New player build help part 2

[MetznTrix]

Hi again everyone,

Some new developments since my last thread, after talking to my DM, he has allowed me to use oriental adventures and PHB 2 in addition to PHB 1(these three only) to make a monk, but only a monk as this is also a class in PHB 1. Just to mention again, everyone starts at level 1.
My rolls were:

18
13
13
13
13
7

Would anyone be able to create or suggest a powerful build for the monk? Im guessing to go human monk so I can have 3 feats, but don't know what to pick atm.

Thanks again all info is appreciated.

[Troacctid]

Hmm...neither of those is especially helpful for building a monk, I don't think. Is the 3.5 update in play for Oriental Adventures, or are you using the 3.0 version? The update buffed hengeyokai significantly and would make it a great choice for your race.

[Eldariel]

Sadly Monk isn't going to get much better with those books. Oriental Adventures has some cool stuff but PHBII does little and less, and your stats don't support a Monk. Again, you need Str, Wis, Dex and Con. And Int isn't going to hurt. Out of those stats you must put 18 into Str since you're medium Base Attack Bonus melee and thus have trouble hitting. The thing is, this means you can't get much mileage out of Monk abilities and your Armor Class will be crap-all. On high level (say, few years' worth of sessions if you play 1/week), Oriental Adventures offers some nice things for Monks. Empty Hand Mastery, Freezing the Lifeblood, etc. all do cute things that would enhance you on level 11 or so, but the problem is, you're probably starting on level 1. And Monk has a horrible time on low levels.

Here's what level 1 looks for a Monk:
Attack bonus: +4 (Flurry of Blows for +2/+2)
Damage: 1d6+4 (1d6+6 with Quarterstaff)
Armor Class: 12
Hit Points: 9
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 20
Compare that to a Barbarian with the same stats, a Greatsword and a Scale Mail:
Attack bonus: +5
Damage: 2d6+6 (with 19-20 critical range)
AC: 15
Hit Points: 13
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 20

Yeah. The Barbarian eclipses the Monk in every regard and that's without getting into the fact that the Barbarian has good reach weapons available to him and can Rage. Compare that to some of the basic enemies you may encounter:
Goblin Warrior (CR 1/3 - that means an average level 1 character is as strong as 3 of these)
Attack bonus: +2
Damage: 1d6
Armor Class: 15
Hit Points: 5
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 8
Orc Warrior (CR 1/2 - average level 1 character is as strong as 2 of these)
Attack bonus: +4
Damage: 2d4+4
Armor Class: 13
Hit Points: 5
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 4
Hye (CR 1 - average level 1 character is as strong as this)
Attack bonus: +3
Damage: 1d8+2
Armor Class: 15
Hit Points: 11
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 5
The Monk is taking an awful lot of a beating with armor class and HP that low. That's mostly because a Monk loses their Monk abilities if they wear armor. Sadly, your Wisdom is so low that you probably should wear armor and just not use your Monk abilities.


If you wanted to play the role of a Monk, you could always use the Cleric class instead (it's thematically more or less the same - silent contemplation and perfection of self - but more robust mechanically). Clerics can wear armor no problem (but eventually you can buy the item called "Monk's Belt" to bring the Wisdom to AC thus removing your need for armor) and are quite similar to Monks thematically. A Cleric with:

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 13
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 13
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 7

Would be more than fine. Of course you can do the same as with a Monk and just put the 18 in the Strength and 13 in Wisdom in which case you'll get fewer spells and they'll be easier to resist but you can lay the smackdown more easily.

You could take Improved Unarmed Strike as your 1st level feat (and perhaps play a Half-Orc while at it to get some Strength-bonuses going - though Human could get you Improved Trip, which is probably even better) and then deliver spells like Inflict Light Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm) with your fists. You can do your unarmed damage and your spell damage with a good hit. Of course, that's an overkill against most things on level 1.

Though if you plan on getting the Monk's Belt, you'll get Improved Unarmed Strike with it for free anyways so you don't need to pick up the feat (you can take Craft Wondrous Items on level 3 instead to get it earlier). The good thing about touch spells such as Inflict Light Wounds is that you can keep them until you hit an enemy so unlike with Stunning Fist, missing doesn't cause you to lose the ability. They also target touch AC, which is much lower for all the enemies described here (10 for Orc, 12 for Goblin, 12 for Hyena).

