Warlock with a bow?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Does anyone here in the playground know if it's at all possible to use eldritch blast with a bow?

Eldritch Claws is a feat, and it allows you to make 2 attacks with eldritch blast damage, eldritch glove allows you to attack as many times as you have interatives, with essences. So is there anything that allows more than one blast attack per round, but at a range? Yenno like instead of Eldritch Glaive, Eldritch Bow or something?

[skunk3]

There is a homebrew invocation called "Hideous Shot." The bummer is that it's a lesser invocation instead of least. (Hideous Blow and Eldritch Glaive are both least.)

[Elricaltovilla]

No, there is no 1st party way to get iterative ranged attacks with Eldritch Blast. This is probably the single most common complaint people have about the warlock.

[Particle_Man]

Not with a bow but eldritch chain does multiple attacks in its own right.

[Fizban]

If you want to use EB with a bow, I suggest removing the line "melee" from Hideous Blow.

If you want iterative ranged blasts, you should ask your DM. As mentioned there's nothing in 1st party, and the question of how much damage output the Warlock (or any character) should have at what range is best directed to the DM. You can already get a significant boost in damage by taking Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA as well as certain items, and the order of operations could boost that further. The DM should consider the combined effects of all those with a potential iterative blast ability before allowing it (even Eldritch Glaive).

Odds are if you're asking the question then some amount of DPR increase is probably in order, but if your group hasn't actually played with Warlock yet the DM might come to regret a hasty ruling.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

If you want to use EB with a bow, I suggest removing the line "melee" from Hideous Blow.

If you want iterative ranged blasts, you should ask your DM. As mentioned there's nothing in 1st party, and the question of how much damage output the Warlock (or any character) should have at what range is best directed to the DM. You can already get a significant boost in damage by taking Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA as well as certain items, and the order of operations could boost that further. The DM should consider the combined effects of all those with a potential iterative blast ability before allowing it (even Eldritch Glaive).

Odds are if you're asking the question then some amount of DPR increase is probably in order, but if your group hasn't actually played with Warlock yet the DM might come to regret a hasty ruling.

I'm the DM, but I've only ever played Clawlocks, and Glaivelocks -- for the sole purpose that I haven't found a way to get multiple attacks as a blaster.

Eldritch chain is always an option, but the 1/2 damage, and 30 foot limitation from eachother kinda threw me off. I know alot of tables that simply change Eldritch Glaive out for a range attack that provokes attack of opportunities (stats for a Longbow in place of a glaive), which isn't horrible, and i don't think that gamebreaking.

I'm not too sure I would allow the essence to effect all of the "arrows" though. 3+ enemies across the battlefield all being blinded from Beshadowed Blast is a bit too OP for me.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

The warlock is very set on playing a ranged blaster, mostly for the fluff, as he is our newest edition to the party. The rest of my players are T2/T3 builds, so they definitely are capable of outshadowing the warlock damage AND utility.

Overall I don't think allowing Eldrotch Glaive to be a Eldritch "Longbow" would be broken, as long as the essence doesn't apply to every hit.

[RaiKirah]

I was hoping that you could use Hideous Blow with an Elvencraft bow for manyshot and/or Splitting, but it specifically says to make a melee attack, not attack with a melee weapon, so that's right out. The only way I can think of is if you put 4 levels into Bloodstorm Blade to be able to make ranged attacks as melee. Kinda hits your invocations, though you can recoup Eldritch Blast with Practiced Spellcaster.

[Fizban]

Tying things into "iterative" attacks is mostly just a feel-good sense of parity. What really matters is the number of attacks, and what level you get them at. And invocation grades are already the Warlocks' big power level defining metric.

So the number of attacks should be based on the grade of the shape you've taken to get more, not whatever you can manipulate your "iterative attacks" into. Maybe the glaive or claws get a free pass for scaling because they're close range, but you don't have to do that for ranged range. Just make Lesser, Greater, and Dark shape invocations that give however many attacks (with or without penalties) you find appropriate. That's essentially my fix, a number of high level shapes with more damage (via extra attacks or doubling).

Check out Vael's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13321110&postcount=166) homebrew index- you'll probably be just fine with all of those (I only have a few nerfed).

[ByOdin'sBeard]

The ones I skimmed over actually look quite well balanced, that's awesome, thank you. I'm new to the playground so I've missed alot of these threads and optimization forums.

I think a greater invocation duplicating Claws would be fine. Up to 2 attacks, and you have range, seems more than enough really.

Thanks for the links/insight!

[Hackulator]

Honestly, if you have legit T2s/T3s with some level of optimization in the party, I think you would be fine to just say "Eldritch Blast gets iterative attacks" and leave it at that.

[Troacctid]

Eldritch chain allows multiple attacks with eldritch blast at range.

[Red Fel]

Does anyone here in the playground know if it's at all possible to use eldritch blast with a bow?

