Are kensai monks bad?

[Dankus Memakus]

So i had a character concept of a dwarf kensai monk. My idea is that he was like a more western monk, kind of like a friar who carries a longsword and a bow. However, upon reading into it, due to the wording of agile parry there seems to be a popular opinion that kensai is bad since you must forgo your kensai weapon. Is this correct?

[MaxWilson]

Is the popular opinion correct about what Agile Parry requires you to do? Yes. Does that make Kensai bad? Harder to say, but as a DM I will unhesitatingly say that Kensai Monks should have the option to Flurry with their kensai weapon, because using your kensai weapon a lot is exactly what the player signed up for. If you give them that extra feature then Agile Parry no longer hurts as much.

[Dankus Memakus]

Is the popular opinion correct about what Agile Parry requires you to do? Yes. Does that make Kensai bad? Harder to say, but as a DM I will unhesitatingly say that Kensai Monks should have the option to Flurry with their kensai weapon, because using your kensai weapon a lot is exactly what the player signed up for. If you give them that extra feature then Agile Parry no longer hurts as much.

My group sticks pretty much to RAW unless sage advice advises a change. Sadly this is not an option.

[MaxWilson]

My group sticks pretty much to RAW unless sage advice advises a change. Sadly this is not an option.

In that case I would either (1) play a Kensai, not worry too much about Agile Parry, and have as much fun as you can with your concept despite using more unarmed attacks than you originally planned on; or (2) eschew Kensai entirely and just make a Monk 1/Fighter X (maybe with a splash of Rogue for extra damage/etc.).

The basic Monk chassis is still pretty strong, so Kensai isn't terrible. It's just a missed design opportunity.

[Dankus Memakus]

In that case I would either (1) play a Kensai, not worry too much about Agile Parry, and have as much fun as you can with your concept despite using more unarmed attacks than you originally planned on; or (2) eschew Kensai entirely and just make a Monk 1/Fighter X (maybe with a splash of Rogue for extra damage/etc.).

The basic Monk chassis is still pretty strong, so Kensai isn't terrible. It's just a missed design opportunity.

I had also debated drunken master, sun soul, or long death. Should i just dump kensai for one of these? If so which one?

[MightyDuck]

Absolutely not, from my experience kensei are great fun and reasonably strong mechanically. Agile parry may be a very strong feature but its not always going to be necassary, it's a matter of chosing when to play offesively and go for damage or play defensively and going for AC, it's not restrictive unless you play it that way, it's versitile and when you get more features your weapon is gonna become a lot more effective. Also never forget that kensei monks are arguable the best monks for ranged combat, which when combined with the monks mobility and versitiliy is a blast to play.

[Dankus Memakus]

Absolutely not, from my experience kensei are great fun and reasonably strong mechanically. Agile parry may be a very strong feature but its not always going to be necassary, it's a matter of chosing when to play offesively and go for damage or play defensively and going for AC, it's not restrictive unless you play it that way, it's versitile and when you get more features your weapon is gonna become a lot more effective. Also never forget that kensei monks are arguable the best monks for ranged combat, which when combined with the monks mobility and versitiliy is a blast to play.

Isnt a kensai monk only a few average damage higher than another type of monk? Cant argue with range thats true

[Vorpalchicken]

Unless I've read it wrong, once you have extra attack, you can attack once with your weapon and once unarmed to get the benefit of agile parry. So you've got that.
But I do find Kensei a little underwhelming. I'm guessing they didn't want these monks to out-fight fighters.

[Spiritchaser]

Monks should have the option to Flurry with their kensai weapon, because using your kensai weapon a lot is exactly what the player signed up for. If you give them that extra feature then Agile Parry no longer hurts as much.

It’s interesting, I’ve been debating exactly this change at my table. The campaign with the Kensai has been on hold for months, so I’ve had plenty of time.

The main issue I see is that in combination with some items, this becomes very potent, and does start to crowd out non GWM fighter builds but on balance, I’d more or less decided to try it and see.

You wouldn’t happen to have seen a Kensai like this and a fighter level up together would you?

[Dankus Memakus]

Unless I've read it wrong, once you have extra attack, you can attack once with your weapon and once unarmed to get the benefit of agile parry. So you've got that.
But I do find Kensei a little underwhelming. I'm guessing they didn't want these monks to out-fight fighters.

Yes this is true. I guess your right. I just really like the concept of an unarmored swordsman and i wish it had a better ability.

[MaxWilson]

I had also debated drunken master, sun soul, or long death. Should i just dump kensai for one of these? If so which one?

IMO Long Death is the most fun of these, especially if you play it up like an utterly fearless Terminator and e.g. take a harpoon through your chest and just completely ignore it (Mastery of Death) and keep killing stuff, not even bothering to remove the harpoon until later. You also have some fun crowd control options via fear.


It’s interesting, I’ve been debating exactly this change at my table. The campaign with the Kensai has been on hold for months, so I’ve had plenty of time.

The main issue I see is that in combination with some items, this becomes very potent, and does start to crowd out non GWM fighter builds but on balance, I’d more or less decided to try it and see.

You wouldn’t happen to have seen a Kensai like this and a fighter level up together would you?

Nope. I haven't seen any Kensais in play at all in fact--this tweak is my response to the problem but it doesn't seem to be enough to make them compelling, which is one reason I'm so comfortable with it. If it were overpowered I would have seen at least a few Kensai monks in play.

Bear in mind also that the Kensai will look strongest at 5th level when he's making four sword attacks in a round while the fighter is only making two or three (four or five when Action Surging). By level 11, the Fighter is making six or seven attacks when action surging and the Kensai is still capped at four, and by level 20 the Fighter is making eight, nine, or ten when action surging and the Kensai is still making only four. (And the fighter is less MAD and has more ASIs, so he will have more cool feats like Sentinel and Defensive Duelist.) If my games stopped at level 7ish I guess maybe I'd see fewer Fighters and more Barbarians/Kensai monks/etc.

BTW, non-GWM fighters are already crowded out by Sharpshooter/GWM fighters. Not to say that I don't see sword-and-shield fighters, but usually only for specific reasons, like that Healer Prodigy (Athletics) Heavy Armor Master Purple Dragon scholar-knight who judo'ed demons into submission so the rest of the party could wail on them at advantage. Anyone who really wants to be doing damage instead of tanking is going to go either Sharpshooter or GWM already, so that's what the Kensai would be competing with.

[MightyDuck]

Isnt a kensai monk only a few average damage higher than another type of monk? Cant argue with range thats true

At first yes, there isn't much difference but there are a few things to keep in mind; 1d10 (longsword) vs 1d6 isn't going to seem like much at first but it stacks up over time, you are going to get features to improve your damage and consistency at higher levels which will increase your dpr considerably, since you are a monk you have a lot of attacks which means more crits, you can use magic weapons and very simply, weapons are freakin cool!

[MaxWilson]

At first yes, there isn't much difference but there are a few things to keep in mind; 1d10 (longsword) vs 1d6 isn't going to seem like much at first but it stacks up over time, you are going to get features to improve your damage and consistency at higher levels which will increase your dpr considerably, since you are a monk you have a lot of attacks which means more crits, you can use magic weapons and very simply, weapons are freakin cool!

Meh. Even at range, Kensais already don't even have archery style. I've seen Wood Elf Shadow Monks play effective (longbow) archers in the past, but they aren't power-houses, and nothing in the Kensai subclass would do very much to change that unless you also let Flurry of Blows work with Kensai weapons, in which case they'd become about on par with Eldritch Knight archers until their ki runs out.

[MightyDuck]

Meh. Even at range, Kensais already don't even have archery style. I've seen Wood Elf Shadow Monks play effective (longbow) archers in the past, but they aren't power-houses, and nothing in the Kensai subclass would do very much to change that unless you also let Flurry of Blows work with Kensai weapons, in which case they'd become about on par with Eldritch Knight archers until their ki runs out.

The thing that everyone in this thread seems to forget is that the kensei is a monk, they aren't suppose to be dpr powerhouses like the fighter or barbarian, what makes the kensei good at range is their insane mobility and defensive capabilities, as well as the fact that they can switch from ranged to melee seamlessly and remain consistent, comparing them to sheer dpr classes is unfair, they have a completely different role.

[MaxWilson]

The thing that everyone in this thread seems to forget is that the kensei is a monk, they aren't suppose to be dpr powerhouses like the fighter or barbarian, what makes the kensei good at range is their insane mobility and defensive capabilities, as well as the fact that they can switch from ranged to melee seamlessly and remain consistent, comparing them to sheer dpr classes is unfair, they have a completely different role.

But Shadow Monks already have that same insane mobility and defensive capability, due to the basic monk features and Shadow Jump. They're effective archers, particularly at levels 5-10 (before cantrip scaling and Fighter Extra Attack 3 start to pull ahead) but Kensai archers don't add much value on top of the basic monk package. They're about as good at archery as non-Kensai monks.

[MightyDuck]

But Shadow Monks already have that same insane mobility and defensive capability. They're effective archers, particularly at levels 5-10 (before cantrip scaling and Fighter Extra Attack 3 start to pull ahead) but Kensai don't add much on top of that package.

Again, they fill completely different roles, shadow monks do not have longbow proficiency and so force a multiclass, feat or specific race and even then they cannot use the long bow as a monk weapon, so they can't switch from ranged to melee as easily. Also, shadow monks have no features that enhance ranged damage whereas kensei does in abundance, the shadow monk enhances the base monks mobility and adds stealth, while the kensei gives the monk more damage options to increase their combat versatility and consistency.

[MaxWilson]

Again, they fill completely different roles, shadow monks do not have longbow proficiency and so force a multiclass, feat or specific race and even then they cannot use the long bow as a monk weapon, so they can't switch from ranged to melee as easily. Also, shadow monks have no features that enhance ranged damage whereas kensei does in abundance, the shadow monk enhances the base monks mobility and adds stealth, while the kensei gives the monk more damage options to increase their combat versatility and consistency.

What do you mean by this? Shadow Monks don't need to use longbows in melee, they can just use regular quarterstaffs and monk attacks.

The whole issue is that Kensais don't really have good features to enhance ranged damage. Hooray, you can spend your bonus action to add +d4 damage to one arrow per turn, and you can spend a ki point to add another +d6 (d8 at level 11, d10 at level 15). Getting to shoot magical arrows is kind of nice against weapon-resistant beasts is kind of nice, but aside from that, the best Kensai damage-enhancing feature is Sharpen the Blade at level 11, but it's pretty pretty meh: as a bonus action, spend up to 3 ki to add +3 to hit on your two arrows per turn. You don't have enough Extra Attacks to make that bonus exciting.