The other thing you can do is buff yourself. Wanna Grapple? Cast Enlarge Person on yourself (you can get the spell from the "Strength"-domain)! You get +5 to your Grapple-checks (and Trip-checks for that matter). And reach (you can hit enemies from 10' away instead of 5' and enemies closing in on you provoke an attack of opportunity) and all other sorts of good stuff. The best part is, as you can cast the spell you can also use Scrolls of it (they cost measly 12.5gp each to craft) instead of having to buy Potions (250gp a piece) for when you wanna use it but don't have daily spells.


Say, Lawful Neutral Human Cleric with Strength and Trickery domains (Trickery adds Hide to your list of class skills with Invisibility as the level 2 spell, and Strength has Enlarge Person and some other nice stuff including the ability to buff your Strength for a turn 1/day) with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as the first level feats could be pretty strong. War-domain isn't bad either but you are probably going for the unarmed option anyways. You could channel negative energy and be able to spontaneously convert your prepared spells into the Inflict-spells (though spontaneous Cures are nice on low level as well).

With Improved Trip, you need 2 more levels to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike but with those 3 feats you could use an unarmed strike for touch attack and to deliver a touch spell, then follow up with an unarmed strike if you successfully trip the opponent.

[MeimuHakurei]

<Cleric talk>

I can second that the Cleric is a good pickup, especially since the class goes very easy on you in terms of spell casting: Wanna keep track of what spells you can prepare? Not to worry, you have all the spells available and just pick what goes into each slot (think of it as building a deck of spells where you only have a certain number of each spell level). Picked a bad/undesired spell? You can spontaneously convert it into a cure/inflict spell (I recommend a good/neutral cleric doing the former) and on the next day, replace it with a different one. Turning Undead is popular for fueling other feats in high-op games, but in encounters with undead hordes, even its base usage is fairly solid. Affecting only undead makes it highly situational, however.

[Particle_Man]

On the other hand, you could play the monk you want and put str as 18. Just have a low ac. If your monk lives, you didn’t see the ac. If your monk dies you can always make a new character.

[Falontani]

You can also do an unarmed duskblade build fairly effectively. The biggest issue isn't even monk, it's your stats combined with lack of material.

[King of Nowhere]

Here's what level 1 looks for a Monk:
Attack bonus: +4 (Flurry of Blows for +2/+2)
Damage: 1d6+4 (1d6+6 with Quarterstaff)
Armor Class: 12
Hit Points: 9
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 20
Compare that to a Barbarian with the same stats, a Greatsword and a Scale Mail:
Attack bonus: +5
Damage: 2d6+6 (with 19-20 critical range)
AC: 15
Hit Points: 13
Movement Speed: 30'
Skill points: 20

Yeah. The Barbarian eclipses the Monk in every regard and that's without getting into the fact that the Barbarian has good reach weapons available to him and can Rage.
You are forgetting that the monk get high saving throws, unlike the barbarian who's bound to become the puppet of anyone with a charm person (rage only gives a mild buff there). Monk get also a bonus feat and a few other minor benefits.
One of my favourite tactic with my monk is to go in the middle of the enemy area to trip-disable enemies so they have a hard time moving around, and have the party wizard blast the area. With improved evasion I rarely take damage, I couldn't use that tactic if I were a barbarian.
Another strategy I like is to grab an enemy caster or rogue in a grapple; I can deal my full unarmed damage in a grapple, while the barbarian would only be able to use a knife for 1d4+STR.

So, the monk isn't completely eclipsed, it has some things going on for him if you can work the situation to your advantage.

I agree, though, that the monk is vastly outmatched by the barbarian. Furthermore, the monk's strenghts are mostly situational (completely useless against a single enemy too big to be tripped or grappled), and difficult to exploit for a green player

[Powerdork]

You can also do an unarmed duskblade build fairly effectively. The biggest issue isn't even monk, it's your stats combined with lack of material.

PHB2 only for the purpose of building a capital-m Monk.

[Particle_Man]

I am beginning to think that sometimes some things have to be experienced to be truly believed, and that the OP should play a monk and embrace it, and then treat it as a learning experience if it dies. And if it doesn't die, hey, have fun with the monk!

