A party of all fighter?

[Teaguethebean]

I am starting a game where we will all have to be human fighters so far the party contains: A brute (based around tanking), arcane archer, weapon master (homebrew I don't know much about but I know he is taking the healer feat), monster hunter, and then me an Eldritch knight.
I plan on getting ritual caster at lv 1 because human and we need as much casting as we can get. Do you have any recommendations for spells that are musts please tell me your ideas.

[MaxWilson]

Depending on how your DM does magic items, Magic Weapon might be a must-have spell.

Also, definitely make sure at least half the fighters in the party have strong ranged attacks.

RE: Ritual Caster, if you pick Wizard as the ritual casting class, Phantom Steed and Leomund's Tiny Hut are must-haves, although of course you have to find them in play as treasure or buy them from friendly wizards, and Unseen Servant is pretty good both in and out of combat. If you pick Cleric, Augury and Divination are must-haves.

[SirGraystone]

Cantrip : Minor Illusion and either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade (You only need one)
Level 1 : Shield, Absorb Elements and Protection from Evil and Good

[stoutstien]

The good news is you'll have asi/ feats for days.
As someone stated someone needs to grab ritual casterand then if somebody grabs the healer feat, inspiring leader, magic initiate, and maybe sulker if you don't want to rely on familiar for scouting. Now you can probably face any challenge.

[RSP]

Cantrip : Minor Illusion and either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade (You only need one)
Level 1 : Shield, Absorb Elements and Protection from Evil and Good

I’d actually suggest not taking GFB or BB, unless you know you’ll mostly be playing in the 7-10 range for the majority of the campaign. With the limited casting an all-fighter party will have, you could get much better mileage out of other cantrips (unless someone’s using a Feat, I think you’re the only one who will have any). Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Light or Dancing Lights (you won’t have Darkvision), Prestidigitation, a ranged attack possibly, Mold Earth, Blade Ward (if wanting to Tank like a Barb, particularly after attaining level 7).

The little damage boost to a group that’s already very combat heavy, in exchange for one of your very limited opportunities for versatility and out-of-combat usefulness, doesn’t balance out.

Just my opinion.

[MaxWilson]

I’d actually suggest not taking GFB or BB, unless you know you’ll mostly be playing in the 7-10 range for the majority of the campaign. With the limited casting an all-fighter party will have, you could get much better mileage out of other cantrips (unless someone’s using a Feat, I think you’re the only one who will have any). Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Light or Dancing Lights (you won’t have Darkvision), Prestidigitation, a ranged attack possibly, Mold Earth, Blade Ward (if wanting to Tank like a Barb, particularly after attaining level 7).

The little damage boost to a group that’s already very combat heavy, in exchange for one of your very limited opportunities for versatility and out-of-combat usefulness, doesn’t balance out.

Just my opinion.

Against enemies resistant to normal weapons it can be a rather large damage boost, not just a small one. A Dex 16 5th level EK vs. a Gargoyle does 4.43 DPR if he's Attacking with a rapier, but 10.99 DPR with Booming Blade if he can ensure that the Gargoyle must move (e.g. by leveraging the Mobile feat). With Fire Bolt and Int 12 he'd have 6.05 DPR, which isn't terrible, but you can still see the value of a good melee cantrip there.

[Man_Over_Game]

With the severe lack of healing, I'd really recommend every single person in your Party get some kind of support/healing feat. Have one guy with Charisma to use Inspiring Leader while everyone else uses Healer.

Consider feats like Durable or Dwarvish Fortitude as methods to sustain yourself throughout the day.

Ask your DM what feats are available, as the Greater Dragonmark feats do have an option that comes with Mass Healing Word and Greater Restoration. It's in the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron.

[MaxWilson]

With the severe lack of healing, I'd really recommend every single person in your Party get some kind of support/healing feat. Have one guy with Charisma to use Inspiring Leader while everyone else uses Healer.

More than one Healer is kind of a waste. "As an action, you can spend one use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature’s maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can’t regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest." No exception is made for multiple healers.

But you've got four tanky, high-damage PCs. Death-by-HP-loss-during-combat probably isn't going to be an issue except against very large hordes. Special monster gimmicks like Mind Flayer mind blasts + grapple stunning, or Beholder petrification-via-failed-Dex-save, or ghost possession or Spawn of Kyuss infestation, are more likely to be the party's Achilles' Heel. If everyone takes the Lucky feat that will help a lot but I would still expect occasional fatalities.


Ask your DM what feats are available, as the Greater Dragonmark feats do have an option that comes with Mass Healing Word and Greater Restoration. It's in the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron.

Yeah, Greater Restoration could be pretty crucial. If there's a way to get it, either via feats or with cash or via alliances with NPC organizations like the White Temple, take advantage of it.

[RSP]

Against enemies resistant to normal weapons it can be a rather large damage boost, not just a small one. A Dex 16 5th level EK vs. a Gargoyle does 4.43 DPR if he's Attacking with a rapier, but 10.99 DPR with Booming Blade if he can ensure that the Gargoyle must move (e.g. by leveraging the Mobile feat). With Fire Bolt and Int 12 he'd have 6.05 DPR, which isn't terrible, but you can still see the value of a good melee cantrip there.

