How early can a party face a young dragon?

[braveheart]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

[stoutstien]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

your party is probably under the impression that you would not throw a challenge at them that they cannot defeat.
Make sure that you tell the party that death is on the table.
If they continue don't try to avoid it if a party wants to attack a green dragon at level 3, let them.

[Chijinda]

One of the published adventures does in fact, have the party face off against a young green dragon at around levels 3-4, though that encounter is often a source of TPK's even then, despite the fact that the fight is made easier for the adventurers for a few reasons listed in the module.

If this is not a young green dragon, but a fully grown adult, this could be a learning experience for the party that dragons are not to be trifled with. Have NPC's tell the party they're no match for the beast. Maybe they could tell the tale of a much better equipped and experienced party trying to take on this dragon and none of them returning. Maybe as the party approaches the dragon's lair, they see the melted bones of past adventurer's that show they're not the first to tackle this fools errand. Set the scene, so the party knows that this dragon is probably going to murder them if they continue this course. When they try to delve into the dragon's lair, use the time honored GM tradition of asking them: "Are you sure?"

And if the party gets TPK'd on the first breath attack, point to all the things you did to show them how out of their league they were, and that they have nobody to blame for it but themselves for ignoring all of those signs.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

How many of them are there? What classes? Do they have any magic items?

The breath weapon DC is 14 (which isn't bad if they have Con proficiency) and the damage is 12d6 (average 42, max 72).

Barbarians will have between 32 and 35 health (+2 or +3 CON)
d10 classes will have ~28 HP
d8 classes will have ~24 HP
d6 classes will have ~20 HP

That means that an average breath weapon will insta-gib (full to perma-dead) any wizards or sorcerers that fail the save. Anyone else who fails will be dropped to zero. A "good" roll will perma-kill a d8 or d10 class, while an exceptional one will kill a barbarian.
----------------------
My recommendation:

Let them try, then have it breath on the front line but take the average damage. Then have it contemptuously say something to the effect of "you're much too early to face me. I prefer my meat with a bit more bite." and fly away. That leaves them all down unless they pass their save and signals firmly that they're way too early for that but doesn't risk gibbing any of them. Anyone who's still up can stabilize the downed ones and they should retreat to lick their wounds and find safer prey. If they don't, they're asking for a TPK. Tell them that, OOC. If they insist, go right ahead and TPK them. Can't fix stupid, after all.

[Unoriginal]

Like others have said, talking with Your players and explaining to them that yes, they will die if they try that, would be for the best.

If they insist, I would show them the full scope of draconic might.

That being said, a few things to keep in mind: young dragons are often cocky and haven't learned the limits of their powers. You could say that the dragon engages the PCs in melee and demolish them mano-y-mano, without using their breath until the moment the PCs actually hurt them and they get pissed.

And Green like toying with people, so they could rob the party of all their equipment and let them escape in the wilderness, naked and humiliated. Though killing them is much more likely and doesn't go with the "DM was soft on the players doing something dumb" problem.

Alternatively they could just encounter something on their trajectory as they try to reach the dragon, and then the dragon is too far to follow.

[Ortho]

I was in a party of 6 that managed to kill a young black dragon and its two mage henchmen at level 5. The difficulty didn't actually come from the dragon, it came from the mages. It did kill 2 party members, though.
I'd say that it is doable, but be prepared for a few deaths.

[braveheart]

Like others have said, talking with Your players and explaining to them that yes, they will die if they try that, would be for the best.

If they insist, I would show them the full scope of draconic might.

That being said, a few things to keep in mind: young dragons are often cocky and haven't learned the limits of their powers. You could say that the dragon engages the PCs in melee and demolish them mano-y-mano, without using their breath until the moment the PCs actually hurt them and they get pissed.

And Green like toying with people, so they could rob the party of all their equipment and let them escape in the wilderness, naked and humiliated. Though killing them is much more likely and doesn't go with the "DM was soft on the players doing something dumb" problem.

Alternatively they could just encounter something on their trajectory as they try to reach the dragon, and then the dragon is too far to follow.

I really like this idea, it'd give the characters a good idea of the dragon's power, and give the party the intermidiate goal of gaining new equipment as they level up.


The part is 6 players, a wizard, a rogue, a paladin, a bard, cleric, and fighter.

[Unoriginal]

I really like this idea, it'd give the characters a good idea of the dragon's power, and give the party the intermidiate goal of gaining new equipment as they level up.


The part is 6 players, a wizard, a rogue, a paladin, a bard, cleric, and fighter.

Well they might actually have a chance, given the action economy in place here.

That being said, know that humiliating the players and have their PCs go naked after losing all equipment can be perceived very badly, especially when the wizard will lose their spellbook.

So honestly I wouldn't say this part of my suggestion is the best, or even that good an idea. I know it'd work with my players, but with yours...?

[Contrast]

That being said, a few things to keep in mind: young dragons are often cocky and haven't learned the limits of their powers. You could say that the dragon engages the PCs in melee and demolish them mano-y-mano, without using their breath until the moment the PCs actually hurt them and they get pissed.

I'd flag up that hitting players a few times before unleashing the breath weapon makes instant deathing them much more likely.