[MetznTrix]

You can also do an unarmed duskblade build fairly effectively. The biggest issue isn't even monk, it's your stats combined with lack of material.

Is there any other material, that is official I guess? Which would make this a lot more effective?

[Eldariel]

You are forgetting that the monk get high saving throws, unlike the barbarian who's bound to become the puppet of anyone with a charm person (rage only gives a mild buff there). Monk get also a bonus feat and a few other minor benefits.

True, but ultimately all of that is comparatively fairly inconsequential. Rage actually gives a very significant buff; level 1 Monk and Barb are even in Will-save as are level 3. Level 2, 4, 5, 6 have Monk only +1 ahead. After that they pull ahead slowly but Greater Rage, Indomitable Will and Mighty Rage close the gap a fair bit. Reflex-gap will be there but the Barbarian's larger (and while Raging, vastly larger) HP goes a long way towards mitigating that in most of the circumstances.


One of my favourite tactic with my monk is to go in the middle of the enemy area to trip-disable enemies so they have a hard time moving around, and have the party wizard blast the area. With improved evasion I rarely take damage, I couldn't use that tactic if I were a barbarian.

Well, you can, but it'd be a bit different. Barbarian has a Strength-buff in their kit making them the best non-caster Tripper class in Core and they have good tripping reach weapons so you'd be extremely able to trip all the enemies. You also have enough HP to shrug off damage that might be quite dangerous to Monk (past level 11, which is about where this would kick off, we're talking about +6 Con so +33 HP in addition to vast bases) so while you can't ignore the damage, you're quite able to take the hit and either save for half or not.


Another strategy I like is to grab an enemy caster or rogue in a grapple; I can deal my full unarmed damage in a grapple, while the barbarian would only be able to use a knife for 1d4+STR.

True, but a Barbarian could probably paste said caster easily enough and actually, between the Strength-bonuses and Power Attack, probably deal very comparable damage to the Monk in Grapple too.


So, the monk isn't completely eclipsed, it has some things going on for him if you can work the situation to your advantage.

I agree, though, that the monk is vastly outmatched by the barbarian. Furthermore, the monk's strenghts are mostly situational (completely useless against a single enemy too big to be tripped or grappled), and difficult to exploit for a green player

Monk also needs a lot of levels before any of those things are really big game while Barbarian gets the good stuff from level 1.

[Eldariel]

Is there any other material, that is official I guess? Which would make this a lot more effective?

Exemplars of Evil has the Invisible Fist, which is a massive power-up for the Monks. Combine that with the Dark Moon Disciple from the Champions of Ruin Web Enhancement and you have a very usable stealth/assassin chassis.

The only thing you could really use to improve upon that is Chaos Monk or Wild Monk from Dragon Magazine (don't remember the number but you can google it).

Rest would mostly be access to vstious buff spells; Monks benefit tremendously from certain buffs, most importantly Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon). Complete Divine has a Monk/Cleric combo class (Prestige Class) named Sacred Fist, which is quite good but doesn't help for a while yet. Finally, Secrets of Sarlona has Tashalatora, which essentially lets you make a pretty good Psionic Monk, but that requires getting into and learning Psionics of course (fluffwise they are mostly identical with the Monk: mind over matter).

[Troacctid]

Exemplars of Evil has the Invisible Fist, which is a massive power-up for the Monks. Combine that with the Dark Moon Disciple from the Champions of Ruin Web Enhancement and you have a very usable stealth/assassin chassis.

The only thing you could really use to improve upon that is Chaos Monk or Wild Monk from Dragon Magazine (don't remember the number but you can google it).

Rest would mostly be access to vstious buff spells; Monks benefit tremendously from certain buffs, most importantly Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon). Complete Divine has a Monk/Cleric combo class (Prestige Class) named Sacred Fist, which is quite good but doesn't help for a while yet. Finally, Secrets of Sarlona has Tashalatora, which essentially lets you make a pretty good Psionic Monk, but that requires getting into and learning Psionics of course (fluffwise they are mostly identical with the Monk: mind over matter).
Some more good ones: The Champions of Valor "Benefits of Membership" web enhancement (free online here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)) has the Dark Moon Disciple, which makes you permanently invisible at level 7 as long as you're not in direct sunlight. Dragon Magazine #310 has the Martial Monk, which loses 1 skill point per level in exchange for letting you select any fighter bonus feat instead of the normal monk bonus feats (and multiclass freely as a fighter); and the Raging Monk, which trades flurry of blows for rage.