First, why is the fighter’s Dex 16 if he didn’t use a feat on Mobile (as the BB version apparently does)? Also, does your 4.43 DPR factor in both attacks or just one?

Further, if the game is “you’re all fighters” and then the DM puts S/B/P resistant monsters all over the place, without providing magic weapons, and you use a feat to try and get them to move, and the enemy doesn’t have a ranged attack or one of your fellow fighter party mates in range, you get a little more damage in those encounters, until you hit level 5.

So, yeah, I guess factor that into the equation.

[opaopajr]

Who's got the Thieves' Tools? :smalleek:


I’d actually suggest not taking GFB or BB, unless you know you’ll mostly be playing in the 7-10 range for the majority of the campaign. With the limited casting an all-fighter party will have, you could get much better mileage out of other cantrips (unless someone’s using a Feat, I think you’re the only one who will have any). Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Light or Dancing Lights (you won’t have Darkvision), Prestidigitation, a ranged attack possibly, Mold Earth, Blade Ward (if wanting to Tank like a Barb, particularly after attaining level 7).


Seconded. Way more bang for the buck on utility spells.

Speaking of which Longstrider or Featherfall are great 1st spells for your "outside abj. & evoc. schools" spells. I favor Longstrider because that has no Conc. and really speeds up the tanks to run all over the place -- for an hour. And it's worth upcasting!

Ritual Casting is like a must have for this party. Alarm, Comp Language, Detect Magic, Leomunds Tiny Hut, etc. So much party utility -- and can easily fit into party Short Rests.

:smallcool: So much kill power, the rest is like a fun vacation of play options!

[MaxWilson]

First, why is the fighter’s Dex 16 if he didn’t use a feat on Mobile (as the BB version apparently does)? Also, does your 4.43 DPR factor in both attacks or just one?

Both attacks.

His Dex is 16 because I had to choose something, and IME it's usually better to choose feats before ASIs. Good candidates here include Sharpshooter, Mobile, Prodigy, Alert, Lucky, etc. If you want to recalculate with Dex 18 instead, be my guest--it won't change the point.


Further, if the game is “you’re all fighters” and then the DM puts S/B/P resistant monsters all over the place, without providing magic weapons, and you use a feat to try and get them to move, and the enemy doesn’t have a ranged attack or one of your fellow fighter party mates in range, you get a little more damage in those encounters, until you hit level 5.

So, yeah, I guess factor that into the equation.

What does this part in bold mean? It's not like the advantage of Booming Blade goes away at level 5. It's especially weird because you're responding to an example about level 5 fighters in which it's clearly shown that Booming Blade is about twice as much damage as the Attack action.

[SkipSandwich]

Healing is pretty much covered between Second Wind, Potions and at least one PC with the Healer feat (having a 2nd is just for redundancy in case the primary medic goes down), with High HP and AC (because Fighter) you shouldnt need more than that and Rests.

As an EK, I would second the notion to take utility cantrips like Mold Earth and Dancing Lights before damaging ones. You have martial ranged weapons that deal equal or greater damage from level 1-4 anyway, and War Magic doesn't kick in til 7th.

As Fighters, every player should have either a brace of javalins or at least 14 dex and a crossbow/longbow for when closing to melee is impractical. You have ALL the weapon proficiencies, use em!

Remember that tools like caltrops and burning oil exist, with only 1 EK, spell slots will be at a premium so the more the rest of the party can contribute even minor cc the better.

Other than that your a party of FIGHTERS, all it takes is one round of sync'd Action Surges to utterly OBLITERATE most monsters.

If I had to design am all fighter party i might go with the following;

1 Champion with the TWF style and feat, maximum attacks for maximun crit fishing, also its nice to have at least two people with high dex and stealth proficiency

1 Battlemaster with Archery style + sharpshooter for supporting fire, also secondary sneak

1 Eldritch Knight with Protection style and the Healer feat, that way when you revive downed players they have a better shot of not immediately getting ko'd again

1 Samurai Great Weapon style + Heavy Weapon Mastery build, use Fighting Spirit to give yourself Advantage and go to town

1 Battlemaster with Defensive style and Tavern Brawler, to do the shove>grapple combo to set up curbstomp opportunities for the rest of the team.

[djreynolds]

I am starting a game where we will all have to be human fighters so far the party contains: A brute (based around tanking), arcane archer, weapon master (homebrew I don't know much about but I know he is taking the healer feat), monster hunter, and then me an Eldritch knight.
I plan on getting ritual caster at lv 1 because human and we need as much casting as we can get. Do you have any recommendations for spells that are musts please tell me your ideas.