I'd have them meet up with another group of adventurers who help them for a session (so the PCs know roughly how good they are) who are also looking for the dragon. Then roll/average out the dragon just doing a flyby strafing run with its breath attack and have the party find their remains/bump into the survivors. If they still want to pursue at least they know what they're getting into :smallbiggrin: Plus it'll hopefully make them realise if they're serious they need to find a way to get the advantage in the fight by dealing withe the flight and making sure they don't all get breathed on in one go.

Edit - for clarity I think with 6 people they have a decent chance at killing it...there's just also a very good chance they won't and even if they do its likely not everyone will survive.

I have definitely noticed a tendency in some of the people I've played with (particularly with dragons) that because they're there they should be fought. Probably because the game is called Dungeons and Dragons people feel compelled I don't know. In future consider carefully just casually dropping a dragon in. If its just meant to be set dressing use a creature other than a dragon and I think your players will be more happy to accept it being a thing without the sudden urge to drop everything and go kill it :smallwink:

[ad_hoc]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

This implies that a TPK is a bad thing.

If it happens it happens.

That said my general style when the characters are level 4 or earlier is to straight up tell them like an augury spell. I would just say 'you really don't want to do that' and leave it at that.

[supergoji18]

The average player character, assuming d8 hit dice and a constitution around 14 or 15, will almost certainly be one shot by the young green dragon's poison breath until about level 6 assuming they fail the save. Even then it still has a good chance of doing so, and they will be left with hit points in the single digits. Around level 7 and 8 they have a much better chance of surviving a round, after which they can be free to unleash the full fury of their spells and attacks as they see fit. Fortunately for the party, they don't have to worry about lair actions, legendary actions or legendary resistances since a young dragon isn't considered a legendary creature.

But at level 3 your players are screwed.

[Malifice]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

Simply tell them that the Dragon has a much higher CR than them, and that if they attack it, barring some exceptional luck, they likely (almost certainly) all die.

Be clear and unequivocal about it.

If they then choose to go after it, so be it.

You could tone down the Dragon (make it a Wyvern and a case of mistaken identity) if you're feeling nice.

[JNAProductions]

Make clear to them, IC and OOC, that this is a threat beyond their current capabilities.

If they insist on going after it, then have the dragon fight and almost certainly kill them. As was said above, can't fix stupid.

I would NOT just have it breathe and let them go. Not unless it's already established as the kind of dragon that'd do that.

[braveheart]

Make clear to them, IC and OOC, that this is a threat beyond their current capabilities.

If they insist on going after it, then have the dragon fight and almost certainly kill them. As was said above, can't fix stupid.

I would NOT just have it breathe and let them go. Not unless it's already established as the kind of dragon that'd do that.

I have made it explicitly clear that they cannot take it yet ooc, though in character they have not encountered a dragon before, and because of the setting the only one they've ever heard of is a gold dragon that is friendly to society.

These are not rookie players, they know that the breath weapon does more damage than any of their max HP's but they seem hell bent in dieing

[Malifice]

I have made it explicitly clear that they cannot take it yet ooc, though in character they have not encountered a dragon before, and because of the setting the only one they've ever heard of is a gold dragon that is friendly to society.

These are not rookie players, they know that the breath weapon does more damage than any of their max HP's but they seem hell bent in dieing

So they know it's a suicide mission OOC?

Why would they hunt the thing IC? What in character reasons do they have to place themselves in such danager?

Is there something I'm missing here?

[Zhorn]

Every player needs to learn that dragons are a serious threat.
If they won't take the hint to turn tail and run, then play the dragon as if it were facing a correctly leveled party. Pull no punches, and play the dragon as it should behave.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons... for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

If they are lucky, they'll roleplay a good worship or grovel. Green dragon like living treasure after all.

[CTurbo]

Let the dragon slaughter and eat them and maybe they'll learn a lesson about not being stupid in the future.


Maybe if you're feeling nice, let one party member escape to carry on whatever story you're trying to tell.


Players have to learn that they are not going to be able to take on everything they come across.

[Malifice]

My main question is 'why'?

What in character reasons do they have to put themselves in such extreme peril?

Is there some reason I'm missing?

[BreaktheStatue]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

I don't really think it's the DM's job to prevent a TPK, especially for non-rookie players.

There's a nice, big middle ground between actively trying to kill your PCs and holding their hands.

[Malifice]

I don't really think it's the DM's job to prevent a TPK, especially for non-rookie players.

I wholly disagree. It's a communal game, and the point of it is to have fun. TPKs arent fun for anyone, including the DM.

I'd point out to the players that going after the dragon is suicide. Out of game. Id make it as clear as I could.

I'd also consider turning the 'Dragon' into something else. A Wyvern or even an Illusion by the actual protagonists of the adventure, designed to distract the PCs (and thus getting the adventure back on track).

[ad_hoc]

TPKs arent fun for anyone, including the DM.

Just not true.

TPKs are often quite memorable and exciting.

I also don't want to play in a game where they aren't possible.

The greater the danger the greater the success.

[BreaktheStatue]

I wholly disagree. It's a communal game, and the point of it is to have fun. TPKs arent fun for anyone, including the DM.

I'd point out to the players that going after the dragon is suicide. Out of game. Id make it as clear as I could.

I'd also consider turning the 'Dragon' into something else. A Wyvern or even an Illusion by the actual protagonists of the adventure, designed to distract the PCs (and thus getting the adventure back on track).

I guess groups are different, but I would get very bored, very fast, once I discovered that the DM was intervening in the way you describe. To me, it's just a (well-intentioned?) form of railroading.

