Full caster main tank - Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard

[PancakeMaster80]

Introduction

I've always been intrigued by the idea of a full arcane caster that also functions as a frontline tank for the party. After much thought I've settled on this tri-class build. I know that to many 3 classes in one character is a bit much, but I believe this build is quite powerful when broken down by the features it has access to.


Spirit Guardians is a powerhouse spell
Meta magic is great with buff spells and cantrip based damage
Warlock spell slots synergize extremely well with sorcerer features
War magic wizards are very potent when most rounds are spent casting cantrips


Of course this build is complicated enough that I'm almost certain I'm missing some optimization, that's where you helpful folks come in.
One last note, this build is being made for AL content and will be following those rules, with xanathar's guide to everything as our 1 splat book.

Character Creation

Stats
For this build we'll be using the point buy system, with the following stats:

Str - 8
dex - 15
con - 12
int - 13
wis - 8
cha - 15

Race
We'll use the human variant, taking the warcaster feat, +1 to cha and dex, and proficiency in acrobatics. This brings our stats to:

Str - 8
dex - 16
con - 12
int - 13
wis - 8
cha - 16

Background
Now we take criminal, as deception and stealth are always useful to have

Class
When it comes to class, we start with sorcerer for con save proficiency and pushing us towards spirit guardians as fast as possible.

Gear

I took the following:
Light crossbow
Arcane focus
Dungeoneer's pack
Two daggers


Sorcerous Origin
Here we take Divine soul, it gives us the following

Full access to the cleric spell list cast as cha based spells.
Cure wounds from our good affinity
Favored by the gods that lets us add 2d4 to a failed saving throw or missed attack once per short/long rest


Spells
Cantrips:

Shocking grasp
Toll the dead
Spare the dying
Light

1st level:

Shield
Shield of faith


Levels 2-5
This build will spend its first 5 levels are a straight sorcerer, at least the way I'm ordering the levels. You have toll the dead for basic damage dealing and shocking grasp for when you become melee.

Level 2

Class features

Font of Magic: key sorcerer ability that will give us more casts of the spells we really want


Spells
1st level:

Healing Word


Level 3

Class features

Metamagic: we take extended spell for things like aid and quickened spell for double casting cantrips or a big spell and a cantrip


Spells
2nd level:

Aid


Level 4

ASI

We take the shield master feat, it’ll be key in a couple levels


Spells
Cantrips:

Mending


2nd level:

Spiritual weapon


Level 5

Spells
3rd level:

Replace shield with counter spell
Spirit guardians


Levels 6-10
Now it’s time for our first multi-class. We’ll be taking 5 levels of warlock. Warlock gives us the following:

Medium armor, shield, and weapon proficiency
Synergy of sorcery points and short rest spell slots
Hex blade’s curse for boss fights
Eldritch blast for round-to-round damage
Pact of the chain for advantage on 1 attack per round and maximized healing dice
Spirit guardian on short rest


Level 6
Otherworldly Patron
We take the hexblade patron, it gives us the shield spell to replace the one we swapped out earlier and gives us hexblade’s curse for boss fights

Spells
Cantrips:

Eldritch blast
Mage hand


1st level:

Hex
Shield


Level 7

Eldritch Invocations

Agonizing blast
Grasp of Hadar


Spells
1st level:

Hellish rebuke


Level 8

Pact Boon

Pact of the chain: gives us a familiar and more importantly, the gift of the ever-living ones invocation


Eldritch Invocations

Replace Grasp of Hadar with gift of the ever-living ones


Spells
2nd level:

Mirror image


Level 9

ASI

We take the medium armor mastery feat to take advantage of our 16 dex and allow us to be stealthy in our armor


Spells
1st level:

Armor of Agathys


Level 10

Eldritch Invocation

Grasp of Hadar


Spells
3rd level:

Magic circle
Replace hellish rebuke with dispel magic


Levels 11-20
Now it’s time for our second multi-class, this time into wizard, giving us the following benefits.