You said it yourself: Kensai archers are not damage power houses compared to Fighters/etc. They're not even that good compared to other monks unless you change the rules. (I therefore advocate changing the rules so that Shadow Monk = sneaky monk, Long Death = unkillable monk, Kensai = hard-hitting monk instead of <pointless> monk.)

[MightyDuck]

Okay, I'm at my laptop now so I can explain myself more clearly;

A level 17 kensei with a longbow and +5 dex can, in a round; attack twice with the longbow, using sharpen the blade to add +3 to both attacks (1d8+5+3)+(1d8+5+3)= Avg 24, use deft strike to add 1d10 for Avg 29 damage and then use kensei shot for an extra 1d4 using their bonus action for an average damage of 31 per turn, assuming no magic weapons or other bonuses.

Comparatively a shadow monk would have to either get a feat, multiclass or be a high elf to even get long bow proficiency and even if it did it could only do (1d8+5)+1d8+5)=Avg 18 and on top of this the kensei has a +3 to attack and can turn 1 miss into a hit making their damage far more consistent, not to mention that they have better melee damage and survivability.

My point here isn't that shadow monks are bad, quite the contrary, they're amazing at what they do, but they are not good ranged fighters or damage dealers, the kensei is better in both of these regards and that is what they are supposed to do.

[stoutstien]

It's the only subclass that gets a way of increasing their armor at low lvs which is nice. It's a very middle ground Monk subclass.
If you want to play samurai Jack it's the way to go.

[Daghoulish]

Okay, I'm at my laptop now so I can explain myself more clearly;

A level 17 kensei with a longbow and +5 dex can, in a round; attack twice with the longbow, using sharpen the blade to add +3 to both attacks (1d8+5+3)+(1d8+5+3)= Avg 24, use deft strike to add 1d10 for Avg 29 damage and then use kensei shot for an extra 1d4 using their bonus action for an average damage of 31 per turn, assuming no magic weapons or other bonuses.

Comparatively a shadow monk would have to either get a feat, multiclass or be a high elf to even get long bow proficiency and even if it did it could only do (1d8+5)+1d8+5)=Avg 18 and on top of this the kensei has a +3 to attack and can turn 1 miss into a hit making their damage far more consistent, not to mention that they have better melee damage and survivability.

My point here isn't that shadow monks are bad, quite the contrary, they're amazing at what they do, but they are not good ranged fighters or damage dealers, the kensei is better in both of these regards and that is what they are supposed to do.

Wouldn't the Kensei's longbow be dealing 1d10 damage per strike? Kensei weapons are monk weapons and you can use your martial arts die for their damage right?

[MightyDuck]

Wouldn't the Kensei's longbow be dealing 1d10 damage per strike? Kensei weapons are monk weapons and you can use your martial arts die for their damage right?

Thats true, nice catch xD that makes it 33 damage on average.

[MightyDuck]

What do you mean by this? Shadow Monks don't need to use longbows in melee, they can just use regular quarterstaffs and monk attacks.

The whole issue is that Kensais don't really have good features to enhance ranged damage. Hooray, you can spend your bonus action to add +d4 damage to one arrow per turn, and you can spend a ki point to add another +d6 (d8 at level 11, d10 at level 15). Getting to shoot magical arrows is kind of nice against weapon-resistant beasts is kind of nice, but aside from that, the best Kensai damage-enhancing feature is Sharpen the Blade at level 11, but it's pretty pretty meh: as a bonus action, spend up to 3 ki to add +3 to hit on your two arrows per turn. You don't have enough Extra Attacks to make that bonus exciting.

You said it yourself: Kensai archers are not damage power houses compared to Fighters/etc. They're not even that good compared to other monks unless you change the rules. (I therefore advocate changing the rules so that Shadow Monk = sneaky monk, Long Death = unkillable monk, Kensai = hard-hitting monk instead of <pointless> monk.)

Level 17 shadow monk can do; (1d10+5)+(1d10+5)=20+20(Flurry of blows)= 40 avg dmg per turn

Level 17 Kensei monk can do;(1d10+5+3)+(1d10+5+3)=26+1d10(deft strike)=36+20(flurry of blows)=56 avg dmg per turn or they can swap out 1 of their first two attacks for an unarmed attack and do 53 dmg and get +2 AC. This is all assuming that the monk doesn't have a magic weapon. So the kensei can do 56 dmg in melee, has better defensive measures and can just switch to ranged damage on the fly, which is pretty good and gives a lot of combat versitility.

[Man_Over_Game]

Okay, I'm at my laptop now so I can explain myself more clearly;

A level 17 kensei with a longbow and +5 dex can, in a round; attack twice with the longbow, using sharpen the blade to add +3 to both attacks (1d8+5+3)+(1d8+5+3)= Avg 24, use deft strike to add 1d10 for Avg 29 damage and then use kensei shot for an extra 1d4 using their bonus action for an average damage of 31 per turn, assuming no magic weapons or other bonuses.

Comparatively a shadow monk would have to either get a feat, multiclass or be a high elf to even get long bow proficiency and even if it did it could only do (1d8+5)+1d8+5)=Avg 18 and on top of this the kensei has a +3 to attack and can turn 1 miss into a hit making their damage far more consistent, not to mention that they have better melee damage and survivability.

My point here isn't that shadow monks are bad, quite the contrary, they're amazing at what they do, but they are not good ranged fighters or damage dealers, the kensei is better in both of these regards and that is what they are supposed to do.

This is a valid point. The Kensei, beyond any other monk, is designed to be adaptable. It's not the best melee combatant. It's not the best archer. It is, however, great at being able to choose what it needs to do. The Shadow Monk has plenty of utility and mobility, and it's versatile in its own way, but I think the Kensei is a little more consistent.

As far as numbers go, the Kensei already has access to better weapons, effectively treating its normal melee attacks with +1 damage, or with Reach in the case of the Whip. In the case of the Shortbow/Longbow, you're doubling the range and increasing the damage by +1.

So it effectively comes down to this:

Melee Combat: +1 damage or -2 damage/+2 AC
Ranged Combat: + 1 damage per attack, +2.5 damage per round.

In comparison, the Sun Soul would deal 5 + 2xMod damage at 30 feet, where the Kensei would deal 7 + 2xMod damage at 150 feet.

For some, that might not be enough, but it's definitely not the worst Monk subclass.

[MaxWilson]

Wouldn't the Kensei's longbow be dealing 1d10 damage per strike? Kensei weapons are monk weapons and you can use your martial arts die for their damage right?

Your best bet at high levels is probably to take Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter so that you've got three attacks per round with an almost-guaranteed fourth (since at least one of the three attacks will probably miss). It's still not great compared to a real archer, but at least you're leveraging the whole Kensai weapon thing by doing d10 with your hand crossbow bolts instead of only d6. With a one-level dip in Fighter you will even have pretty good accuracy.

But that's 18 levels of investment before you are clearly outperforming what the Fighter is doing at-will around level 6, and even then you're just about on par with his level 11 performance. You're doubling down on something monks are relatively bad (DPR) at instead of finding a unique niche that leverages your strengths (mobility and surprise and control).

If you enjoy it, more power to you, but at a strict RAW table I'd go for a Shadow Monk or Long Death Monk or even an Elemonk (because Fireball spam) over a Kensai. YMMV.


For some, that might not be enough, but it's definitely not the worst Monk subclass.

Yeah, the Sun Soul is the worst.

[strangebloke]

Traditionally monks are comparable to rogues: Relatively high damage, super high mobility, relatively low AC and poor defenses at low levels. The best in-combat monk subclasses traditionally play into this.

An open hand monk might attack with a spear, flurry, knock the enemy back or knock them prone, then retreat.
A drunk monk might attack with a spear, flurry and then leave without taking an OA.

A shadow monk, which is great for reasons other than combat, might attack with a spear, step of the wind, then retreat.

The Kensei punches, triggers agile parry, then uses patient defense.

What this allows the Kensei to do is hold the line in a way that other monks really can't. If you're fighting against, say, a mess of hobgoblins, a Kensei using the strat I propose takesway less damage than a drunk monk using the same strategy.

Hobgob hit chance vs. 18 AC with disadv: 9%
Hobgob hit chance vs. 16 AC with disadv: 16%

Obviously I'm cherrypicking a bit there, but the point remains that trading ~2 damage per turn for 2 AC is generally a really good trade, and as the monk levels up that trad-off eventually becomes meaningless.

AC stacking isn't a good strat at mid-to-high levels unless you can stack it really high, and fortunately the Kensei is equipped to do just that. With Bracers of Defense you can get up to ~21 AC by somewhere near the end of the game, with disadvantage. That's pretty decent!

They're also just good at dealing damage, but that's a topic for another time.

[MrStabby]

I Kensai are poor... not because they are underpowered but they are just under-fun. Ok so fun is subjective but that aside...

Other monks get to do more STUFF. Sure you might "Sharpen the blade", but then what? Take the attack action and use the core monk abilities that any other monk would. Or you can attack, but with other weapons... like you know any other martial class.

Where is the thing that is cool like shadow-step or making people afraid of you? When you look back at the thing you did with the character, what will stand out? What will set it apart from other warriors mechanically? Where is the stand out ability like quivering palm?

Now some people are happy with this - which is fine, but if you are considering playing one make sure you think it is going to be fun for a long time.

[Dankus Memakus]

I Kensai are poor... not because they are underpowered but they are just under-fun. Ok so fun is subjective but that aside...

Other monks get to do more STUFF. Sure you might "Sharpen the blade", but then what? Take the attack action and use the core monk abilities that any other monk would. Or you can attack, but with other weapons... like you know any other martial class.

Where is the thing that is cool like shadow-step or making people afraid of you? When you look back at the thing you did with the character, what will stand out? What will set it apart from other warriors mechanically? Where is the stand out ability like quivering palm?

Now some people are happy with this - which is fine, but if you are considering playing one make sure you think it is going to be fun for a long time.

Since i just played a champion im not too worried about that haha

[GlenSmash!]

Yes this is true. I guess your right. I just really like the concept of an unarmored swordsman and i wish it had a better ability.

I also loved the concept of the unarmored swordman.