There are also a fair number of prestige classes that can substantially improve a monk at higher levels, like Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane), Fist of Zuoken (Expanded Psionics Handbook, also SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm)), Jaunter (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits), Master of the North/South/East/West Wind (Dragon Magazine #314), Sacred Fist (Complete Divine), and Zerth Cenobite (Complete Psionic). Oriental Adventures does give you access to Henshin Mystic and Tattooed Monk, both of which are decent, so that's something.

[Hackulator]

True, but ultimately all of that is comparatively fairly inconsequential. Rage actually gives a very significant buff; level 1 Monk and Barb are even in Will-save as are level 3. Level 2, 4, 5, 6 have Monk only +1 ahead. After that they pull ahead slowly but Greater Rage, Indomitable Will and Mighty Rage close the gap a fair bit. Reflex-gap will be there but the Barbarian's larger (and while Raging, vastly larger) HP goes a long way towards mitigating that in most of the circumstances.

The argument about the Rage buff is somewhat disingenuous as Rage has very limited uses per day early while the monk's will save is always good.

[King of Nowhere]

stuff on monks vs barbarians

True, I did specify that barbarian is generally better than monk.
I'm just saying that the monk has its perks, and you can have plenty of fun playing one if you can work on them.

So many people here think that playing a monk is a horrible succession of boredom and helplessness, punctuated by random deaths at the hands of goblins. That's a wild exaggeration of it.

[Eldariel]

Is there any other material, that is official I guess? Which would make this a lot more effective?

Ultimately though, the problem here is threefold:

1. Monks are comparatively the weakest class in Core already out of the box. They excel in nothing and their numbers are lower than the other Core classes'.
2. Monks are at their weakest on low levels (again, comparatively to other martial classes). Once you get some unarmed die sizes, Greater Flurry and what have you, you can become a decent beatstick. All of that is down the line though and you'd have to suffer through a lot of levels to get a minor payoff (this is mostly compared to Barbarians/Fighters, who have less scaling in Core but start out far enough ahead that you only ever play catch-up; casters are far ahead).
3. Monks need a lot of good stats to be even decent. You have the 18 and that's nice, but at the very least you'd want for the rest of the stats to contain 3 14s (preferably 16s).


You can throw books at problem #1 to make it less of an issue. The power gap will still be there but probably not as significant in a less experienced party. However, problem #2 is hard to solve with books and problem #3 will always be there no matter what you do1. Thus, even if you get all sources approved you'll have to roll with an AC 12 Monk for the time being; which you can do but if the game contains normal enemies, that's a huge risk for a melee type with low HP and no reach-based defenses. As Belkar put it in one of the OotS prequels, why spend 20 levels making your unarmed strikes as good as weapons if you could instead just wield weapons?


1 It's possible to reduce the multiple attribute dependency of the Monk but that takes a lot of sources and building including Tome of Battle, with which you have little reason for taking more than 2 Monk levels anyways.


Thus, the alternative is what we call "refluffing". What do you like about the Monk? Is it the unarmed, unarmored martial arts badassness? The silent contemplation and cryptic phrases? Or just the alluring-looking pile of mostly irrelevant class features? If it's one of the former two, you can play another class and call it a Monk. Take levels in Cleric, wield Monk weapons, fluff your spells as channeling your Ki (it works really well for most Cleric spells; healing, harming, influencing, etc. are all traditional Ki techniques), and just say in-character that you're a Monk. Class names are not in-world constructs; nothing says an in-world Monk would have to have levels in Monk. O-Chul is a Fighter even though he's a Paladin in-world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) and Miko too is a Monk/Paladin.

You could also work Barbarian this way (call Rage some "serene storm" or whatever) as well as anything else. The point is, you can reach the fluff you want in any number of ways so pick the best class suited for your task, not the one with the name you want. You can call a Fighter a Samurai, but you get exactly the set of class features the class you pick offers, so pick well and call it what you want.