Mage spell list is the best spell list
War magic is great for a tank that casts one concentration spell then uses mostly cantrips
Continues to increase our spell slot levels so we can further up-cast spirit guardians


Level 11

Arcane Recovery
Nice to have another way to get back spell slots

Spells
Cantrips:

Message
Blade ward
Minor illusion

1st level:

Alarm
Comprehend languages
Detect magic
Minor illusion
Tenser’s floating disk
Unseen servant

Level 12

Arcane Tradition
We take war magic for the following:

Arcane deflection: lets us increase or ac or saving throw when needed, this build will mostly be casting cantrips so the downside is minor.
Tactical wit: +1 initiative is always nice


Spells
1st level:

Illusory script
Sleep


Level 13

Spells
2nd level:

Blindness/Deafness
Misty step


Level 14
ASI

+2 cha bringing us to 18


Spells
Cantrips:

Mold earth


1st level:

Longstrider


2nd level:

Featherfall


Level 15

Spells
Level 3:

Bestow curse
Dispel magic


Level 16

Arcane Tradition

Power surge: a little extra benefit to our dispel magic and counter spells is always nice, as is a little extra damage


Spells
3rd level:

Fireball
Leomund's tiny hut


Level 17

Spells
4th level:

Polymorph
Fire shield


Level 18

ASI

+2 cha bringing us to 20


Spells
4th level:

Blight
Mordenkainen's faithful hound


Level 19

Spells
5th level:

Animate objects
Wall of force


Level 20

Arcane tradition

+2 to ac and saves while concentrating? Yes please


Spells
5th level:

Cone of cold
Steel wind strike


Level 20

Strategy
The way I organized the levels this build spends levels 1-5 as a normal back line caster, coming online as a full tank at level 6. If a tank was needed in your party, you could take 1 level in warlock, but I preferred getting to spirit guardians as fast as possible.

After level 6 this build becomes a full tank. During most fights the first round will be spent casting SG then moving towards the enemy. After that the build has several damage cantrips to choose from to fit the situation. Eldritch blast is by far the best at range, with shocking grasp or toll the dead being used against targets the build is in melee with. Quickened spell is especially good at this point, as it lets you cast 2 cantrips in a single round.

Although SG is the go-to concentration for this build, it's not the only option. Twin spelling buffs like shield of faith, haste, or polymorph are all very good options, depending what the situation calls for. The build also gets decent 1-shot damage options like fireball.

The main weaknesses of this build are:

Restrictive stat requirements
Missing out on 6-9th level spells


However, I think the benefits outweigh the gains:

build still gets a 20 in its main stat with a 16 dex for important spell saves an initiative.
The build still has access to spell slots up to level 8, and spells like SG benefit greatly from being up-cast, so I don't think this reduces the build's combat effectiveness


And that’s it! Hope you enjoyed reading this, if you have any suggestions, I’d be happy to hear them =).

Edit

Redid the build to remove the 1 level in cleric and 1 level in wizard, instead putting those level in warlock for better short rest spell slots, an extra evocation, and an extra ASI. To make up for not having heavy armor we take the medium armor mastery feat so we get a max +3 to medium armor AC from dex.

[Corran]

Strategy
The main spell for this build is spirit guardians, using its damage and movement reduction to play havoc in the front lines. The spell doesn’t have friendly fire so it plays nice with other melee characters, and it has worthwhile up-casting potential, so even though this build doesn’t get access to the highest level spells, it has something useful to do with its slots.
Aside from SG this build makes use of shocking grasp, toll the dead, and eldritch blast, depending on which cantrip is strongest. We also have access to powerful meta magics, the hexblade curse, and the enhanced defense provided by war magic. We also maximize any healing dice rolled on us. I believe this build strikes a good balance between defense and offense.

And that’s it! Hope you enjoyed reading this, if you have any suggestions, I’d be happy to hear them =).
This is the important bit. Ie what the character is doing during round 1,2,3,etc. Additionally how reliable can we expect this strategy to be. What can we do to boost its reliability and what back up tactics we want to have access to in case we cannot employ our primary strategy. Meaning that our backup tactics should play well when our primary strategy does not play well. How fast can we expect to have our tactics up and running (ie at what level). How fast can we have our tactics up and running reliably? Once that's done, maybe look for weak points of the build (eg wisdom saves in your case). That's probably what you need and how you need to do character optimization. Next step is to check how you can adapt the build to fit a certain group, or if you want, you can reverse engineer this and try to think what kind of allies would play well with this character build.

At least that's how I would try to present it. Cause the way you have presented it, makes it too difficult to draw good conclusions about what you are trying to achieve and about how well you manage to achieve it. Listing class features and progression alone is not enough for someone else to draw meaningful conclusions, other than about the legality of the build.

[Throne12]

Why not play a hill dwarf Arcane cleric with Sentinel and war caster. As a Arcane cleric pick booming blade.