So I play barbarians :smallbiggrin:

[Citan]

So i had a character concept of a dwarf kensai monk. My idea is that he was like a more western monk, kind of like a friar who carries a longsword and a bow. However, upon reading into it, due to the wording of agile parry there seems to be a popular opinion that kensai is bad since you must forgo your kensai weapon. Is this correct?
Hi!

IMO this opinion, whether popular or not, is insanely and sadly wrong.
Kensei is a very good, and strong archetype, that among other things...
- completely put aside the usual struggle for balance between "close enough to make attacks" and "far enough to survive" at low level.
- gives you "magical weapon" at a level where actual magic weapons will still be very rare for quite some levels, making loot split easier in a party with several martials.
- gives you a bonus to AC nearly for free since it's part of the one Attack you'll use most of the time.
- makes you (at higher level) the overall most reliable Monk (even if other archetypes can be still much better provided some specific conditions are met).

If you want to be a pure Monk, this archetype is like the Champion for Fighter: tactical mistakes or plain ignorances are usually less costly, it's in general easy to play that guy efficiently.
And you can easily switch focus between melee, mid-range, long range, full offense/mobility, balanced or full defense.

If you want to be a gish, this archetype (attributes requirement to multiclass some casters apart ^^) is probably the best: you get to still function fully as a Monk on your Attack action (especially with the +3 bonus), while getting a reliable use on bonus action with whatever spell you fancy (Hunter's Mark, Heat Metal, Hex, Spiritual Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Healing Words, Healing Spirit, Bigby's Hand, etc)...

Or simply multiclass into Cleric to be an extreme tank (since, on purpose of not, 100% of this archetype's features work while wearing armor, as long as you don't pick also a heavy weapon): I can assure you that 18-20-22 AC (armor+shield or Unarmored with maxing stats and possibly Agile), using Attack or Booming Blade on action and Dodge as bonus action while keeping a Spirit Guardians will make enemies fear you. :)


The main drawback people hang against it, from my point of view, is precisely that it provides no "Monkishy" feature. No spell like 4E, no "empower the iconic Flurry" like OH or DM, no fancy "I was there I'm here you didnt see me move" Shadow, just "I hit and avoid better than anyone else.

If you don't mind this apparent simplicity, then it will be a great fit.
If you'd like to really play "like a Monk should do" (all about mobility, using Flurry and spam Stunning Strike with fists/legs, or using special tactic provided by your archetype) then better pick another one.


Bear in mind also that the Kensai will look strongest at 5th level when he's making four sword attacks in a round while the fighter is only making two or three (four or five when Action Surging). By level 11, the Fighter is making six or seven attacks when action surging and the Kensai is still capped at four, and by level 20 the Fighter is making eight, nine, or ten when action surging and the Kensai is still making only four. (And the fighter is less MAD and has more ASIs, so he will have more cool feats like Sentinel and Defensive Duelist.) If my games stopped at level 7ish I guess maybe I'd see fewer Fighters and more Barbarians/Kensai monks/etc.

BTW, non-GWM fighters are already crowded out by Sharpshooter/GWM fighters. Not to say that I don't see sword-and-shield fighters, but usually only for specific reasons, like that Healer Prodigy (Athletics) Heavy Armor Master Purple Dragon scholar-knight who judo'ed demons into submission so the rest of the party could wail on them at advantage. Anyone who really wants to be doing damage instead of tanking is going to go either Sharpshooter or GWM already, so that's what the Kensai would be competing with.
Do you realize how biaised -and as such, completely useless- your comparison is?

The fighter is making those heavy attacks only when Action Surging. Meaning ONCE per SHORT REST.
At level 11 any Monk...
- has enough AC and Evasion to afford frontlining.
- has a self-action that greatly reduces the risk to become a dangerous liability when targeted by some spells (whereas Fighter is extremely exposed).
- has enough Ki to sustain 2 attempts per encounter at least if following guidelines, which in turn mean advantage for everyone (himself included).
Over the same round, the actual contribution to party will be at the very least equal, if not in favor of Monk.
In addition to that, Kensei monk can boost its accuracy and damage by 15% for the next minute. While it only affects its weapon, it's still enough to offset the variance in actual attacks connecting between Fighter and Monk in 3-4 rounds.

At level 20, while the Fighter is indeed making 8 attacks, TWICE per short rest, the Monk can spend a whole turn (worst case, because nothing prevents doing that just before starting a fight if party can get jump on enemey) buffing himself to then gain +3 and advantage on all attacks (except highest level enemies), resistance to all attacks, in addition to everything it gained before: proficiency in everything (so no need for a Resilient), abilitiy to reroll for a Ki (much better than Indomitable), ability to end any charmed

So... Sure, for a short fight, after a short rest, Fighter will strongly outperform Monk. Of course he should. It's his schtick, dealing pure damage.
But the mobility, resilience against damage, resilience against effects, ability to understand all languages, ability to sustain stun attempts make Monk far enough amazing to outperform Fighters whenever you can start a fight with at least half resources available.

I'm starting wonder if you actually even tried to play a Monk as a proper Monk instead of trying to stack Fighter mindset upon it? XD


Yes this is true. I guess your right. I just really like the concept of an unarmored swordsman and i wish it had a better ability.
This is actually a serious deal. If all you want is being a good dueling swordsman with Unarmored, then Kensei Monk is a decent choice for a various handful of reasons (mainly, extra ability, Unarmored, Dodge as bonus action, "naturally magic" weapon, and becoming a true powerhouse of resilience and adaptability at higher level.

But you could also simply pick one level of Monk or Barbarian (or even a race providing Unarmored) then go Fighter / Ranger / Rogue depending on how you view your weapon using.

Of course, nothing prevents you to mix and match every of those (and more), picking for example 2 levels of Monk for Unarmored, bonus speed and 2*Dodge as bonus action per short rest, 1 level of Forge Cleric for the sake of having some Bless or emergency Shield of Faith/Sanctuary and your magic weapon right off the bat, two-three levels of Rogue for that free speed/disengage, then Samurai Fighter to aim for the 3*attacks per attack.

[CorporateSlave]

... a popular opinion that kensai is bad since you must forgo your kensai weapon. Is this correct?

I'd say this point at least is incorrect. You are not forgoing the kensei weapon. You are using it as a shield instead of a weapon for that turn. Some people get super hung up on missing out on a slightly higher damage die and don't seem to be able to key on the concept that the point of Agile Parry is that to a Kensei, a weapon can also be used as a shield.

I guess its up to the player if this feels worth it or not, but to say you are "not using" the weapon when you are using it...for +2AC, is to me at least, patently ridiculous.

[Misterwhisper]

Hi!

IMO this opinion, whether popular or not, is insanely and sadly wrong.
Kensei is a very good, and strong archetype, that among other things...
- completely put aside the usual struggle for balance between "close enough to make attacks" and "far enough to survive" at low level.
- give you "magical weapon" at a level where actual magic weapons will still be very rare for quite some levels, making loot split easier in a party with several martials.
- gives you a bonus to AC nearly for free since it's part of the one Attack you'll use most of the time.
- makes you (at higher level) the overall most reliable Monk (even if other archetypes can be still much better provided some specific conditions are met).
.

Most of that is completely wrong.

1. There is no such thing as an issue with “close enough to make stacks” and “far enough to survive.

Every monk is proficient with a short bow.
Every monk gets step of the wind.
Subclasses like open hand or drunken master are much better at mobility.

2. Gives you a magical weapon at level 6.

Every monk can do the same thing, at the same level, with an unarmed strike.

3. Gives you essentially free ac because it is part of the one attack you would use anyway.

This one is completely wrong.
The ac is only given If you attack unarmed as part of the attack action. Not martial arts bonus action and not flurry of blows.

This means that while every monk can pick up a spear or quarterstaff to do a 1d8, you have to give up all your kensei weapon attacks at level 3 and 4 or half of them from level 5 on to get that 2 ac. That means for most of the game it is a damage loss, and if you are high enough level it is not a damage loss, then it doesn’t matter if you are using the weapon anyway.

4. Most reliable at level 17.

It only works on monk weapons not unarmed strikes so at most two chances to use it at all per turn, one only once if you are getting the 2 ac. Your martial arts unarmed strike or flurry doesn’t get the benefit.



The subclass is easy to fix.

A. Give the party bonus if you make an unarmed strike on your turn not your attack action.

And/Or

B. Let them pick unarmed strike as a kensei weapon.

[Cybren]

It’s not a hang up- it’s what the game system is asking you to do, and how you do it. Kensei get an AC bonus for holding their weapon, not using it, within the rules. Sure, the actual narrative thing that’s happening is that they’re using the weapon to defend themselves, but the only active choice the player has is to _not use_ the weapon to attack. That’s what makes it unfun.

[MaxWilson]

While we're on the subject of defensive bonuses for monks, let me throw in a plug for Alert on a Shadow Monk. Not only does it boost your initiative but it also turns your Darkness into the equivalent of free Dodge + Disengage, since neither you nor your attackers can see each other but you don't grant advantage to unseen attackers because you're Alert!

This means that a Shadow Monk can make three or four attacks per round while still being pretty tanky (as tanky as AC 16ish permits, anyway), whereas any other monk would have to blow a bonus action on Patient Defense instead, which means no martial arts or Flurry of Blows for you.

Because Darkness has a reasonably long duration (ten minutes) it can even be precast before a fight.

[MightyDuck]

Most of that is completely wrong.

1. There is no such thing as an issue with “close enough to make stacks” and “far enough to survive.

Every monk is proficient with a short bow.
Every monk gets step of the wind.
Subclasses like open hand or drunken master are much better at mobility.

2. Gives you a magical weapon at level 6.

Every monk can do the same thing, at the same level, with an unarmed strike.

3. Gives you essentially free ac because it is part of the one attack you would use anyway.

This one is completely wrong.
The ac is only given If you attack unarmed as part of the attack action. Not martial arts bonus action and not flurry of blows.

This means that while every monk can pick up a spear or quarterstaff to do a 1d8, you have to give up all your kensei weapon attacks at level 3 and 4 or half of them from level 5 on to get that 2 ac. That means for most of the game it is a damage loss, and if you are high enough level it is not a damage boost, then it doesn’t matter if you are using the weapon anyway.

4. Most reliable at level 17.

It only works on monk weapons not unarmed strikes so at most two chances to use it at all per turn, one only once if you are getting the 2 ac. Your martial arts unarmed strike or flurry doesn’t get the benefit.



The subclass is easy to fix.

