that 500gp tacked on at higher levels, and are instead hired with silver rather than gold pieces.

Wizards, clerics, and any other spellcaster are double the price, and the price is doubled once more for non-humans in an appropriate station (possibly more for the rarer races). Good luck finding one for hire though.

Is it balanced? Probably not, but it stays as long as my players don't abuse it, and so far there haven't been any real problems.

Those prices you're referring to aren't for hirelings, they're for specialists, hired to perform a single task, like hiring a forger to fake some documents. What class they are shouldn't affect their cost, merely how good they are at their job. An expert doctor vs a rogue doctor with the same heal skill have no real reason to charge any differently beyond meta reasons.

If you're actually looking to bring people along on adventures though, you shouldn't be using the specialist prices, you should be using the adventurer prices. Personally, I also wouldn't pay double for an orc wizard.

[inuyasha]

Came here to quote this. Any other pricing you're using is pretty much referring to cheap labour for non-adventuring tasks. Hirelings are for things like guard duty or menial labour.



Those prices you're referring to aren't for hirelings, they're for specialists, hired to perform a single task, like hiring a forger to fake some documents. What class they are shouldn't affect their cost, merely how good they are at their job. An expert doctor vs a rogue doctor with the same heal skill have no real reason to charge any differently beyond meta reasons.

If you're actually looking to bring people along on adventures though, you shouldn't be using the specialist prices, you should be using the adventurer prices. Personally, I also wouldn't pay double for an orc wizard.

Oh that's right, forgot about the specialist thing! As for the orc wizard front, that's why I include the "in an appropriate station" part, because an orc-wizard wouldn't cost double, but a dwarven fighter, elven wizard, or half-orcish fighter/barbarian (or rogue if going by old-school standards) would certainly expect more (this is based on my own personal opinions, as well as a note in the Arms and Equipment Guide).

I double the cost of spellcasters because they spend years if not decades of their lives devoting themselves to this, and would definitely like to be paid more than a sword-swinging dummy any day of the week.

[Crake]

Oh that's right, forgot about the specialist thing! As for the orc wizard front, that's why I include the "in an appropriate station" part, because an orc-wizard wouldn't cost double, but a dwarven fighter, elven wizard, or half-orcish fighter/barbarian (or rogue if going by old-school standards) would certainly expect more (this is based on my own personal opinions, as well as a note in the Arms and Equipment Guide).

That's fair enough I suppose.


I double the cost of spellcasters because they spend years if not decades of their lives devoting themselves to this, and would definitely like to be paid more than a sword-swinging dummy any day of the week.

This makes sense for wizards, and probably to an extent druids and clerics, but sorcerers and bards not so much. It doesn't quite make so much sense however when you line it up next to other things though. Fighters, paladins, rangers and monks all also dedicate their life to their craft, why aren't THEY charging double?

[inuyasha]

This makes sense for wizards, and probably to an extent druids and clerics, but sorcerers and bards not so much. It doesn't quite make so much sense however when you line it up next to other things though. Fighters, paladins, rangers and monks all also dedicate their life to their craft, why aren't THEY charging double?

In this case, I do consider Paladins and Rangers spellcasters, and same with Monks. No, they don't cast many spells (or any spells in the case of the Monk), but they're inherently supernatural and rare. As for why fighters don't cost double, I reason it as they aren't rare. Being really good with a sword is a dangerous profession that takes a couple years to learn, but certainly not as much as a casting class like Wizard does, and it's pretty reasonable that they'd make up a majority of the hireling market.

As for Sorcerers and Bards, that's mostly for metagaming reasons (spellcasters are better to a certain degree, and thus should cost more to me), but the former is incredibly rare, being descended from a magical creature and having enough self-control and winning the genetic lottery enough to be an NPC instead of a monster makes for a pretty limited number available. As for Bards, they're a bit of an outlier as a spontaneous casting class with an actual function in society, but they're likewise expensive for some rarity reasons and my metagame explanation. However, out of all the casting classes, Bards are more likely to be available for hire in my games (I have a "what hirelings are available today in this place" chart too).

It's incredibly biased towards my own notions, and it probably doesn't work for everyone's view of how a D&D world should operate (and certainly would be inappropriate in some settings like Eberron, Dark Sun, or Planescaoe), but I think it's kinda fun and my players like it, so that's what's important :smallsmile:. Just figured I'd throw it in here if anyone was interested.

[Crake]

In this case, I do consider Paladins and Rangers spellcasters, and same with Monks. No, they don't cast many spells (or any spells in the case of the Monk), but they're inherently supernatural and rare. As for why fighters don't cost double, I reason it as they aren't rare. Being really good with a sword is a dangerous profession that takes a couple years to learn, but certainly not as much as a casting class like Wizard does, and it's pretty reasonable that they'd make up a majority of the hireling market.

As for Sorcerers and Bards, that's mostly for metagaming reasons (spellcasters are better to a certain degree, and thus should cost more to me), but the former is incredibly rare, being descended from a magical creature and having enough self-control and winning the genetic lottery enough to be an NPC instead of a monster makes for a pretty limited number available. As for Bards, they're a bit of an outlier as a spontaneous casting class with an actual function in society, but they're likewise expensive for some rarity reasons and my metagame explanation. However, out of all the casting classes, Bards are more likely to be available for hire in my games (I have a "what hirelings are available today in this place" chart too).

It's incredibly biased towards my own notions, and it probably doesn't work for everyone's view of how a D&D world should operate (and certainly would be inappropriate in some settings like Eberron, Dark Sun, or Planescaoe), but I think it's kinda fun and my players like it, so that's what's important :smallsmile:. Just figured I'd throw it in here if anyone was interested.