From MI
Feather fall... you never know
Heroism... unfortunately dragons are real
Protection from good/evil... 10 minutes
Bless... helps out 3 party members
Hex... AFB, but since its a spell, at least the necrotic damage will not be halved

EK 2nd level spells
Misty step can get you into lots of places...
Rope trick... short rest
Alter self
Darkvision
Knock
Spider Climb
Web

Ritual caster
tensers floating disk

If possible, everyone could grab MI, and snag cantrips to cover down

[Teaguethebean]

From MI
Feather fall... you never know
Heroism... unfortunately dragons are real
Protection from good/evil... 10 minutes
Bless... helps out 3 party members
Hex... AFB, but since its a spell, at least the necrotic damage will not be halved


How on earth could I have Heroism, Bless, or Hex from being an eldritch knight?

[RSP]

What does this part in bold mean? It's not like the advantage of Booming Blade goes away at level 5. It's especially weird because you're responding to an example about level 5 fighters in which it's clearly shown that Booming Blade is about twice as much damage as the Attack action.

If your math is correct, it’s a very, very niche situation in which damage is better with BB.

What you bolded refers to Extra Attack, which comes on board at level 5. So if using BB, you have one shot to hit and if you miss, that’s it; whereas if you take the attack action, you get two attacks, two chances to hit and two chances for damage.

Generally speaking, it’s better to have two attacks than one with the BB riders, so at 5th level, it becomes even more advantageous to have selected a different cantrip than BB.

Also, I disagree with the blanket statement it’s better to select feats at level 4 than ASI’s. If a Dex fighter, all the more so as increasing Dex (which I believe you were using in your example) increases to hit, damage, AC and initiative.

As to your math, if going Dex build, I’d go ASI and making that 18 rather than 16, for the above states increases.

1d8+4=~8.5 (or 17 with 2 attacks hitting)

BB
1d8+3+1d8=12 (21 if you can get the rider)

Now these don’t take into account a fighting style, so if going Dueling:

1d8+4+2=10.5 (21 with 2 attacks hitting)

BB= 14 (23 if you can get the rider)

So if adding in dealing with resistances to weapon damage, you have:

5 (10 if both hit) or 4 (8) if not dueling

And

BB: 8.5 (17.5 if moving rider) or 7.5 (16.5) if not dueling

So, the numbers don’t look as drastic as you posted, though I’m not sure what you were using. Obviously if going Dual Wielding or using a Str build, with or without GWM, the numbers will change some; this is just my best guess off of what you had posed with your resistance, no magic weapons scenario.

Edit: looking back did you not apply resistance to the weapon attack of BB? That may account for why you got the higher amount for BB.

[CTurbo]

I've done the all Fighter party back before there were so many subclasses to choose from. We were all Champions, Battle Masters, or EKs. Fighters are flexible enough through feats and backgrounds to work. I think every character should have Ritual Caster and/or Magic Initiate and there should be at least one familiar if not two. Concentrate on utility cantrips and spells.

[djreynolds]

How on earth could I have Heroism, Bless, or Hex from being an eldritch knight?

Take magic initiate, or MI. It will add lot versatility.

Perhaps the entire party could grab the MI feat and select different cantrips.

Hex on a fighter.... is awesome. You have constitution save proficiency.... but nothing to concentrate on.

Magic initiate is great for any class and no prerequisites

[MaxWilson]

Edit: looking back did you not apply resistance to the weapon attack of BB? That may account for why you got the higher amount for BB.

I didn't overlook that point.

Attack w/ rapier: two hits on 9+ for (d8+3)/2.
Booming Blade: one hit on 9+ for (d8+3)/2+3d8.

It's no mystery why Booming Blade has the higher damage. It bypasses weapon resistance.

[RSP]

I didn't overlook that point.

Attack w/ rapier: two hits on 9+ for (d8+3)/2.
Booming Blade: one hit on 9+ for (d8+3)/2+3d8.

It's no mystery why Booming Blade has the higher damage. It bypasses weapon resistance.

The thunder damage does, but getting the 2d8 is going to be an issue. Also the fact that BB becomes obsolete with levels, and magic weapons or the Magic Weapon spell.

Likewise, if something has Thunder resistance instead of P/S/B, BB takes a hit.

Add in the EK gets 2 cantrips through level 9, and I can’t see it as anything other than a waste. The very situational plus damage isn’t worth wasting one of your two cantrips

[MaxWilson]

The thunder damage does, but getting the 2d8 is going to be an issue.

Didn't we already discuss this? Remember Mobile feat, and you asking for Dex 18 instead of Mobile feat, etc.? Seems a little late to be changing your mind.


Also the fact that BB becomes obsolete with levels, and magic weapons or the Magic Weapon spell.

At higher levels it remains relevant via Warcaster opportunity attacks.


Likewise, if something has Thunder resistance instead of P/S/B, BB takes a hit.

Yes, that's a truism, but fortunately Thunder resistance is rare anyway.


Add in the EK gets 2 cantrips through level 9, and I can’t see it as anything other than a waste. The very situational plus damage isn’t worth wasting one of your two cantrips

Wow. Weapon resistance or immunity is "very situational"? It's on, like, 30-40% of the monsters that WotC publishes.

Obviously if you already know somehow that the OP's DM is going to be handing out lots of magic weapons, it ceases to be an issue, but how would you know that, Rsp29a?

[RSP]

Didn't we already discuss this? Remember Mobile feat, and you asking for Dex 18 instead of Mobile feat, etc.? Seems a little late to be changing your mind.