A. Give the party bonus if you make an unarmed strike on your turn not your attack action.

And/Or

B. Let them pick unarmed strike as a kensei weapon.

Several things here;

1. yes all monks are proficient with a short bow, but short bows are worse than long bows in both range and damage and kensei shot, deft strike and sharpen the blade makes kensei far more effective at range.

2. You say this like its a bad thing, this feature is literally just there to keep the kensei competitive with its weapons, sure all monks can do magic unarmed attacks but not all monks can use weapons. Kensei do consistently more damage than other monk archetypes and this feature allows them to do it without fear of resistance.

3. First of all the post you are replying too said that the AC boost was nearly free since you are just sacrificing a larger damage die which isn't wrong and when you get extra attack in just 2 levels time it's much less of a cost. Second, wording it like you have to sacrifice your attack to use the feature is just negative, its veraitile, you can chose to forgo some damage to use your weapon as shield for a round, it opens up options and gives you more choices in combat.

4. You aren't going to be flurrying every round so those two attacks are gonna be the bulk or entirely of your turn especially with sharpen the blade and deft strike giving you more reason to go for damage over AC, its still a good feature and works with your ranged attacks as well so it's still a solid boost to consistency.

Honestly the kensei is pretty solid, it's not spectacular but a lot of the criticisms of it aren't really warranged, it's a hard hitting, veraitile subclass that gives the monk a good ranged option.

[Citan]

Most of that is completely wrong.

1. There is no such thing as an issue with “close enough to make stacks” and “far enough to survive.

Every monk is proficient with a short bow.
Every monk gets step of the wind.
Subclasses like open hand or drunken master are much better at mobility.

2. Gives you a magical weapon at level 6.

Every monk can do the same thing, at the same level, with an unarmed strike.

3. Gives you essentially free ac because it is part of the one attack you would use anyway.

This one is completely wrong.
The ac is only given If you attack unarmed as part of the attack action. Not martial arts bonus action and not flurry of blows.

This means that while every monk can pick up a spear or quarterstaff to do a 1d8, you have to give up all your kensei weapon attacks at level 3 and 4 or half of them from level 5 on to get that 2 ac. That means for most of the game it is a damage loss, and if you are high enough level it is not a damage loss, then it doesn’t matter if you are using the weapon anyway.

4. Most reliable at level 17.

It only works on monk weapons not unarmed strikes so at most two chances to use it at all per turn, one only once if you are getting the 2 ac. Your martial arts unarmed strike or flurry doesn’t get the benefit.



The subclass is easy to fix.

A. Give the party bonus if you make an unarmed strike on your turn not your attack action.

And/Or

B. Let them pick unarmed strike as a kensei weapon.
Sady for you, most of that is completely right.

1. Yeah, true, Monks are proficient with shortbows I tend to forget about that.
However, Step of the Wind is a non-argument, considering how adamant people are about here on making unarmed attacks. Plus it costs a Ki, which is a short supply, that you also want to sustain archetype abilities in addition to Flurry of Blow.
In that deparment, Sun Soul is actually the best at low level in keeping the best balance between offense and "defense through avoidance" ("ranged close-range radiant Flurry of Blows"), with 4E mid-level (Fangs of Fire Snake, later Fly) and Kensei best at high level (longbow + possibly Sharpshooter).
And no, Drunken and OH are not better at mobility. They have tools to help Disengage from close range, but overall their effective range is lesser.
Of course, if you usually fight in close spaces extra range wont matter. YMMV.
But even in close range, while every other archetype needs to rely on tactic or feature, Kensei can use a whip to attack without any risk of OA, for free.


2. Yeah, and?
Again, you completely miss the point. You should really think through.
Unarmed is 5 feet reach, except if you're a 4E (bonus point here). SHadow sometimes can circumvent this limitation.
Only Kensei can make magic strikes from 5-150 feet away (reach weapons, throwable weapons, slings, darts, and of course bows).
Whether having magic attacks is important or not at that level is irrelevant: if not important for you, then it's the whole Monk feature that is wasted here, Kensei or not.
Also, Kensei is the only one that can now make Stunning Strike, 2 times per round, at 10 feet reach, for free (while incidentally 4E is the only one that can make as much as 4 attempts at 15 reach if you don't care about blowing all Ki in one go).
Drunken Master is the only one that can compare but it requires him to use Flurry of Blows, which may not always be ideal (if you want to keep away from potential OA, it means that you are fighting a dangerous enemy: having to choose between either "attack+disengage" or "dash" may be a troublesome choice depending on how much speed you have left after your action).
But Kensei is yet again the only one that can setup OA with a 10 feet radius by choosing a whip (making it especially deadly with Sentinel).
Unless of course other Monks decide to use a Monk that deprives them of Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense and Extra Speed. I'm, strangely, kinda dubious on the chance of that happening unless specific multiclass.

3. Yeah, and?
What the hell are you gonna do with your action, if not Attack, *as a freaking Monk*?
ESPECIALLY when that so loved Flurry of Blows DEPENDS on Attack?
When you really need big defense, no doubt, you'll use Dodge as bonus action (which still means, incidentlly, that the +2 now becomes ~+4).
Otherwise? When in melee, you'll use your Attack action, making a "melee weapon" attack, an unarmed attack, then chain with unarmed attacks. Before level 5 it's sacrificing an average 2 damage, at higher level it's sacrificing nothing.
ONLY 4E (spells) and Long Death (Fear) have useful things to do with their action past their first turn. Shadow has a set-up spell he may want to cast, but otherwise nothing either.

4. Yeah, and?
I never said otherwise, it's still frigging amazing to have such an ability when you are fighting creatures that have largely over 20 AC and can hit 22 AC equally reliably: only the Monk can stand a decent chance at close range for such a low cost in resources, Barbarians aside thanks to unlimited rage which offsets the otherwise lack of defense -of course, Paladins using capstones, Valor Bards using Magic Secret spells can come reasonably close but they need to spend a big chunk of their resources on that).
And Kensei pushes that precisely thanks to the fact boosts affects weapon and not unarmed, meaning more incitation to use Ki on Dodge/Dash in tough fights (let's be coherent, at level close to 20, if you feel you can hit reliably with your unarmed attacks, it usually means you don't fight very dangerous creatures so why would you spend Ki on buffing in the first place?)
And, yet again, since there is no reason you won't use your weapon for OA (or Hasted action, or Ready action, or whatever else) this bonus has several occasions to apply in other turns too.

Your post just proves you don't understand anything about Kensei's interest.
Which is honestly a non-problem, to each his own taste. Just don't pretend an archetype is bad when you never tried to play it to its forte.

[Misterwhisper]

Sady for you, most of that is completely right.

1. Yeah, true, Monks are proficient with shortbows I tend to forget about that.
However, Step of the Wind is a non-argument, considering how adamant people are about here on making unarmed attacks. Plus it costs a Ki, which is a short supply, that you also want to sustain archetype abilities in addition to Flurry of Blow.
In that deparment, Sun Soul is actually the best at low level in keeping the best balance between offense and "defense through avoidance" ("ranged close-range radiant Flurry of Blows"), with 4E mid-level (Fangs of Fire Snake, later Fly) and Kensei best at high level (longbow + possibly Sharpshooter).
And no, Drunken and OH are not better at mobility. They have tools to help Disengage from close range, but overall their effective range is lesser.
Of course, if you usually fight in close spaces extra range wont matter. YMMV.

2. Yeah, and?
Again, you completely miss the point. You should really think through.
Unarmed is 5 feet reach, except if you're a 4E (bonus point here). SHadow sometimes can circumvent this limitation.
Only Kensei can make magic strikes from 5-150 feet away (reach weapons, throwable weapons, slings, darts, and of course bows).
Whether having magic attacks is important or not at that level is irrelevant: if not important for you, then it's the whole Monk feature that is wasted here, Kensei or not.

3. Yeah, and?
What the hell are you gonna do with your action, if not Attack, *as a freaking Monk*?
ESPECIALLY when that so loved Flurry of Blows DEPENDS on Attack?
When you really need big defense, no doubt, you'll use Dodge as bonus action (which still means, incidentlly, that the +2 now becomes ~+4).
Otherwise? When in melee, you'll use your Attack action, making a "melee weapon" attack, an unarmed attack, then chain with unarmed attacks. Before level 5 it's sacrificing an average 2 damage, at higher level it's sacrificing nothing.
ONLY 4E (spells) and Long Death (Fear) have useful things to do with their action past their first turn. Shadow has a set-up spell he may want to cast, but otherwise nothing either.

4. Yeah, and?
I never said otherwise, it's still frigging amazing to have such an ability when you are fighting creatures that have largely over 20 AC and can hit 22 AC equally reliably: only the Monk can stand a decent chance at close range for such a low cost in resources, Barbarians aside thanks to unlimited rage which offsets the otherwise lack of defense -of course, Paladins using capstones, Valor Bards using Magic Secret spells can come reasonably close but they need to spend a big chunk of their resources on that).
And Kensei pushes that precisely thanks to the fact boosts affects weapon and not unarmed, meaning more incitation to use Ki on Dodge/Dash in tough fights (let's be coherent, at level close to 20, if you feel you can hit reliably with your unarmed attacks, it usually means you don't fight very dangerous creatures so why would you spend Ki on buffing in the first place?)

Your post just proves you don't understand anything about Kensei's interest.
Which is honestly a non-problem, to each his own taste. Just don't pretend an archetype is bad when you never tried to play it to its forte.

Are you still not getting that agile parry does not activate from martial arts or flurry?

What do most monks do?

Attack with a monk weapon, or if you are a kensei attack with a kensei weapon.

At low levels I have never once seen a monk attack unarmed for a d4 damage when they have the option of 1d8 spear/quarterstaff.

When they get to the point that martial arts damage dice catch up to 1d8, they have magic weapons which for unarmed is VERY hard to get a +1/2/3 on.

A monks main bonus for melee is the ability to not be there when the enemy gets a turn.

Open hand and drunken master get a great bonus for this.
Kensei get a new weapon to use, but then not use it so they can get 2 ac for attacks they should not be taking.

[MaxWilson]

However, Step of the Wind is a non-argument, considering how adamant people are about here on making unarmed attacks. Plus it costs a Ki, which is a short supply, that you also want to sustain archetype abilities in addition to Flurry of Blow.

People here aren't opposed to making unarmed attacks. They're weirded out by the thought of playing a weapon-oriented monk whose key selling point at low levels is the fact that he specializes in a weapon specifically so he can ignore it and make unarmed attacks.