Or play a Monk, that's again fine. Just prepare for the fact that no matter how much work you do, you'll be weaker than your partymates particularly with those stats. But if you don't mind, I recommend:

Half-Orc/Dwarf Monk 20 (depends on your score; human for skillz, Dwarf for conz)

Str 18
Cha 7

1. Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus: UA Strike [or whatever]
6. Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack: UA Strike
9. -> Whatever

The basic idea, hit everything you can, stun whenever you can, get AoOs whenever you can, carry a reach weapon around wherever you can, always use your Unarmed Strikes on your own turn; only have tripping reach weapon for AoOs (Spiked Chin is a good option; may have something to do with Beardfist). Mite well take it earlier. Then you use your massive (lol) attack run to break faces with your massive (lol) unarmed damage. On tripped opponents. With Ability Focused Stunning Fist. Max Hide/Move Silently and just stay hidden whenever terrain allows. Obv Tumble, etc. Pick up a Tower Shield for when it's not applicable and stay in total cover 110% of the time.


You could head towards the Empty Handed Mastery from Oriental Adventures, which gives you another increase in unarmed die size (Imp. Nat. Attack is the first) making them pretty punchy. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike (PH) , Power Attack (PH) , Fists of Iron (CW) , Sunder (PH) , Eagle Claw Attack (CW) , Ki Shout (OA), out of which most are pretty bad but that'll at least fill out your feats nicely. But yeah, focus on combat maneuvers with your Strength. Just be careful with Grapple; big things have you beat by default and you only have medium BAB so grappling warriors is risky. Go for lone squishies.

[MetznTrix]

Ultimately though, the problem here is threefold:

1. Monks are comparatively the weakest class in Core already out of the box. They excel in nothing and their numbers are lower than the other Core classes'.
2. Monks are at their weakest on low levels (again, comparatively to other martial classes). Once you get some unarmed die sizes, Greater Flurry and what have you, you can become a decent beatstick. All of that is down the line though and you'd have to suffer through a lot of levels to get a minor payoff (this is mostly compared to Barbarians/Fighters, who have less scaling in Core but start out far enough ahead that you only ever play catch-up; casters are far ahead).
3. Monks need a lot of good stats to be even decent. You have the 18 and that's nice, but at the very least you'd want for the rest of the stats to contain 3 14s (preferably 16s).


You can throw books at problem #1 to make it less of an issue. The power gap will still be there but probably not as significant in a less experienced party. However, problem #2 is hard to solve with books and problem #3 will always be there no matter what you do1. Thus, even if you get all sources approved you'll have to roll with an AC 12 Monk for the time being; which you can do but if the game contains normal enemies, that's a huge risk for a melee type with low HP and no reach-based defenses. As Belkar put it in one of the OotS prequels, why spend 20 levels making your unarmed strikes as good as weapons if you could instead just wield weapons?


1 It's possible to reduce the multiple attribute dependency of the Monk but that takes a lot of sources and building including Tome of Battle, with which you have little reason for taking more than 2 Monk levels anyways.


Thus, the alternative is what we call "refluffing". What do you like about the Monk? Is it the unarmed, unarmored martial arts badassness? The silent contemplation and cryptic phrases? Or just the alluring-looking pile of mostly irrelevant class features? If it's one of the former two, you can play another class and call it a Monk. Take levels in Cleric, wield Monk weapons, fluff your spells as channeling your Ki (it works really well for most Cleric spells; healing, harming, influencing, etc. are all traditional Ki techniques), and just say in-character that you're a Monk. Class names are not in-world constructs; nothing says an in-world Monk would have to have levels in Monk. O-Chul is a Fighter even though he's a Paladin in-world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) and Miko too is a Monk/Paladin.

You could also work Barbarian this way (call Rage some "serene storm" or whatever) as well as anything else. The point is, you can reach the fluff you want in any number of ways so pick the best class suited for your task, not the one with the name you want. You can call a Fighter a Samurai, but you get exactly the set of class features the class you pick offers, so pick well and call it what you want.