Eldritch Claws is a feat, and it allows you to make 2 attacks with eldritch blast damage, eldritch glove allows you to attack as many times as you have interatives, with essences. So is there anything that allows more than one blast attack per round, but at a range? Yenno like instead of Eldritch Glaive, Eldritch Bow or something?

How comfortable are you with some pretty major cheese? Because here's something discussed in this very forum a long while back - Aptitude Weapon + Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike + Bow. Blame Snowbluff.


Well, here's how an Aptitude weapon works. Aptitude is an enhancement that can be added to a weapon, that basically allows that weapon to qualify as another weapon for the purposes of a weapon-specific feat. For example, say you have Weapon Focus (Greatsword), and an Aptitude Longsword. You can apply Weapon Focus to your Longsword, treating it as a Greatsword for the purpose of your Weapon Focus feat. This was likely designed to apply only to feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the like, but by its wording it applies to any feat specific to a single weapon.

Let's look at Eldritch Claws. Basically, you would take the weapon in question and replace each instance of "unarmed strike" with the name of the weapon. Let's use the example of a Longbow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#longbow). Now, a Longbow, on its own, deals 1d8 piercing. Eldritch Claws says that our Eldritch Claws, on hit, deal damage equal to [Unarmed Strike] + Eldritch Blast. We replace [Unarmed Strike] with [Longbow], and now they deal 1d8 + EB. But they're still claws, we can't use them at range.

Well, now we look at Beast Strike, again performing the "unarmed strike" substitution. Beast Strike says that when you make an [Unarmed Strike], you can add your claw damage. Once again, we replace [Unarmed Strike] with [Longbow] (grammatically, it gets a bit funky). Now, when we make an attack with the Longbow, we add our claw damage - which, as we discussed, is 1d8 + EB - to our existing Longbow damage, 1d8. Thus, our iterative attacks with a Longbow deal 2d8 + EB. Note, however, that you don't get to add Str bonus to a bow unless it's composite.

In other words, your Eldritch Blast is ordinarily a ranged touch attack that you can perform once per round. This trick turns it into a ranged attack (not touch) that can be performed with iterative attacks, and adds 2d8 (and other weapon enhancements) on top of it.

It will also have books thrown at you. On the plus side, you can totally blame Snowbluff. :smallbiggrin:

[ByOdin'sBeard]

How comfortable are you with some pretty major cheese? Because here's something discussed in this very forum a long while back - Aptitude Weapon + Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike + Bow. Blame Snowbluff.

I actually read that forum from 2014 with you and snowbluff, granted it was at 3am and i wasn't processing anything.

Snowbluff's loopholes make builds skip tiers I swear.

I may just be using this.

EDIT:

Also, when using that build with aptitude, is there no way for your bow to have range? Because I mean it still is technically a melee attack for claws right?

[Red Fel]

Also, when using that build with aptitude, is there no way for your bow to have range? Because I mean it still is technically a melee attack for claws right?

You put Aptitude on the Bow. Now the Bow functions as your weapon of choice, here Unarmed Strikes, would for purposes of various feats. Those feats are Beast Strikes and Eldritch Claws. Thus, when firing your bow, it is as if you are firing your Unarmed Strikes for purposes of those feats. You're adding your EB damage to Bow instead of to Unarmed Strikes, reading the effect of the feat while ignoring its actual name. So, yes, the bow has range. It's sort of like placing the Throwing enhancement on a Necklace of Natural Weapons and then "throwing" your fists as a ranged attack.

Like I said. Major cheese.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

You put Aptitude on the Bow. Now the Bow functions as your weapon of choice, here Unarmed Strikes, would for purposes of various feats. Those feats are Beast Strikes and Eldritch Claws. Thus, when firing your bow, it is as if you are firing your Unarmed Strikes for purposes of those feats. You're adding your EB damage to Bow instead of to Unarmed Strikes, reading the effect of the feat while ignoring its actual name. So, yes, the bow has range. It's sort of like placing the Throwing enhancement on a Necklace of Natural Weapons and then "throwing" your fists as a ranged attack.

Like I said. Major cheese.

Major cheese yes, but I mean technically RAW? that's amazingly horrible and it's gonna be used!

This poor guy is barely hitting anything in combat before the other players get to it, so this will be perfect. Thank you for the breakdown of this, I didn't quite understand it in the previous thread.

[Red Fel]

Major cheese yes, but I mean technically RAW? that's amazingly horrible and it's gonna be used!

This poor guy is barely hitting anything in combat before the other players get to it, so this will be perfect. Thank you for the breakdown of this, I didn't quite understand it in the previous thread.