Also, Kensei is the only one that can now make Stunning Strike, 2 times per round, at 10 feet reach, for free (while incidentally 4E is the only one that can make as much as 4 attempts at 15 reach if you don't care about blowing all Ki in one go).
Drunken Master is the only one that can compare but it requires him to use Flurry of Blows, which may not always be ideal (if you want to keep away from potential OA, it means that you are fighting a dangerous enemy: having to choose between either "attack+disengage" or "dash" may be a troublesome choice depending on how much speed you have left after your action).

Shadow Monk does effectively the same thing too, via precast Darkness, only it's better than a reach attack because it also gets you out of melee if the enemy is already only 5' away from you. And if the Shadow Monk is Alert it also imposes disadvantage on enemy attacks against you.

[Pex]

No it's not bad. You use Agile Parry when you need it, not use it forever just because you have it. It's for flexibility when you need the AC for a round for whatever reason. When you get Extra Attack you can still use your kensei weapon for one of the attacks. It's nice when a class feature gets used all the time, but it's not required for a class feature to be used all the time or else you're The Suck. Don't worry about it.

If it helps think of it this way. Monks can spend a Ki point to Dodge as a bonus action. If they're Dodging then at that moment they want to be defensive. It's important enough not to have used that bonus action to make an unarmed strike or use Flurry of Blows for that same Ki point. With Agile Parry you get the Dodge benefit and your AC is 2 higher.

[strangebloke]

I understand the complaints that the kensei feels unfun to play. I really do. But WHY do people think that its weak? This forum is typically tripping over itself to comment on the utility of having a ranged weapon attack, or the utility of being able to use different types of weapons, or the ability to adapt your playstyle to different enemies, or the ability to push your accuracy arbitrarily high. The kensei does all of that extremely well, but for some reason people are determined to act like its hot garbage.

Like, okay, lets just think about those strengths for a bit.

Flying Enemy: By default, a monk has to switch to a shortbow here and it attacking for a piddly (1d6+5)*2=17 no matter what level they're at. By comparison, the Kensei gets scaling damage bonuses at each tier, going all the way up to (1d8 + 5 + 1d4 + 3)*2=30 at level 11. That's no investment other than just... having the subclass and dropping 3 ki points. Your range and accuracy are way better too. With a level of fighter and the sharpshooter feat you can turn that 30 damage a round into 50 damage a round, once again, using no more ki points than just the three for sharpen the blade and taking (effectively) no accuracy penalty. This is way beyond anything any other monk can do at range. That's before you get unerring accuracy, of course.

Different Weapon Types: So the Drunk Monk is good because it can disengage for free, right? What if I told you that a whip is a viable kensei weapon? Congrats, you're the Drunk Monk now, except a little better in some ways and a little worse than in others. Party found a magic blowgun? You can pick up blowgun as a kensei weapon at level 6 and deal martial arts damage at range, modified by kensei shot. Monks typically have a pretty crappy pool of magic weapons. Unless your DM is deliberately throwing magic spears and shortswords at you, the Kensei is the only monk that's going to have good options.

Oh, and unlike other monks, if you don't even find a magic weapon, you can still hit for your full damage each round. No need to switch to fists when the demons show up at level 6.

Adaptive Fighting: Want to tank? With Agile Parry and Patient defense, you're pretty much the hardest thing to hit in the game. People salivate over the EK and his magic shield... you can hit 27 effective AC without any magic items, and also have advantage on DEX saves while you're doing it, and also having proficiency in all saves. High level Kensei with bracers of armor and patient defense is the closest dang thing to being untouchable in this game.

Seriously, an ancient red dragon will only hit an 16th level Kensei 50% times it attacks, will only deal damage with its breath attack 50% of the time, and its frightful presence won't do anything 50% of the time. The Kensei can hit him in return 67% of the time. That's without bless, a nearby paladin, or any magic items beyond bracers of armor. Yes, every monk can do this to some extent, but your AC starts out and caps out 2 higher than everyone else's, and that's a big difference when stacked on top of disadvantage. That Ancient Red will hit any other monk about 130% as often as it hits a Kensei.

Want to fight at range? See above. You're better than any other monk by default, and if you spec into it at all, you're better than everyone who isn't an Fighter, Ranger, or Valor Bard.

Want to skirmish? Pull out a whip and kite away! You're better there than everyone who isn't a drunk monk or an open hand monk.

Want to DPR in melee? Once again, by default you're better than every other monk in the game except for a full-nova 4e monk or a high level drunken monk who gets a perfect setup. Yes, yes, open hand can deal *infinite* damage, we all know. That's not very reliable.

Want to control the battlefield? Oh, look, you have your whip out and now you can get opportunity attacks over a wider area than anyone else. You're probably still not better here than the Open Hand monk or the Long Death Monk, but 3rd place ain't bad. Arguably the 4e monk is better, but... ew, 4e monk.

TL;DR: The Kensei isn't the strongest monk in the game, but they're incredibly strong in combat compared with every other monk subclass, and shouldn't be avoided because you feel that they're 'weak.' They're a little odd and nonintuitive in some ways, but as a subclass they're very solid.

[jaappleton]

Kensei is fine.... in a low / no magic game. In something like Dark Sun, where its my understanding that finding magical gear is such a rarity that you're more likely to win the lottery, Kensei would be awesome.

Otherwise? Sorry, its a hard pass from me. For a variety of reasons. It doesn't really flow well, it seems like they merged Zen Archer into Kensei (HUGE mistake, IMO), and its just... It just pales compared to some sweet stuff the others can do.

[Shuruke]

I'm currently playing a spear kensei monk 4 bard 6 college of swords and I love it.

You don't always have to weave unarmed strikes in its just another defense tool and makes it so if you really don't wanna get hit u do one attack one spin kick bonus action 1 Ki to dodge now u have +2 a.c. and they have disadvantage to hit u.

Tbh my favorite thing is that the bonus action add a d4 damage is ranged attacks so occasionally I get a fun combo of bonus action add d4 damage throw spear draw Back up spear and do a lean on spear kick.

Itd be fun to see a dart kensei monk or a hand axe thrower.

My end build is gonna be monk 4 fighter 3 Battle master bard 13.

It was a little slow going but once I got 5 in bard it feels great
My inspiration comes back on short rest and my sweeping attack martial adept does to.

I can't say if a straight monk is any good for kensei but I would like to think that their 6 and 11th features look good I just personally plan on getting Tenser transformation as my 20th level cap even if I only use it for the final fight. XD .

Right now I feel like I have a lot of options between haste extra action
My 2 attacks
1 bonus action attack 2 if I use ki
Dodge as bonus action

Its nice to go from having 16 a.c. (only plus to wis ) to 18 by weaving a unarmed strike. That with haste makes my a.c. 20 and if needed can use bonus action dodge but generally its not needed ^.^


Kensei might not be the strongest but it does fill a empty spot that wasn't already their for monk

A monk that can weave unarmed strikes and weapon attacks for different combinations.

Attacking with your long sword well make one attack two handed then use bonus action to gain 1d4 on ranged attack and throw a dart. (At dis advantage but still)

Swarmed make one unarmed strike one two handed strike to increase a.c if needed dodge or for fun flurry.

I just like that even when out of KI the kensei monk will still feel good. Open palm when out of KI no longer kicks people around like a bad ass.

4 element when out of KI is just a monk

Shadow monk gets nice options without KI but that's 6 levels in.

Idk bout the others but atleast for xanathar the monks in their still get to be their archetype when out of KI even at 3rd level.

Is it the best no

Is it optimal probably not

Is it fun and enjoyable I say so

[MaxWilson]

Adaptive Fighting: Want to tank? With Agile Parry and Patient defense, you're pretty much the hardest thing to hit in the game. People salivate over the EK and his magic shield... you can hit 27 effective AC without any magic items, and also have advantage on DEX saves while you're doing it, and also having proficiency in all saves.

Er, sorry, no. You might have an 8th level Kensei with Dex 18 and Wis 18 and AC 18 (20 with Agile Parry) who makes two attacks and spends his bonus action on Patient Defense... but the equivalent EK has Mage Armor and Dex 20 and a shield for AC 20 (even without taking Defense fighting style) and access to Shield and Absorb Elements and Blur (or just Darkness + Alert with his extra ASI for a similar effect without needing a non-evocation/abjuration spell pick) and more HP than you've got and Second Wind. He's way more untouchable than you are.

If you're counting Patient defense as effective +5 AC, which isn't exactly correct, then the EK is hitting effective AC 30 long before you even finish maxing out Dex and Wis. (And this isn't even a tanky EK! It's a generalist build without Defense style.)

Another variation I've seen which is also tankier than your Kensei is the Fighter with HAM, Prodigy (Athletics), and Defense style, using grapple+prone to lock down specific big enemies.

[strangebloke]

Kensei is fine.... in a low / no magic game. In something like Dark Sun, where its my understanding that finding magical gear is such a rarity that you're more likely to win the lottery, Kensei would be awesome.

Otherwise? Sorry, its a hard pass from me. For a variety of reasons. It doesn't really flow well, it seems like they merged Zen Archer into Kensei (HUGE mistake, IMO), and its just... It just pales compared to some sweet stuff the others can do.

What specific area do you feel that they're lacking in?

I'm not trying to trap you, I'm genuinely curious. Most people levy these very general complaints, and I don't know what they're talking about.

[jaappleton]

What specific area do you feel that they're lacking in?

I'm not trying to trap you, I'm genuinely curious. Most people levy these very general complaints, and I don't know what they're talking about.

Nothing about it is exciting.

You can do this quasi-Smite by adding another martial arts die to your damage. Is that EVER worth the Ki point, as opposed to... using it for Stunning Strike or Patient Defense or the litany of other things you can do with Ki?

It rely solely on you not encountering magical weapons. Oh, that +2 longsword you found? Yeah, half your features do nothing to it.

Its also simply too broad in what it wants to do. In older editions, there were Kensei. Sword Saints. These people were just bosses with their weapons, they wrecked with 'em. Melee weapons only. Then there were Zen Archery. Ranged specialists.

This 5E Kensei tries to merge them and its just.... nowhere near as good as either of them.

[strangebloke]

Nothing about it is exciting.

You can do this quasi-Smite by adding another martial arts die to your damage. Is that EVER worth the Ki point, as opposed to... using it for Stunning Strike or Patient Defense or the litany of other things you can do with Ki?

