Halp with Barbarian choices.

[NOMster]

currently in a homebrew campaign, just hit 3 and i'm looking at my path options. Party is ranger, rogue, sorcerer, paladin, and some others that haven't been there at the sessions i've been to.

I'm playing Longtooth shifter Barbarian. AC18 with shield. I'm wondering which is better for my party, for me to go full tank and do bear totem, to give them advantage and go wolf totem, or to make myself a bullseye and go ancestral gaurdian. thematically, these are the only ones that work with the character as written (and bear would be a stretch), so any other options wouldn't make sense in game. we will have the option for feats at 4 so that is playing into my indecision.

in your experience, which feat works best with each option or is it better to just take the points? thanks in advance.

[nickl_2000]

So, assuming that the Rogue and Ranger are melee. Wolf is the best hands down. A Paladin and a Rogue will get a lot more crits with getting advantage and that is a huge damage boon for them.


If the Ranger and the Rogue are ranged, then I would go with Ancestral Guardian to keep opponents against the squishes who's AC is going to suck.


Either way you will be fine though, so if one sounds more fun than the other, go with that one

[pdegan2814]

As a Barbarian(I've got one in an active campaign atm), I'd worry more about boosting my scores first, and I'd prioritize Constitution slightly above Strength. Yes, you need Str for attacks, but if you're willing to use Reckless Attack you can put off a Str boost for a little while. But assuming you're going without armor, boosting Con keeps you standing in two different ways, AC and HP. If you're going weapon & shield, I'd probably hold off on any feats until both your Str and Con are 18. As for *which* feats, Tough is always good for a Barbarian, but I'd max the Con first. Each +2 to Con gives you have the HP that you'd get from Tough, plus an AC and a Con save boost, both very important. I'd also look hard at Resilient(Wisdom). Between proficiency in Con saves and advantage on Dex saves your physical defenses will be in good shape, but your mental defenses could do with some help. I'd probably wait until at least Level 8 though, depending on how often you find yourself failing a Wisdom save at just the wrong moment.

[Crucius]

Nickl_2000 made some good points and to expand upon his post, I recommend the following feats/ASI's.

For Wolf totem the Sentinel feat could be a great benefit. Smart enemies will decide that walking away (and triggering one opportunity attack) is preferable to staying there and get ganged up on when the rogue and paladin's turns come around. This is just a theoretical recommendation since I don't know how you/your party/the DM play. Otherwise buffing CON as pdegan2814 mentioned is not a bad choice, it means you can stand your ground longer.

For ancestral guardian, seeing as how you wield a shield, the Mobile feat is a great choice. The name of the game is to tag the first enemy with the spirits, and then get out of striking range (with the 40 ft movement at level 5, or 50 with mobile) to hit another enemy while leaving the first behind (either out of range or with your friends).

Not really novel or exciting recommendations, but here they are nonetheless.

[NOMster]

For reference after racial bonus my str is 19, dex 16, and con is 17. If that helps

[Crucius]

Even though those stats beg for an ASI, I find it more important to take stock of what you want to do with the character and whether a feat makes that gameplay loop possible (or enhances it greatly). If not, an ASI is never wrong.

Your stats are nutty by the way, congrats with those rolls.

[Man_Over_Game]

For feats, Ancestral Guardian does exceptionally well with Mobile. With AG, you become the best possible target, and with Mobile, you can afford to run away. Combined, this means that you can use your allies as cover/obstacles as you hit the boss with Reckless Attack and run away. The Boss will have no choice but to either chase you (for reduced hit chance from Cover or provoking OA's) or to attack one of your allies (with Disadvantage and halved damage).

Sentinel works exceptionally well with Bear, since Bear will make you indestructible but inconsequential. Enemies will ignore you, and Sentinel makes sure that's not an option.

Sentinel also works with Wolf, so that enemies will be less inclined to attack your adjacent allies if you can get a free attack. It also pins enemies in place so your allies can finish them with an Advantage attack.

[NOMster]

Even though those stats beg for an ASI, I find it more important to take stock of what you want to do with the character and whether a feat makes that gameplay loop possible (or enhances it greatly). If not, an ASI is never wrong.

Your stats are nutty by the way, congrats with those rolls.
I know. Before bonuses my actual rolls in order were 12-17-15-17-12-12.

[CTurbo]

Wolf is EXTREMELY under-rated if you have other melee allies. That would be my top choice IF your party can take advantage of it. Bear is very boring but very effective if you're the only tank.

