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luagha
2019-02-04, 09:08 AM
I was just glancing through to strip #1000 and I saw that "If a god no longer has a cleric present before the tiebreaker finished, would their vote be nullified?"
So maybe the whole voting thing is now over - and the cleanup is just the cleanup. Can't be having a load of vampires running about the place.

Then again, it's not like Wrecan was a hundred percent sure.

Keltest
2019-02-04, 09:11 AM
I mean, maybe the clerics all decided to break the rules and murder each other at the godsmoot, but that seems unlikely. Barring that though, no, all the gods still have clerics. Greg left behind a minion he nominally promoted before he left.

Kish
2019-02-04, 09:16 AM
I was just glancing through to strip #1000 and I saw that "If a god no longer has a cleric present before the tiebreaker finished, would their vote be nullified?"
So maybe the whole voting thing is now over - and the cleanup is just the cleanup. Can't be having a load of vampires running about the place.

Then again, it's not like Wrecan was a hundred percent sure.
You seem to have an unstated assumption here somewhere.

Lord Torath
2019-02-04, 09:23 AM
They are not done with the vote. If they were Veldrina would have Sent to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html), telling him so.

CriticalFailure
2019-02-04, 09:23 AM
I suppose some of the vampires there who aren’t the priest/guard could attempt to take out one of the other no priest?

Morquard
2019-02-04, 10:03 AM
I suppose some of the vampires there who aren’t the priest/guard could attempt to take out one of the other no priest?

Which ones? They're all dead.

luagha
2019-02-04, 10:25 AM
They are not done with the vote. If they were Veldrina would have Sent to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html), telling him so.

Good enough! Thanks.

Peelee
2019-02-04, 10:43 AM
Good enough! Thanks.

Yet we can do better.

Vamp Durkon explicitly abandoned the High Priest titled and left a high priest at the moot. Im guessing you forgot that part, but Hel still very much has a representative at the moot

Also, the vampires' entire plan is based around rigging the vote, and the only reason the Order followed them there is to stop that. If it were just vampires running around, sure, that bad and people will likely die, but the Order is trying to stop Xykon and for all they know he's only minutes away from the Gate.

Xianthe
2019-02-04, 02:22 PM
Is the new High Priestess of Hel high enough level to cast "Summon Proxy"? Or does it not matter because Hel has already cast her vote?

Peelee
2019-02-04, 02:26 PM
Is the new High Priestess of Hel high enough level to cast "Summon Proxy"? Or does it not matter because Hel has already cast her vote?

I'm going to assume she is, solely by virtue of "why not, it's not like there'll ever be word either way and thiat removed any chance of people calling it a possible plot hole." So I declare she is the exact minimum level to cast Summon Proxy.

Synesthesy
2019-02-04, 02:42 PM
But the actual high priest of Hel was a Greg's spawn.... Now she's free. She can reject Hel's plan, if she wants to, and embrace another (evil) God, maybe one that voted no. Or rocks again. Or something else.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 02:44 PM
But the actual high priest of Hel was a Greg's spawn.... Now she's free. She can reject Hel's plan, if she wants to, and embrace another (evil) God, maybe one that voted no. Or rocks again. Or something else.

I'm going to need a big ol' [citation needed] on any of the spellcasters on Team Hel having been under Durkon*'s thrall.

Kish
2019-02-04, 02:52 PM
I'm going to need a big ol' [citation needed] on any of the spellcasters on Team Hel having been under Durkon*'s thrall.
"Now she's free" does not actually require "previously she wasn't free." She is unambiguously not Greg's mind-slave now, because there's no Greg to have mind-slaves now.

Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 02:57 PM
"Now she's free" does not actually require "previously she wasn't free." She is unambiguously not Greg's mind-slave now, because there's no Greg to have mind-slaves now.

Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."

We've seen how a thrall behaves, they acted nothing like that.

Aquillion
2019-02-04, 02:58 PM
"Now she's free" does not actually require "previously she wasn't free." She is unambiguously not Greg's mind-slave now, because there's no Greg to have mind-slaves now.

Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."
When Greg was a mind-slave, he was all servile "YES MASTER" and pretty mindless. He wasn't acting very intelligently and didn't seem capable of much thinking.

Beyond that, the other vampires are all spirits created by Hel. Greg has no reason not to trust them.

Kish
2019-02-04, 03:07 PM
Beyond that, the other vampires are all spirits created by Hel. Greg has no reason not to trust them.
I'm trying to see a way this doesn't amount to "vampires do not actually have free will" and failing.

pendell
2019-02-04, 03:16 PM
I'm sure the vote is still in process. This is one of my complaints about the strip; The OOTS are the heroes. This means no one else has the ability to solve any problems, even if they are the most powerful clerics on the planet.

That said, it would be a hilarious anticlimax if the now-free-willed vampires decided they weren't interested in mind-controlling the council into ending the world, and simply departed to go be evil somewhere else. But I somehow don't think this is likely. It appears to me that vampires need some time to fall in love with the prime material world and decide to stick around there; these are all fresh from Hel's halls. Less than a year old , I don't think they've developed the ability to question the commands of their deity, assuming they want to in the first place.

...