So the EK has Mobile and Warcaster now? The OP stated they were taking Ritual Caster, but okay, guess we’ll change it up a little and make it a level 6 EK.

What about the other 2 fighters? Are they in melee with the target? If so, that target ain’t taking 2d8 damage and 2 opportunity attacks to chase you. Does the monster have ranged attacks?

Are we just forgetting all that to make your very situational, minor damage boost sound better?

Is the Brute (“based around tanking”) a ranged Brute? Or are they taking Mobile as well to be that elusive hit-and-run tank? Because otherwise they’re still standing right next to the target.

Also, at the very least in this circumstance, please add in Dex for all the feats you’re handing out. You’ve now given the 5th level EK two new feats (Warcaster and Mobile), so, again, I’ll just assume you’ve bumped him to level 6. That’s maxed Dex 20 vs Dex 16.

Factor in the +2 AC, +2 to hit, and +2 to damage per hit. Oh yeah, and also factor in the options when taking a worthwhile cantrip, like a ranged attack cantrip or utility.

Or leave those out to try and make your point sound slightly less bad: that a few added HP on one hit will make this all seem worthwhile compared to alternatives.




At higher levels it remains relevant via Warcaster opportunity attacks.

If not using your BA regularly, you get a little boost (most of the time +1d8) damage. Which I said above in that if you know the campaign is heavily set in the 7-10 range it’ll be more effective.

However, at level 8 the EK can grab Magic Weapon, which, if the campaign doesn’t have magic weapons in it, and you’re facing a lot of resistant monsters, is very much a good idea and nullifies the original argument and any damage boost from BB (due to full damage on weapon attacks).



Wow. Weapon resistance or immunity is "very situational"? It's on, like, 30-40% of the monsters that WotC publishes.

Not sure those numbers are correct, but I’m not expecting accuracy from your points at this point in the discussion. They certainly aren’t correct for creatures 5th level PCs and lower will be facing (which I thought was the situation).

Also, factor in the campaign: is the DM really packing this campaign with monsters resistant to S/B/P without handing out magic weapons, while forcing every PC to be a fighter?



Obviously if you already know somehow that the OP's DM is going to be handing out lots of magic weapons, it ceases to be an issue, but how would you know that, Rsp29a?

Again, look at the campaign. If you really want to play a campaign where everyone’s a fighter and the monsters you face have resistance to weapon attacks, at levels 1-5, well then everyone is nerfed, and maybe adding 1d8 thunder damage if you can get a creature to move, for levels 1-4 (the first three levels of which you don’t have Mobile for), isn’t going to change that.

[finaldooms]

i dont really play 5e, but BB gives you extra damage if they move right? ....how does having the mobile feat help make them move? i just googled it and it says... add 10 to your speed, ignore difficult terrain, and you DON'T provoke AOO from the guy you just tried attacking...unless im looking at something wrong?

[Teaguethebean]

you DON'T provoke AOO from the guy you just tried attacking...unless im looking at something wrong?

That's it if you can't get AOO on you, you can run away and they will have to chase you

[RSP]

i dont really play 5e, but BB gives you extra damage if they move right? ....how does having the mobile feat help make them move? i just googled it and it says... add 10 to your speed, ignore difficult terrain, and you DON'T provoke AOO from the guy you just tried attacking...unless im looking at something wrong?

The idea being that you run in, use BB, then run out without provoking an opportunity attack, giving the afflicted creature no viable targets to attack without moving and taking the extra Thunder damage.

Again, it’s contingent on a whole lot of different things outside of the PC’s control, hence why I (and others) think it’s unreliable.

[Rhedyn]

My EK build would be a Variant Human starting with Ritual Caster, Grab defense style, grab warcaster at 4. Pump strength, then pump int, then con with any remaining ASIs.

Grab Firebolt and utility cantrips.

I see the EK as the utility tank that can dump dex to range attack with Int. Sage Background could go well here.

[BigPixie]

Get Mounted Combatant and buff your mount. I don't know if you've ever seen an elephant with spider climb and shield but is wreck s***. :smalltongue:

[MaxWilson]

So the EK has Mobile and Warcaster now? The OP stated they were taking Ritual Caster, but okay, guess we’ll change it up a little and make it a level 6 EK.

I suggested Mobile initially, or any other way of forcing the weapon-resistant enemy to move. (Darkness would work, or in this case since you've got a party of all fighters you could just take advantage of Shove. It depends.)

I only brought up Warcaster when you wanted to discuss high levels--early on it's not worth the bother because you don't have enough spells and your opportunity attack is already about as strong as your regular attack sequence. Only later on does the Fighter's opportunity attack become weak, so you might consider Warcaster around level 12ish.


What about the other 2 fighters? Are they in melee with the target? If so, that target ain’t taking 2d8 damage and 2 opportunity attacks to chase you. Does the monster have ranged attacks?

Depends on the monster. If it's e.g. an Iron Golem, the other two fighters have no reason to be in melee with the monster--they can't even hurt it. See the forest here, stop asking me to describe an individual tree.


Are we just forgetting all that to make your very situational, minor damage boost sound better?