Or play a Monk, that's again fine. Just prepare for the fact that no matter how much work you do, you'll be weaker than your partymates particularly with those stats. But if you don't mind, I recommend:

Half-Orc/Dwarf Monk 20 (depends on your score; human for skillz, Dwarf for conz)

Str 18
Cha 7

1. Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus: UA Strike [or whatever]
6. Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack: UA Strike
9. -> Whatever

The basic idea, hit everything you can, stun whenever you can, get AoOs whenever you can, carry a reach weapon around wherever you can, always use your Unarmed Strikes on your own turn; only have tripping reach weapon for AoOs (Spiked Chin is a good option; may have something to do with Beardfist). Mite well take it earlier. Then you use your massive (lol) attack run to break faces with your massive (lol) unarmed damage. On tripped opponents. With Ability Focused Stunning Fist. Max Hide/Move Silently and just stay hidden whenever terrain allows. Obv Tumble, etc. Pick up a Tower Shield for when it's not applicable and stay in total cover 110% of the time.


You could head towards the Empty Handed Mastery from Oriental Adventures, which gives you another increase in unarmed die size (Imp. Nat. Attack is the first) making them pretty punchy. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike (PH) , Power Attack (PH) , Fists of Iron (CW) , Sunder (PH) , Eagle Claw Attack (CW) , Ki Shout (OA), out of which most are pretty bad but that'll at least fill out your feats nicely. But yeah, focus on combat maneuvers with your Strength. Just be careful with Grapple; big things have you beat by default and you only have medium BAB so grappling warriors is risky. Go for lone squishies.


Thanks for this, I started working on a cleric build after all the advice given. However, I do have an update, I am allowed to redistribute my point scores which are a total of 77 (save you doing the math lmao), is there any better build you can now suggest for monk bearing this in mind and the previous information? Thanks again.

[Eldariel]

Monk with 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, 10 Int and 5 Cha would be much better off already. 15 AC and 10 HP, and competitive Stunning Fist DC. Still weaker than other martials but less weak by comparison. Cleric would of course go something like 18 Strength, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 18 Wis, 6 Cha instead. You can safely dump Charisma to all hell either way.

I'll answer more in-depth tomorrow.

[bean illus]

Well i don't know what the mastery level is at your table, or if prcs will be introduced later, but I'm sensing it's feasible to be mid-op at your table.
So there may be options to multiclass, which will limit some things (spell access, caster level), but could expand other things. (If your group is short on casters, you may want to go straight cleric)

A very monkish/martial cleric can be made by taking minimum wisdom, and avoiding spells with saves. You still get heals, buffs (, and stuff) that fluffs well as monk), and your physical stats get buffed.

18 16 14 - 8 14 7
If he allows this, it exceeds 32 point buy, so consider yourself lucky.

One of the only 'reasons' to multiclass cleric might be lack of feats. Fighter and monk are both options.
I like monk, which in two levels gives you great (+ 3,+ 3,+ 3) saves, improved unarmed strike, improved trip (also combat expertise), and evasion. throw some skill access in there, for tumble, jump, spot, etc.

This leaves you all your feats still open, for 'monk' stuff (imp initiative, combat reflexes).

Don't bother with extend spell unless your dm will not allow a rod of lesser extend (iirc), or he will allow persist. Check first.

Or you could just go straight human cleric20, which always works.

[MetznTrix]

Monk with 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, 10 Int and 5 Cha would be much better off already. 15 AC and 10 HP, and competitive Stunning Fist DC. Still weaker than other martials but less weak by comparison. Cleric would of course go something like 18 Strength, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 18 Wis, 6 Cha instead. You can safely dump Charisma to all hell either way.

I'll answer more in-depth tomorrow.

Okay thanks.

[MetznTrix]

Well i don't know what the mastery level is at your table, or if prcs will be introduced later, but I'm sensing it's feasible to be mid-op at your table.
So there may be options to multiclass, which will limit some things (spell access, caster level), but could expand other things. (If your group is short on casters, you may want to go straight cleric)

A very monkish/martial cleric can be made by taking minimum wisdom, and avoiding spells with saves. You still get heals, buffs (, and stuff) that fluffs well as monk), and your physical stats get buffed.

18 16 14 - 8 14 7
If he allows this, it exceeds 32 point buy, so consider yourself lucky.

One of the only 'reasons' to multiclass cleric might be lack of feats. Fighter and monk are both options.
I like monk, which in two levels gives you great (+ 3,+ 3,+ 3) saves, improved unarmed strike, improved trip (also combat expertise), and evasion. throw some skill access in there, for tumble, jump, spot, etc.