Hp will be d8+con+1 great hp for a full caster
You get med armor prof you dont want to high of a AC. If they cant hit you and you are damaging them they will move to a easier target. So you want to get hit every no and then.

Booming blade is to keep them from running away with suffering damage. You also have sentinel to keep them from running.

You pop spirit guardian and stay up in there face. If you need more hp or AC pick up the spells Aid or shield of faith.


I love playing tanky full casters that's can help the party with damage, healing or buffing. You cant beat a cleric in that role.

[Skylivedk]

Heavy armour and 8 strength don't mesh well. For your full plate, you'd like 15 or be a mountain dwarf.

I'd sincerely consider if the build is worth it compared to, ie a hexblade 1-3 / abjurer x. You can recharge your ward sheet each fight with your infinite Mage Armour and the ward protects allies as well. Much faster spell level progression, spell resistance etc. Give it a think :)

[BarneyBent]

Cleric dip is a waste IMO. You’d be better putting that WIS into DEX and taking medium armour from Hexblade.

Alternatively, a straight melee Cleric does this just as effectively.

[PancakeMaster80]

Why not play a hill dwarf Arcane cleric with Sentinel and war caster. As a Arcane cleric pick booming blade.

Hp will be d8+con+1 great hp for a full caster
You get med armor prof you dont want to high of a AC. If they cant hit you and you are damaging them they will move to a easier target. So you want to get hit every no and then.

I've personally found that high AC is what I prefer as a tank, the rough terrain of SG is enough to make it hard for enemies to leave my threat range.


Booming blade is to keep them from running away with suffering damage. You also have sentinel to keep them from running.

You pop spirit guardian and stay up in there face. If you need more hp or AC pick up the spells Aid or shield of faith.

I would love booming blade, sadly for this build I can't use it because it's from another book, and I think XGA's content is too good to ditch for SCAG.



I love playing tanky full casters that's can help the party with damage, healing or buffing. You cant beat a cleric in that role.

Cleric certainly is quite good, however I think that the mix for arcane and holy spell lists leads to a stronger outcome.

[PancakeMaster80]

Heavy armour and 8 strength don't mesh well. For your full plate, you'd like 15 or be a mountain dwarf.

Losing 10 ft of movement isn't a huge deal. SG slows enemies down, and if covering ground was really needed the dash action could be used, as SG still does its damage.


I'd sincerely consider if the build is worth it compared to, ie a hexblade 1-3 / abjurer x. You can recharge your ward sheet each fight with your infinite Mage Armour and the ward protects allies as well. Much faster spell level progression, spell resistance etc. Give it a think :)

That is a cool build idea, definitely something to look into. I hadn't thought of the invocation mage armor plus Ajburerer school, maybe I could use that for a bladelock or something.

As for spell progression, this build gets it's keystone spell at level 5, after that it can just up-cast SG and get high value from it's larger spell slots.

[PancakeMaster80]

Cleric dip is a waste IMO. You’d be better putting that WIS into DEX and taking medium armour from Hexblade.

Cleric gives heavy armor and +1 ac without slowing down the build's spell progression, along with some useful ritual spells. Personally I think that's quite a powerful dip.


Alternatively, a straight melee Cleric does this just as effectively.

Metamagic plus a full arcane spell list is what puts this build over straight cleric IMO.

[PancakeMaster80]

This is the important bit. Ie what the character is doing during round 1,2,3,etc. Additionally how reliable can we expect this strategy to be. What can we do to boost its reliability and what back up tactics we want to have access to in case we cannot employ our primary strategy. Meaning that our backup tactics should play well when our primary strategy does not play well. How fast can we expect to have our tactics up and running (ie at what level). How fast can we have our tactics up and running reliably? Once that's done, maybe look for weak points of the build (eg wisdom saves in your case). That's probably what you need and how you need to do character optimization. Next step is to check how you can adapt the build to fit a certain group, or if you want, you can reverse engineer this and try to think what kind of allies would play well with this character build.

At least that's how I would try to present it. Cause the way you have presented it, makes it too difficult to draw good conclusions about what you are trying to achieve and about how well you manage to achieve it. Listing class features and progression alone is not enough for someone else to draw meaningful conclusions, other than about the legality of the build.