[chando]

Wolf is EXTREMELY under-rated if you have other melee allies. That would be my top choice IF your party can take advantage of it. Bear is very boring but very effective if you're the only tank.

Yes, with those stats and a paladin friend you will be making most saves and have plenty of HP to absorb those few magical attacks, gaining much more benefit from the wolf totem or the AG path, both of wich would be useful every combat round, the wolf giving more benefits for your grounp working together easily as a cohesive unit. Ideally both the barb and the pall can tank while the ranger and rogue teaming up with one of you each could bring down pretty much anything with the sorcerer and any other caster that happen to be providing support.

[CTurbo]

Yes, with those stats and a paladin friend you will be making most saves and have plenty of HP to absorb those few magical attacks, gaining much more benefit from the wolf totem or the AG path, both of which would be useful every combat round, the wolf giving more benefits for your grounp working together easily as a cohesive unit. Ideally both the barb and the pall can tank while the ranger and rogue teaming up with one of you each could bring down pretty much anything with the sorcerer and any other caster that happen to be providing support.


Wolf Totem Barb is a Rogue's best friend too. Just get Mobile so you can run up next to the Barb, attack, and run back. Rogue's crit hard.



I ran a one shot where two characters were Half-Orc twins. One was a Wolf Barb and the other was a Champion Fighter, but it was the Swashbuckler with Elven Accuracy that kept stealing the show. At level 13 he was rolling like 14 or 15 d6s on a crit which was all the time.

[NOMster]

Thanks guys. All good stuff and great input. the ranger is definitly more ranged than melee.

some of the players haven't been there when I have so i just got the rest of the team list.

Artificer
Paladin
Rogue (just hit 3 so he'll be a swashbuckler)
Sorcerer x2
Ranger (whose thinking of going into the clergy)
my barbarian

so really only melee is my guy, the rogue, and the paladin. does that change any views on it?

[GlenSmash!]

Thanks guys. All good stuff and great input. the ranger is definitly more ranged than melee.

some of the players haven't been there when I have so i just got the rest of the team list.

Artificer
Paladin
Rogue (just hit 3 so he'll be a swashbuckler)
Sorcerer x2
Ranger (whose thinking of going into the clergy)
my barbarian

so really only melee is my guy, the rogue, and the paladin. does that change any views on it?

Not mine. Giving advantage to the Paladin, swashbuckler, or potentially both is big.

Wolf it up Longtooth.

[CTurbo]

Go Wolf.

The End.

[Sigreid]

That's a melee heavy group by the looks of it. You'll get a heck of a lot out of wolf totem. For extra cheese, make a kobold so you get advantage every round too.

[NOMster]

So let's say I go Wolf, what's the best way to help myself as well next level?
Str Boost and con boost for 1 more mod or each or feat?

[Skylivedk]

Sentinel is more fun. You get to do more things (bash skulls and break knee caps) more often. It is also arguably better. You have great stats for +1 Str / +1 Con. I'd still do it at 8 or 12, depending on whether or not you go GWM. If your Paladin or rogue goes Shield bash (and you don't play with the, IMO, silly Sage Advice version), you go GWM and have fun for days. If you want to keep the Shield, Shield Master is probably gravy regardless. Just make sure that your team mates drop their initiative to be after yours and before the enemies if you play with the current Sage Advice

[CTurbo]

Either Sentinel or +1 Str and Con would be great you can't go wrong

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Wolf and Sentinel or ASI because of reasons listed. Just throwing my hat firmly in that camp.

[jaappleton]

Its very difficult to go wrong with a Barbarian path. They're all pretty damn good.

In your particular case, I'd avoid Berserker, though. You have a bonus action attack as a shifter, right?

Totem is awesome. Its empowering to know you can Rage and damn near nothing hits you for full damage. Zealot is also really nice, and Ancestral Guardian can keep allies alive.

If the Rogue is melee, I'd advocate for Totem - Wolf, but you can really pick just about any path as they all have their benefits.

The only I'd outright avoid is Storm Herald. Its just... Lacking. The others do so much more.

[Skylivedk]

If you play with feats, stay away from Frenzy.. That bonus action attack is way way too expensive

[NOMster]

Frenzy isn't on my radar at all. Just wolf or AG.