But then, we don't know that the vampires aren't already free-willed. For all we know, Greg released them shortly after they rose.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hroşila
2019-02-04, 03:18 PM
It doesn't help that "spawn" and "mind-controlled" seem to have been tossed into the discussion at the same time.

D.One
2019-02-04, 03:24 PM
I'm sure the vote is still in process. This is one of my complaints about the strip; The OOTS are the heroes. This means no one else has the ability to solve any problems, even if they are the most powerful clerics on the planet.

That said, it would be a hilarious anticlimax if the now-free-willed vampires decided they weren't interested in mind-controlling the council into ending the world, and simply departed to go be evil somewhere else. But I somehow don't think this is likely. It appears to me that vampires need some time to fall in love with the prime material world and decide to stick around there; these are all fresh from Hel's halls. Less than a year old , I don't think they've developed the ability to question the commands of their deity, assuming they want to in the first place.


In addition to that, most, if not all of Greg's followers who are still active are clerics, adding another layer of loyalty to Hel that a mere vampire warrior might not have

Rrmcklin
2019-02-04, 03:26 PM
I'm struggling to see what the actual benefit of "this plot has already been resolved, and now the Order is just on clean up" is supposed to be.

Because that's basically what this line of thinking is trying to say, and it's very strange.

Knaight
2019-02-04, 03:38 PM
I'm trying to see a way this doesn't amount to "vampires do not actually have free will" and failing.

It's a safe assumption that the people sent to you as reinforcements are on your side, especially when the one sending said reinforcements is a literal god. The vampire spirits are clearly different people than the hosts, every last one of them was sent by Hel, and this involves a loyal servant assuming that the other servants are also loyal.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 03:44 PM
It's a safe assumption that the people sent to you as reinforcements are on your side, especially when the one sending said reinforcements is a literal god. The vampire spirits are clearly different people than the hosts, every last one of them was sent by Hel, and this involves a loyal servant assuming that the other servants are also loyal.

The vampires did not exist before their rspective host's death, they have no prior personnality or memory and have free-will. Hel had no say in their personnality: it forms around the host's emotionnal nadir. All of them were Clerics though and had a priori no attachment to anyone alive so when a magical goddess offers them magical powers (plus most likely literal power in the next world) if they follow her plan, it isn't surprising that they all agreed. Especially since the alternative would most likely have been death.

Rrmcklin
2019-02-04, 03:57 PM
It's a safe assumption that the people sent to you as reinforcements are on your side, especially when the one sending said reinforcements is a literal god. The vampire spirits are clearly different people than the hosts, every last one of them was sent by Hel, and this involves a loyal servant assuming that the other servants are also loyal.

The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 04:06 PM
The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

What reasons would they have to? Their most senior members are three days old (discoutning Durkon* and his whopping six) they have had no time to absorb anything positive from their host. They were/are motivated by nothing but spite/anger/hatred/selfishness at this point. They have no alliance with anyone but the other vampires (most likely, Id oubt any of their former friends would want to associate with a vampire), why would they throw away this one?

pendell
2019-02-04, 04:07 PM
The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

This world isn't their home; Hel's domain is. Presumably they expect to return home after a short stint in this world (as a modern soldier might view a posting to Kandahar) and their actions here will mean greater reward when they get back. Failing to go along means the enmity of Hel at best; at worst it means the destruction of this world and Hel's world as well by the Snarl.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hroşila
2019-02-04, 04:07 PM
The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.
It would probably be odder if they had unlived long enough to develop their own selfish anything. It would probably take a particularly contrarian vampire to feel strongly about the survival of the world at that point.

Grey_Wolf_c
2019-02-04, 04:11 PM
I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

I'm not sure how it is odd. Hel explicitly gives them certain pieces of information when she sends them forth, like the location of the godsmoot. Presumably, some kind of sketch of the plan is involved, including (crucially) that they can use portal or the like to escape before the end of the world, ride out the interorbis period at Hel's place, and then become high priests of the Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world. As job offers go, it sure beats "taking my chance I'll find a new god and that Hel won't win". Just because one choice is obvious versus all others that doesn't mean they didn't freely chose it.

Grey Wolf

Rrmcklin
2019-02-04, 05:43 PM
This world isn't their home; Hel's domain is. Presumably they expect to return home after a short stint in this world (as a modern soldier might view a posting to Kandahar) and their actions here will mean greater reward when they get back. Failing to go along means the enmity of Hel at best; at worst it means the destruction of this world and Hel's world as well by the Snarl.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't know why you expect that though. Nothing indicates vampires in this world have a particular attachment to the domain they were created, or have to have allegiance to the god that created them. Because again, free-will.


It would probably be odder if they had unlived long enough to develop their own selfish anything. It would probably take a particularly contrarian vampire to feel strongly about the survival of the world at that point.

I'm just going off of what we've been told. Greg mentions that if not for Durkon's repressed interests, another vampire spirit would have had the option and possibly mind to tell Hel to screw herself.


I'm not sure how it is odd. Hel explicitly gives them certain pieces of information when she sends them forth, like the location of the godsmoot. Presumably, some kind of sketch of the plan is involved, including (crucially) that they can use portal or the like to escape before the end of the world, ride out the interorbis period at Hel's place, and then become high priests of the Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world. As job offers go, it sure beats "taking my chance I'll find a new god and that Hel won't win". Just because one choice is obvious versus all others that doesn't mean they didn't freely chose it.