[CTurbo]

Yes tpk HAS to be possible or it just doesn't "work"


I always make it VERY clear that character deaths are and will be a thing if they're not careful and same is true for tpk. They will NOT be able to fight their way out of every situation.


I feel like I am a pretty forgiving DM. As long as the players aren't being stupid, I am willing to "help" them not tpk to an extent, but if they're being stupid or trying to murder hobo, I will take no pity on them. Oh that homeless guy you're attacking? Yeah you hit him for 27 damage, but too bad for you he was an ancient silver dragon in disguise. Roll Initiative! lol That green dragon they're after.... yeah upon closer inspection it was an ancient green, or maybe it was a wyrmling leading the party back to it's ancient mother. Roll up new characters.

[Malifice]

Yes tpk HAS to be possible or it just doesn't "work"

The illusion of a TPK has to be possible. You dont actually want to do one.

Unless having your campaign come to a grinding halt is something you value of course.

[Zhorn]

The illusion of a TPK has to be possible. You dont actually want to do one.

It's not about wanting to cause a TPK. There's often this large disconnect in understanding the different between giving the players a dangerous scenarios vs actively trying to kill them. A good DM doesn't have a goal of killing off their players, but also is not there to ensure player immortality.
I loath DM's that take the "It's me vs the players" mindset, but the helicopter DMs that abort threats to prevent player death make the victories hollow and meaningless.

[CTurbo]

Sure you don't WANT tpk, but the players can't assume that their actions won't have consequences. If the party is dumb enough to chase down and take on a green dragon that they shouldn't be trying to fight then they deserve a tpk. Hell yeah it's frustrating for a DM. That's when a serious talk has to take place with the players. The DM can always just capture the party instead of killing them, but they can only do that so many times. DM can also allow one PC to escape/live in order to keep the story going.

[Tanarii]

Are they new D&D players, or experienced players?

If they're experienced, are they experienced in games where everything they could fight, they had a fighting chance against? I.e. tailored combats? Or have they experienced games where they can be outclassed, especially if they're not following an adventure hook?

Did you make clear to them before the campaign began that there are things out there that outclass them, and they shouldn't assume they can win every fight?

If they're experienced players, who have encountered things that outclass them before, and you made that clear before the campaign began ... it's their funeral.

If you didn't make that clear, you should make that clear now. If they're new players and you did make that clear, remind them.

Not everyone is mentally prepared for the concept they can "lose" a game, especially a roleplaying game. (Turns out losing characters is often considered losing by folks, even those that like to say you can't win a roleplaying game.)

[Malifice]

It's not about wanting to cause a TPK..

I was talking about having a TPK; not wanting one.

TPKs are horrible. They make everyone feel crap, and they're campaign crushers. They serve no purpose.

However you want the risk of one, to add to the tension. If the players feel like one will never happen (or its not a possibility) they'll get bored of the game.

You want your players to feel the threat of a TPK, without one ever actually happening.

It's an illusion of risk. But not something you should ever have happen.

[Malifice]

Sure you don't WANT tpk, but the players can't assume that their actions won't have consequences. If the party is dumb enough to chase down and take on a green dragon that they shouldn't be trying to fight then they deserve a tpk.

No, they dont.

They deserve some consequences for that action, but the days of wiping the party out and ending the campaign as a consequence of poor decisions is something we can leave to the 80's.

I wouldnt wipe them out. Id tone the encounter down (making it an Illusion sent by the campaigns BBEG's to throw the PCs of the scent, or making it a Wyvern or similar, or leaving it as a potent Adult Green Dragon and have it talk to the PCs and toy with them (without killing them).

Id stage the encounter so the dragon becomes a recurring protagonist, and informs the story going forwards, and not just ends the story with the grim deaths of the PCs and a campaign reboot.

[Lombra]

It can be a nice sidequest, set the path to the young dragon with encounters and a long journey, so that they'll level up (to level 5 or so) before they reach it.

[Dungeon-noob]

I was talking about having a TPK; not wanting one.

TPKs are horrible. They make everyone feel crap, and they're campaign crushers. They serve no purpose.

However you want the risk of one, to add to the tension. If the players feel like one will never happen (or its not a possibility) they'll get bored of the game.

You want your players to feel the threat of a TPK, without one ever actually happening.

It's an illusion of risk. But not something you should ever have happen.
That is very much an opinion you're allowed to have. Just don't act like it's a fact that applies to everyone. Some people prefer having the risk be there and real.

As for the scenario at hand, i can't shake the image of the dragon reading a good book when the adventurers come in, and him telling them they best leave, they're bothering him when it's just getting good. If they don't, well, he can use a snack. Melee only, limiting his actions per turn, and generally not taking them seriously and trying to eat them rather then actually fighting.

[Zhorn]

They deserve some consequences for that action, but the days of wiping the party out and ending the campaign as a consequence of poor decisions is something we can leave to the 80's.
Not really though. Yes, we've softened from the Tomb of Horrors style of "You failed this skill check, so your dead" and "You opened the door. You're dead", but death from poor decision making IS still highly relevant to the game. If the danger is telegraphed, options to escape are presented, alternate objective are know, BUT the party still wants to barrel down towards a challenge they are not ready for, then you should be prepared to kill them off. I don't mean actively choosing that each character is dead, just letting the dice fall as they may.
As for the 'illusion' of risk rather than a reality... this is the first reaction that comes to mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QrntLgqsIw

[ad_hoc]

The people I play with are both my friends and people I respect.