It rely solely on you not encountering magical weapons. Oh, that +2 longsword you found? Yeah, half your features do nothing to it.

Its also simply too broad in what it wants to do. In older editions, there were Kensei. Sword Saints. These people were just bosses with their weapons, they wrecked with 'em. Melee weapons only. Then there were Zen Archery. Ranged specialists.

This 5E Kensei tries to merge them and its just.... nowhere near as good as either of them.

So you're saying that there's thematic issues, rather than mechanical ones?

I'll gladly assent that its wonky. Getting a weapon and then not using it for five levels is pretty bleh.

[jaappleton]

So you're saying that there's thematic issues, rather than mechanical ones?

I'll gladly assent that its wonky. Getting a weapon and then not using it for five levels is pretty bleh.

Its both. When are you ever gonna use the quasi-smite ability? When? Its terrible. Its limited to once per turn, to add insult to the non-injury you'll be inflicting.

[strangebloke]

Er, sorry, no. You might have an 8th level Kensei with Dex 18 and Wis 18 and AC 18 (20 with Agile Parry) who makes two attacks and spends his bonus action on Patient Defense... but the equivalent EK has Mage Armor and Dex 20 and a shield for AC 20 (even without taking Defense fighting style) and access to Shield and Absorb Elements and Blur (or just Darkness + Alert with his extra ASI for a similar effect without needing a non-evocation/abjuration spell pick) and more HP than you've got and Second Wind. He's way more untouchable than you are.

If you're counting Patient defense as effective +5 AC, which isn't exactly correct, then the EK is hitting effective AC 30 long before you even finish maxing out Dex and Wis. (And this isn't even a tanky EK! It's a generalist build without Defense style.)

Another variation I've seen which is also tankier than your Kensei is the Fighter with HAM, Prodigy (Athletics), and Defense style, using grapple+prone to lock down specific big enemies.
clearly the hardest thing to hit is a wizard who has just cast time stop

I was admittedly being hyperbolic. The EK is very much the build to beat as far as AC tankiness goes.

I meant to say, more, that a high-level Kensei has a very efficient, very comprehensive defensive suite. While it does take a while to come fully online, a high level kensei can maintain very high AC and saves for pretty much every round of combat in an entire day without needing any prep, without sacrificing their action, and without even neglecting other aspects of the character (like mobility, having excellent ranged options, etc.) Obviously this is true of most monks to some extent, but Kenseis are more or less the tankiest monks in the game. (Long Death is harder to kill, probably, but there are drawbacks to that kind of playstyle.)

As to your specific EK, who has the benefits of Absorb Elements and Shield and Blur and is dodging... sure, he's ridiculously tanky. Good job. It's probably even more 'untouchable' than my build. But he's more vulnerable to other lines of attack and he can't maintain a high level of tankiness for numerous encounter throughout a day, and he's also not doing anything.

Not trying to say its a bad build, or that its overspecialized or anything. I will say that white-room discussions always favor casters of any stripe.


Its both. When are you ever gonna use the quasi-smite ability? When? Its terrible. Its limited to once per turn, to add insult to the non-injury you'll be inflicting.

When you crit, or if you've got ki points to spare. Your damage as a kensei is already better than any other monk. If you know that you're in the last encounter of the day, it makes you that much more the designated-dpr-monk.

...It admittedly isn't very good, but then, most monks don't get much at level 6. Like... sheesh, the drunken monk gets to stand up from being prone quickly and to redirect 1 attack for a ki point. The kensei is a little bit weaker than that at sixth level, but its not like they're worlds apart or anything.

[Malifice]

So i had a character concept of a dwarf kensai monk. My idea is that he was like a more western monk, kind of like a friar who carries a longsword and a bow. However, upon reading into it, due to the wording of agile parry there seems to be a popular opinion that kensai is bad since you must forgo your kensai weapon. Is this correct?

No. it's not correct.

To gain the benefit of agile parry, you only have to forgoe 1 attack made with the Attack action (and instead make an unarmed attack),

From 5th level onwards you can make 1 weapon attack, 1 unarmed attack (plus flurry/ martial arts) and still gain the benefit of the ability.

You dont have to use the ability. Its a 'deal slightly less damage per round in exchange for a higher AC' ability.

[MightyDuck]

Er, sorry, no. You might have an 8th level Kensei with Dex 18 and Wis 18 and AC 18 (20 with Agile Parry) who makes two attacks and spends his bonus action on Patient Defense... but the equivalent EK has Mage Armor and Dex 20 and a shield for AC 20 (even without taking Defense fighting style) and access to Shield and Absorb Elements and Blur (or just Darkness + Alert with his extra ASI for a similar effect without needing a non-evocation/abjuration spell pick) and more HP than you've got and Second Wind. He's way more untouchable than you are.

If you're counting Patient defense as effective +5 AC, which isn't exactly correct, then the EK is hitting effective AC 30 long before you even finish maxing out Dex and Wis. (And this isn't even a tanky EK! It's a generalist build without Defense style.)

Another variation I've seen which is also tankier than your Kensei is the Fighter with HAM, Prodigy (Athletics), and Defense style, using grapple+prone to lock down specific big enemies.

I'm sorry but while this build is great in theory it just flat out doesn't work in practice. First of all, this build requires you to not wear armor for mage armor to work, so you better hope the enemy doesn't have dispell magic or an anti-magic field, also to not waste a turn in combat you would have to always have mage armor active since you aren't always going to know when you are about to get into a fight, so you could be burning a few spell slots on this throughout the day. Slightly less circumstantial, is that you cannot cast spells with both a shield and weapon in your hand, so you have to either drop your weapon or your shield to cast spells, otherwise you are forced to take warcaster for this build to be viable. Just for the sake of argument, lets say you have warcaster, so the shield is a non-issue (unless you want to cast a spell with material components), your effective AC will be 20 or 21 with the defence fighting style, a kensei with maxed out dex and wis will still be able to beat you, with agile parry they can get up to an AC of 22, with the added benefit of not needing a feat and being able to two hand their weapon and make bonus action attacks. A kensei can also use their bonus action and 1 ki point to dodge, where as it would take an EKs whole action to either dodge or cast blur and since blur is concentration and takes one of your few spellslots this isn't great. Honestly, the only time you'll be better than a kensei is when you cast shield, which you can only do 5 times per long rest, so have fun casting nothing but shield.

[Shuruke]

Idk I like the 6th level feature from an archer perspective

Longbow is d8(4.5) at 6th level you have a d6 martial art dice (3.5 ) and as a bonus action can add d4 (2.5)

Sure one ki might not feel worth 3.5 but considering the one KI for flurry of blow still has chances to miss where as the martial art dice is after u know u hit.

I feel like this might make a champion 4 dip to get archery style and if E lven take E lven accuracy very strong cuz then on a crit you can spend 1 ki for 2 dice.

Me I'm just happy with
1d8+1d6+1d4+dex and an attack of 1d8+dex

The 3.5 and 2.5 make for 7 average damage which is almost a sharpshooter without lowering to hit. Once u get D8 monk dice its 8 average damage and you can add sharpshooter onto it if you wish for 1d8+1d4+1d6+dex+10
While still having benefits of being a monk
By time you get that at 6th level even if u only use 1/3 of your ki that's 6 uses an average adventuring day
A ranged monk could use it 2/3 of time for 12 uses which I think is cool.

A level 6 rogue has 3d6 sneak attack with longbow is 1d8+3d6+mod+10 (25+mod) compared to monk (20.5 +mod spending one ki and another attack for 14.5+mod)
Without sharp shooter (15+mod) compared to. (10.5+mod+4.5+mod)
Without ki spent (7+mod+4.5+mod)

Even without spending ki if a monk hits with both attacks and has a +3 mod their only .5 behind a rogue with +3 mod.
Sure the rogue could be assassin rogue and get occasional crit opening but in the end not factoring to hit% etc their pretty similar in average damage.
The monk doesnt need advantage or an ally near the target either which is also helpful.

Is it as good as a action surge fighter
No.
But that doesnt mean it's terrible

[MaxWilson]

I'm sorry but while this build is great in theory it just flat out doesn't work in practice. First of all, this build requires you to not wear armor for mage armor to work, so you better hope the enemy doesn't have dispell magic or an anti-magic field, also to not waste a turn in combat you would have to always have mage armor active since you aren't always going to know when you are about to get into a fight, so you could be burning a few spell slots on this throughout the day.

You've got the meaning of "in theory" and "in practice" mixed up. In theory, you might not have Mage Armor up when a fight starts, and in theory an anti-magic field could mess you up to the tune of -3 AC. In practice this isn't an issue in 99% of adventures any more than it's an issue for armored PCs to have to remove their armor to take a bath.


Slightly less circumstantial, is that you cannot cast spells with both a shield and weapon in your hand, so you have to either drop your weapon or your shield to cast spells, otherwise you are forced to take warcaster for this build to be viable.

If you're planning on casting Shield, you don't need a weapon in hand. All Warcaster does is let you delay the decision between Shield and opportunity attacks, but in practice you usually know in advance which one you're saving your reaction for. You aren't "forced" to take Warcaster at all.


Just for the sake of argument, lets say you have warcaster, so the shield is a non-issue (unless you want to cast a spell with material components), your effective AC will be 20 or 21 with the defence fighting style

Er, no, at that point your effective AC is 30 or 31. AC 21 + Shield-as-needed + disadvantage to enemies. (It's not really correct to think of disadvantage as +5 AC, but you did it first for the Kensei so I'm just following suit.)


a kensei with maxed out dex and wis will still be able to beat you

Only because you underestimated the EK's AC by 10 points. In reality the Kensei's AC is 3-4 points lower, and the Kensei doesn't max out his Dex and Wis nearly as early as the EK maxes out his Dex. A level 8 EK has a better effective AC than a typical level 16 (!) Kensei.


with agile parry they can get up to an AC of 22, with the added benefit of not needing a feat and being able to two hand their weapon and make bonus action attacks.

If you're making bonus action attacks then you're not using Patient Defense. You spent a subclass instead of a feat (and the Fighter has extra feats), and you have to win initiative and have enemies in melee range in order for it to work.


A kensei can also use their bonus action and 1 ki point to dodge, where as it would take an EKs whole action to either dodge or cast blur and since blur is concentration and takes one of your few spellslots this isn't great. Honestly, the only time you'll be better than a kensei is when you cast shield, which you can only do 5 times per long rest, so have fun casting nothing but shield.