[NOMster]

So again thanks to everyone.
I ended up going with the Ancestral Guardian for the RP of a maniacal barbarian that talks to spirits no one can see until he rages. also, the ancestors think he's a weakling so they won't help him in a fight, but instead help his allies so the enemies focus on beating him up to try to make him tougher and stronger. bonus points-when danger sense works its because the spirit is helping him. when it doesn't, it's because the spirit is being an *******. basically every new special ability he gets will be because the spirits granted it to him for getting a little better.


that said, I'm at lvl4 now and looking at feat or ASI.

mobile tops the list for reasons given. the idea of running in with reckless attack and running out before enemy can use their advantage sounds fantastic for someone who is being targeted by spirits to make bad guys focus on him.

lucky seems like it could also work really well with the character and the way I'm playing the guardians. his luck is actually them helping him out, but they only do it sometimes so he doesn't get complacent.

The UA Brawny feat would also get STR up and i like the flavor of it due to the campaign.

ASI would always be good since it would max str and bring con up to an even number.

seems like sentinel is better suited to the wolf totem setup

only other str or con boosting feat i saw was tavern brawler which doesn't seem like much use otherwise.


any other feats i should consider?

[GlenSmash!]

So again thanks to everyone.
I ended up going with the Ancestral Guardian for the RP of a maniacal barbarian that talks to spirits no one can see until he rages. also, the ancestors think he's a weakling so they won't help him in a fight, but instead help his allies so the enemies focus on beating him up to try to make him tougher and stronger. bonus points-when danger sense works its because the spirit is helping him. when it doesn't, it's because the spirit is being an *******. basically every new special ability he gets will be because the spirits granted it to him for getting a little better.


that said, I'm at lvl4 now and looking at feat or ASI.

mobile tops the list for reasons given. the idea of running in with reckless attack and running out before enemy can use their advantage sounds fantastic for someone who is being targeted by spirits to make bad guys focus on him.

lucky seems like it could also work really well with the character and the way I'm playing the guardians. his luck is actually them helping him out, but they only do it sometimes so he doesn't get complacent.

The UA Brawny feat would also get STR up and i like the flavor of it due to the campaign.

ASI would always be good since it would max str and bring con up to an even number.

seems like sentinel is better suited to the wolf totem setup

only other str or con boosting feat i saw was tavern brawler which doesn't seem like much use otherwise.


any other feats i should consider?

Brawny is a great option if you want to carry more, and grapple more easily. With your stat's however +1 Str and +1 Con seems to be the strongest option to me. Odd scores are wasted potential.

A good defensive feat like Resilient Wisdom or Lucky are super useful on Barbarians though. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you spend the fight incapacitated from a failed wisdom save.

As far as the other feats you mention, Sentinel is great for stopping people from getting to your friends, it could combine well with the AG abilities or you might find the AG abilities enough and want to branch out in different ways. Tavern Brawler provides a bonus action grapple attempt, which you'll need a free hand for I think you are weapon and Shield right now, so you'd have to ditch on or the other to focus on grappling. And you have to hit with an unarmed or improvised weapon attack to trigger it.

The only other Con boosting feats I can remember right now are Durable, and Gourmand (UA). Both of which are useful if you find you are spending a lot of hit dice on short rests. The latter is especially flavorful :smallcool:

Still I'd pump those odd stats first.

[guachi]

Go Wolf.

If I were the Paladin in your party I'd take GWM and be joined at the hip. More crits = better smites = more free bonus action attacks. Having DMed a party with a wolf barbarian (it was a dog flavored as a henchman barbarian) it's almost unfair. The dog himself didn't do much damage but the melee ranger and paladin certainly loved it (and the melee moon druid and monk who were there before the paladin joined). Even the sorcerer would occasionally join in to cast shocking grasp with advantage and make himself a melee target if things were getting dicey.

[Man_Over_Game]

So again thanks to everyone.
I ended up going with the Ancestral Guardian for the RP of a maniacal barbarian that talks to spirits no one can see until he rages. also, the ancestors think he's a weakling so they won't help him in a fight, but instead help his allies so the enemies focus on beating him up to try to make him tougher and stronger. bonus points-when danger sense works its because the spirit is helping him. when it doesn't, it's because the spirit is being an *******. basically every new special ability he gets will be because the spirits granted it to him for getting a little better.


that said, I'm at lvl4 now and looking at feat or ASI.

mobile tops the list for reasons given. the idea of running in with reckless attack and running out before enemy can use their advantage sounds fantastic for someone who is being targeted by spirits to make bad guys focus on him.

lucky seems like it could also work really well with the character and the way I'm playing the guardians. his luck is actually them helping him out, but they only do it sometimes so he doesn't get complacent.

The UA Brawny feat would also get STR up and i like the flavor of it due to the campaign.

