Epic Level Spells you have made.

[Yogibear41]

People always talk about how broken epic spellcasting is, both broken bad and broken good if you do it the right way. Was wondering what Epic spells some people in the playground have actually created and used in game.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've made quite a few epic spells, using the material component mitigation factor that Mummy Dust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/mummyDust.htm) has and using Dweomerkeeper to avoid paying the cost.

I made a spell that nukes everything in a light year radius.


Ragnarok
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: 12,000 light years
Area: 1 light year radius
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude for half
Seeds: Destroy

You deal one octillion +20d20 of untyped damage (fort for half) to all targets in a one light year radius. If the targets are reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), they are utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter is affected, so this spell destroys only part of any very large object or structure targeted. This spell affects even magical matter, energy fields, and force effects that are normally only affected by the disintegrate spell.

Such effects are automatically destroyed. Epic spells using the ward seed may also be destroyed, though the caster must succeed at an opposed caster level check against the other spellcaster to bring down a ward spell.

Material Component: 10,000,000,000,157,700,000,000,250,127,500 GP


I think I crunched everything correctly? :smallsmile:

[Yogibear41]

There has to be a rule somewhere that Dweomerkeepers can't turn epic spells into SU abilities, if there isn't there should be. :smallconfused:

[Mr Adventurer]

Unless it's a spread people behind walls are fine

[Malphegor]

There has to be a rule somewhere that Dweomerkeepers can't turn epic spells into SU abilities, if there isn't there should be. :smallconfused:

considering that fluffwise they started off as caretakers and promoters of magic use, that kinda does make sense though.

A dweomerkeeper strolling through town doing impossible things (even for magic) does help prospective wizards and magic lovers go "oh, right, we need to keep magic going and not let this amazing thing disappear"

I like to think of dweomerkeepers as having more 'rights' in magic because they are there to protect magic itself fluffwise.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There has to be a rule somewhere that Dweomerkeepers can't turn epic spells into SU abilities, if there isn't there should be. :smallconfused:

No such rule exists. :smallsmile:


Unless it's a spread people behind walls are fine

Pretty sure it'd vaporize the planet they're standing on.

[unseenmage]

Unless there's a rule I'm missing large objects are damaged in 10' cubes so it might only vaporize the outer layer of said planet.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Unless there's a rule I'm missing large objects are damaged in 10' cubes so it might only vaporize the outer layer of said planet.

True, the targeting rules are kind of weird for the disintegrate seed. I may have to see if I can modify it to damage larger objects.

[tyckspoon]

True, the targeting rules are kind of weird for the disintegrate seed. I may have to see if I can modify it to damage larger objects.

You're doing enough raw damage to blow through anything that is actually subject to HP damage, so you could just use the default 'deal energy damage' seed and then combo in a minimal Destroy seed to deal with inconveniently placed Force effects.

Edit: Or do two separate spells, just to avoid arguing with somebody about how it should work trying to sequencing inside of a single one - one minimal-damage Destroy spell to scour the top 10 feet off of any significant physical barriers and remove any barriers that spell can reach, and then a full damage energy blast to just blow through anything that can be destroyed that way. At a minimum you should be able to remove nearly all life from the area of effect.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're doing enough raw damage to blow through anything that is actually subject to HP damage, so you could just use the default 'deal energy damage' seed and then combo in a minimal Destroy seed to deal with inconveniently placed Force effects.

Edit: Or do two separate spells, just to avoid arguing with somebody about how it should work trying to sequencing inside of a single one - one minimal-damage Destroy spell to scour the top 10 feet off of any significant physical barriers and remove any barriers that spell can reach, and then a full damage energy blast to just blow through anything that can be destroyed that way. At a minimum you should be able to remove nearly all life from the area of effect.

I think I'd do the latter.

[Sleven]

Why bother with Dweomerkeeper. It's epic, you can just take Ignore Material Components.

Mitigate away.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Why bother with Dweomerkeeper. It's epic, you can just take Ignore Material Components.

IIRC, feats can't affect epic spells. Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell a class feature, so it neatly bypasses that restriction.