I'm not going to lie to them and I expect them not to lie to me. If risks are part of the game we are playing then they are there.

These are risks inside of a game too, so not real ones. The game doesn't stop with a TPK, it keeps going. The story of those characters may be over but it was a glorious one.

I'd much rather have risk in the game so our successes are real rather than have a DM who lies and changes things around to create their story. What a hollow experience.

[jaappleton]

They can face a dragon as early as level 1.

However, just like skydiving without a parachute, it can only be done once.

[Shuruke]

I would say on their way to dragon have it be few 100 miles away and as they go through the adventuring days to get their have them have to traverse through dangerous areas.

As they head toward dragon they gain xp
Maybe help a out of way town that's being hassled by cultists that worship dragon and come by demanding cattle to take to their god etc
By time they actually gey to dragon at 6 players of level 5 or 6 make it a hard fought battle with the dragon talking down to them before finally fleeing at 35% or so hp stating that they win for now and it'll b back

Later have it show up in story as a rune scribed adult green dragon with a nasty set of scars that's been terrorizing the x area with its cultists and Slaad worshippers.

When they get to it they realize this peaceful wanting to be left alone dragon that had a cult of followers it didn't ask for now wants its presence known and is taking over x area as its own taking prisoners to make more Slaad etc


If they want to hunt a dragon make a story out of it even if it means putting your current plot on hold or connecting them by having bbeg find the wounded dragon and pull a Dai qunari on it binding it to service and weapon ising it.


Use the players wants to further story your the DM your the master of time in this world u get to say how long it takes to get their and the troubles to come they might b level 3 now but that doesn't mean they need to b when they get their.

But then again I am the type of players that doesn't kill players cuz if u kill a player it isn't as impactful as a character indebted to a fiend that one day will ask for payment or an adventurer left a spell scar across part of their body from fighting a dragon and barely living to tell and that being their favorite tavern story.

If only ever killed 3 players

One in Chult because they nominated themselves to do the run punishment instead of part of a sailor crew they liked

One at the very end of a campaign who asked to expend action surge and reaction to jump in front of a crit for an ally during the bbeg fight

One where to buy their friends more time to escape they shut a door and jammed it fending off the hallway so friends could escape the creatures chasing them when they were low on health and out of slots and even then this character was captured tortured and eventually became a recent after the party (player had to leave campaign but wanted to give others reason to hate the bbeg even more and since everyone loved the grumpy grandpa warrior it was great)

**Ask your players what they want story wise going after this dragon, dragons are one of the most loved end games enemy in this RPG and just like a player should ask DM about things in most scenarios. You should ask your players**

[Unoriginal]

IMO, that " illusion of risk" mindset is one of the worst ways a DM can run with good intentions.

The risk has to be real within the fiction. I'd be beyond pissed if a DM made the BBEG miss to save my character or whoops, the evil Sorcerer suddenly didn't use Finger of Death when a PC fails their save, it was actually Firebolt, ahahah.

If there's no risk, there is no point in being adventurers. If the DM tries to fool you into thinking there's risk where's there's none, then there is no point being their players.

[Shuruke]

If there's no risk, there is no point in being adventurers. If the DM tries to fool you into thinking there's risk where's there's none, then there is no point being their players.


I both agree and disagree with this

Some players like having risk and don't mind rolling new characters, but then theirs players like ones I DM for and I myself don't like the idea of a character u created, have spent 100 hours doing drawings of and small 2 page comics of awesome moments taken away for realism or for sake of their being sense of danger.

We go by rule of "we won't kill your character unless u do something really dumb or if its agreed upon beforehand as part of their or the story."

That's why I say talk to players if they are ok with character death than by all means , but if they want to work toward the goal of adding dragon slaying to their story have the journey to dragon get them strong enough to get through it. This might mean u counting hp and fudging to drop someone to 0 instead of instakill.

In the end its based on how the group plays and on opinion of players. That's what makes dnd great theirs a group or play style for everyone.

Any dm that says "well really it was fire bolt " is taking from the story but a dm that has finger of death kill the character and when they rise its as a revenant that every turn can make a wisdom save to be an ally or for than after the combat get to RP goodbyes or etc brings some fun to table and conflict during combat of do we put him out of misery or kill bbeg. Maybe bbeg flees and leaves them to deal with their ally now being undead and needing to do a small quest to fix it all the while when combat starts the character has to make saves not just frenzy and hit closest thing.

Their is better outcomes then u die or it didn't happen.

In the end just play in a way everyone will have fun cuz that's the point. Getting together making memories and calorie intake through snacks and misc alcoholic beverages or soft drinks

[Theodoric]

I'm having six lvl 4 players fight a young black dragon this saturday, so I'll have to wait and see. With six against one Cr7 monsters they're probably going to win, but I can probably reduce one or two to 0 HP. Actually killing a PC seems unlikely, but we'll see. Especially at higher levels 5e PCs are more resilient than they look, in my experience as a DM you really need to focus on killing to actually kill a PC.

[Amdy_vill]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

I herd of level 5 parties wiping young dragons but also some time being wipes by them. so i think level 5-7 is good.