ASI would always be good since it would max str and bring con up to an even number.

seems like sentinel is better suited to the wolf totem setup

only other str or con boosting feat i saw was tavern brawler which doesn't seem like much use otherwise.


any other feats i should consider?

As a former Ancestral Guardian, I can attest that you will not need incentive for people to attack you. If you need to preserve your HP, you can just attack and run away. If you have plenty of HP and can absorb a few hits, you can attack and stay in place. Do not think that enemies need any more reason to focus you because you picked up Sentinel or some kind of grappling feature.

Rather, pick abilities that work well with the fact that enemies are going to do everything they can to kill you. Maybe things like the Tough feat or Dual Wielder. With Mobile, Dual Wielder can really make you an obnoxious target, dealing high damage while boasting high AC and running from everyone like a maniac. You won't even need to Reckless Attack every turn by being able to swing an extra time (so you can afford to use Reckless Attack when against a single target or just TWF against multiple but attacking a single target).

Shield Master can also work well at improving your survivability, especially since you have several high-damage melee combatants in your party as it is. It's not like the AG or Barbarian have much use for their Bonus Action, so it can be a solid choice to use.

Don't forget that the AG attack activation works off of any attack, regardless of range. Pack a few Javelins so you can taunt the boss without having to engage in melee combat as needed. You might just save the team if you taunt a Dragon and move away from your party (so that the Dragon is forced to focus on you rather than using their breath attack efficiently).

[NOMster]

Forgot to mention that the paladin dropped out I guess and the rogue is part time at best. Since the ranger is really ranged, My only real melee partner is a Goliath fighter who is always trying to outdo me. Also some of the Squishies haven't figure out yet that they don't need to be next to the bads. All of this played into me going AG.
HP isn't really an issue since I get +6 when I shift and I do have one sorcerer that will cast enhance ability on me to add HP in the middle of every fight.

[GlenSmash!]

Shield Master can also work well at improving your survivability, especially since you have several high-damage melee combatants in your party as it is. It's not like the AG or Barbarian have much use for their Bonus Action, so it can be a solid choice to use.

Good idea. As an enemy annoying AG, boosting survival is a good way to make yourself useful longer.


Don't forget that the AG attack activation works off of any attack, regardless of range. Pack a few Javelins so you can taunt the boss without having to engage in melee combat as needed. You might just save the team if you taunt a Dragon and move away from your party (so that the Dragon is forced to focus on you rather than using their breath attack efficiently).

Solid idea too, to the point where I would say get a Longbow to make sure you can harass bad guys, even when they are out of Javelin range.

[sophontteks]

Bear is the second worst option. Its good, don't get me wrong. But the other options are better.

My fav. is eagle. No need for ranged weapons when you can move 80 feet per round. Your friends will appreciate you breaking all opportunity attacks . Oh, and dragging people 40 feet per round is fun too. This could give you the real feel of a werewolf with the blinding speed that gets even better when you can fly at 14.

[NOMster]

As a former Ancestral Guardian, I can attest that you will not need incentive for people to attack you. If you need to preserve your HP, you can just attack and run away. If you have plenty of HP and can absorb a few hits, you can attack and stay in place. Do not think that enemies need any more reason to focus you because you picked up Sentinel or some kind of grappling feature.

Rather, pick abilities that work well with the fact that enemies are going to do everything they can to kill you. Maybe things like the Tough feat or Dual Wielder. With Mobile, Dual Wielder can really make you an obnoxious target, dealing high damage while boasting high AC and running from everyone like a maniac. You won't even need to Reckless Attack every turn by being able to swing an extra time (so you can afford to use Reckless Attack when against a single target or just TWF against multiple but attacking a single target).

Shield Master can also work well at improving your survivability, especially since you have several high-damage melee combatants in your party as it is. It's not like the AG or Barbarian have much use for their Bonus Action, so it can be a solid choice to use.

Don't forget that the AG attack activation works off of any attack, regardless of range. Pack a few Javelins so you can taunt the boss without having to engage in melee combat as needed. You might just save the team if you taunt a Dragon and move away from your party (so that the Dragon is forced to focus on you rather than using their breath attack efficiently).


So a question on dual wielder, when I get the extra attack at l5, does that mean I can use my attack action to attack, use my bonus action to make a second attack and still have a 3rd attack from dual wielder? That's insane if it's true.

[GlenSmash!]

So a question on dual wielder, when I get the extra attack at l5, does that mean I can use my attack action to attack, use my bonus action to make a second attack and still have a 3rd attack from dual wielder? That's insane if it's true.