Grey Wolf

Those are not assumptions I see a reason to make. To be clear, I don't actually have a problem with all the vampires going along with this, but I do understand why someone would find it at least a bit strange. I don't consider it a plothole or anything.

Kish
2019-02-04, 05:59 PM
I, meanwhile, am taking the position that Greg almost certainly kept as many as thralls as he could (just somewhat more independent thralls than he was to Malack), simply because I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't--and the counterargument to this appears to be: Because they are vampires, he could expect them to act unthinkingly obedient whether they were still his thralls or not. Well, no. That way lies "Redcloak was speaking for Rich about what the undead are, even when Rich explicitly said the opposite," and I don't want to wind up there.

Vampirized former members of the Creed of Stone would know, better than most people in the OotS world, that they don't actually need a god to function as clerics in the OotS setting.

It could be that Greg could be certain that no vampires he'd created would be old enough to think the situation through enough to conclude, "Hey, Hel sucks, I'm going to convert to a vampire cleric of the concept of stone" until today is over, but...how certain? Even if the risk is minuscule, there's no reason for Greg to take any risk at all; he manifestly doesn't have even Malack's minimal concern about impinging on others' wills.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 06:08 PM
I, meanwhile, am taking the position that Greg almost certainly kept as many as thralls as he could (just somewhat more independent thralls than he was to Malack), simply because I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't--[and the counterargument to this appears to be: Because they are vampires, he could expect them to act unthinkingly obedient whether they were still his thralls or not. Well, no. That way lies "Redcloak was speaking for Rich about what the undead are, even when Rich explicitly said the opposite," and I don't want to wind up there.

Vampirized former members of the Creed of Stone would know, better than most people in the OotS world, that they don't actually need a god to function as clerics in the OotS setting.

It could be that Greg could be certain that no vampires he'd created would be old enough to think the situation through enough to conclude, "Hey, Hel sucks, I'm going to convert to a vampire cleric of the concept of stone" until today is over, but...how certain? Even if the risk is minuscule, there's no reason for Greg to take any risk at all; he manifestly doesn't have even Malack's minimal concern about impinging on others' wills.

Fee-will is the price of autonomy, Thrall!Durkon could not have carried out the Ex-Exarch's missions onboard The Mechane or whatever he is doing with the Council or Brother Fangstone's ambush.
Seriously, what were the odds the vampires would reject Hel for no reason and endanger themselves? And why do you feel this is a better argument than "the spellcasting vampires act autonomous unlike the thrall seen in comic"?

Snails
2019-02-04, 06:28 PM
I'm not sure how it is odd. Hel explicitly gives them certain pieces of information when she sends them forth, like the location of the godsmoot. Presumably, some kind of sketch of the plan is involved, including (crucially) that they can use portal or the like to escape before the end of the world, ride out the interorbis period at Hel's place, and then become high priests of the Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world. As job offers go, it sure beats "taking my chance I'll find a new god and that Hel won't win". Just because one choice is obvious versus all others that doesn't mean they didn't freely chose it.

I can easily imagining Greg or one of the other vamps eschewing Hel's plans...in the long term. But they are not destined to get a long term that the Readers will ever see, so their short term decision will rule their destinies.

Hel is offering them a pretty sweet deal for little effort. They have a good chance to physically survive by means of Plane Shift or similar. And even if they are physically killed, they might do pretty well as spirits who served the Queen well in the critical hour, haunting her unhallowed royal halls. It sounds like a sure thing, certainly to naifs who were literally born yesterday.

If they were given a decade to unlive and find themselves, yes, some of them would probably find that their burning anger at knuckling under to authority and honor during life leads them away from Hel's plans. If. We, Readers, are not going to find out.

Ruck
2019-02-04, 06:35 PM
This world isn't their home; Hel's domain is. Presumably they expect to return home after a short stint in this world (as a modern soldier might view a posting to Kandahar) and their actions here will mean greater reward when they get back. Failing to go along means the enmity of Hel at best; at worst it means the destruction of this world and Hel's world as well by the Snarl.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


I don't know why you expect that though. Nothing indicates vampires in this world have a particular attachment to the domain they were created, or have to have allegiance to the god that created them. Because again, free-will.

To back up Brian P.'s point, it's not so much about loyalty as self-interest: Successfully carrying out Hel's orders gets them rewarded with whatever Hel will give her trusted servants in the next world. Defying them will leave them as vampire clerics with no patron deity and surrounded by a lot of high-level clerics who will probably try to kill them as soon as the godsmoot officially ends.

Rrmcklin
2019-02-04, 06:37 PM
To back up Brian P.'s point, it's not so much about loyalty as self-interest: Successfully carrying out Hel's orders gets them rewarded with whatever Hel will give her trusted servants in the next world. Defying them will leave them as vampire clerics with no patron deity and surrounded by a lot of high-level clerics who will probably try to kill them as soon as the godsmoot officially ends.