[Lleban]

I don't remember the specifics but I once used the life, conjure, fortify, and destroy seed to make an adamantium war of the worlds esque tripod with a death beam SLA.

[unseenmage]

I did once use the origin of species epic spell to create a race that qualified for all of the shape dependant monster feats from Savage Species.

Years later I effectively did the same thing with monstrous humanoid statues, Minor Servitor/Permanent Animate Objects, and Incarnate Construct.

[Sleven]

IIRC, feats can't affect epic spells. Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell a class feature, so it neatly bypasses that restriction.

You misunderstand me. Ignore Material Components allows you to instantly Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) an item of any value you need as a mitigating material component.

Of course, IIRC material components are an ad hoc mitigating factor extrapolated from a few of the sample spells, and not one on the official list. I'm also pretty sure mitigating factors like time and xp are capped so you can't mitigate beyond a certain point without using the additional participants mitigating factor. Therefore, it would only be logical to place one on material components as well. But then again, it's been years since I opened the ELH and actually went to the epic spells section for custom epic spells.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You misunderstand me. Ignore Material Components allows you to instantly Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) an item of any value you need as a mitigating material component.

Ah, I see what you're getting at.


Of course, IIRC material components are an ad hoc mitigating factor extrapolated from a few of the sample spells, and not one on the official list.

It's from the Mummy Dust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/mummyDust.htm) spell.


I'm also pretty sure mitigating factors like time and xp are capped so you can't mitigate beyond a certain point without using the additional participants mitigating factor. Therefore, it would only be logical to place one on material components as well. But then again, it's been years since I opened the ELH and actually went to the epic spells section for custom epic spells.

You're right about time and XP being capped, but the book doesn't say material components are.

A far easier method of mitigation is to repeatedly add the Fortify seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm) to give a creature +0 spell resistance to reduce the DC by -23. You can do that over and over again until the final DC is 0.

[Vaern]

You misunderstand me. Ignore Material Components allows you to instantly Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) an item of any value you need as a mitigating material component.
That's debatable as, in the case of Fabricate in particular, the material component for the spell is also the target of the spell.


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material... ...The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication.
You can cast the spell without material components, even without Ignore Material Components, but doing so would only result in the creation of an "item" composed of nothing and with no quality.

[Xasten]

This isn't quite what you asked, but I've refined the Epic Casting system in my game, and we had a few spells created and used in our last campaign. We rebalanced the spells in general and took a very holistic approach to the casting DC for new spells.

EPIC SPELL CASTING

1. Spells /day

Players may cast a number of epic spells equal to their ranks in Spellcraft divided by 8. These spells are prepared or spontaneous depending on the caster’s base class.

2. Casting Epic Spells

Casting an epic spell requires a successful Epic Casting Check (ECC). A caster’s ECC is equal to Caster Level + (Spellcraft modifier / 5) + Casting Stat Modifier + Misc Bonuses. Note that the casting stat is potentially used twice in these calculations: once in the spellcraft / 5 calculation, and once again as a raw bonus. A 21st level caster, on average, should have around a 39 ECC Modifier.

The base DC for casting all epic spells starts at 50. A 21st level caster should have approximately a 50% chance of success. Individual spells will be easier or more difficult to cast based upon situational modifiers, their individual difficulty, and other factors.

Epic spells count as 10th level spells for all game purposes unless otherwise specified.

3. Magic Transparency Rules

Epic spells obey all normal rules for dispelling, countering, and such. The psionics-magic transparency is still in effect. A non-epic (CL 20th and below) caster attempting to dispel, counter, or adversely influence an epic spell or effect faces a +5 modifier on the relevant check. (NOTE: The spirit of the rules is that it’s about 20% harder to unravel and harm the unique and advanced techniques of epic magic if a caster has no experience with epic magic).

All epic martial maneuvers also use the same basic rules.

4. Crafting Epic spells

Come up with a really cool idea, and contact your DM. The base idea is that epic spells start with a “seed” as described in the Epic Level Handbook. A spell with multiple effects (say, a mind control spell that damages the target) might use the “compulsion” and “energy” seeds. Multiple seeds will raise the DC. Once the seeds are selected, the strength of the effect is then chosen. More damage, dice, longer durations, other perks, etc. will raise the DC. Finally, mitigating factors are applied. Longer casting times, backlash damage to the caster, material components, foci, xp costs, etc will all lower the DC.