Double damage against weapon-resistant enemies isn't a minor boost. (And going from zero damage => some damage against weapon-immune enemies is very much not a minor boost.)


Is the Brute (“based around tanking”) a ranged Brute? Or are they taking Mobile as well to be that elusive hit-and-run tank? Because otherwise they’re still standing right next to the target.

If I'm in charge of the brute, I'd make that a GWM/PAM Brute, which means that yes, he works very well with Booming Blade. Knock prone + GWM attack + bonus action GWM attack + move out of attack range (taking one opportunity attack at disadvantage); then the Booming Blade guy hits the target as well before it can stand up and also retreats back out of range. (Yes, yes, it depends on initiative order.)


Also, at the very least in this circumstance, please add in Dex for all the feats you’re handing out. You’ve now given the 5th level EK two new feats (Warcaster and Mobile), so, again, I’ll just assume you’ve bumped him to level 6. That’s maxed Dex 20 vs Dex 16.

No, there is no Warcaster on the 5th level EK.


Or leave those out to try and make your point sound slightly less bad: that a few added HP on one hit will make this all seem worthwhile compared to alternatives.

Again, more than doubling your damage is not "a few added HP". You're killing those Gargoyles more than twice as fast.

You only thought it was less because you apparently did the math wrong--it looks like you initially forgot aobut Booming Blade cantrip scaling, which is why you claimed that Booming Blade falls behind at 5th level, but of course that's wrong.


However, at level 8 the EK can grab Magic Weapon, which, if the campaign doesn’t have magic weapons in it, and you’re facing a lot of resistant monsters, is very much a good idea and nullifies the original argument and any damage boost from BB (due to full damage on weapon attacks).

Yes, you can see from this thread that I recommended Magic Weapon as a must-have spell for the EK, but (1) that only comes online at 7th level (not 8th), which is why my Gargoyle example happens before 7th level, (2) even at 7th level, if you have both Magic Weapon and Booming Blade you can enable two of the fighters in your party to fight weapon-resistant foes effectively. Wouldn't it be nice if the GWM/PAM Brute were doing full damage with his attack sequence and the EK were also doing almost full damage via Booming Blade + War Magic? I'm not knocking other cantrips like Mold Earth, but the OP should strongly consider a good attack cantrip like Booming Blade because its potential impact in this party is huge.


Not sure those numbers are correct, but I’m not expecting accuracy from your points at this point in the discussion. They certainly aren’t correct for creatures 5th level PCs and lower will be facing (which I thought was the situation).

Calm down. I've been nothing but accurate, while you've made a number of minor errors (e.g. miscalculating Booming Blade damage, quoting the wrong level for when the EK gets access to Magic Weapon, assigning superfluous feats to the EK, forgetting that Magic Weapon can benefit other PCs), yet because I haven't rubbed your nose in those errors (because they were so obvious I thought they spoke for themselves) you seem to have concluded that... I'm the one whose points can't be trusted?

Look. It's really simple. In a party of all fighters, it's potentially really nice to have a way to do full damage to weapon-resistant creatures. Consider that when choosing your cantrips. That is all.

[RSP]

If I'm in charge of the brute, I'd make that a GWM/PAM Brute, which means that yes, he works very well with Booming Blade. Knock prone + GWM attack + bonus action GWM attack + move out of attack range (taking one opportunity attack at disadvantage); then the Booming Blade guy hits the target as well before it can stand up and also retreats back out of range. (Yes, yes, it depends on initiative order.)

So, again, in this situation, you need another character to use their actions to help BB’s effectiveness? Why not make better use of that potential +10 damage attack? Why is a better damaging character giving up their better damaging attack to help a lesser damaging effect? Why not use the weaker EK attack to Prone so as to get full use out of the three +10 damage attacks at Advantage?




Again, more than doubling your damage is not "a few added HP". You're killing those Gargoyles more than twice as fast.

You only thought it was less because you apparently did the math wrong--it looks like you initially forgot aobut Booming Blade cantrip scaling, which is why you claimed that Booming Blade falls behind at 5th level, but of course that's wrong.

How is the math I did wrong:

1d8+3+1d8=12 (21 if you can get the rider) for BB (which is closer to 11 adding in the lower to hit chance), or, since the 1d8+3 (~7.5) is resisted, it’s 3.75 which is rounded down due to the resistance, or 3+4.5 with a possible ~9 more of you get the creature to move;

or

1d8+4=8.5 per attack (17 for 2), or 8 total if resistant (again rounding down the 8.5 to 4 for each attack)

So your “more than double damage” is really 7.5 for BB compared to 8 for using Extra Attack, when dealing with resistances, and a potential +9 if, and only if, the situation arises where you can dictate the target moving.

Again, this assumes you’re not going Dueling FS, which would make it BB 8.5 to EA 10.

And again, just getting a magic weapon makes this all swing drastically towards EA.