That's fine too, then.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 06:41 PM
To back up Brian P.'s point, it's not so much about loyalty as self-interest: Successfully carrying out Hel's orders gets them rewarded with whatever Hel will give her trusted servants in the next world. Defying them will leave them as vampire clerics with no patron deity and surrounded by a lot of high-level clerics who will probably try to kill them as soon as the godsmoot officially ends.

Or even shorter than that.

Durkon*: So are you with us?

Random Vamp: All things considered, I think I'm going to sit that one out.

Durkon*: Suit yourself. Flame Strike.

Jasdoif
2019-02-04, 07:06 PM
But the actual high priest of Hel was a Greg's spawn.... Now she's free. She can reject Hel's plan, if she wants to, and embrace another (evil) God, maybe one that voted no. Or rocks again. Or something else.Thrall or not....With a "No Backsies" rule (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) in place, I don't think Hel's vote can be changed any more easily than Heimdall's can.

Plus, I'm not sure it'd even matter. The Godsmoot is paused (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) until the clans are assembled and polled; even if the main vote can be altered at this point to obviate the tiebreaker, the vote couldn't be declared "done" until the Godsmoot resumes at that time.

hroşila
2019-02-04, 07:15 PM
We're all doing a great job of illustrating why vampire clerics in this scenario would in all likelihood choose to stick with Hel out of their own free will, but I feel we're not really addressing Kish's point about why Vamp Durkon would allow them that choice in the first place. There's no mechanical downside to keeping them controlled, is there?

It all boils down to how significant you think the difference in temperament is, compared to Newly-Raised Durkon. Was that just flavour, and/or a reflection of the vampire sire rather than of the controlled vampire? Then Durkon's vampires might well have been mind-controlled too. Was the difference too great? Then those vampires were probably free from the start and Durkon was simply confident in the choice he was presenting them - and he was proven right.

The core issue can't be resolved, so it's a matter of personal preference really.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 07:27 PM
The core issue can't be resolved, so it's a matter of personal preference really.

Until we see the last two members of the Bleed of the Stone. If they've changed then they were thralls, if they haven't then they weren't.

Ruck
2019-02-04, 07:43 PM
Or even shorter than that.

Durkon*: So are you with us?

Random Vamp: All things considered, I think I'm going to sit that one out.

Durkon*: Suit yourself. Flame Strike.

Well, I thought the question had to do with after Durkon* was already gone, so this wouldn't really be an option.

Fyraltari
2019-02-04, 07:59 PM
Well, I thought the question had to do with after Durkon* was already gone, so this wouldn't really be an option.

After Durkon*'s death the only one who has to worry about being attacked once the Godsmoot is over the High Priestess who cannot act right now. Plus the truce probably extends to the voyage home (it wouldn't make much sense if it didn't and at least some High Priests travelled together).

Right now there is a chance the Exaargh could decide to drop the whole thing and leave but that's unlikley given his desire to be follower.

Kish
2019-02-04, 08:13 PM
And why do you feel this is a better argument than "the spellcasting vampires act autonomous unlike the thrall seen in comic"?
Because it's an argument at all.

Sure, Gontor and Cindy and the others act more like villainous henchmen and henchwomen while Greg acted like a dull-witted, vicious child.

Sure, there's a difference there.

Saying that that difference consists of "this is a thrall, these are not," not, "this is Malack's thrall which he wanted to pretend was his little brother, these are Greg's thralls which he created to help with a villainous scheme"? I call that an assumption, on the level of seeing a blond man first and then asking why someone else is insisting that those strange brown-haired creatures can be men when clearly they can't, not an argument.

And as hroşila pointed out, none of this answers the question: Why? Why would Greg free his thralls? They're not autonomous; every time we see them they're obeying his orders to the letter. He's not consulting them, he's not even letting one of them explain that she saw two clerics, not one. And a scenario that might explain why a freed thrall would be more likely to just mistform quietly away when Greg's back is turned rather than taunt Greg with failure to comply is, also, an answer to a different question nobody asked.

Knaight
2019-02-05, 07:18 AM
I, meanwhile, am taking the position that Greg almost certainly kept as many as thralls as he could (just somewhat more independent thralls than he was to Malack), simply because I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't--and the counterargument to this appears to be: Because they are vampires, he could expect them to act unthinkingly obedient whether they were still his thralls or not. Well, no. That way lies "Redcloak was speaking for Rich about what the undead are, even when Rich explicitly said the opposite," and I don't want to wind up there.

Them being vampires is relevant only inasmuch as that lets Hel send a possessing spirit over - and those possessing spirits are reinforcements from the same side. That doesn't require a lack of free will at all; people are routinely reinforcements from the same side and it's usually safe to assume that those reinforcements are in fact going to work with you. Greg gets allies either way, one of which involves mind controlled allies, the other of which involves significantly stronger allies who take orders because they're part of a hierarchy.

Fyraltari
2019-02-05, 07:34 AM
Because it's an argument at all.

Sure, Gontor and Cindy and the others act more like villainous henchmen and henchwomen while Greg acted like a dull-witted, vicious child.

Sure, there's a difference there.

Saying that that difference consists of "this is a thrall, these are not," not, "this is Malack's thrall which he wanted to pretend was his little brother, these are Greg's thralls which he created to help with a villainous scheme"? I call that an assumption, on the level of seeing a blond man first and then asking why someone else is insisting that those strange brown-haired creatures can be men when clearly they can't, not an argument. He's not consulting them, he's not even letting one of them explain that she saw two clerics, not one.