NOTE: Some effects (such as healing) are generally the purview of one type of caster (divine in the case of healing). Arcane casters may use divine effects, and vice versa, but these are often costly to reproduce (+5 or +10, normally, to ECC DC), and some (powerful) divine effects may require a sponsoring deity to reproduce.

5. Sample Epic Spells

Penelope’s Lament
Evocation / Transmutation | [ Energy Seed ] / [ Transform Seed ]
ECC DC: 50
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: 2 Miles – Caster MUST have clear and unobstructed line of sight.
Target: 1,000’ square affected area over 2,000’ square target area.
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text Note)
Saving Throw: Yes (Ref Fire Damage 75%)/ (Fort Sonic Damage 75% Half)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Fire damage only)

Let the flesh of the earth bleed as bitterly as the wound in my heart.

Effect: Penelope’s Lament deals 10d6 fire damage and 10d6 sonic damage to every target in the area of effect. 800 small spheres spring forth each exploding in a 20’ radius burst. The caster can saturate an area of approximately 1,000 square feet. Spheres may not overlap, and no two spheres may be more than 3000’ apart. The caster essentially has 1,000 square feet of explosion which may be roughly blanketed over 2,000 square feet. Evasion may only reduce the fire damage to 50%.

Note: This effect leaves an unknown residue of silvery crystal dust in the affected area.

Material Component: Alchemically treated pitchblende which is refined into a fine, spongey yellow powder. 2,000 GP.

Ravenous Void of Saturn
Conjuration [ Teleportation ] / Necromancy | [ Transport Seed ] / [ Life Seed ] / [ Death Seed ]
ECC DC: 60
Components: V, S
Casting Time: See text
Range: Long
Target: Any animate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort one quarter & Will One quarter
Spell Resistance: Yes

Surrender to the nothing and embrace eternity.

Effect: Ravenous Void of Saturn deals 40d6 damage if cast as a full round action. However, it may be channeled up to three full rounds. Note that the casting time is in full rounds which is not the same as a 1 round (or more) casting time. On the 2nd full round the void grows and deals an additional 15d6 of damage, and on the 3rd full round of channeling, the spell deals an additional 25d6 of damage for a total of 80d6 of damage. Note: this damage is untyped and works in a similar fashion to a Sphere of Annihilation.

The ECC is made immediately when the caster attempts the spell. He must make a DC 45 check for each additional full round of channeling. The caster may not hold the charge of the spell and it must be unleased upon an animate target by the third round or the Ravenous Void will turn to the caster. This is not a spell to be cast lightly.

Creation / Research: As part of learning this spell, the caster must complete a ritual linking him to the Saturn Blade. The blade need not be present, and the lab aboard the Icarus is sufficient to ritually link the blade as a focus that may be used regardless of distance or possession.

Paradox Equation
(I don't have the spell stats handy, but it gave a massive minus on the target's next save)

6. Feats

Finessed Dweomer [Epic]
Prerequisites: Epic Spell Casting
Benefit: When casting an epic spell, the caster may roll an extra D20 and take the higher result.

Epic Spell Focus [Epic]
Prerequisites: Epic Spell Casting
Benefit: The caster gains a +4 to all epic casting checks.

[Âmesang]

So I took a lot of liberties with the epic spell rules for these couple of spells (if not outright adjusting or ignoring some of 'em) …but, granted, the rules for epic spells are screwy anyway (and weren't even fully updated to 3.5, honestly; see teleport and the transport seed). I also recognize that at least one of these spells is kind of pointless given other options, but they were fun to piece together, anyway:

BENEDICTION
Conjuration (Healing)
Spellcraft DC 64
Components V, S, DF, Ritual, XP
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range 300 ft.; see text
Target One creature/participant, no two of which can be more than 300 ft. apart; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless) or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance Yes (harmless) or Yes; see text
DESCRIPTIONThis spell functions like heal, greater restoration, and resurrection, except as noted above. Additionally, the spell cures all hit point damage, reverses level drains lost within the last 20 weeks, and returns to life a creature dead for no longer than two hundred years.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifAgainst undead, the influx of positive energy causes the loss of all but 1d4 hit points if the undead fails a saving throw.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifFor each participant sacrificing a 6th-level spell slot add one additional target and increase the range by 50% (450 ft., 600 ft., etc.).
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifXP Cost: 2,000 XP
SPELLCRAFTING REQUIREMENTSSeeds heal (DC 25), life (DC 27); Factors 1-action casting time (+20 DC), restore permanently drained ability score points (+6 DC), dispel all negative levels afflicting the target (+2 DC), change from touch to target (+4 DC), each additional target (+10 DC; see text), increase range by 50% (+1 DC; see text); Mitigating factors each additional caster contributing one 6th-level spell slot (–11 DC; see text), burn 2,000 XP (–20 DC); Cost 576,000 gp, 23,040 XP, 12 days

SUMMON KORD
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaotic, Good]
Spellcraft DC 76
Components V, S, XP
Casting Time 10 minutes
Range 150 ft.
Effect One summoned deity
Duration 1 hour (D)
Saving Throw Will negates
Spell Resistance Yes
DESCRIPTIONThis spell can summon Kord, Suel God of Strength. Summoning him from the Heroic Domains of Ysgard is a long and arduous process, requiring the spellcaster to know Kord's name and some facts about his life, defeat any magical protection against discovery or other protection possessed by him, overcome Kord's spell resistance and requiring him to fail a Will saving throw.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifEven if all such conditions are met, the Suel God is under no special compulsion to serve the caster.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifXP Cost: 20,000 XP
SPELLCRAFTING REQUIREMENTSSeed summon (DC 14); Factors summon unique individual (+60 DC), +30 on caster level check to overcome individual's spell resistance (+60 DC), increase saving throw DC by +50 (+100 DC), increase range by 100% (+2 DC), increase duration by 2,900% (+58 DC); Mitigating factors increase casting time by 9 minutes (–18 DC), burn 20,000 XP (–200 DC); Cost 684,000 gp, 27,360 XP, 14 days

MAVIN'S WORLDWEAVE[1]
Conjuration (Summoning)/Necromancy/Transmutation [Netherese]
Spellcraft DC 100
Components V, M
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range Unlimited
Area 1-mile-radius/level circle
Duration Permanent
Saving Throw None
Spell Resistance No
DESCRIPTION The worldweave allowed an archmage to change the weather patterns of a large parcel of land until dispelled. Throughout Netheril's existence, this spell was used hundreds of times to stay the effects of the polar ice in its northern borders. This gave Netheril's land a temperate climate instead of one more suited for its placement on the globe—a subarctic clime.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifWhen cast, the archmage was able to change the climate of an area by one grade—either up or down. Refer to the table to determine the grade changes possible. It was possible to change the climate more than one step, but multiple layers of Mavin's worldweave were required.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifMaterial Components: Raiment of the stormwalker[2] and an orb of tempests[3]
SPELLCRAFTING REQUIREMENTSSeed energy (weather) (DC 25), forsee (to preview effected landscape) (DC 17); Factors area level dependent (ad hoc +25 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), unlimited range (ad hoc ×2 DC), permanent duration (×5 DC); Mitigating factors decrease area by 50% (ad hoc –4 DC), expensive material components (ad hoc –75 DC); Cost 900,000 gp, 36,000 XP, 18 days




Tropic

Subtropic

Temperate

Subarctic


Artic

4

3

2

1


Subarctic

3

2

1

—


Temperate

2

1

—

1


Subtropic

1

—

1

2


[1] Netheril: Encyclopedia Arcana, p.11
[2] Magic Item Compendium, p.205
[3] Lost Empires of Faerûn, p.155
At some point I would like to create an epic spell version of the Invoked Devastation, something more than just an "area effect disintegrate" as Maldin (https://melkot.com/mysteries/twincat-mech.html) did; personally I'm thinking of using the transport seed to create a kind of "precipitate planar rip" for a base effect (if regular spells can transport people from one point on a plane to another, or transport people from one plane to another, why not an epic spell that "transports" one plane to another?).

