Which Intelligence bonuses affect skill learning on leveling?

[Anthrowhale]

I've been trying to track down an exact rule for when an intelligence bonus provides extra skill points on leveling. The relevant rules I've found so far are:


In Modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers)
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll.
In Basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha)
When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.
In Fox's Cunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foxsCunning.htm),
This spell doesn’t grant extra skill points.
In Tome of Clear Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofClearThought)
Because the tome of clear thought provides an inherent bonus, the reader will earn extra skill points when she attains a new level.

Rule (1) would not for example increase the save DC of a spell when the casting ability has an enhancement bonus. Instead, rule (2) implies this.

Rule (3) is phrased so it only scopes to Fox's Cunning rather than all enhancement effects. This suggests that Necrotic Empowerment for example does result in more skill ranks.

Rule (4) is phrased so any source of inherent bonus (such as a wish) also provides extra skill points. Given the placement, it's also as if there is a rule somewhere saying "inherent bonuses to intelligence provide skill points", so I'm worried that I'm missing a rule.

Based on the above, it seems that rule (2) is the general rule with rule (3) being the exception. As a consequence, every bonus to intelligence except those from Fox's Cunning provide additional skill ranks if they are operative when a character levels up. That seems a bit extreme.

[HouseRules]

The RAI of the game is that any temporary boost should not give any skill points. Fox Cunning is "caught" as one of such. RAW does not have such limitations as RAI.

Why? because players should not need to rebuild their characters so often.

[noob]

The RAI of the game is that any temporary boost should not give any skill points. Fox Cunning is "caught" as one of such. RAW does not have such limitations as RAI.

Why? because players should not need to rebuild their characters so often.

It would not change the amount of rebuilding since int gain or loss does not applies retroactively to skills so all it would mean is that if you have a temporary boost to int that is not coming from fox cunning while gaining a level you get extra skill points for that level.

[HouseRules]

It would not change the amount of rebuilding since int gain or loss does not applies retroactively to skills.

They do in pathfinder but not 3E or 3.5E.

[noob]

They do in pathfinder but not 3E or 3.5E.

In pathfinder was not the rule that boosts to base intelligence never gives skill points unless they say it does?

[HouseRules]

In pathfinder was not the rule that boosts to base intelligence never gives skill points unless they say it does?

In pathfinder, any boost to Int that does increase skill points are retroactive. Even your +1 int every 4 levels from leveling up is retroactive. This is unlike 3E and 3.5E.

[Kurald Galain]

In pathfinder was not the rule that boosts to base intelligence never gives skill points unless they say it does?
Nope. In PF, your total sp = (sp per level * your level); whereas in 3E you need to remember what your int was at each level, and add that all up. This is true regardless of whether you improved your int through leveling, Tomes, or wish spells.

[Schismatic]

I always thought inherent bonuses count. Enhancement, no... and that includes spells like FC which grant enhancement. Neither insight, either. Inherent bonuses are somewhat different however.

That being said only through Wish-level spells/SLAs.

And the only class coming to mind that gave inherent bonuses as a class feature was Heartwarder, and that was Charisma.

[HouseRules]

Yet, Helm of Intellect is an enhancement that does or does not count because it is an item, not a spell is the gray area.

[noob]

Nope. In PF, your total sp = (sp per level * your level); whereas in 3E you need to remember what your int was at each level, and add that all up. This is true regardless of whether you improved your int through leveling, Tomes, or wish spells.

even if you improve it with a way to cast fox cunning every turn?

[Warchon]

even if you improve it with a way to cast fox cunning every turn?
Rule 0: If your DM thinks that is reasonable, it works. Personally I'd lean against it but the amount of effort put into casting one spell over and over FOREVER, never missing a round including when you sleep, is going to greatly outstrip the effort put into gaining a passive bonus. (Hint: By RAW, a passive INT bonus on a crafted item IS continuous Fox's Cunning, and I've never met a DM who doesn't think worn INT bonuses should provide skill points--so long as you aren't pulling shenanigans like passing it around to your teammates the day before they level)
For that reason alone it seems unlikely you're going to get an unbalanced advantage out of it so it's probably doable at some tables.

[Zaq]

For what it's worth, the headband of intellect explicitly states that it doesn't increase your skill points when leveling up.

I've always interpreted RAI to be that temporary effects (including, but not limited to, spells, items that can be removed, and the like) don't count, but really truly permanent stuff does count. See pg. 58 of the PHB:


Your character’s Intelligence modifier affects the number of skill points he or she gets at each level (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). This rule represents an intelligent character’s ability to learn faster over time. Use your character’s current Intelligence score, including all permanent changes (such as inherent bonuses, ability drains, or an Intelligence increase gained at step 4, above) but not any temporary changes (such as ability damage, or enhancement bonuses gained from spells or magic items, such as a headband of intellect), to determine the number of skill points you gain.

Seems pretty cut-and-dried, to be honest.

Interestingly, I've never noticed that temporary ability damage doesn't affect skill points gained. It's never come up in-game for me.

[Hackulator]

Every game I play in uses retroactive skill points for permanent int bump as the bookkeeping if you ever need to refigure your skill points becomes too annoying otherwise.

[Anthrowhale]

I've always interpreted RAI to be that temporary effects (including, but not limited to, spells, items that can be removed, and the like) don't count, but really truly permanent stuff does count. See pg. 58 of the PHB:

...

Very good!

This settles everything I can think of except leveling under the effect of a permanent duration Polymorph Any Object which sets Intelligence to some value. On one hand, it's a permanent duration. On the other hand, it's subject to dispel magic. Would this count as a temporary change or a permanent change?

Edit: thinking about this further, PaO seems like it's probably in the same category as Ability Drain---in other words a "permanent" effect which can be reversed with magic. That sticks it in the "Permanent" category.

[HouseRules]

Level Gains and Level Losses (Failed saving throw vs Negative Levels).

Wish and Wish (getting cursed by some evil creature's wish to remove for inherent bonus).

Nothing is permanent in a certain point of view.

[Anthrowhale]

Nothing is permanent in a certain point of view.
That's a fair point.

Another corner case is Extract Gift, which provides a permanent enhancement bonus. I'd lump it in the 'permanent' category except the parenthetical for temporary says "such as ... enhancement bonuses gained from spells...".

[Mnemius]

Just to add, pathfinder, the +int headband doesn't give more skill points, but has the extra of grants you your level in a skill while you have it equipped. (Simulates the skill points that way.) Yes, that's 1 skill in the +2, 2 skills in the +4, and 3 skills in the +6. It's implied the skill is chosen when the item is made.

I don't remember if that became active upon donning, or after a day of wearing, that part hasn't come up for me.

[16bearswutIdo]

I can't imagine a game in which the DM sees the party casting Fox's Cunning and handing out headbands of int to people just before they level up and says "Yes, this is an intended use of the game's mechanics"

[noob]

I can't imagine a game in which the DM sees the party casting Fox's Cunning and handing out headbands of int to people just before they level up and says "Yes, this is an intended use of the game's mechanics"
Yes because it is intended to be done with rings of intelect, polymorph any object,mental pinacle and other similar effects.

[Twurps]

Yes because it is intended to be done with rings of intelect, polymorph any object,mental pinacle and other similar effects.

Your point being...? Whether this is true or not, it has very little to do with the pretty valid point of 16bears.