And assuming the vampire parent can control the level of intelligence their thrall has is also an assumption. I agree that if you dismiss the behaviour of the one thrall we see to assume that other thralls could act differently then there's no reason forthe vampire to not use your version of thralldom. Except that it is not one that is supported by the comic.


And as hroşila pointed out, none of this answers the question: Why? Why would Greg free his thralls? They're not autonomous; every time we see them they're obeying his orders to the letter.
Yes tthey are. the Ex-exarch consciously disobeyed an order by drinking Little Whisker's blood because he found a loophole and laughed to himself about it. Brother Fangstone tried to Dominate Minrah and tempt her to go fight demons with them without Durkon's input. The High Priestess upon being promoted simply stated "you know what to do my brothers and sisters". Compare this to Durkon* not understanding what the pyramid having blown up means (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html). The one thrall we have seen needed constant micromanagement, the vampire Clerics did not. Yes he ordered them around, but he also trusted them with carrying his orders out without him being around at every step. That's autonomy. Also yes I agree that the melee fighters vampires are most likely thralls since their behaviour matches Thrall!Durkon more for what little screen time they had ("she burned us with the bad light"), but the idea that the vampires who talk back to Durkon* would be thralls seems really poorly supported even with the caveat of "a master ccan decied what his trhalls are like" why would he want that?


And a scenario that might explain why a freed thrall would be more likely to just mistform quietly away when Greg's back is turned rather than taunt Greg with failure to comply is, also, an answer to a different question nobody asked.
Granted.

mjasghar
2019-02-05, 08:36 AM
It doesn't help that "spawn" and "mind-controlled" seem to have been tossed into the discussion at the same time.
The exact relationship seems to vary between vampires and maybe even creating deity
This has been touched on before - Greg was created by a Nergal vampire (who seems to be very Lawful in his LE, and very hierarchical) yet was given a Hel spirit. Hel seems to be CE or NE and that seems to be reflected in her vampires generally, that they were more evil than lawful.
I would also point out the no name episode which seems to show thraldom

Peelee
2019-02-05, 08:41 AM
The exact relationship seems to vary between vampires and maybe even creating deity
This has been touched on before - Greg was created by a Nergal vampire (who seems to be very Lawful in his LE, and very hierarchical) yet was given a Hel spirit. Hel seems to be CE or NE and that seems to be reflected in her vampires generally, that they were more evil than lawful.

Paging Jaxzan Proditor, Jaxzan Proditor please come to the thread.

mjasghar
2019-02-05, 08:56 AM
?
I do remember bringing up that point with regards to a general conversation about dwarves and wether a dwarf can choose a non northern pantheon to get out of the bet
Of course since Greg was the only example we had and there was the issue of special plot circumstances we can’t be sure - despite some comments by the Giant which imho seem to suggest he isn’t bothered about thinking of dwarves outside of the North

D.One
2019-02-05, 11:59 AM
Maybe one important question here is:

What happens to the vampire spirit when they are destroyed? We see that the host's soul proceeds to the appropriate afterlife, but what about the negative energy spirit?

If it just ceases to exist, dispersing the negative energy, it wouldn't be a surprise for them to tell Hel to go to herself.

OTOH, if it functions as a different soul and goes to the corresponding afterlife (and for most of them that would be Hel), they would probably be less inclined to betray her.

Fyraltari
2019-02-05, 12:07 PM
OTOH, if it functions as a different soul and goes to the corresponding afterlife (and for most of them that would be Hel), they would probably be less inclined to betray her.

That would mean there is a Durkon stuck in the loving care of Hel and I doubt Rich would go this way. So I am confortable assuming cessation of existence for the vampire spirit.

Kish
2019-02-05, 12:23 PM
Them being vampires is relevant only inasmuch as that lets Hel send a possessing spirit over - and those possessing spirits are reinforcements from the same side. That doesn't require a lack of free will at all; people are routinely reinforcements from the same side and it's usually safe to assume that those reinforcements are in fact going to work with you. Greg gets allies either way, one of which involves mind controlled allies, the other of which involves significantly stronger allies who take orders because they're part of a hierarchy.
Yes, if you assume that vampires can start off as experienced followers of Hel who have already made moral choices, that would be one way to justify Greg not keeping his creations as thralls, but I'm not seeing how Greg's demise works that way.

RaveDave92084
2019-02-05, 12:45 PM
A couple of things to think about:
1. Durkon* was created out of a spirit from Hel by a priest of Nergal (Malak)
1.1 I therefore can accept that ALL dwarf vampires were created via spirits from Hel
1.2 It is likely that the non-dwarf vampires Durkon* created were NOT created via spirits from Hel, but rather from via governing diety/force for thier creature type
2. The dwarf vampires created would be VERY loyal to Hel as their "creator", at least initially
3. The non-dwarf vampires may or may not be loyal, but see "The Plan" as in their best interest at this time
4. Possible that newly created vampires are loyal to their "father", like chicks imprinted by their mother hen

Since Durkon* was a newly created spirit that didn't know much, I am assuming that all the rest were similar.