Yes, you can see from this thread that I recommended Magic Weapon as a must-have spell for the EK, but (1) that only comes online at 7th level (not 8th), which is why my Gargoyle example happens before 7th level, (2) even at 7th level, if you have both Magic Weapon and Booming Blade you can enable two of the fighters in your party to fight weapon-resistant foes effectively. Wouldn't it be nice if the GWM/PAM Brute were doing full damage with his attack sequence and the EK were also doing almost full damage via Booming Blade + War Magic? I'm not knocking other cantrips like Mold Earth, but the OP should strongly consider a good attack cantrip like Booming Blade because its potential impact in this party is huge.

MW on a different character could be a fine option, I never excluded this possibility, however, you seem to be ignoring that the Brute, in your own example, is Shoving rather than attacking...




Calm down. I've been nothing but accurate, while you've made a number of minor errors (e.g. miscalculating Booming Blade damage, quoting the wrong level for when the EK gets access to Magic Weapon, assigning superfluous feats to the EK, forgetting that Magic Weapon can benefit other PCs), yet because I haven't rubbed your nose in those errors (because they were so obvious I thought they spoke for themselves) you seem to have concluded that... I'm the one whose points can't be trusted?

I’m not sure why you think I’m not calm, but, let’s move on: again, how is my math wrong?

And are you defending your position of “Weapon resistance or immunity is...on, like, 30-40% of the monsters that WotC publishes.”

Again, with the focus of the conversation being on levels 1-5?

Also, if you’re going with a monster having resistance to one of P/S/B, well that matters a lot less as EK can have two weapons bonded so you can always avoid a singular instance of either S/B/or P, and really, since we’re assuming a Dex build using a rapier, you’d only have to worry about P resistance.

But again, your initial statement was for full weapon resistance or immunity.



Look. It's really simple. In a party of all fighters, it's potentially really nice to have a way to do full damage to weapon-resistant creatures. Consider that when choosing your cantrips. That is all.

How are you getting “full damage to weapon-resistant creatures” with BB? You still have to halve the weapon attack damage. Or is this another one of your inaccurate statements?

[djreynolds]

Everyone in the party could in someway have access to magic, that be good.

I ran a brute with magic initiate, MI, and hex from warlock... he was bearded dwarven twin battle axe blender of death

And for cantrips I took minor illusion and lightning lure.

I ran battlemaster/swashbuckler and grab protection from evil, and guidance and resistance.

I'm jealous, it sounds like it's going to be a blast of a campaign

[Brotherbock]

As a counterpoint (not disagreement) to what some are saying, depending on the campaign and world you may be perfectly fine without everyone having access to some magic. It's not like there's a default level of magicyness that every party must measure up to :)

It would be entirely possible, and could be very fun if done well, for D&D to be used for an entirely magic-free campaign. I've played in very limited magic campaigns before that were great--campaigns where the party spellcasters and a few NPCs were the only spellcasters to be found. Certainly the real world shows that combat can be accomplished with just swords and arrows and no magic.

So, that said, what I'd also look into for the party at large is to what extent people have stealth/rogue skills. Does anyone have any way to sneak into the enemy castle in the middle of the night to steal the fabulous widget? To open the locked chest? Disarm the trapped door? Someone taking a Criminal background or something similar might be helpful.

[opaopajr]

Exactly! :smallannoyed: Who has the Thieves' Tools? :smalleek:

[Teaguethebean]

Exactly! :smallannoyed: Who has the Thieves' Tools? :smalleek:

To fill you in nobody has Theives tools but I doubt it will be a problem we are soldiers for an army so sneaky into a home and picking locks wont be common but in the case of traps I doubt he will feel the need to add them to frequently when they wont be a challenge but simply a health tax

[Teaguethebean]

Also the first session just wrapped up and it went great.
Our party is all lv1 and have nothing but one martial weapon, and a few other items fitting of the character ie. I have my book, healer feat guy has his kit, and our archer has arrows. (This is purely for story reasons) We fought a couple encounters and are still going strong.

Some notable things that occurred are; my familiar was a great help granting advantage with a help action and then flying away helped when flanking wasn't a possibility. Flanking happend alot with four melee fighters we surrounded alot of enemies including a fairly hearty fae I do see our lack of ranged as a problem but our moster hunter has bothe good dex and str so he will probably pick up a bow when we can get him one, and I will probably get firebolt when I can. I will keep you all updated in the future.

[Rhedyn]

Also the first session just wrapped up and it went great.
Our party is all lv1 and have nothing but one martial weapon, and a few other items fitting of the character ie. I have my book, healer feat guy has his kit, and our archer has arrows. (This is purely for story reasons) We fought a couple encounters and are still going strong.

Some notable things that occurred are; my familiar was a great help granting advantage with a help action and then flying away helped when flanking wasn't a possibility. Flanking happend alot with four melee fighters we surrounded alot of enemies including a fairly hearty fae I do see our lack of ranged as a problem but our moster hunter has bothe good dex and str so he will probably pick up a bow when we can get him one, and I will probably get firebolt when I can. I will keep you all updated in the future.
What benefit would Flanking provide?

[RSP]

What benefit would Flanking provide?

An optional rule that anytime allies are flanking an opponent, they each get Advantage on melee attacks.