[Telok]

I don't recall the specifics, and the campaign crashed 3 levels before epic anyways, but I had three epic psion powers planned at one point.

1. Create Foo Monster. Essentially created a race of loyal, self replicating, low hit die, construct tribbles with low level manifesting. Mitigation minions.

2. Refreshing Prescience. Mitigated to really cheap with backlash, casting time, and something else. It was a permanent 1/round copy of the Prescience power. A sort of quick and dirty stat/save/skill/etc. booster spell.

3. Redirect Teleport. A 500-ish foot radius field that redirected all incoming teleportation into a Sphere of Annihilation. Mitigated partially by needing an "artifact" focus. What it actually did was open a portal area to the surface of the sphere while the teleport arrived, thus making the destination of the teleport also be the surface of the sphere. But you had to have the sphere in a known place on the same plane.

[Crake]

IIRC, feats can't affect epic spells. Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell a class feature, so it neatly bypasses that restriction.

It's supernatural spell though, not supernatural epic spell. Epic spells aren't actually the same as regular spells, and unless something specifies it functions on epic spells, it doesn't.

[tyckspoon]

It's supernatural spell though, not supernatural epic spell. Epic spells aren't actually the same as regular spells, and unless something specifies it functions on epic spells, it doesn't.

The relevant Dweomerkeeper ability just says 'spells', with no further limits or descriptions. As much as I would like that to not work, I'm fairly convinced it does. It's just another example of 'Epic spells are broken when you find a way to apply arbitrary amounts of mitigation', ultimately, so it's not like it's really new information as far as that goes.

[Crake]

The relevant Dweomerkeeper ability just says 'spells', with no further limits or descriptions. As much as I would like that to not work, I'm fairly convinced it does. It's just another example of 'Epic spells are broken when you find a way to apply arbitrary amounts of mitigation', ultimately, so it's not like it's really new information as far as that goes.

Epic spells say that feats and abilities that work on "spells" do not work on them, you can't metamagic them, you can't ignore material components them, you can't innate spell them, and you certainly can't supernatural transformation them.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Epic spells say that feats and abilities that work on "spells" do not work on them, you can't metamagic them, you can't ignore material components them, you can't innate spell them, and you certainly can't supernatural transformation them.

No, this is what the rules say:



Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.

Just feats, nothing about class features.

[tyckspoon]

Epic spells say that feats and abilities that work on "spells" do not work on them, you can't metamagic them, you can't ignore material components them, you can't innate spell them, and you certainly can't supernatural transformation them.

Got a reference? I've found



Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.

Which is pretty clear that its scope is only restricted to feats. That leaves plenty of room for class abilities that are not and do not mimic feats to apply to Epic Spells - for example, while an Incantatrix could not Persist an Epic Spell effect (because that would be applying a metamagic to an epic spell), they could try to Snatch Spell one to steal somebody else's epic buff.

[Crake]

Got a reference? I've found



Which is pretty clear that its scope is only restricted to feats. That leaves plenty of room for class abilities that are not and do not mimic feats to apply to Epic Spells - for example, while an Incantatrix could not Persist an Epic Spell effect (because that would be applying a metamagic to an epic spell), they could try to Snatch Spell one to steal somebody else's epic buff.

You need to remember that was written back in 3.0 where feats were the only things that could manipulate spells in any way, there was no incantatrix as we know it today, there was no dweomerkeeper, feats were the singular method of affecting spells in any way.

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that epic spells are a separate thing. They function in a different way to normal spells, and don't fall under the general purview of regular spellcasting.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You need to remember that was written back in 3.0 where feats were the only things that could manipulate spells in any way, there was no incantatrix as we know it today, there was no dweomerkeeper, feats were the singular method of affecting spells in any way.

Archmage?


Either way, I think it's pretty clear that epic spells are a separate thing. They function in a different way to normal spells, and don't fall under the general purview of regular spellcasting.