As young children spirits, these vampires may be forming plans of rebellion or otherwise not going along with "The Plan" but are too young emotionally and mentally to carry these out. Over time, as their personalities develop, we may have seen greater acts of rebellion and subversion.

This, to me, means that, for the most part, the vampires were free-willed; but obeying the letter/spirit of their instructions.

An example:
Brother Sandstone restrained itself from ripping Minrah's face off because it had been told not to. In this I see free-willed compliance because it used the phrase "it was very difficult to keep myself from biting your face off," Fourth Panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html).

Jasdoif
2019-02-05, 01:00 PM
Yes, if you assume that vampires can start off as experienced followers of Hel who have already made moral choices, that would be one way to justify Greg not keeping his creations as thralls, but I'm not seeing how Greg's demise works that way.It's quite the opposite (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056); HPoH didn't exist before Durkon was vampirized.

D.One
2019-02-05, 01:01 PM
A couple of things to think about:
1. Durkon* was created out of a spirit from Hel by a priest of Nergal (Malak)
1.1 I therefore can accept that ALL dwarf vampires were created via spirits from Hel
1.2 It is likely that the non-dwarf vampires Durkon* created were NOT created via spirits from Hel, but rather from via governing diety/force for thier creature type
2. The dwarf vampires created would be VERY loyal to Hel as their "creator", at least initially
3. The non-dwarf vampires may or may not be loyal, but see "The Plan" as in their best interest at this time
4. Possible that newly created vampires are loyal to their "father", like chicks imprinted by their mother hen

Since Durkon* was a newly created spirit that didn't know much, I am assuming that all the rest were similar.

As young children spirits, these vampires may be forming plans of rebellion or otherwise not going along with "The Plan" but are too young emotionally and mentally to carry these out. Over time, as their personalities develop, we may have seen greater acts of rebellion and subversion.

This, to me, means that, for the most part, the vampires were free-willed; but obeying the letter/spirit of their instructions.

An example:
Brother Sandstone restrained itself from ripping Minrah's face off because it had been told not to. In this I see free-willed compliance because it used the phrase "it was very difficult to keep myself from biting your face off," Fourth Panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html).

For all that has been said in the comics, dwarven vampires' spirits are created by Hel because she has default dominion over dwarves in this world. Other races don't appear to have a "default god". That said, the non-dwarf vampires sired by Greg might fall into three situations:

1) They are northerners, and their vampire spirits were also created by Hel because she is the goddess of death and undeads are under her portfolio;

2) They are northerners, and their vampire spirits were created by another appropriate death-related northern god, because Hel is limited to acting upon dwarven souls;

3) Some of them are southerners/westerners who came from their lands, and their vampire spirits were created by the appropriate death-related god from their land of origin.

Jasdoif
2019-02-05, 01:06 PM
1) They are northerners, and their vampire spirits were also created by Hel because she is the goddess of death and undeads are under her portfolioThat one (as opposed to #2).


She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires.

Joerg
2019-02-05, 01:08 PM
And as hroşila pointed out, none of this answers the question: Why? Why would Greg free his thralls?
Can he keep them all? There are limits, "twice his own HD", but I'm not sure whether that refers to the HD sum or the number of spawn, and also not sure if the limit also counts for "full" vampires.

D.One
2019-02-05, 01:13 PM
That one (as opposed to #2).



Thank you, Wise Banana. May your endless knowledge bless us all. :smallsmile:

Knaight
2019-02-05, 01:15 PM
Yes, if you assume that vampires can start off as experienced followers of Hel who have already made moral choices, that would be one way to justify Greg not keeping his creations as thralls, but I'm not seeing how Greg's demise works that way.

The moment Malack died and Greg became a free vampire we saw a spirit of Hel sent over, already interested in advancing her goals but clearly an independent person. Vampire-as-possessor-spirit is pretty firmly established here, with Greg and Ponchula both pretty explicitly saying that. Sure, which god gets to send them is up for debate but when the northern goddesses high cleric vampirized northerners in the north there's a pretty safe assumption to make. Add in the staff explicitly speeding up the vampirization process and Greg studying from it and there's a preponderance of evidence pointing at the actual vampires hypothesis.

Fyraltari
2019-02-05, 01:22 PM
That one (as opposed to #2).



The High Priestess had blue hair and golden skin in life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) so she might be a Southerner.

EDIT

The moment Malack died and Greg became a free vampire we saw a spirit of Hel sent over, already interested in advancing her goals but clearly an independent person. Vampire-as-possessor-spirit is pretty firmly established here, with Greg and Ponchula both pretty explicitly saying that. Sure, which god gets to send them is up for debate but when the northern goddesses high cleric vampirized northerners in the north there's a pretty safe assumption to make. Add in the staff explicitly speeding up the vampirization process and Greg studying from it and there's a preponderance of evidence pointing at the actual vampires hypothesis.
Durkon* was sent into durkon's body when Durkon died not when Malack died. The thrall was the same vampire.
We all agree that the vampire are possessors spirits, but what you seem to miss is that they are created when their hosts die and do not have prior experiences. That's why Durkon* says that a vampire tailor-made for another dwarf may have refused Hel's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) and that's why Durkon's plan worked.