It's basically a search and replace. You take the weapon type of the Aptitude weapon (here Bow), and go to a weapon-specific feat (here Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws) to replace instances of the specific weapon (here Unarmed Strikes) with instances of the Aptitude weapon (again, Bow). The end result is that the Aptitude weapon functions as itself, but enjoys any bonuses to the specific weapon (here, EB damage) provided by the feats.

Be clear on one thing, though. The Eldritch Claws feat, alone, is not sufficient to pull this off. Eldritch Claws only allows you to make two EB claw attacks. You need to also have the Beast Strike feat (Dragon #355), which adds claw damage to Unarmed Strikes. This is where Aptitude comes in - you replace "Unarmed Strikes" in Beast Strike with "Bow," your Aptitude weapon. Here's how it plays out. Key terms are in parentheses for ease of reading.
Eldritch Claws: You can make two claw attacks that deal (Unarmed Strikes) + EB damage.
Beast Strikes: You can add your claw damage - that's (Unarmed Strikes) + EB - to your (Unarmed Strikes), for a total of (Unarmed Strikes) + (Unarmed Strikes) + EB damage.
Aptitude Bow: Replace instances of a specified weapon in a feat or feats with this weapon, (Bow).
Go back to Eldritch Claws: You can make two claw attacks that deal (Bow) + EB damage.
Go back to Beast Strikes: You can add your claw damage - that's (Bow) + EB - to your (Bow), for a total of (Bow) + (Bow) + EB damage.
Your attacks with your (Bow) now deal double their base damage, plus EB.
Fact is, your Warlock probably shouldn't be out-DPSing anybody. And there are means by which to strike at range, such as Eldritch Spear. But if you really want cheese, it can be done. Just be prepared to dodge books thrown at your head.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

It's basically a search and replace. You take the weapon type of the Aptitude weapon (here Bow), and go to a weapon-specific feat (here Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws) to replace instances of the specific weapon (here Unarmed Strikes) with instances of the Aptitude weapon (again, Bow). The end result is that the Aptitude weapon functions as itself, but enjoys any bonuses to the specific weapon (here, EB damage) provided by the feats.

Be clear on one thing, though. The Eldritch Claws feat, alone, is not sufficient to pull this off. Eldritch Claws only allows you to make two EB claw attacks. You need to also have the Beast Strike feat (Dragon #355), which adds claw damage to Unarmed Strikes. This is where Aptitude comes in - you replace "Unarmed Strikes" in Beast Strike with "Bow," your Aptitude weapon. Here's how it plays out. Key terms are in parentheses for ease of reading.
Eldritch Claws: You can make two claw attacks that deal (Unarmed Strikes) + EB damage.
Beast Strikes: You can add your claw damage - that's (Unarmed Strikes) + EB - to your (Unarmed Strikes), for a total of (Unarmed Strikes) + (Unarmed Strikes) + EB damage.
Aptitude Bow: Replace instances of a specified weapon in a feat or feats with this weapon, (Bow).
Go back to Eldritch Claws: You can make two claw attacks that deal (Bow) + EB damage.
Go back to Beast Strikes: You can add your claw damage - that's (Bow) + EB - to your (Bow), for a total of (Bow) + (Bow) + EB damage.
Your attacks with your (Bow) now deal double their base damage, plus EB.
Fact is, your Warlock probably shouldn't be out-DPSing anybody. And there are means by which to strike at range, such as Eldritch Spear. But if you really want cheese, it can be done. Just be prepared to dodge books thrown at your head.

That all makes sense, awesome. Now because ED only allows up to 2 claw attacks, that means that you only get 2 attacks with the bow as well right?

Rapid shot, manyshot, etc... wouldn't apply and i don't have to start throwing books back if he attempts to do that?

[Red Fel]

That all makes sense, awesome. Now because ED only allows up to 2 claw attacks, that means that you only get 2 attacks with the bow as well right?

Rapid shot, manyshot, etc... wouldn't apply and i don't have to start throwing books back if he attempts to do that?

Well... No.

Yes, EC only allows up to two claw attacks. But that's why we have Beast Strike, which adds your claw damage to your unarmed strikes - which are iterative. Thus, you have as many EB/EC-charged arrows as you have iterative attacks.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Well... No.

Yes, EC only allows up to two claw attacks. But that's why we have Beast Strike, which adds your claw damage to your unarmed strikes - which are iterative. Thus, you have as many EB/EC-charged arrows as you have iterative attacks.

OH.

I swear I'm not always this slow, I'm going to blame night shifts. Okay this all makes sense now, apologies for the run around there. This is awsome and cheesily-broken, but I definitely wanna give it a test run -- if it proves too much, guess he can deal with a clawlock/Glaivelock for a warlock. Thank you for all the info!

[snailgosh]

That all makes sense, awesome. Now because ED only allows up to 2 claw attacks, that means that you only get 2 attacks with the bow as well right?

Rapid shot, manyshot, etc... wouldn't apply and i don't have to start throwing books back if he attempts to do that?