Not quite.

You would get two attacks from the attack action with Extra Attack, and one with a bonus action from dual wielding. Also the feat doesn't grant a bonus action attack, just allows use of larger one handed weapons, a +1 AC when dual wielding, and can draw both weapons on the same turn.

And it's hardly insane, most math crunches say it lags behind at mid to high levels.

[Man_Over_Game]

Agreed with Glen. Two Weapon Fighting does have a big more longevity with Barbarians, since they get a Rage damage bonus that scales with their level, but here's some quick math for you, assuming your modifier is +3 and no feats:



Level
W/ TWF
W/O TWF


1
(1d6+2)x2+3=14
1d12+2+3=11.5


5
(1d6+2)x3+6=22.5
(1d12+2+3)x2=23


10
(1d6+3)x3+6=25.5
(1d12+3+3)x2=25


15
(1d6+3)x3+6=25.5
(1d12+3+3)x2=25


20
(1d6+4)x3+10=32.5
(1d12+4+5)x2=31



The Two Weapon Fighter version is spending a Bonus Action each turn to just break even with someone using a Great Axe. The main reason people use Two Weapon Fighting is to abuse some kind of on-hit effect (See: Hunter's Mark, Hex), or to sacrifice a bit of damage for versatility.

When considering the Dual Wielder feat, just add +1 damage per attack for each instance of Two Weapon Fighter (which puts it slightly ahead). This would equal +2 damage at level 1, and +3 damage from level 5-20.

[NOMster]

Agreed with Glen. Two Weapon Fighting does have a big more longevity with Barbarians, since they get a Rage damage bonus that scales with their level, but here's some quick math for you, assuming your modifier is +3 and no feats:



Level
W/ TWF
W/O TWF


1
(1d6+2)x2+3=14
1d12+2+3=11.5


5
(1d6+2)x3+6=22.5
(1d12+2+3)x2=23


10
(1d6+3)x3+6=25.5
(1d12+3+3)x2=25


15
(1d6+3)x3+6=25.5
(1d12+3+3)x2=25


20
(1d6+4)x3+10=32.5
(1d12+4+5)x2=31



The Two Weapon Fighter version is spending a Bonus Action each turn to just break even with someone using a Great Axe. The main reason people use Two Weapon Fighting is to abuse some kind of on-hit effect (See: Hunter's Mark, Hex), or to sacrifice a bit of damage for versatility.

When considering the Dual Wielder feat, just add +1 damage per attack for each instance of Two Weapon Fighter (which puts it slightly ahead). This would equal +2 damage at level 1, and +3 damage from level 5-20.

Okay so what about if I'm using a +1 Longsword and a Warhammer? STR of +4

[Man_Over_Game]

Okay so what about if I'm using a +1 Longsword and a Warhammer? STR of +4

Modifiers aren't applied when using Two Weapon Fighting on the off attack, unless you have the Fighting style from Ranger or Fighter.

Assuming both sides are fair in the number of feats, Fighting styles and weapon quality, TWF is generally worse for Barbarians and pretty much anyone.

[NOMster]

I guess I'm getting confused. TWF isn't on the table for me but going back and forth between twf and dual weilding is mixing me up on the message here.

[Man_Over_Game]

I guess I'm getting confused. TWF isn't on the table for me but going back and forth between twf and dual weilding is mixing me up on the message here.

TWF=Dual wielding. The Dual Wielder feat is just a feat that makes Two Weapon Fighting better. You can't have Dual Wielder before talking about Two Weapon Fighting (not to be confused with the Fighting style which let's you add your modifier when doing TWF)

Two handed Fighting (THF) is better improved by Polearm Master (PAM) and Great Weapon Master (GWM).

[NOMster]

TWF=Dual wielding. The Dual Wielder feat is just a feat that makes Two Weapon Fighting better. You can't have Dual Wielder before talking about Two Weapon Fighting (not to be confused with the Fighting style which let's you add your modifier when doing TWF)

Two handed Fighting (THF) is better improved by Polearm Master (PAM) and Great Weapon Master (GWM).
Yeah the fighting style is what was mixing me up

[NOMster]

Doing the math it comes out better with the +1 longsword. I don't know if it's enough to use up a bonus action forever to get +1 AC. I guess the idea sounded good in my head.

[Man_Over_Game]

Doing the math it comes out better with the +1 longsword. I don't know if it's enough to use up a bonus action forever to get +1 AC. I guess the idea sounded good in my head.