Keltest
2019-02-05, 01:23 PM
The High Priestess had blue hair in life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) so she might be a Southerner.

That looks grey to me.

Kish
2019-02-05, 01:28 PM
Can he keep them all? There are limits, "twice his own HD", but I'm not sure whether that refers to the HD sum or the number of spawn, and also not sure if the limit also counts for "full" vampires.
He can have an effectively unlimited number under his control, since he can control his thralls' thralls. Though that could cost him if the intermediate links are destroyed--but only from the starting premise "a non-thrall will not continue to support the plan," which means he needs to keep as many as possible enthralled.

The moment Malack died and Greg became a free vampire we saw a spirit of Hel sent over, already interested in advancing her goals but clearly an independent person. Vampire-as-possessor-spirit is pretty firmly established here, with Greg and Ponchula both pretty explicitly saying that.
For all the "they were reinforcements who were already existent and established as loyal to Hel before they were vampires" you're trying to load onto "a vampire is a malign intelligence that imprisons the body's original soul," tosh.

And I wonder how you wrap your mind around Greg's destruction at all; apparently in the version of the comic you're reading, Greg was more than a week old, had an existence independent from Durkon, and has no reason to be overwhelmed by Durkon's memories.

Fyraltari
2019-02-05, 01:31 PM
That looks grey to me.

I'd say it's a greyish shade of blue.

D.One
2019-02-05, 02:14 PM
I'd say it's a greyish shade of blue.

Greyish blue... bluish grey... Maybe she's from somewhere in the mountains beetween Southern and Northern lands...

hroşila
2019-02-05, 03:09 PM
I'd say it's a greyish shade of blue.
Totes greyish blue to me and also her skin tone seems to match that of the Azurites.

pendell
2019-02-05, 05:40 PM
It sounds like a sure thing, certainly to naifs who were literally born yesterday.


This raises an interesting question ; do vampires grow and learn? They're dead, after all. A key point of dead things is that they don't , as a rule, grow and evolve. So a dead creature 1 month into its existence would not be much different from one thousands of years old. That's one of the horrors of undeath; you're not gaining new life. You're simply reliving , going around in the same groove over and over again, powerless to change into anything else.

Do vampires have any growth or personality change, save through absorbing memories from their hosts? That would allow them to imitate the original host perfectly, but it wouldn't allow them to ever diverge or grow past what their original host was.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Peelee
2019-02-05, 05:42 PM
This raises an interesting question ; do vampires grow and learn? They're dead, after all. A key point of dead things is that they don't , as a rule, grow and evolve.

Fortunately for them, they're not dead. They're undead. They buck the rules that apply to the dead.

Borris
2019-02-05, 05:44 PM
Greyish blue... bluish grey... Maybe she's from somewhere in the mountains beetween Southern and Northern lands...

Would that make her from Somewhere?

Fyraltari
2019-02-05, 05:50 PM
This raises an interesting question ; do vampires grow and learn? They're dead, after all. A key point of dead things is that they don't , as a rule, grow and evolve. So a dead creature 1 month into its existence would not be much different from one thousands of years old. That's one of the horrors of undeath; you're not gaining new life. You're simply reliving , going around in the same groove over and over again, powerless to change into anything else.

Do vampires have any growth or personality change, save through absorbing memories from their hosts? That would allow them to imitate the original host perfectly, but it wouldn't allow them to ever diverge or grow past what their original host was.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They can clearly grow from absorbing their host's memories, and they almos never end like Durkon* so their own experience as a vampire can counter the host's so they most likely can grow as themselves.

Knaight
2019-02-05, 05:59 PM
For all the "they were reinforcements who were already existent and established as loyal to Hel before they were vampires" you're trying to load onto "a vampire is a malign intelligence that imprisons the body's original soul," tosh.

And I wonder how you wrap your mind around Greg's destruction at all; apparently in the version of the comic you're reading, Greg was more than a week old, had an existence independent from Durkon, and has no reason to be overwhelmed by Durkon's memories.

They clearly have a distinct personality. Durkon and Greg are two different beings, Greg's destruction only even makes sense in that context (which was portrayed as potentially very temporary anyways, so "destruction" is a strong term). The age here is immaterial anyways, the spirits being new and created with instincts and a missions still makes them potential reinforcements - especially from the perspective of one of them.

Aquillion
2019-02-05, 07:06 PM
They can clearly grow from absorbing their host's memories, and they almos never end like Durkon* so their own experience as a vampire can counter the host's so they most likely can grow as themselves.
Yes, in retrospect, I think part of the reason Greg suffered the fate he did was because he had all of Durkon's memories dumped on him all at once without having had sufficient time to establish his own independent identity capable of standing up to them - his brief life was washed away by Durkon's longer one.

Ruck
2019-02-05, 07:12 PM
"In retrospect"? "Part of the reason"? It's made pretty explicit at the time that that is the reason.

ijuinkun
2019-02-06, 05:20 AM
Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."

A good dose of "Your god(dess) will reward you greatly in the Afterlife for carrying out His/Her will, and will be EXTREMELY angry and punish you in the Afterlife if you rebel" will keep most followers in line, given that most willing followers of an Evil god(dess) are either Evil-aligned to begin with, or are Neutral and selfish enough to care more about the promised reward than about the fates of other people. Anybody who was very likely to strongly oppose such a god(dess) would not have become his/her willing follower in the first place.