That's all fair enough, monks, rangers and paladins being included in the list of "costs more because they're rare and supernatural" all fits quite well. I think I'd personally make the other classes cheaper though, rather than making those classes more expensive, since you gotta remember, adventurers also ask for a half share of any loot found.

[inuyasha]

That's all fair enough, monks, rangers and paladins being included in the list of "costs more because they're rare and supernatural" all fits quite well. I think I'd personally make the other classes cheaper though, rather than making those classes more expensive, since you gotta remember, adventurers also ask for a half share of any loot found.

Y'know, that's actually a pretty good point. I think I'll run some math and do comparisons between the two!

Thanks for hashing this out with me. My players know about and like the idea, but it really hasn't come up too much, so I haven't gotten to talk with anyone about it a whole lot.

[Crake]

Y'know, that's actually a pretty good point. I think I'll run some math and do comparisons between the two!

Thanks for hashing this out with me. My players know about and like the idea, but it really hasn't come up too much, so I haven't gotten to talk with anyone about it a whole lot.

Yeah, no problem :smallbiggrin: The campaign previous to this one I ended up getting having a very in-depth exploration of the hireling rules, because the players ended up buying and running a caravel with which they needed to hire a crew. They ended up getting a split of adventurers and specialists, people like the canoneers and ship's medical crew and cooks were specialists, while they had adventurers who were decent level come along to provide protection against pirates and to help with island explorations when necessary.

Of course, it all ended poorly when this e6 crew crossed paths with a megalodon. They managed to kill it, but the ship was taking on water, and they players pulled a titanic by only having one lifeboat! They ended up being only able to bring along one other crew member, so the ended up having to fight off a mutiny as people desperately wanted to survive. The most amusing part of the whole thing was the crew members' names, the players had named them all after famous people, so we have a joke nowadays "Ellen Degeneres fires indiscriminately into the crowd". Was one of the more memorable moments of the campaign, followed by a 1 year "stranded on a deserted island with dinosaurs and a troll" segment.

[ShurikVch]

you see the creators of this game due to thinking a fighter and a wizard are the same thing are allowing stuff like becoming a wizard in a bunch of weeks of retraining.No - actually that isn't possible:
Retraining allows you to change a small aspect of your character, but rebuilding is a much more drastic step. This method of character revision allows you to change your character's ability scores, class levels, background, templates, or even race. You can change as many of these aspects at once as you wish, though such alterations require great effort - and often great sacrifice as well.
Since rebuilding constitutes such a major change in your character’s identity, accomplishing it isn’t simply a matter of erasing an entry on your character sheet and replacing it with new information. In essence, you are altering reality in order to rewrite your character’s personal history. Therefore, to accomplish a character rebuild, your PC must complete a significant and challenging quest.
...
Ideally, a character rebuild should be a relatively rare event. Unless your world is particularly unusual, constant character rebuilding tends to undermine the believability of both the campaign and its story line. Therefore, the quest should represent a significant challenge for the characters involved. After all, if players consider a rebuild quest to be a cakewalk, they’re likely to underestimate the value of the reward.

[inuyasha]

-Snip-

Oh dang, that's awesome! I'm about to be playing in a nautically-themed campaign soon, so all of that is probably similar to what's going to happen to us soon, haha! Also, I know you wrote megalodon, but for some reason I kept reading it as mastodon at first, and I don't know why.

[Maat Mons]

Of course, it all ended poorly when this e6 crew crossed paths with a megalodon. They managed to kill it, but the ship was taking on water, and they players pulled a titanic by only having one lifeboat!

It's a shame you couldn't convince your DM to allow Feather Tokens in an e6 game.

[noob]

No - actually that isn't possible:

I was thinking about pf rebuilding rules where all it takes is a trainer as well as a bunch of weeks and of gold.

[Crake]

It's a shame you couldn't convince your DM to allow Feather Tokens in an e6 game.

I was the DM, and we were running an almost magic-free game. All of the players were entirely mundane classes, with the pathfinder automatic bonus progression to make up for numbers, and the major "loot" was either a) money to spend on roleplaying stuff, like the samurai who was dragged a thousand years into the future by spending time in the feywild (yes, everyone made constant samurai jack jokes) making a dojo to carry on the traditions of his fighting style, or b) very rare and special material-crafted arms and armor.

They did find the occasional magic item, like a rose that grew into a fountain to provide water once per day that they got from a travelling merchant in the deserts, or an augmentation gem that added +1 fire to the weapon it was attached to that they got from a young metallic dragon they encountered on the roads disguised as an old man, but such items were rare treasures, not something they would ever sell, and not something that they could just pick up at the local market.

I'm not sure what you think feather tokens would have been able to do, but the party DID have some shapesand (which, they bought from merchant traveling the golden road, a profitable trade route in my setting) that they tried to use to patch the ship, but they just didn't have enough.

[Maat Mons]

I'm not sure what you think feather tokens would have been able to do

Swan Boats are the closest thing D&D has to inflatable life rafts. And personally, if I were spending, let's say, 10,000 gp on a Caravel, spending 450 gp on a pocket-sized way to save the entire crew in the event that the ship sinks wouldn't seem unreasonable.

[Crake]

Swan Boats are the closest thing D&D has to inflatable life rafts. And personally, if I were spending, let's say, 10,000 gp on a Caravel, spending 450 gp on a pocket-sized way to save the entire crew in the event that the ship sinks wouldn't seem unreasonable.

Ah, I wasn't aware of swan boats, and neither were my players. Either way, 450gp for inflatable life rafts would have been an amazing steal, but as I said, low/no magic game, you can't just walk into town and buy something like that.