I think you may have done your math wrong. With TWF, you'd need two magic weapons, otherwise the magic weapon only applies to attacks with your main hand. Similarly, a THF using a magic weapon would have the benefits applied to their main hand attacks (AKA all their attacks).

So a +1 Longsword, on a TWF who gets 3 attacks would get +2 damage, and on a THF with 2 attacks would get +2 damage. You'd need a second magical weapon for TWF to come ahead.

Dual Wielder does make it a lot more consistent than GWM as far as dealing damage, and it does make you a lot tankier (since you aren't relying on Reckless Attack for most of your damage output), but it's generally not much better than someone waving a giant axe around.

Still, it's worth considering when combined with Hex, Hunter's Mark, Hexblade's Curse, and even Barbarian's Rage (which really helps make it a competitive choice), but generally it's just bad.

The primary benefit, IMO, is to allow a character to seamlessly jump between ranged and melee combat, considering most Finesse weapons are Light. You don't deal as much damage in melee combat as someone with a giant axe, but you still were able to shoot two long-range shots off and are stay ahead of the axe-swinging maniac.

[NOMster]

But I'm not comparing it to the fighters THF. That's what is confusing I guess.

I'm just comparing dual Wielder with +1 Longsword in one hand and Warhammer in the other to using a Greataxe and taking a different feat.

[Man_Over_Game]

But I'm not comparing it to the fighters THF. That's what is confusing I guess.

I'm just comparing dual Wielder with +1 Longsword in one hand and Warhammer in the other to using a Greataxe and taking a different feat.

Right, neither am I.

Say you have a +1 magic weapon.

The person using two weapons, one of them being magical, will get +1-2 damage per round by using the magic weapon.

The person using one big weapon, one of them being magical, will get +1-2 damage per round by using the magic weapon.

The person using Dual Wielder, using the Dual Wielder feat, will get +2-3 damage per round.

The person using one big weapon, using the Great Weapon Master feat, will get about +4 damage per round (heavily varies based on enemy's AC and the availability of Advantage).

[NOMster]

The Greataxe isn't magical

[Man_Over_Game]

The Greataxe isn't magical

But then you're just comparing someone who has a magical weapon vs. someone who doesn't, which isn't an accurate method of determining a build's power level.

[GlenSmash!]

GWM is one think PAM is quite another.

Even losing a +1 longsword average damage will be higher with 1d10+str+rage + 1d10+srtr+rage + 1d4+str+rage vs 1d6+str+rage + 1d6+str+rage + 1d6+rage.

[NOMster]

I don't know what the disconnect is here. But I'm not talking about anything else. I'm not comparing power level builds. Just trying to decide my next feat. I currently have a +1 Longsword and I do not have a +1 Greataxe. Just a regular one. So I'm literallylooking specifically at this option...

+1 Longsword, warhammer, dual Wielder

Or

Greataxe, mobile

[GlenSmash!]

I don't know what the disconnect is here. But I'm not talking about anything else. I'm not comparing power level builds. Just trying to decide my next feat. I currently have a +1 Longsword and I do not have a +1 Greataxe. Just a regular one. So I'm literallylooking specifically at this option...

+1 Longsword, warhammer, dual Wielder

Greataxe, mobile

The disconnect to me is right here:


any other feats i should consider?

[Man_Over_Game]

GWM is one think PAM is quite another.

Even losing a +1 longsword average damage will be higher with 1d10+str+rage + 1d10+srtr+rage + 1d4+str+rage vs 1d6+str+rage + 1d6+str+rage + 1d6+rage.

Make sure to compare feats vs. feats. You can't give the heavy version PAM when the two-weapon version doesn't get Dual Wielder.

It'd look more like this:

1d10x2 + 1d4 vs. 3d8.

Which comes out to:

13.5 vs. 13.5

The difference is, the PAM has an extra option to attack when enemies approach and has reach, where the Dual Wielder gains +1 AC and draws two weapons at a time (good for ranged attacks).

---------------

As to which feat is going to work the best, don't make builds off of a +1 item that you're going to replace in the next few levels. Rather, find a playstyle that works for you.

Personally, I like Mobile on a Barbarian, and Dual Wielder is incredibly versatile on them too. I'd probably go Mobile, as it adds so many options to the Barbarian toolkit.

[NOMster]

The disconnect to me is right here:

Sorry see below

[NOMster]

The disconnect to me is right here:

That wasn't for you.

[GlenSmash!]

Make sure to compare feats vs. feats. You can't give the heavy version PAM when the two-weapon version doesn't get Dual Wielder.