[MaxWilson]

So, again, in this situation, you need another character to use their actions to help BB’s effectiveness? Why not make better use of that potential +10 damage attack? Why is a better damaging character giving up their better damaging attack to help a lesser damaging effect? Why not use the weaker EK attack to Prone so as to get full use out of the three +10 damage attacks at Advantage?

He is knocking the target prone to help *himself* on his power attack. It synergizes with the Booming Blade guy because it benefits them both. You had asked how they fit together, as if you thought they were in conflict. They're not.

Obviously if some other fighter has *already* knocked the target prone it just gets better for everyone. In a party full of fighters that's not unlikely.

You know, we're clearly just not communicating on the same level. I'm gong to stop trying.

[RSP]

He is knocking the target prone to help *himself* on his power attack. It synergizes with the Booming Blade guy because it benefits them both. You had asked how they fit together, as if you thought they were in conflict. They're not.


And again, in a party of fighters, why does it makes sense to you to sacrifice a “power attack” for a shove, so that non-“power attacks” can get Advantage? Remember, prior to 5, it’s one attack the fighter has if they have GWM. Wouldn’t it make more sense to sacrifice a non-“power attack” to give the “power attack” advantage? Even after level 6, assuming they picked up PAM, wouldn’t it still make sense to sacrifice a non-“power attack” for an attack that deals +10 damage?

Also, please answer the following:

How was my math wrong?

How are you getting “full damage to weapon-resistant creatures” with BB?

Care to back up your statement of “Weapon resistance or immunity is...on, like, 30-40% of the monsters that WotC publishes.”

[MaxWilson]

And again, in a party of fighters, why does it makes sense to you to sacrifice a “power attack” for a shove, so that non-“power attacks” can get Advantage?

Because the Brute hypothetically won initiative, and the first guy who has a chance to shove the enemy prone should do so. The first fighter to go shoves the big bad target prone (Glabrezu, Annis Hag, whatever). Everybody who is melee-specialized whales on the target at advantage (unless they're busy with a different target*). When you're in a non-all-fighter party, you take PAM/GWM so you can do Shove Prone + Power Attack at Disadvantage, and that synergizes with the Booming Blade guy--but as I've said repeatedly, if somebody else has already shoved the enemy prone, you don't have to and that makes it even better.

Sheesh. Is this not as obvious as I think it is? Am I expecting too much? At this point I'm surprised you haven't loudly demanded to know how the Brute is spending their Action Surges. That's obvious too (obviously if the PAM/GWM guy knocks a Glabrezu prone he's going to Action Surge two more GWM attacks against it), but you keep asking questions with obvious answers, including even after I've already answered them. Part of me suspects you haven't even realized that the scenario is "Shove Prone + make attacks + step away (taking an opportunity attack at disadvantage)" because your objections make more sense if you think you're objecting to "Shove away + make reach attacks at 10'" even though I described the opposite tactic in post #27, in response to your question about the Brute's interactions with Booming Blade:


Is the Brute (“based around tanking”) a ranged Brute? Or are they taking Mobile as well to be that elusive hit-and-run tank? Because otherwise they’re still standing right next to the target.


If I'm in charge of the brute, I'd make that a GWM/PAM Brute, which means that yes, he works very well with Booming Blade. Knock prone + GWM attack + bonus action GWM attack + move out of attack range (taking one opportunity attack at disadvantage); then the Booming Blade guy hits the target as well before it can stand up and also retreats back out of range. (Yes, yes, it depends on initiative order.)

Sheesh.

Am I expecting too much to think you know what to do when there's more targets than PCs? It's different, but it also tends to be rare since 5E marks those encounters as quite Deadly unless the whole encounter is full of just mooks--and a GWM/PAM guy will clear out hordes of mooks without even bothering to shove anyone prone. The hypothetical 5th level party is probably not going to be fighting five or more CR 2 creatures at once, but if they do you have to change tactics.

[RSP]

Because the Brute hypothetically won initiative, and the first guy who has a chance to shove the enemy prone should do so.

Ah, so now every character has the potential to sacrifice their actions to help the BB cantrip be more effective.

It doesn’t generally help the GWM fighter w/o PAM to shove as two attacks are better than one attack with Advantage (you can hit twice with two attacks).

You’re also using a strategy the screws over the arcane archer, and possibly the weapon master if they’re using a ranged attack, but yeah, give the GWM a worse turn, and give the ranged fighters Disadvantage on every attack to make BB sound better.

Also, please address prior statements.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, so now every character has the potential to sacrifice their actions to help the BB cantrip be more effective.

It doesn’t generally help the GWM fighter w/o PAM to shove as two attacks are better than one attack with Advantage (you can hit twice with two attacks).

Le sigh. Why am I still responding to you? I guess it's because I'm a sucker for teaching opportunities.

Let's disregard the Booming Blade EK entirely and just focus on PAM/GWM guy. He's 5th level, so let's say he's got Str 16, AC 19 (Plate Armor + Defense). You're fighting e.g. an Annis Hag. Given the choice between:

(1) Make two attacks and a bonus action attack against the Annis Hag, then take a full attack sequence from the Annis, then do it again next round, OR

(2) Shove the Annis Hag prone, make an attack* at advantage and a bonus attack at advantage, then take an opportunity attack at disadvantage from the Hag and move far enough away that it can't make an Attack against against you (or anyone else in the party) next turn, and if it does approach you you get to make a reaction attack (not at advantage) against it,

which of those two options gives you a better ratio of damage-dealt-to-damage-taken?