[DevilMcam]

As part of different 4 member groups I faced 4 dragons in total.

First one was a silver, probably an adult one, definitely not a young one (friendly to the party) at level 4 or 5 but it was a social encounter, no fight happened

Second one was a young black dragon that we tracked a bit before fighting him in his lair at level 7, his lair was custom made by the DM and had him be affected by several buff (bless, divine shield, etc) that we could remove by breaking things.

3rd one was a big Blue dragon that we did not fight at level 8 (and we would have tottally TPKed if we did). The bard messed with it and got breathed at, killing a NPC in the process, but no Proper fight ensued.

4th was a neutral Brass dragon that happened to be going that way and stopped to talk nonsense for a while before sleepbreathing the party for the lols and flying away, and that was at level 12 I think

[Tanarii]

These are risks inside of a game too, so not real ones. The game doesn't stop with a TPK, it keeps going. The story of those characters may be over but it was a glorious one.

I'd much rather have risk in the game so our successes are real rather than have a DM who lies and changes things around to create their story. What a hollow experience.
Right. TPKs just potentially end one set of player characters. And even thats not a guarantee, if the campaign allows other players/PCs to recover the bodies and Raise them.

Illlusionism are a cancer that destroys trust in the DM. Like fudging, it ends gaming groups entirely when (not if) it comes to light.

[denthor]

A published 1st to 3rd adventure had a red dragon as the final cave. The party finds it asleep and has the option of defeating the dragon with non-lethal means.

That same adventure give them access to a pair of Evil NPC'S that offer help for "free" they ask for first choice of magic items. The module then says the beaten into submission by non lethal means dragon is considered a magic item.

It also says the dragon is smart enough to know that (s)he is beaten and surrenders for her life.

You can make it a safe encounter if it is young.

Just give warnings that non lethal is always better.

[braveheart]

How did I forget about wyrmlings,
I can just use a red wyrmling's stat block and say it is still too young to be at the full stats of a young dragon.

[Tawmis]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.
I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

Warn them as a DM, that even young dragons are a very, very serious threat. If the party persists, then there's one way to let them know you're serious.

Let the cards - or characters - fall where they may. When they roll up new characters, they will know to take dragons more seriously.

I think a lot of players feel invulnerable (especially if you're friends with the players, rather than DMing for strangers), because they think, "You won't kill my character I spent hours creating!"

And while most normal monsters, I will go easy on the party - but there's certain monsters that should always be taken seriously.

Dragons rank right at the top.

Even young ones.

[Man_Over_Game]

I have made it explicitly clear that they cannot take it yet ooc, though in character they have not encountered a dragon before, and because of the setting the only one they've ever heard of is a gold dragon that is friendly to society.

These are not rookie players, they know that the breath weapon does more damage than any of their max HP's but they seem hell bent in dieing

If the players know the threat, they've given their consent to your punishment. They've made their bed, now it's time to make them sleep in it.

I'd recommend even ignoring the idea of using a Wyrmling. Just take away the Young Dragon's breath weapon (maybe it's injured somewhere on the throat) so that the players have more than one turn. That way, only 1-2 characters will die as a lesson in humility.

They need to learn that you aren't there to narrate a fairy tale where everything is going to be ok. THEY are the ones who make the world better and THEY are the reason they survived the night. If you let them dive into this fight and make it easy on them (and by "easy", I mean not wiping the entire team in two rounds), you're just going to reinforce their bad behaviors. They're going to expect you to hold their hands when they make a mistake, when really the DM should make sure the players know what a mistake is, not fix it for them.

[tchntm43]

Seems like it's pretty common to get into arguments about TPK. I think people often forget that there are different approaches to playing this game. To use a video game comparison, it's like the difference between a rogue-like such as Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, where characters have no personalities or backgrounds and the world exists independently of that, vs. Final Fantasy 7 where the characters have complex personalities and backgrounds and the story and the world they exist in is intricately interwoven with those personalities and backgrounds.

In either case, the commitment made by the players in playing has to produce some level of reward relative to that commitment. If you require your players to do an amount of character creation equal to an entire play session or two, they are going to be pretty unhappy if they are killed off in the early levels, and odds are pretty good that, if they are new players, they will simply not want to play the game at all anymore. And that sucks for everyone, including the DM. If, instead, they create just the numbers for the character stats and a very basic history, then they aren't likely to care as much when they die.

I would presume there's a pretty strong correlation between those who say TPK is fine and normal and preference for more simplistic character creation that takes less time to complete. And that the same would be true for those who abhor TPK and preference for spending a lot of time before playing in character creation.

[Man_Over_Game]

Seems like it's pretty common to get into arguments about TPK. I think people often forget that there are different approaches to playing this game. To use a video game comparison, it's like the difference between a rogue-like such as Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, where characters have no personalities or backgrounds and the world exists independently of that, vs. Final Fantasy 7 where the characters have complex personalities and backgrounds and the story and the world they exist in is intricately interwoven with those personalities and backgrounds.

In either case, the commitment made by the players in playing has to produce some level of reward relative to that commitment. If you require your players to do an amount of character creation equal to an entire play session or two, they are going to be pretty unhappy if they are killed off in the early levels, and odds are pretty good that, if they are new players, they will simply not want to play the game at all anymore. And that sucks for everyone, including the DM. If, instead, they create just the numbers for the character stats and a very basic history, then they aren't likely to care as much when they die.