Unless you can produce a quote stating otherwise, there is nothing barring one from use class abilities on epic spells.

[tyckspoon]

You need to remember that was written back in 3.0 where feats were the only things that could manipulate spells in any way, there was no incantatrix as we know it today, there was no dweomerkeeper, feats were the singular method of affecting spells in any way.

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that epic spells are a separate thing. They function in a different way to normal spells, and don't fall under the general purview of regular spellcasting.

If you're going to argue from intent to say you can't use an infinitely-mitigated spell, you don't have to read into words that aren't actually there - just point out that your DM is supposed to adjudicate and modify any proposed Epic spells and that mitigating away millions of Spellcraft DC to create a 'free' spell that will obliterate a notable portion of a star system is blatantly insane.

[Crake]

Archmage?

The archmage wasn't in the 3.0 DMG, there was only the arcane archer, the assassin, black guard, dwarven defender, loremaster and shadowdancer.


Unless you can produce a quote stating otherwise, there is nothing barring one from use class abilities on epic spells.

How about the fact that epic spells are not regular spells, the same way SLAs aren't regular spells. Something that affects spells doesn't affect SLAs by default, likewise applies to epic spells. They may be similar, but they are not the same. Also, by the scientific method, technically, the onus is on you to supply a quote saying that you CAN use class features that affect spells on epic spells. Can't prove a falsehood and all that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How about the fact that epic spells are not regular spells, the same way SLAs aren't regular spells. Something that affects spells doesn't affect SLAs by default, likewise applies to epic spells. They may be similar, but they are not the same.

Can you provide a citation?



Also, by the scientific method, technically, the onus is on you to supply a quote saying that you CAN use class features that affect spells on epic spells. Can't prove a falsehood and all that.

That's not how RAW works. If it doesn't say that you can't use class features that effect spells, you can.

EDIT: Also:



Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise.

[Crake]

EDIT: Also:

And for SLAs:


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells.


SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.

Can you still supernatural transformation SLAs?

[ColorBlindNinja]

And for SLAs:

Can you still supernatural transformation SLAs?



Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise.

So where's the exception clause for epic magic?

[DarkSoul]

Like pretty much everything dealing with epic spells, it would come down to what the DM allows. In the absence of a DM to rule otherwise there's nothing saying you can, or can't, have a supernatural epic spell.

As a DM: hell no.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Like pretty much everything dealing with epic spells, it would come down to what the DM allows. In the absence of a DM to rule otherwise there's nothing saying you can, or can't, have a supernatural epic spell.

As a DM: hell no.

Assuming I was somehow insane enough to run an epic game with epic spellcasting?

I'd probably allow it and just make gentleman agreements with the players to ensure they don't go overboard.

The problem with epic spellcasting without excessive mitigation, is that it's not very good.

[tyckspoon]

Assuming I was somehow insane enough to run an epic game with epic spellcasting?

I'd probably allow it and just make gentleman agreements with the players to ensure they don't go overboard.

The problem with epic spellcasting without excessive mitigation, is that it's not very good.

They're kind of dull, but the one class of spells it does sort of work for is buffs - the Fortify seed is pretty efficient and doesn't need to be cast in combat time, so you can freely use ritual (Summon Monster 9 and 8 can call casting-capable minions without getting into the deeps Planar Binding/Gating/creating your own permanent army to fuel your epic spells) and/or casting-time extension mitigation on it, and you can make it last between several days to a week without too much fuss, so you can leave the spell slots you use for it available for other purposes on non-casting days.

[ColorBlindNinja]

They're kind of dull, but the one class of spells it does sort of work for is buffs - the Fortify seed is pretty efficient and doesn't need to be cast in combat time, so you can freely use ritual (Summon Monster 9 and 8 can call casting-capable minions without getting into the deeps Planar Binding/Gating/creating your own permanent army to fuel your epic spells) and/or casting-time extension mitigation on it, and you can make it last between several days to a week without too much fuss, so you can leave the spell slots you use for it available for other purposes on non-casting days.

True enough.

And without the insane mitigation, the old 3.5 adage of buffing>blasting remains as true as ever for epic spells.