This character's battle plan is pretty simple, from levels 1-5 they act like a normal sorcerer, albeit one with healing spells. 6-20 they walk towards the enemy, cast SG on turn 1, then proceed to cast cantrips and other damage spells as needed. There are so many options I didn't think it was feasible to map them all out. In some fights twinning a buff spell might be better than SG, so that could be a turn 1 option as well, it all depends.

[Rukelnikov]

Spells
Cantrips:

Eldritch blast
Thunderclap


1st level:

Hex
Witch Bolt
Shield (pact)
Wrathful smite (pact)



Heya PancakeMaster, I noticed 2 things about your build, you are writing Pact spells as if they didn't count for you spells known, they do, so for instance here you would have to choose only two of those 4.

Another thing, in your point buy you had 9 Dex, 14 Con, and applied Vhuman's +1 to Dex, it would be slightly more efficient to go 11 Dex, 13 Con, and apply +1 to Con. Remember points 14 and 15 cost double, so its generally preferable to apply +1 to higher scores.

With that out of the way, the build sounds a lil bit overstuffed, do you really need Cleric and Hexblade? Taking Cleric messes your stat distribution, and about hexblade, take into account that by the time you are getting Voice of the Chain Master your familiar will already be pretty fragile, so giving advantage may quickly become a 10 min and gp bump after each fight.

Maybe you could drop the Cleric level, and take only 1 lvl of Hexblade, those 3 levels could go to Wizard for ASI and subclass "capstone", or to Sorcerer for ASI, 3 sorcery points, and empowered healing.

Btw, its no this build but... if you want an arcane caster full tank, a straight Bard can work wonders.

[PancakeMaster80]

This is the important bit. Ie what the character is doing during round 1,2,3,etc. Additionally how reliable can we expect this strategy to be. What can we do to boost its reliability and what back up tactics we want to have access to in case we cannot employ our primary strategy. Meaning that our backup tactics should play well when our primary strategy does not play well. How fast can we expect to have our tactics up and running (ie at what level). How fast can we have our tactics up and running reliably? Once that's done, maybe look for weak points of the build (eg wisdom saves in your case). That's probably what you need and how you need to do character optimization. Next step is to check how you can adapt the build to fit a certain group, or if you want, you can reverse engineer this and try to think what kind of allies would play well with this character build.

At least that's how I would try to present it. Cause the way you have presented it, makes it too difficult to draw good conclusions about what you are trying to achieve and about how well you manage to achieve it. Listing class features and progression alone is not enough for someone else to draw meaningful conclusions, other than about the legality of the build.

Re-wrote the conclusion, hope it helps

[sophontteks]

So you are taking twinned spell and the only buffing spell you have is shield of faith? Not that it matters. You will never ever, ever twinned. Your build needs spirit guardians to work. If you don't cast that they will just walk around you because of your reduced speed.

Use quickened to dash and dodge. Its a waste to just use it to cast an extra cantrip.

I think what you are looking for is Oath of the Crown paladin. Its a paladin with spirit guardians. No tricks needed to get a high AC. Great alpha potiential that makes you impossible to ignore. Giving your whole team a bonus to saving throws is honestly better then your twinned buff spells. More hitpoints, and you get access to fourth level spells earlier.

[Corran]

There are so many options I didn't think it was feasible to map them all out. In some fights twinning a buff spell might be better than SG, so that could be a turn 1 option as well, it all depends.
You don't have to map them all out. Just the important ones. ''Having many options'' and ''it all depends'' are statements that IMO should be more defined for an optimized character. A barb2/bard2/druid3/rogue5 has many options as well, but I need to explain why I think this is more optimal at what it does than any other combination of these classes (including singleclassed builds).

Honesty time. I find it very hard to believe that any character build with that extensive multiclassing will be optimal for anything other than perhaps some niche (and optimizing niches is a bit of a paradox anyway). And your post (I'll admit I only had a brief look at it) does not help me understand the merits of your decisions, because the majority of it is just listing class features. I am less interested in what class features are available but I am very interested in how you combine these class features to create a positive outcome (synergy). And I am advising to put more emphasis on the latter, at least as far as future builds/posts go. It's easy to get lost among a vast amount of class features and think that by having lots of nifty things that automatically means there is some synergy that makes the build capable and the multiclassing a good decision, while in fact this will probably not be the case.

Bottom line, define your tactics and then optimize around them. Knowing at what the features you need to aim for will do for your tactics, will allow you to make better decisions about how much and if at all multiclassing is worth delaying getting to higher level class levels.