I would presume there's a pretty strong correlation between those who say TPK is fine and normal and preference for more simplistic character creation that takes less time to complete. And that the same would be true for those who abhor TPK and preference for spending a lot of time before playing in character creation.

The players and characters have been educated though. They know of the danger of the scenario, and it's not even relevant to their cause. They are choosing after being presented all of the information.

I'm a big advocate for players getting too many clues and too much knowledge. But if a parent can't convince a child that fire burns, then it's something they have to learn for themselves.

---------------------------

If the DM is hardset on keeping the players alive, have them help a Diviner along the way, who stays with them for a short while. After they depart, have the players go through the real fight and get their butts whooped. Kill all of them, if you can. Then reveal that the Diviner simply gave them a vision she saw and wanted to pass it along as a gift. Have her say that she wished better for them, and hope they take this gift in grace.

In other words, you give them one chance to see just how stupid and outmatched they are without repercussions.

[Glorthindel]

To use a video game comparison, it's like the difference between a rogue-like such as Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, where characters have no personalities or backgrounds and the world exists independently of that, vs. Final Fantasy 7 where the characters have complex personalities and backgrounds and the story and the world they exist in is intricately interwoven with those personalities and backgrounds.

In either case, the commitment made by the players in playing has to produce some level of reward relative to that commitment. If you require your players to do an amount of character creation equal to an entire play session or two, they are going to be pretty unhappy if they are killed off in the early levels, and odds are pretty good that, if they are new players, they will simply not want to play the game at all anymore. And that sucks for everyone, including the DM. If, instead, they create just the numbers for the character stats and a very basic history, then they aren't likely to care as much when they die.

I would presume there's a pretty strong correlation between those who say TPK is fine and normal and preference for more simplistic character creation that takes less time to complete. And that the same would be true for those who abhor TPK and preference for spending a lot of time before playing in character creation.

Just want to point out that Final Fantasy 7 is a pretty bad example to use for a party that shouldn't suffer character deaths :smallwink:

[Man_Over_Game]

Just want to point out that Final Fantasy 7 is a pretty bad example to use for a party that shouldn't suffer character deaths :smallwink:

Valid point. If you see a giant whale-sized demon robot swimming around in the ocean that's 200x the size of your sub and gives you the heeby jeebies, you don't friggin' touch the damn thing.

[tieren]

The part is 6 players, a wizard, a rogue, a paladin, a bard, cleric, and fighter.

This is totally doable.

They need to be tactical, spread out so they don't all get hit, if you've got a tank thats also a dwarf with poison resistance all the better. Put have the cleric and paladin cover the fighter with Bless and warding bond, get the fighter to taunt out the breath attack when he is the only one to get hit, mad rush and nova with everyone else while it is on recharge.

If they don't kill it they may at least drive it off. (which is the goal of the similar encounter in LMoP)

[Lyracian]

The Dragon could always try and hire the party as there is something it wants doing; maybe in a cave it can not enter as it is too big. Otherwise it might grab the first dead player and fly off to eat its lunch. That way only one dead and rest of party gets to live

[Aeson]

My feeling is that if you've warned your players that the dragon will be a dangerous opponent and they still want to go after it, then let them do so. I would nevertheless at least consider allowing them the chance to essentially back out of the encounter as late as possible - perhaps consider having the dragon open the fight with an offer to let them live in exchange for a service and repeat the offer once the encounter reaches a point where it should be clear that the party will lose if they continue to fight the dragon, or perhaps be of the type sufficiently amused by watching things flee in terror as to make only a desultory pursuit before letting them go if they decide to run away (or maybe the dragon has something it'd rather do than wipe out this petty band of adventurers and so can't be bothered to go after them).

If you want, you can also give them a chance to get some kind of insurance against a TPK. Maybe they meet a local priest while on the road who, in exchange for a "small" donation to his temple, will keep an eye out for their corpses and raise them if they should fall to the dragon or something like that.

Failing that, if you get a TPK and your players are very upset about losing their characters, remember that you're playing in a fantasy world where resurrection is at least possible. If they're that upset about losing their characters to an encounter that they really shouldn't have taken and that you repeatedly warned them would be very dangerous, maybe consider coming up with some vaguely-plausible pretext to have something bring their characters back. The dragon needs minions for something and these fools kindly delivered themselves into its power, so it decides to give them a last chance at life and kidnaps a local priest to bring them back with some of these worthless Raise Dead scrolls it just happens to have in its hoard (which, incidentally, could play out at least three ways - they can take the dragon's offer and abide by the terms of the deal, they can take the dragon's offer and break the deal, or they can say "stuff you" to the dragon and the priest can raise them later while the dragon is off doing something else on the condition that they'll help him escape the dragon's lair). A witch needs something done and saw the party getting killed by the dragon, so the witch went over and Spoke with Dead to offer them a raise in exchange for a service. A god took an interest in the party, or at least in one of its members, and offers to send them back if they'll undertake a mission. A spirit can save their lives if they'll help find it a suitable body. Whatever. It's a game; you're all there to have fun.

[MinimanMidget]

How many of the PCs are dwarves/yuan-ti/strongheart halflings/green dragonborn/etc? Poison resistance is actually pretty common, and it potentially could make a big difference.

[Malifice]

That is very much an opinion you're allowed to have. Just don't act like it's a fact that applies to everyone. Some people prefer having the risk be there and real.