This leaves you all your feats still open, for 'monk' stuff (imp initiative, combat reflexes).

Don't bother with extend spell unless your dm will not allow a rod of lesser extend (iirc), or he will allow persist. Check first.

Or you could just go straight human cleric20, which always works.

Okay wicked. I didn't really know about fluffing at all till all of this so yeah will defo consider it now. Gonna have to do some reading haha, thanks. But yeah the > 32 point buy should be fine.

[bean illus]

*if you consider the multi-class cleric monk route, then maybe something like this.

18 14 12 - 13 14 6 - human

1. Monk1: Exotic weapon proficiencie -chain, spiked(h), Combat expertise(1), Improved grapple(m), Improved unarmed strike 1d6(m), FoB -2/-2
2. Cleric1: Strength domain, Travel domain
3. Monk2: Improved Trip(3), Combat reflexes(m)
4. Cleric2+
6. Cleric4: Improved Disarm
9. Cleric7: Divine Power, open feat
10+. (If you play this far you'll know what you want)

This build is just for fun, if you want a monk ... but more. Of course there are bunches of ways to do it, but this can (by avoiding caster level checks) be very 'monkish'.

[Eldariel]

Okay so, I suggest Int 13, because you have an odd ability score and that opens up Improved Trip, which is an excellent feat for a fighting Cleric, particularly with 18 starting Strength and no real conflicting feats to speak of. This is where I got the spread 18/10/12/13/18/6 from. It loses no casting power (indeed, all your level-up point should go to Wisdom, your spells will see to your martial prowess), while also coming in as a potent melee type early on.

Domain choice is a bit tricky:
Strength has Enlarge Person and a decent one-shot power, but it offers little of interest higher up.

One good option is taking the Magic-domain and just using Scrolls of Enlarge Person instead. They are cheap and if the party has a Wizard, you can cooperate with them to craft those at 12.5gp a pop. Else you can buy them at 25gp each. Magic domain also contains Mage Armor, which is a nice spell to have when you get Monk's Belt. Call the scrolls Sutras or whatever.

Trickery would amp up the stealth aspect of a Monk. It gives you Hide as a class skill, Disguise Self on level 1, Invisibility on level 2 (call it blending or whatever, focusing you Ki to bend light around yourself) and Mislead on level 5. It also contains powerful offensive mental effect in Confusion.

War is mostly interesting for the granted power, weapon proficiency and weapon focus. None of the Core deities offering it are that interesting, but you are probably not going to worship a deity as a Monk anyways; Monks are more about worshipping the ideal of perfect self, the Void, etc. Fitting good weapons would include Spiked Chain, Guisarme and company. If your GM allows you to gain one weapon with reach and tripping quality, this domain becomes a good choice. Otherwise, don't bother.

Travel replicates Freedom of Movement very early and offers some game changing mobility options (Fly, Teleport) down the line, though Clerics already have Air Walk and Plane Shift so they aren't entirely hopeless in that regard. Not necessary but nice to have.

Luck offers a great granted power: natural 1 on a save vs. death kills almost anyone, Luck allows you to reroll that. Same with that critical hit confirmation roll vs. a big bad, or any other cannot.fail roll. The spells aren't all that but Mislead and Moment of Prescience are pretty nice higher up.

Human Cleric 1
18/10/12/13/18/6 (or 4 Charisma, 14 Constitution or 12 Dexterity)

Domains: Pick two out of Strength, War, Trickery, Travel, Luck, Magic. I'd go Magic, Trickery at the present.

1. Combat Expertise
B. Improved Trip
3. Your choice of:

Improved Unarmed Strike (for channelling spells while punching people in the face)

Craft Wondrous Items craft a Monk's Belt when you reach 6500 gold. This allows not wearing armor (but you could still use Mage Armor, another reason Magic-domain is nice). Note that the item grants Improved Unarmed Strike too so if you go this route, you don't need to take that feat.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain. For area control, tripping, etc. A fairly Monky weapon too.


Down the line I recommend Extend Spell for all day buffs and Quicken Spell for Quickening Divine Favor on level 9 (+3 to hit and damage that stacks with everything is really nice for a swift action). Power Attack is also a good pick-up as is Combat Reflexes if you get some Dex enhancements (not a bad idea at all). Improved Initiative is always good too.