[PancakeMaster80]

Heya PancakeMaster, I noticed 2 things about your build, you are writing Pact spells as if they didn't count for you spells known, they do, so for instance here you would have to choose only two of those 4.

You are totally right, I misread that feature, I'll fix it right away!


Another thing, in your point buy you had 9 Dex, 14 Con, and applied Vhuman's +1 to Dex, it would be slightly more efficient to go 11 Dex, 13 Con, and apply +1 to Con. Remember points 14 and 15 cost double, so its generally preferable to apply +1 to higher scores.

Another good catch, I'll make that adjustment =).


With that out of the way, the build sounds a lil bit overstuffed, do you really need Cleric and Hexblade? Taking Cleric messes your stat distribution, and about hexblade, take into account that by the time you are getting Voice of the Chain Master your familiar will already be pretty fragile, so giving advantage may quickly become a 10 min and gp bump after each fight.

Maybe you could drop the Cleric level, and take only 1 lvl of Hexblade, those 3 levels could go to Wizard for ASI and subclass "capstone", or to Sorcerer for ASI, 3 sorcery points, and empowered healing.

I was seriously considering cutting the cleric level, but the heavy armor proficiency combined with the +1 from forge domain is very powerful in my eyes.

I could drop the cleric level for a 4th level in warlock to pick up medium armor mastery, with a dex of 16 that puts me on par with heavy armor, but investing that heavily in dex eats up even more stat points than the 13 wis being a cleric requires.

As for the hexblade I think it brings a ton of synergy to the table with sorcerer. Warlock spell slots are so good with flexible casting, plus eldritch blast and maximizing healing dice is quite good.


Btw, its no this build but... if you want an arcane caster full tank, a straight Bard can work wonders.

Boy howdy, you should see the bard build thread I made on here. It's not a tank, but folks were not happy with me for building a bard that way =P

[sophontteks]

You absolutely should drop cleric. The heavy armor is not helping you at all. Just put that wisdom into dex and wear medium. You have enough AC. -10 movespeed to get more AC when you already have plenty of AC. Not worth it.

Not sure if you are aware. Hexblade gives you medium armor and shields. That's all you need.

[PeteNutButter]

Heya PancakeMaster, I noticed 2 things about your build, you are writing Pact spells as if they didn't count for you spells known, they do, so for instance here you would have to choose only two of those 4.

Another thing, in your point buy you had 9 Dex, 14 Con, and applied Vhuman's +1 to Dex, it would be slightly more efficient to go 11 Dex, 13 Con, and apply +1 to Con. Remember points 14 and 15 cost double, so its generally preferable to apply +1 to higher scores.

With that out of the way, the build sounds a lil bit overstuffed, do you really need Cleric and Hexblade? Taking Cleric messes your stat distribution, and about hexblade, take into account that by the time you are getting Voice of the Chain Master your familiar will already be pretty fragile, so giving advantage may quickly become a 10 min and gp bump after each fight.

Maybe you could drop the Cleric level, and take only 1 lvl of Hexblade, those 3 levels could go to Wizard for ASI and subclass "capstone", or to Sorcerer for ASI, 3 sorcery points, and empowered healing.


Its I good thing I read previous comments because I was literally going to say each and every one of these points.

The cleric dip is worthless when you already have access to the spell list through sorcerer. Heavy armor isn't nearly as strong as it used to be in AL due to the TP cost of Plate/+1 Plate. The +1 AC (eventually) isn't worth it when its jerking your build around.

[PancakeMaster80]

The cleric dip is worthless when you already have access to the spell list through sorcerer. Heavy armor isn't nearly as strong as it used to be in AL due to the TP cost of Plate/+1 Plate. The +1 AC (eventually) isn't worth it when its jerking your build around.

I could re-do the stats and end up with a 16 dex, a 12 con, drop the cleric level for a 4th warlock level 4 to pick up the medium armor mastery feat.

I'm not sure it's worthit though, the cleric not only gives me an AC bump, but also continues my spell slot progression. If I dropped cleric for another wizard level I'd have to wait quite a while for the asi to get medium armor mastery.

[PancakeMaster80]

So you are taking twinned spell and the only buffing spell you have is shield of faith? Not that it matters. You will never ever, ever twinned. Your build needs spirit guardians to work. If you don't cast that they will just walk around you because of your reduced speed.

The build also has polymorph and haste, which can be quite good twinned. I agree that Quickened will probably be what I'm using most often, but it's nice to have twinned as well.