How would they know if the risk is real?

[ad_hoc]

Seems like it's pretty common to get into arguments about TPK. I think people often forget that there are different approaches to playing this game. To use a video game comparison, it's like the difference between a rogue-like such as Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, where characters have no personalities or backgrounds and the world exists independently of that, vs. Final Fantasy 7 where the characters have complex personalities and backgrounds and the story and the world they exist in is intricately interwoven with those personalities and backgrounds.

In either case, the commitment made by the players in playing has to produce some level of reward relative to that commitment. If you require your players to do an amount of character creation equal to an entire play session or two, they are going to be pretty unhappy if they are killed off in the early levels, and odds are pretty good that, if they are new players, they will simply not want to play the game at all anymore. And that sucks for everyone, including the DM. If, instead, they create just the numbers for the character stats and a very basic history, then they aren't likely to care as much when they die.

I would presume there's a pretty strong correlation between those who say TPK is fine and normal and preference for more simplistic character creation that takes less time to complete. And that the same would be true for those who abhor TPK and preference for spending a lot of time before playing in character creation.

I disagree with that.

I come to D&D to make characters, not faceless stat blocks.

I want TPKs to be possible in games and I don't think it is a bad game if they happen. I also don't go seeking them out when I play.

The possibility of a TPK is a big motivator in play. Characters at our table care about their lives and safety because they might (really) die. There is no party infighting because that would lead to us all dying. Everyone helps each other out as much as possible because we want to live. It also allows characters to actually be courageous because death is possible.

There can be no success without the possibility of defeat. There can be no bravery without consequences.

[ad_hoc]

get the fighter to taunt out the breath attack when he is the only one to get hit, mad rush and nova with everyone else while it is on recharge.


How, exactly, is that accomplished?

It is true that just about everything in the book can be defeated if the DM makes the monsters act in ways in which they aren't dangerous. If the DM wanted to they could let the characters kill an adult dragon.

What is true is that a 6 PC party is a lot stronger than people think. They are at least twice as strong as a 4 PC party. Still, hard to do something about flight at such a low level.

[Dungeon-noob]

How would they know if the risk is real?
Hard to say, but you can very much know it isn't when the DM straight up never lets players die, regardless of die rolls or circumstances.

[tieren]

How, exactly, is that accomplished?


Getting the fighter to taunt out the breath weapon?, maybe have everyone else hide while he appears alone and literally yells taunts at the dragon while trying to stay just out of melee range. Call the thing a blow hard a couple of times and see if it doesn't actually try to blow hard.

Its not a video game where the enemies line up on one side and the allies on the other and take turns attacking one another. Be creative.

[Tanarii]

Hard to say, but you can very much know it isn't when the DM straight up never lets players die, regardless of die rolls or circumstances.
And such DMs, like DMs that fudge die rolls, quickly become apparent. Despite often believing that the players won't notice it because of how smart and clever they are. 🙄

On the other hand, you can make it work if you're above board about it. I've been in two single-party campaigns that were "save the world" type campaigns, where continuity mattered, that resulted in TPKs. And the DMs straight up asked us if we wanted to be saved from the TPK somehow. In one case we accepted (and the game died an out of game death before completion), in the other we rolled new characters and started up a campaign dealing with the consequences of failing to save the world. Both were okay, because it wasn't sneakily robbing us of agency.

[tchntm43]

I disagree with that.

I come to D&D to make characters, not faceless stat blocks.

Well, let's be more specific. How long do you expect to take creating a character?

[ChildofLuthic]

So my party of 4 level 4 PCs can handle a CR 7 encounter after like 4 CR3-4 encounters (so a boss fight at the end of an adventuring day.) I'd say that, once your 6 PC party hits level 4, they should be good to fight it as long as they don't have much else attacking them that day. Of course, I'm totally cool with killing a player, and I usually have one character make a death saving throw per adventuring day, so maybe wait til level 5, when your party reaches Tier 2.

[Asmotherion]

There are Dragons in their approximate CR. Namely Wyrmlings. if your intention is a battle that could go both ways use that (with a bit of permisive refluffing if you're worried about details). if your Dragon is already scripted as a young you're bound to it though.

Otherwise wile DMing "be the dragon". Do what the dragon would do. Don't try to "justyfy a way to save the players" unless the Dragon has a good reason to do so.

What you can do is "delay the inevitable". Derail their quest to meet the Dragon in a way that when they ultimatelly meet it they will be strong enough to face him. Perhaps the Dragon's supposed lair was a false rumor. Perhaps the Dragon ends up being the BBEG (or one of the BBEG) of the Campain. And what they ultimatelly meet at it's lair is some Half-Dragon General that reveals some relevant plot.

Storybuilding and stuff.

[Tanarii]

Well, let's be more specific. How long do you expect to take creating a character?
IMX creating a fully fleshed 5e character takes about 15 minutes for an experienced player, and about an hour for a new player. That includes choosing personality traits, and noting equipment.

That doesn't include getting used to exactly how class features and especially spells really work, which can easily take until level 5. If I included time for a new player to read each spell in depth and discuss all the implications, it's probably be an additional 2 hours. But new players are rarely interested in that level of dedication.

Nor does it include planning a 'Build'. Players that want to be all extra can do that on their own time. ;)

My experience includes helping easily a hundred players make level 1 characters in the last few years.