Meanwhile, if someone like the vampire priestess of Hel had any desire to avert the world's destruction, the motivation would be along the lines of "I want to continue my un-life along with any companions whom I might like", as opposed to "the people of the world in general deserve to not be killed off". The selfish desire to prolong one's own existence likely would become moot should the god(s) become sufficiently displeased, however, given the likelihood of Divine Wrath.

RatElemental
2019-02-06, 06:42 AM
This is tangentially related at best, but, are we even sure the vampires could hole up in Hel's domain with a plane shift while the new world is being built? We know the gods mindwipe all the outsiders, and that the interim is long enough that new gods don't always make the transition, and what if the next world is sentient snack food again?

It's entirely possible that in the next world vampires and/or things that have blood won't even exist.

Fyraltari
2019-02-06, 07:04 AM
This is tangentially related at best, but, are we even sure the vampires could hole up in Hel's domain with a plane shift while the new world is being built? We know the gods mindwipe all the outsiders, and that the interim is long enough that new gods don't always make the transition, and what if the next world is sentient snack food again?

It's entirely possible that in the next world vampires and/or things that have blood won't even exist.

The Outsiders seem to be transformed to fit the new World so maybe the vampires would be too?
Anyways none of the vampires know there were more than just one previous world and they could simply have been planning to get their reward in Hel.

Domino Quartz
2019-02-06, 07:34 AM
A good dose of "Your god(dess) will reward you greatly in the Afterlife for carrying out His/Her will, and will be EXTREMELY angry and punish you in the Afterlife if you rebel" will keep most followers in line, given that most willing followers of an Evil god(dess) are either Evil-aligned to begin with, or are Neutral and selfish enough to care more about the promised reward than about the fates of other people. Anybody who was very likely to strongly oppose such a god(dess) would not have become his/her willing follower in the first place.

Vampires don't go to the afterlife, though - the negative energy spirit controlling the undead body ceases to exist when the body is killed/destroyed/whatever.

mjasghar
2019-02-06, 07:54 AM
If that were the case no vampire would work for the end of the world - the implication must be they survive (or think they will survive) to claim their reward

Fyraltari
2019-02-06, 07:57 AM
If that were the case no vampire would work for the end of the world - the implication must be they survive (or think they will survive) to claim their reward

They planned to Plane Shift out of dodge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html).

D.One
2019-02-06, 11:23 AM
Would that make her from Somewhere?

Maybe. But she could have come from Someplace Else.

Ron Miel
2019-02-06, 02:29 PM
... but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.


What reasons would they have to?


Spike: I want to save the world.

Buffy: You do remember that you're a vampire, right?

Spike: We like to talk big. Vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got... dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people, billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision, with a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Piccadilly. Farewell, Leicester bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?

Fyraltari
2019-02-06, 02:35 PM
Spike: I want to save the world.

Buffy: You do remember that you're a vampire, right?

Spike: We like to talk big. Vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got... dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people, billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision, with a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Piccadilly. Farewell, Leicester bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?

It's almost like this Spike fellow has had a lifetime to start caring about the world instead of a couple dozen hours.

Peelee
2019-02-06, 02:41 PM
Man, Cowboy Bebop apparently got weird at some point; I don't even remember the vampires. Spike will never be a cool name.

Keltest
2019-02-06, 02:48 PM
Man, Cowboy Bebop apparently got weird at some point; I don't even remember the vampires. Spike will never be a cool name.

I dunno, its better than Will. Although William the Bloody sounds somewhat menacing, at least.

Rrmcklin
2019-02-06, 03:06 PM
Also, why do people keep mentioned the vampires doing this for a reward? Greg is the only one to say anything along those lines, and even then it was never portrayed as his main motivation.

I wouldn't presume the minions, and given their behavior and speech that's the best word to describe them, having such a motivation.

Jasdoif
2019-02-06, 03:11 PM
I dunno, its better than Will. Although William the Bloody sounds somewhat menacing, at least.Bloody Bill, on the other hand, sounds like an undesired payment.

Peelee
2019-02-06, 03:13 PM
Bloody Bill, on the other hand, sounds like an undesired payment.

Or a really annoying Brit.

D.One
2019-02-07, 05:20 AM
Bloody Bill, on the other hand, sounds like an undesired payment.

LOL

:sabine: "I'm the Cruel Collector, and I'm here to make you pay your Bloody Bill!"

Jaxzan Proditor
2019-02-10, 12:54 PM
Paging Jaxzan Proditor, Jaxzan Proditor please come to the thread.

Of course the one time the vampire-signal goes up its during the week I’m too busy to check the forum. But, in general the relation between a vampire and their deity is really only a negative energy reflection of the relationship the previous controller of the body had with their deity. Apart from that, they’re free-willed beings who can choose whom they worship. (source (https://mobile.twitter.com/richburlew/status/963524080484933632))(source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page11&p=17334948#post17334948))

(Also, usual disclaimer about Hel getting involved because she’s the northern god of undeath, yadda yadda yadda)

woweedd
2019-02-11, 02:28 PM
No, apparently.