It'd look more like this:

1d10x2 + 1d4 vs. 3d8.

Which comes out to:

13.5 vs. 13.5

The difference is, the PAM has an extra option to attack when enemies approach and has reach, where the Dual Wielder gains +1 AC and draws two weapons at a time (good for ranged attacks).

Excellent points.

[GlenSmash!]

Right. But when you start throwing in magical greataxe it skewers the question because I don't have one.

And you might not want to use the +1 Longsword later either.

You could find a magic Greataxe that's way sweeter than a+1 longsword and you end up kicking yourself for having taken that feat, and wish you could rebuild your character now.

A lot can occur over the course of an adventure. Heck it could be stolen, or destroyed.

This is why Man_Over_Game is encouraging you to think about the feats at face value.

[NOMster]

And you might not want to use the +1 Longsword later either.

You could find a magic Greataxe that's way sweeter than a+1 longsword and you end up kicking yourself for having taken that feat, and wish you could rebuild your character now.

A lot can occur over the course of an adventure. Heck it could be stolen, or destroyed.

This is why Man_Over_Game is encouraging you to think about the feats at face value.

That makes sense. In fact that last bit is probably the best argument for taking the ASI

[NOMster]

So, I took Mobile after all. the temptation of running around hitting enemies and running away was too much with the characters story. also, next level getting that other 10' and extra attack makes it even sweeter. we had our first session so i got to see it in action and it immediately paid off huge. especially with the Ancestral Guardians help. Thanks everyone for the input and opinions.

[GlenSmash!]

So, I took Mobile after all. the temptation of running around hitting enemies and running away was too much with the characters story. also, next level getting that other 10' and extra attack makes it even sweeter. we had our first session so i got to see it in action and it immediately paid off huge. especially with the Ancestral Guardians help. Thanks everyone for the input and opinions.

I like Mobile on Barbarians. A lot of people don't value it much since Barbs already get a speed boost and see Barbs as tanks which should stand next to enemies instead of running away.

Ancestral Guardians is one where it gets a bit more out of mobile. After marking a foe then leading him on a chase.

It also mitigates the effects of reckless attack if you can run far enough that your enemies can't reach you.

I'd consider a rogue dip down the road, for bonus action dash.

[NOMster]

I like Mobile on Barbarians. A lot of people don't value it much since Barbs already get a speed boost and see Barbs as tanks which should stand next to enemies instead of running away.

Ancestral Guardians is one where it gets a bit more out of mobile. After marking a foe then leading him on a chase.

It also mitigates the effects of reckless attack if you can run far enough that your enemies can't reach you.

I'd consider a rogue dip down the road, for bonus action dash.
Reckless attack is where it shines. Just nuts how well that plays with the mobile feat and ancestral guardian.

[NOMster]

Looking into the future, once STR and CON are maxed, I'll still have 2 bumps/feats left. So my options then are (listed in what I'm thinking is best to worst). Keeping in mind I use reckless pretty much every attack.

1. Max Dex (it would take 2 ASIs)
2. Bump Dex by 1 and take a feat (suggestions?)
3. Take 2 feats (suggestions)
4. Bump Dex and 1 other stat. (Wisdom maybe?)
5. Bump 2 other stats (seems pointless)

What say you? Is the order correct? Are there any feats that make option 2 better than option 1? Etc.

[CTurbo]

Not sure what you have now, but...

Res(Wis) is a great feat for Barbs. It really shores up your major weakness.
Ritual Caster is also great for Barbs. It gives you some really cool things to do outside of combat.
Lucky is a top late feat choice for obvious reasons.
Sentinel if you don't already have it(only if nobody else has it)
Alert and Mobile are good on anybody

[NOMster]

Not sure what you have now, but...

Res(Wis) is a great feat for Barbs. It really shores up your major weakness.
Ritual Caster is also great for Barbs. It gives you some really cool things to do outside of combat.
Lucky is a top late feat choice for obvious reasons.
Sentinel if you don't already have it(only if nobody else has it)
Alert and Mobile are good on anybody


Right now I'm AG lvl5 with Mobile.
Str19
Dex16
Con17
Wis12
Int12
Cha12

I'll be bumping str/con at 8 and conx2 at 12.

I was wondering if alert and feral instinct are kind of redundant. I know it's technically different but are they too similar to have real effect?

[GlenSmash!]

Right now I'm AG lvl5 with Mobile.
Str19
Dex16
Con17
Wis12
Int12
Cha12

I'll be bumping str/con at 8 and conx2 at 12.