[tchntm43]

IMX creating a fully fleshed 5e character takes about 15 minutes for an experienced player, and about an hour for a new player. That includes choosing personality traits, and noting equipment.

That doesn't include getting used to exactly how class features and especially spells really work, which can easily take until level 5. If I included time for a new player to read each spell in depth and discuss all the implications, it's probably be an additional 2 hours. But new players are rarely interested in that level of dedication.

Nor does it include planning a 'Build'. Players that want to be all extra can do that on their own time. ;)

My experience includes helping easily a hundred players make level 1 characters in the last few years.

My question was meant specifically for the person I quoted, but that's okay. The point I was trying to make is that if you build characters the way you mention, I think you're more likely to accept TPK at any time, because the time commitment in the character creation process is minimal. If instead your campaign is one long epic quest where the players have detailed histories that they have to make, and those histories shape the DM's decisions about building the world (and vice versa, a bit of back and forth in that regard) and their histories are woven into the backgrounds of each adventure, and the whole process of creating these characters takes a couple entire play sessions, then the prospect of losing those characters in the first adventure would probably have the players scratching their heads asking why they did all that work. If the characters are "the next round of mercenaries" then it doesn't destroy the ability to play in the game world the DM has created if they die. But if they are "the heroes of legend" or whatever, well... the heroes of legend can't also be someone else. Or if they are, you can only run that trick once. If they die early, you lose the whole campaign and game world, not just the characters.

My point is that there are different ways that people approach playing this game. And the TPK question (more specifically, early TPK) that I've seen crop up several times on this forum now is a case of people arguing about something different than what they think they're arguing about. The issue isn't that people disagree about early TPK. It's that people are literally playing very different games using the same rulebooks and they haven't realized that fact, and that this difference means that the TPK question can be correct either way depending on what game they're playing. FWIW, I fully support both ways of playing. People should play the game the way that they find enjoyable.

[Tvtyrant]

In my campaign the party saw a green dragon in the distance and rather than reacting as I expected and staying clear of it until they reach a higher level, the level 3 adventurers are dead set on going after the dragon.

I don't know how to keep the party from getting TPK'd on the first breath attack, and I'd appreciate some advice in that regard.

In an old E6 Campaign of mine I made a Mary Sue DMPC who ran around fixing problems for the party, talking up their abilities and showing off their cool powers. The party, buoyed by the DMPC went to go kill the campaigns' big bad.

The DMPC recklessly charged him, an Orc Deathknight with an iron golem arm, and died instantly. The boss blew up their airship (letting them escape with just fall damage) and the party never assumed fights were safe again. By the end of the campaign they had moved into crazy-paranoid black ops, avoiding any fights that looked uncertain and using murder and stealth to get their way.

Properly prepared I think a dragon can be used any time, if the party is capable of learning not to assume their safety.

[Tanarii]

Sure if you write a book it's going to take awhile. But that's not a required part of a 5e character.

[druid91]

Eh. Going to go against the grain here. They can take it.

If the Wizard readies an action to gust of wind the poison breath away, that threat is negated entirely for a few rounds. Follow up with Ray of Enfeeblement to reduce it to half-damage, then go to town.

[Zhorn]

Eh. Going to go against the grain here. They can take it.

If the Wizard readies an action to gust of wind the poison breath away, that threat is negated entirely for a few rounds. Follow up with Ray of Enfeeblement to reduce it to half-damage, then go to town.

When you're playing fairly (letting the dice decide, and not pulling strings), then yes; even the slim chances of success are still chances of success.
As for the strategy the players should use, that's best left to the players. If the DM tells them how to do the fight, then it defeats the purpose of the players being there. Even worse if the DM tells them what plays to make, and then the players roll low, dragon rolls high, party dies, and some players might feel that the DM directed them to their deaths "We did what you said, why'd you TPK us!?!"

Again, I agree that it is 'possible' for the party to win, but it is unlikely that they will unless they've prepped their builds for this.

[Spiritchaser]

The players should be given the chance to eventually fight the dragon, even if that means they die, but give them loads of warning, especially if they are new.

It can be pretty easy to showcase the power of a dragon from a distance.

Let the party see the dragon effortlessly murder a few of something else that they’ve had trouble with, like a couple of ogres or whatnot.

They don’t know how much damage a breath weapon does? Fine, but they know how many arrows they left in the owlbear back there, and it’s just fine to narratively have the dragon “roll well” against them down by the river a mile away where they’re squabbling over something that one of them has killed (maybe a dead goblin with a useful clue or map on it’s corpse?)

You don’t have to make it easy to find the dragon either. It might take the party a level or two of churning through some other challenges to locate or entice the dragon out, and by level 5... we’ll if they’re smart enough then this is not an unreasonable fight.

[Unoriginal]

It's true a dragon can be too hard to find for low-level characters. Without the wingspan and the tail, a Young Dragon is the size of a big horse but with way more options for where to move, all the grace of a prey animal and all the know-how of a sapent being.

Once in their favored environment (forest, for OP's green dragon), it'd take a great hunter to find a dragon who doesn't want to be found.

[Lunali]

To make it less likely to TPK but still something that will teach them a lesson, change the breath weapon to a 60 ft line instead of a 30ft cone. This will allow you to control who and how many get hit, likely resulting in a fight the survivors will remember.