Well...Eldritch Claws gives you two natural weapons with damage based on your Eldritch Blast. You usually don't get to use your iterative attacks with natural weapons.

The aptitude bow, however, isn't a natural weapon and doesn't care about that limitation. It only cares about the claws damage calculation, which it gets to apply on every successful attack.
You are still attacking with a bow and are subject to all the regular attacking-with-a-bow-rules. It just gets to hit harder.

edit: should have refreshed the page before answering.

[Rebel7284]

Why not just persistent blood wind on a clawlock? Your can flavor the attacks as forming a bow. One level dip into cleric and two feats or a couple of items+UMD

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Well...Eldritch Claws gives you two natural weapons with damage based on your Eldritch Blast. You usually don't get to use your iterative attacks with natural weapons.

The aptitude bow, however, isn't a natural weapon and doesn't care about that limitation. It only cares about the claws damage calculation, which it gets to apply on every successful attack.
You are still attacking with a bow and are subject to all the regular attacking-with-a-bow-rules. It just gets to hit harder.

edit: should have refreshed the page before answering.

So I may have to throw books if he wants to use rapidshot and such? Lol

[animewatcha]

It's basically a search and replace. You take the weapon type of the Aptitude weapon (here Bow), and go to a weapon-specific feat (here Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws) to replace instances of the specific weapon (here Unarmed Strikes) with instances of the Aptitude weapon (again, Bow). The end result is that the Aptitude weapon functions as itself, but enjoys any bonuses to the specific weapon (here, EB damage) provided by the feats.

Be clear on one thing, though. The Eldritch Claws feat, alone, is not sufficient to pull this off. Eldritch Claws only allows you to make two EB claw attacks. You need to also have the Beast Strike feat (Dragon #355), which adds claw damage to Unarmed Strikes. This is where Aptitude comes in - you replace "Unarmed Strikes" in Beast Strike with "Bow," your Aptitude weapon. Here's how it plays out. Key terms are in parentheses for ease of reading.
Eldritch Claws: You can make two claw attacks that deal (Unarmed Strikes) + EB damage.
Beast Strikes: You can add your claw damage - that's (Unarmed Strikes) + EB - to your (Unarmed Strikes), for a total of (Unarmed Strikes) + (Unarmed Strikes) + EB damage.
Aptitude Bow: Replace instances of a specified weapon in a feat or feats with this weapon, (Bow).
Go back to Eldritch Claws: You can make two claw attacks that deal (Bow) + EB damage.
Go back to Beast Strikes: You can add your claw damage - that's (Bow) + EB - to your (Bow), for a total of (Bow) + (Bow) + EB damage.
Your attacks with your (Bow) now deal double their base damage, plus EB.
Fact is, your Warlock probably shouldn't be out-DPSing anybody. And there are means by which to strike at range, such as Eldritch Spear. But if you really want cheese, it can be done. Just be prepared to dodge books thrown at your head.

To add onto this, can we have Superior Unarmed Strike to have damage up to 2d6 with said bow. Snap kick allowing an extra attack at -2 penalty...

[Ruethgar]

Fact is, your Warlock probably shouldn't be out-DPSing anybody. The Hellfire Warlock of every Bloodline Uncanny Trickster Legacy Champion with a Strongheart Vest begs to differ. How many d6s is that? 150d6 per EB at the very least.

[Troacctid]

The Hellfire Warlock of every Bloodline Uncanny Trickster Legacy Champion with a Strongheart Vest begs to differ. How many d6s is that? 150d6 per EB at the very least.
By my count, it's 31d6 per blast at level 20, assuming your DM allows prestige class abilities to progress beyond their normal level cap, which is not at all a given.

[Ruethgar]

By RAW you can take all 74 bloodline levels as you reach level 2 with no cost, so 148 from there. Be a human so all of those levels net you skill points. That’s a level 7 entry into Hellfire 8/9/10 UnT for +4d6 (which could be ruled by an insane GM to be advanced by bloodlines since it’s every level after first). Legacy for +14d6 for 166d6 from the Hellfire Blast class feature before normal EB damage.

[Troacctid]

By RAW you can take all 74 bloodline levels as you reach level 2 with no cost, so 148 from there. Be a human so all of those levels net you skill points. That’s a level 7 entry into Hellfire 8/9/10 UnT for +4d6 (which could be ruled by an insane GM to be advanced by bloodlines since it’s every level after first). Legacy for +14d6 for 166d6 from the Hellfire Blast class feature before normal EB damage.
That's...not what RAW says.

[Powerdork]

That's...not what RAW says.

I have just checked, and indeed, in the entirety of the text surrounding bloodlines in Unearthed Arcana, RAW says nothing about characters actually selecting or entering play with a bloodline. Except, that is, it works best when you work with the DM.