EK: more HP, better AC, higher DPR, more feats, better action economy. A good old Alert Sharpshooter EK can specialize in archery and still be tankier than the Kensei. There are legitimate reasons to play a monk instead of a fighter but you're kidding yourself if you think that tanking is one of them.

[Malifice]

Er, sorry, no. You might have an 8th level Kensei with Dex 18 and Wis 18 and AC 18 (20 with Agile Parry) who makes two attacks and spends his bonus action on Patient Defense... but the equivalent EK has Mage Armor and Dex 20 and a shield for AC 20 (even without taking Defense fighting style)

Good thing he hasnt taken Defence Fighting style, seeing as it only grant +1 AC when you wear armor, and he isnt wearing any.


and access to Shield and Absorb Elements and Blur

Schroedingers Eldritch Knight? At 8th level he has 6 slots (4/2) per long rest. One of them has been spammed on Mage Armor leaving him 5 for the rest of the day.

How many times per long rest can he cast shield exactly? Five... presuming he uses his slots for absolutely nothing else.

With 2.5 short rests per long rest the expected median average, our Monk has 28 Ki points per long rest to spend on stuff like Patient defense.

He has at will Evasion, Stillness of Mind, and Deflect Missiles vs ranged attacks also.

He's also a few levels away from tons of immunities, proficiency in all saves (with a re-roll attached) and more.

[MaxWilson]

With 2.5 short rests per long rest the expected median average, our Monk has 28 Ki points per long rest to spend on stuff like Patient defense.

What a... nonstandard assumption. Even WotC only recommends a 2:1 ratio, not 2.5:1.

[Pex]

I don't care if kensei monk is the absolute best or not in anything. I only care when I play it I'm effective and doing cool things. I am. Hooray for whichever class can get a couple of more points of damage or higher AC. I'm doing my thing despite you.

Don't worry about being the best. If you are, great, but that's not a requirement. Be effective.

[CorporateSlave]

Getting a weapon and then not using it for five levels is pretty bleh.


People here aren't opposed to making unarmed attacks. They're weirded out by the thought of playing a weapon-oriented monk whose key selling point at low levels is the fact that he specializes in a weapon specifically so he can ignore it and make unarmed attacks.

I'll stop saying this when people stop saying things like the above.

You ARE using it. You're using it as a shield.

Maybe it helps to picture it "in game world"? When the Orc swings at the Monk, only to have what would have been a killing blow (i.e., would have hit the Monk's base AC) deflected at the last moment by the sword (i.e. misses because of the Agile Parry +2 AC), I'll bet the first thought through the Orc's head isn't "hah, look at that stupid monk not using his sword for anything."

If the only way for you to have fun is to have your character stab things with their weapon, then by all means, avoid the Kensei, because one of their key features involves using the weapon for something else.

If you think getting a couple points more on one attack is always worth more than +2 AC ever is, then by all means, avoid the Kensei, because the only way to get that + 2 AC from Agile Parry is to use the weapon to deflect instead of attack.

But for The Love Of Pete, you can stop saying the sub-class gives you a weapon that you don't use.

If you really believe that's true, that you're not using the weapon (despite 100% of the evidence being to the contrary - you have to have it in hand, you have to perform an Unarmed Strike as part of an Attack action, and the wording of the feature saying you are using the weapon to defend yourself with), let me ask you about a magical +3 Defender blade. Surely the same situation yes? It is bad bad bad because it gives you a +3 to hit and damage, but then expects you to not use it (if you want the +3 to AC instead). You miss out on a couple points of damage for some extra AC.

Wait...That's for the whole turn, not just one attack! Losing out on both the to hit AND damage bonuses, for ALL attacks that turn! What a piece of garbage, throw it into the Hellmouth and begone with it forever! I'll hang on to my Olde Reliable +1 Longsword...so much better, it always gives me a bonus to damage, just as a weapon always should! ALWAYS. SHOULD.

Or in that case do you not care since although the mechanical effect is the same (actually, worse with the Defender since it removes your bonus not just from damage, and not just from one attack), you still get to stab with it?

There are plenty of fair criticisms of the Kensei for the haters to dwell on, stick to those.

[Snowbluff]

I don't know what anyone is complaining about. +2 AC is pretty great and it doesn't take any ki points or anything. That alone makes it my fallback option when considering 5 levels of monk for a build. It's like 25% more EHP over other monks.

[CorporateSlave]

There are legitimate reasons to play a monk instead of a fighter but you're kidding yourself if you think that optimized tanking is one of them.

Fixed it for you.

I certainly won't try to sell anyone that the Kensei monk will ever be as optimized a tank as certain other classes or builds, such as EK. But they make reasonably decent tanks for sure, at early levels in particular. My own Kensei reliably fended off entire flanks of enemies (surrounded by 4-5 melee adds, or a large monster) many times, using Agile Parry and Patient Defense, allowing the rest of the party to focus fire their flank, then turn around and finish off the one the monk was holding off. Several times, and never went down (often didn't take a hit). Haven't done the math, but done so often it became a tactic the party relied on.

+2 AC, +5 AC (effective, as the maths go), & "crit insurance" makes for decent tanking. Maybe not optimized, but serviceable and effective - I would argue an above average second tier tank for when you need two, or the primary goes down. It is certainly a reason to play a monk, if not the best or only reason.

[strangebloke]

Oh lovely, Max has derailed discussion with his quantum EK again. I should have known better than to mention it in a thread he was posting in.

Look,MaxWilson, the EK is a great tank, you know this, I know this, we all know this.

But your white-room evaluations of it are patently ridiculous. If the EK casts blur beforehand, if they have slots for shield, if they only take either elemental damage or attacks in a given round, if they are only targeted by damage... and even then its still not a completely favorable comparison.

Like lets look at level 8.

Kensei/Monk Advantages:

patient defense is a more plentiful resource than the EK's spell slots. Assuming that they get 2 short rests to every long they'll have 24 ki per long rest. So a third of their resources means that they'll have 8 rounds of defense, to the EK's total 6 spell slots.
Evasion is straight better than absorb elements in most every circumstance. Most elemental damage requires DEX saves, and DEX saves also cover a lot more than elemental damage. The natural synergy with dodge here means that you'll normally take no damage. Evasion requires neither a reaction nor a resource.
Buffs like Blur require setup time and concentration, both of which can be a liability some of the time. Granted that an EK is probably never dropping concentration, but it can happen. Blur specifically doesn't do anything against foes with blindsense, which is starting to be a problem at eighth level.
Wisdom focus vs. Int focus is generally better for both skills and saves. (perception vs. a stealthy enemy is more common than investigation vs. an illusion)
Deflect Arrows will usually be available for ~13 damage reduction every time it comes up. Its not a wow ability, but it is an edge. To my mind this and the overall HP difference tend to cancel each other out over a long day.
The fighter can't benefit from their whole kit on any given round. Shield and absorb elements compete for a reaction.


Fighter Advantages

At level 8 the fighter has one more ASI. Unfortunately, in order to stay competitive with AC, you need a shield, and to hold a shield and cast shield, you need Warcaster. (unless we're considering a silly character who isn't holding a weapon for some reason.) Still, having the option to pick up resilient is good.
Shield and blur are very efficient spells that synergize heavily with each other. Either of them provides a defensive bonus comparable to patient defense WRT AC, but their net is greater than the sum of their parts.
Shield is available on the first turn if you lose initiative, whereas agile parry and patient defense are not. TBH this is not really that big of a bonus since 1 round of combat doesn't make a match, but its there.
1-2 more HP per level, plus second Wind for some extra HP gain.
Free bonus action if you have a racial ability that's defensive (like the goblin's watered-down cunning action.)


Other
Both have 20 AC at level 8. The fighter either needs mage armor or Defense style to achieve this, but those features do not. The Fighter can get 21 if they get plate and defense style, but there's a lot of defensive drawbacks to having low Dex. At lower levels, they'll... still be comparable, and at higher levels the monk will have higher resourceless AC.

Higher levels also see the monk's defensive kit getting more completely rounded out, particularly with diamond soul at level 14. The fighter gets feats, which can be directed at saves, initiative, perception, stealth, athletics/acrobatics etc. all of which I would consider to be broadly 'defensive in nature. They also get more spells known and more spells to spare which makes them a little more rounded out.

Verdict:
The monk, at eighth level, is less capable against physical attacks both on the first round of combat,(shield on first round) and in later rounds (blur+shield). Over the course of a day the monk is less likely to run out of resources, but the fighter might still get hit less, due to how efficient blur and shield are.

The monk is more resilient to other lines of attack, being faster and having better saves. (yes I know the EK can get longstrider, but expending resources to break even isn't particularly impressive.)

Overall, they're close to comparable. The EK has more build resources to commit (fighting style, extra feat, spell selection) but does have to commit most of those resources purely to defense to keep up (Defense style, warcaster, 3/6 to 4/6 spells known).

TL;DRThis thread is about the Kensei and I think this post amply shows how good they are defensively. Being in the same weightclass as an EK, one of the most resilient characters in the game, is a heck of an honorific. Don't underestimate +2 AC on a monk. It's a big deal.

[Malifice]

What a... nonstandard assumption. Even WotC only recommends a 2:1 ratio, not 2.5:1.

You'e right. I've always assumed it was 2-3 per long rest.

Wonder where I got that from? Im sure I read it somewhere.

[strangebloke]

You'e right. I've always assumed it was 2-3 per long rest.

Wonder where I got that from? Im sure I read it somewhere.

Short rest abilities are assumed to be refreshed 2-3 times for every one time a long rest ability refreshes. But short rest abilities refresh on long rests too, so to get that ratio you need 1-2 short rests between each long rest.

So an eighth level monk has (2-3)*ki per long rest, not (3-4)*ki per long rest.

Though TBH I totally give four short rests per long, so ymmv.

[Malifice]

Short rest abilities are assumed to be refreshed 2-3 times for every one time a long rest ability refreshes. But short rest abilities refresh on long rests too, so to get that ratio you need 1-2 short rests between each long rest.

So an eighth level monk has (2-3)*ki per long rest, not (3-4)*ki per long rest.

Though TBH I totally give four short rests per long, so ymmv.

The DMG is explicit that the average adventuring day is 2 short rests per long rest.

Page 84. Under the 'Short rests' header.

[strangebloke]

The DMG is explicit that the average adventuring day is 2 short rests per long rest.

Page 84. Under the 'Short rests' header.

Right.

2 short rests to 1 long rest.

a 2:1 ratio gives you 3*level ki, which is 24 ki at 8th level.