I was wondering if alert and feral instinct are kind of redundant. I know it's technically different but are they too similar to have real effect?

Yup they would feel pretty redundant, unless for some reason you were surprised when out of Rages. I would definitely prioritize a defensive feat like resilient Wisdom or a versatile one like lucky.

The best damage dealing or damage taking barbarian isn't worth jack squat when incapacitated form a failed wisdom saving throw.

[NOMster]

Yup they would feel pretty redundant, unless for some reason you were surprised when out of Rages. I would definitely prioritize a defensive feat like resilient Wisdom or a versatile one like lucky.

The best damage dealing or damage taking barbarian isn't worth jack squat when incapacitated form a failed wisdom saving throw.


Lucky could be a winner. It could even make sense with the story. Instead of "luck" I could paint it as his ancestral guardian affecting the outcome. But his ability to affect fate is limited at best.

[CTurbo]

Right now I'm AG lvl5 with Mobile.
Str19
Dex16
Con17
Wis12
Int12
Cha12

I'll be bumping str/con at 8 and conx2 at 12.

I was wondering if alert and feral instinct are kind of redundant. I know it's technically different but are they too similar to have real effect?


How about a feat that reflects your offensive style? Great Weapon Master, Duel Wielder, Polearm Master, Shield Master, etc...

But yeah definitely Res(Wis)

I guess Ritual Caster doesn't interest you? I'd take it over maxing Con. Magic Initiate is great too, but to a lesser extent.

[NOMster]

How about a feat that reflects your offensive style? Great Weapon Master, Duel Wielder, Polearm Master, Shield Master, etc...

But yeah definitely Res(Wis)

I guess Ritual Caster doesn't interest you? I'd take it over maxing Con. Magic Initiate is great too, but to a lesser extent.

Dual wielder and Shield master are ruled out. (Thanks to everyone again for explaining things despite my ignorance. Especially MOG and Glensmash)

I know there is a lot of debate on PAM vs GWM, I would likely go GWM because he has a lot of bonus actions already. And now I know that our party will be magic item and plus weapon heavy. I've already gotten a +1 Greatsword and a +1 Greataxe (just as Glensmash predicted) since level 4.

I would go mage slayer before ritual caster or magic initiate. he's not fond of magic.

[GlenSmash!]

Dual wielder and Shield master are ruled out. (Thanks to everyone again for explaining things despite my ignorance. Especially MOG and Glensmash)

I know there is a lot of debate on PAM vs GWM, I would likely go GWM because he has a lot of bonus actions already. And now I know that our party will be magic item and plus weapon heavy. I've already gotten a +1 Greatsword and a +1 Greataxe (just as Glensmash predicted) since level 4.

I would go mage slayer before ritual caster or magic initiate. he's not fond of magic.

I tend to pick GWM before PAM on my Barbarians as the choice of weapons is wider. I also like how it pairs with Reckless attack.

It's a super sold combo for clearing out large swaths of Low AC low HP enemies.

In my last 2 out of three sessions the party face multiple Shadows. 3-5 in a combat plus other monsters. The shadows were getting awfully close to killing a couple members of the party through strength damage alone. So I turned away from the BBEG I was wailing on (I think he missed his AoO) and turned on the -5/+10 and Recklessly Attacked the Shadows. I killed the first in a single blow, triggering the bonus action attack, killed the second in one blow, and then moved to the 3rd and got it too. It was a perfect round. As I was mopping up the Shadows the party was free to focus fire on the BBEG.

Anyway it's super good on those types of nasty creatures that are super dangerous but can be killed in one blow with a +10 to damage. Shadows and Intellect Devourers and such.

[NOMster]

I tend to pick GWM before PAM on my Barbarians as the choice of weapons is wider. I also like how it pairs with Reckless attack.

It's a super sold combo for clearing out large swaths of Low AC low HP enemies.

In my last 2 out of three sessions the party face multiple Shadows. 3-5 in a combat plus other monsters. The shadows were getting awfully close to killing a couple members of the party through strength damage alone. So I turned away from the BBEG I was wailing on (I think he missed his AoO) and turned on the -5/+10 and Recklessly Attacked the Shadows. I killed the first in a single blow, triggering the bonus action attack, killed the second in one blow, and then moved to the 3rd and got it too. It was a perfect round. As I was mopping up the Shadows the party was free to focus fire on the BBEG.

Anyway it's super good on those types of nasty creatures that are super dangerous but can be killed in one blow with a +10 to damage. Shadows and Intellect Devourers and such.

Thats an amazing round