Would you rather make three attacks (two at advantage) in exchange for taking one attack at disadvantage (not a Multiattack), or make three attacks and take a full Multiattack sequence in return?

* Yes, there's a chance you will need to spend two attacks on shoving the Annis prone and will only get the bonus action attack, and there's even a 22.6% chance they will both fail and you'll have wasted your action. That's life, and it's included in "doing the math."


Also, please address prior statements.

Please reread thread, see answers given before you even asked the questions.

[Teaguethebean]

You’re also using a strategy the screws over the arcane archer, and possibly the weapon master if they’re using a ranged attack, but yeah, give the GWM a worse turn, and give the ranged fighters Disadvantage on every attack to make BB sound better.

Also, please address prior statements.

So that this argument can be put to rest I won't be taking BB I need utility and ranged something that our party is lacking and I can't spend an entire cantrip for this. I also am a strength Eldritch knight who uses a great sword so the BB doing 2d6+1d8+3 wont stand up to 4d6+6 from two strikes

[MaxWilson]

So that this argument can be put to rest I won't be taking BB I need utility and ranged something that our party is lacking and I can't spend an entire cantrip for this. I also am a strength Eldritch knight who uses a great sword so the BB doing 2d6+1d8+3 wont stand up to 4d6+6 from two strikes

Thanks, good to know.

[Brotherbock]

Would you rather make three attacks (two at advantage) in exchange for taking one attack at disadvantage (not a Multiattack), or make three attacks and take a full Multiattack sequence in return?



I say take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

[MaxWilson]

I say take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

Spoken like an Evoker. :-P

[RSP]

Let's disregard the Booming Blade EK entirely and just focus on PAM/GWM guy. He's 5th level, so let's say he's got Str 16, AC 19 (Plate Armor + Defense).

I seem to remember pointing out a GWM without PAM (side note: “w/o” is shorthand for “without” in case you thought that meant something else) not benefiting from this.

I also remember pointing out how that strategy screws over the ranged PCs, but yeah, ignore that as well.

Also, I think you’ll admit that requiring a PC to go before you in combat, have that PC be willing to shove rather than anything else, succeed on that shove, then have you go after creature, certainly isn’t reliable.

You said 22% of the time (in your example with the Annis Hag) both shoves will fail. So out of the remaining 78% of the time where two attacks weren’t wasted on trying to make BB work, how often is the Dex-based EK going after the Str-based Brute? I’d imagine there’s at least a 3 point difference in initiative, and the EK wins ties d/t higher Dex, and therefore Initiative score.

So, everything else being even, it’s probably about a 65:35 spread the EK goes first? This is just a rough guess-timate.

So of that 35% of the time the Brute goes first, the Brute succeeds to shove the Hag roughly 78% of the time; meaning 27% of the time you might be able to get the added 9 points of BB damage.

Now the Hag has +1 Initiative which is probably slightly better than the Brute, but could be equal. So let’s err on the side of BB effectiveness and say they have a 50:50 shot at going before the Brute, or at least, before the EK when the EK goes after the Brute.

That means that 27% drops to 13.5% of the time. That’s not factoring in the Hag using its spells instead of moving or has another target within range to attack (also not factoring in that the Hag casting Counterspell on BB completely nullifies the damage of BB and therefore completely wasting the sacrifices Attacks to shove as well, but we’ll save that for another post).

Also, the Hag has an AC of 17, meaning the Dex 16 EK between levels 5-8 needs to roll an 11 or higher to hit, so 50% chance on that, and with Advantage means they’ll hit ~75% of the time. But that means they’ll miss 25% of the time.

And, just for fun, let’s assume you’re right about 30-40% of the monsters being resistant or immune (when you’re arguing BB is needed), and we’ll give you and BB the benefit of the doubt and assume 40% for this.

So, yeah, I guess taking BB over a utility cantrip or a ranged attack spell, when another character is 100% willing to sacrifice their action and attacks to Shove, makes sense to get ~9 extra damage maybe ~10% of the time...

Which, when factoring in that this is only needed in that 40% of encounters, that ~9 extra Thunder damage applies roughly 4% of the time. Though this is using an incredibly small sample size of the one creature you happened to choose, I imagine that 4% will fluctuate a bit up or down (though, yes I doubt 40% of the monster’s are resistant or immune to weapon attacks so 4% is probably high overall)



Please reread thread, see answers given before you even asked the questions.

Oh, did you show that 30-40% of monsters are resistant or immune to all weapon damage? You may be right: I haven’t categorically gone through the MM but it seems a statement that requires backing up if you’re using it as part of an argument.

Did you show somehow that BB gets “full damage to weapon-resistant creatures” or are you conceding this was a false statement and that the weapon damage part of the spell (as opposed to the Thunder damage) would still get halved?