You assumed:

2.5 short rests to 1 long rest

a 2.5:1 ratio gives you 3.5*level ki, which is how you got 28 ki at 8th level.

There's no reason to round up since most tables have way less than a 2:1 ratio anyway. At my table its more like 4.5:1 but that's another story.

[Malifice]

Right.

2 short rests to 1 long rest.

a 2:1 ratio gives you 3*level ki, which is 24 ki at 8th level.

You assumed:

2.5 short rests to 1 long rest

a 2.5:1 ratio gives you 3.5*level ki, which is how you got 28 ki at 8th level.

There's no reason to round up since most tables have way less than a 2:1 ratio anyway. At my table its more like 4.5:1 but that's another story.

I acknowledged I ****ed that up earlier.

I assumed it was 2-3 per long rest (rounded to 2.5). Its 2 per long rest.

[strangebloke]

I acknowledged I ****ed that up earlier.

I assumed it was 2-3 per long rest (rounded to 2.5). Its 2 per long rest.

Ah, fair, I see what you were going for.

[Malifice]

Ah, fair, I see what you were going for.

Ive literally been assuming 2-3 SR per LR for ages now. Wrongly.

Any idea where I got that from?

Im sure I read it somewhere.

[MightyDuck]

Ive literally been assuming 2-3 SR per LR for ages now. Wrongly.

Any idea where I got that from?

Im sure I read it somewhere.

It's literally the first thing that pops up when you search for average short rests per long rest.

[Blood of Gaea]

Kensei probably makes the best archer Monks, unless I'm missing something. And they can still easily handle themselves in melee with their normal Monk abilities, and some decent options like +2 AC.

[Pex]

The DMG is explicit that the average adventuring day is 2 short rests per long rest.

Page 84. Under the 'Short rests' header.


Right.

2 short rests to 1 long rest.

a 2:1 ratio gives you 3*level ki, which is 24 ki at 8th level.

You assumed:

2.5 short rests to 1 long rest

a 2.5:1 ratio gives you 3.5*level ki, which is how you got 28 ki at 8th level.

There's no reason to round up since most tables have way less than a 2:1 ratio anyway. At my table its more like 4.5:1 but that's another story.


I acknowledged I ****ed that up earlier.

I assumed it was 2-3 per long rest (rounded to 2.5). Its 2 per long rest.


Ive literally been assuming 2-3 SR per LR for ages now. Wrongly.

Any idea where I got that from?

Im sure I read it somewhere.


It's literally the first thing that pops up when you search for average short rests per long rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ROhf5Soqs

[MaxWilson]

Oh lovely, Max has derailed discussion with his quantum EK again. I should have known better than to mention it in a thread he was posting in.

Look,MaxWilson, the EK is a great tank, you know this, I know this, we all know this.

But your white-room evaluations of it are patently ridiculous.

I want you to know that this was so rude I stopped reading. I don't mind people with different opinions, but I won't engage with rudeness.

You are mistaken, sir.

[MightyDuck]

I want you to know that this was so rude I stopped reading. I don't mind people with different opinions, but I won't engage with rudeness.

You are mistaken, sir.

They definitely could have phrased their comment better but I genuinely don't think they were trying to be hurtful or rude at least not directed at you specifically. I think they were venting their frustration at the numerous people who spam their builds across the forum, even when not relevant, I'm new to the forum but I've already encountered a fair few of said people and it tends to derail the entire thread (the most notible of these is the sorcerer King, which you have probably seen pop up). I'm not saying you are one of these people, but if you've talked about the same build in multiple threads then it is somewhat understandable why people might interpret it that way. Just don't take it personally and try not to talk about the same thing too often, having a build that you like is fine but make sure it's relevant and necessary to the thread, otherwise people are going to get justifyably mad.

[Phoenix042]

In my games, magic items with a +x bonus are either rare or non-existent.

Therefore, sharpen the blade is an incredibly strong feature with a fairly steep cost and some strong use limits, but that temporarily gives the user an attack bonus that surpasses the archery fighting style and a damage bonus better than dueling.

In fact if you break down the change to DPR while using it against most targets, it's actually stronger than SS or GWM for the attacks it applies to.

This is not to say that it turns monks into damage dealing powerhouses, but if you compare that to the 11th level features of other monk subclasses in the context of a game without too many +x weapons, it's a strong feature.

The other features are all about giving the player flexibility round to round, and even attack to attack.

It's perfectly possible to attack with your longbow, fell a distant target, then move in and hit another with flurry of blows. Being such a mobile archer, scrimisher, and even possibly reach attacker (with a whip), makes kensai monks an interesting option. Personally I think they're underrated by the community.

[Blood of Gaea]

You can also use Sharpen the Blade on someone else's weapon, so long as it's a Monk weapon for you.

[MightyDuck]

You can also use Sharpen the Blade on someone else's weapon, so long as it's a Monk weapon for you.

Im not sure if this works, the feature specifies that you can touch 1 kensei weapon, as far as I know kensei weapons are only kensei weapons while you're wielding them, in the same way that monk weapons aren't monk weapons for other classes, both monk and kensei weapons have their own unique attributes and mechanic that only apply when you're wielding them.

[CircuitEngie]

You can also use Sharpen the Blade on someone else's weapon, so long as it's a Monk weapon for you.

While you could, they wouldn't see the benefit. Sharpen the Blade only works for the attack rolls of the monk that activates it.

"...grant one kensei weapon yout ouch a bonus to attack and damage rolls when *you* attack with it." (emphasis mine)

[MightyDuck]

I'm just gonna do some raw damage comparisons of all the monk subclasses at different levels, just to give an idea of the kensei's average dpr and how it compares to other monk archetypes in both melee and range. For expediencies sake I'm just going to give the monk a +5 dex and will be assuming that there are no magic items/weapons involved for simplicity's sake, I'll also be using the mean result of the dice for the average since that makes calculations easier

Melee damage

Base Monk/Open Hand/Shadow/Sun Soul (none add anything to the base monks damage output so I'm lumping them together)
3rd level: (1d4+5)+(1d4+5)*2= 22.5 - With quarterstaff: (1d8+5)+(1d4+5)*2=24.5
6th level: (1d6+5)*2+(1d6+5)*2= 34 With quarterstaff: (1d8+5)*2+(1d6+5)*2= 36
11th level: (1d8+5)*2+(1d8+5)*2= 38
17th level: (1d10+5)*2+(1d10+5)*2= 42
This is assuming that they use both their attacks and then flurry of blows.

Drunken master (same as the previous until level 17)
17th level: (1d10+5)*2+(1d10+5)*5= 73.5 (spread out over 5 enemies)

Four elements (I'm assuming that the monk is using fangs of the fire snake on every hit if it has the ki points)
3rd level: (1d4+5)+1d10+(1d4+5)+1d10+(1d4+5)=33.5 (out of ki points)
6th level: (1d6+5)+1d10+(1d6+5)+1d10+(1d6+5)+1d10+(1d6+5)+1d1 0= 56 (1 ki point left)
11th level: (1d8+5)+1d10+(1d8+5)+1d10+(1d8+5)+1d10+(1d8+5)+1d1 0= 60 (6 ki points left)
17th level: (1d10+5)+1d10+(1d10+5)+1d10+(1d10+5)+1d10+(1d10+5) +1d10= 64 (12 ki points left)
Decent nova for an extortionate price, you do also get 10ft reach on all attacks which is nice.

Kensei monk (assuming longsword, always using deft strike and having already sharpen the blade prepared)
3rd level: (1d10+5)+(1d4+5)*2=25.5
6th level: (1d10+5)+1d6+(1d10+5)+(1d6+5)*2= 41.5
11th level: (1d10+5+3)+1d8+(1d10+5+3)+(1d8+5)*2= 50.5
17th level: (1d10+5+3)+1d10+(1d10+5+3)+(1d10+5)*2= 53.5
The damage goes down by about 1-4 if you decide to use agile parry for the +2 AC

Ranged damage

Literally every monk subclass except sun soul, 4 elements and kensei (assuming they're using shortbow since thats literally all they get)
levels 1-4: 1d6+5= 8
All levels above 5: (1d6+5)*2= 16
Range is also capped at 30/320 compared to the longbows 150/600

Four elements (I'm not counting AoE since that would get way too complicated, just fist of unbroken air)
Base FoUA: 3*5.5= 16.5
Damage increases by 5.5 for every ki point over the initial 2 spent and has both knock back and knock prone, only 30ft range though
max damage at level 17: 16.5+(5.5*15)= 99 (all ki points spent)

Sun soul (again, no AoE)
3rd level: (1d4+5)+(1d4+5)*2= 22.5 -
6th level: (1d6+5)*2+(1d6+5)*2= 34
11th level: (1d8+5)*2+(1d8+5)*2= 38
17th level: (1d10+5)*2+(1d10+5)*2= 42
Only a 30ft range and assuming flurry blows

Kensei (assuming longbow, using kensei shot, deft blow and having sharpen the blade prepared)
3rd level: (1d8+5)+1d4= 12
6th level: (1d8+5+1d4+1d6)+(1d8+5+1d4)= 27.5
11th level: (1d8+5+3+1d4+1d8)+(1d8+5+3+1d4)= 34.5
17th level: (1d10+5+3+1d4+1d10)+(1d10+5+3+1d4)= 37.5
150/600ft range, less damage than sun soul but a lot more consistent at level 11 and above

Do with this data what you will and feel free to correct me if i did something wrong.

[MaxWilson]

Base Monk/Open Hand/Shadow/Sun Soul (none add anything to the base monks damage output so I'm lumping them together)
3rd level: (1d4+5)+(1d4+5)*2= 22.5 - With quarterstaff: (1d8+5)+(1d4+5)*2=24.5
6th level: (1d6+5)*2+(1d6+5)*2= 34 With quarterstaff: (1d8+5)*2+(1d6+5)*2= 36
11th level: (1d8+5)*2+(1d8+5)*2= 38
17th level: (1d10+5)*2+(1d10+5)*2= 42
This is assuming that they use both their attacks and then flurry of blows.

You're overlooking Shadow Monk's Opportunist reaction attack at 17th level, which bumps it to 52.5 when applicable.

[MightyDuck]

You're overlooking Shadow Monk's Opportunist reaction attack at 17th level, which bumps it to 52.5 when applicable.

you're not wrong, I just left it out because I was only looking at average per round damage and opportunist is pretty circumstantial. Still, good catch!