Use quickened to dash and dodge. Its a waste to just use it to cast an extra cantrip.

When I can recharge my sorcery points on short rest via warlock spell slots it's a lot better to cast double eldritch blasts a few turns in a row.


I think what you are looking for is Oath of the Crown paladin. Its a paladin with spirit guardians. No tricks needed to get a high AC. Great alpha potiential that makes you impossible to ignore. Giving your whole team a bonus to saving throws is honestly better then your twinned buff spells. More hitpoints, and you get access to fourth level spells earlier.

Paladins are great, but not what I'm looking for here. It gets SG way later and has far fewer spell slots than I'd like

[Citan]

I've personally found that high AC is what I prefer as a tank, the rough terrain of SG is enough to make it hard for enemies to leave my threat range.



I would love booming blade, sadly for this build I can't use it because it's from another book, and I think XGA's content is too good to ditch for SCAG.




Cleric certainly is quite good, however I think that the mix for arcane and holy spell lists leads to a stronger outcome.
Hi!

Ok, so, it seemed to me a very good tank right up to level 10. But picking Wizard?
No. Honestly, just no.

TBH, there are other ways to tank, but putting that aside and keeping the core of your build (Spirit Guardians + ways to keep enemies near)...
1. Don't care about Agonizing Blast, neither Repelling, just pick Grasp of Hadar. Now you'll have a ~100% chance to bring one guy closer to you.
2. Metamagics: drop Twin which will be overall a big waste to you since you want to use Spirit Guardians, since best buffs are concentration anyways...
Unless you planned on using twin Warding Bond, but honestly even with preparation it's still risky, a hassle to manage with friends not necessarily wanting to move in coordination, and that many more risks to drop concentration early. Pick Extended instead, along with Aid. Extended upcast Aid is a great use of high-level slots.
3. Wizard. Simply no. If you really want to keep caster for high level slots (which is indeed a good idea), either keep going Sorcerer (you'll have 30 feet fly which doesn't care whether you have heavy armor or not), push Cleric picking either Forge (even better AC) or Grave (honestly better imo although no heavy armor, the ability to impose vulnerability is extremely potent at high level), or pick Glamour Bard, which nets you a party-wide THP+free move as a bonus action, 5 times per short rest.
Or buff Warlock further to have short-rest slots for that SG (and empowering your Eldricht Blast further).

But Wizard is far too much an inconvenience for the little it brings, especially since you choose so many concentration spells while wanting to rely on SG as your main one.
(In fact, if really you wanted to tank, one much easier way would be to drop Wizard entirely, as well as possibly lower DEX, to get the required STR to multiclass Paladin -Redemption or Crown being the absolute best for you).

[PancakeMaster80]

You absolutely should drop cleric. The heavy armor is not helping you at all. Just put that wisdom into dex and wear medium. You have enough AC. -10 movespeed to get more AC when you already have plenty of AC. Not worth it.

Not sure if you are aware. Hexblade gives you medium armor and shields. That's all you need.

Maybe drop a level of wizard and the cleric level to take 5 levels in warlock? That would give me an additional ASI and level 3 slots on short rest. I could use that ASI to take medium armor mastery. I'd have to rework the stats, dropping con to 12 and dex up to 16, might be worth it.

[Corran]

Re-wrote the conclusion, hope it helps
It does. I missed that part before my previous comment.

[PancakeMaster80]

Hi!

Ok, so, it seemed to me a very good tank right up to level 10. But picking Wizard?
No. Honestly, just no.

I'm glad you liked some of it =P


TBH, there are other ways to tank, but putting that aside and keeping the core of your build (Spirit Guardians + ways to keep enemies near)...
1. Don't care about Agonizing Blast, neither Repelling, just pick Grasp of Hadar. Now you'll have a ~100% chance to bring one guy closer to you.

Grasp is probably a better idea, pair it with Agonizing blast


2. Metamagics: drop Twin which will be overall a big waste to you since you want to use Spirit Guardians, since best buffs are concentration anyways...
Unless you planned on using twin Warding Bond, but honestly even with preparation it's still risky, a hassle to manage with friends not necessarily wanting to move in coordination, and that many more risks to drop concentration early. Pick Extended instead, along with Aid. Extended upcast Aid is a great use of high-level slots.

I mostly took twin so the build had other good options that weren't SG, but I agree that most concentration options are taking a back seat to SG. You are right that aid plus extended is very good, I hadn't seen that.


3. Wizard. Simply no. If you really want to keep caster for high level slots (which is indeed a good idea), either keep going Sorcerer (you'll have 30 feet fly which doesn't care whether you have heavy armor or not), push Cleric picking either Forge (even better AC) or Grave (honestly better imo although no heavy armor, the ability to impose vulnerability is extremely potent at high level), or pick Glamour Bard, which nets you a party-wide THP+free move as a bonus action, 5 times per short rest.
Or buff Warlock further to have short-rest slots for that SG (and empowering your Eldricht Blast further).

I want wizard mostly for its war magic defensive benefits, +2 ac or +4 save reaction is very good, and the wizard spell list is good as well. I think those are enough reason to take it over further level sorc, since I still get the high level slots to up-cast SG.

I was actually considering dropping the level of cleric and 1 wizard level to bring warlock up to 5, short rest SG plus an ASI to take medium armor mastery. I lose a little con, but gain a bunch of dex, better warlock slots, and 10ft of movement.


But Wizard is far too much an inconvenience for the little it brings, especially since you choose so many concentration spells while wanting to rely on SG as your main one.
(In fact, if really you wanted to tank, one much easier way would be to drop Wizard entirely, as well as possibly lower DEX, to get the required STR to multiclass Paladin -Redemption or Crown being the absolute best for you).

The spell list is where the build is the most shaky. I agree I took a lot of concentration spells, if you had other suggestions I'd be interested to hear them, there are so many spells that I definitely missed some good options.

I don't think pally is quite what I'm going for, especially since smite doesn't work with my cantrips. It also puts more restrictions on the number of spell slots I have.

[Citan]

I'm glad you liked some of it =P



Grasp is probably a better idea, pair it with Agonizing blast



I mostly took twin so the build had other good options that weren't SG, but I agree that most concentration options are taking a back seat to SG. You are right that aid plus extended is very good, I hadn't seen that.



I want wizard mostly for its war magic defensive benefits, +2 ac or +4 save reaction is very good, and the wizard spell list is good as well. I think those are enough reason to take it over further level sorc, since I still get the high level slots to up-cast SG.

I was actually considering dropping the level of cleric and 1 wizard level to bring warlock up to 5, short rest SG plus an ASI to take medium armor mastery. I lose a little con, but gain a bunch of dex, better warlock slots, and 10ft of movement.



The spell list is where the build is the most shaky. I agree I took a lot of concentration spells, if you had other suggestions I'd be interested to hear them, there are so many spells that I definitely missed some good options.

I don't think pally is quite what I'm going for, especially since smite doesn't work with my cantrips. It also puts more restrictions on the number of spell slots I have.
To be fair, Wizard *can* be a very good choice, but in my eyes *only* if you just know your DM will push many "spells as loots/purchases" towards you.

Otherwise, it is simply -imo- worth putting yourself up to 8 STR and overall low stats.
You seem to think speed is not important, but I disagree, although it's probably also a matter of taste.
If you have only 8 STR and 20 speed feet...
- Not only can enemies managing to escape SG once have a pretty good chance to stay outside it on next round (because you just cannot catch up to them enough).
- Not only can (intelligent) enemies spread around you, forcing you to a painful choice (hence the Grasp of Hadar INSTEAD of Agonizing, don't forget you have only 2 Invocations and you wannt "automax heal" ;))
But in addition to that...
- You have no way of Grappling/Shoving enemies, which is yet one of the best way to keep them in SG.
- THEY however can easily make you useless, having one guy "sacrificing" to push you prone or grapple you, now keeping you in place for one or several rounds while everyone else goes around with a nasty laugh and middle finger to you on their way to hurt friendlies.
- You will be EXTREMELY susceptible to effects like reduced speed (Ray of Frost), shoving hazards (Web), restraining ones (Entangle), harmful hazards (pushed into trap, Spike Growth) etc...
I'm knowing spells well, however I know little about the array of monsters abilities, so not sure how pregnant this kind of threat may be actually when you don't face casters directly. But you may give it some thought...

I suggested Paladin mainly because of that, considering all provide +4-5 CHA to all saves permanently (Aura of Protection) and Ancients also provides resistance to magic effects.
But hey, it doesn't fit then so be it. ^^

I would have also normally suggested Druid, because they offer some many great advantages, but the non-metal armor is a blocker... That's why I feel either Sorcerer, Cleric or Bard would be better if you don't really know much about DM/campaign/friends.
Yet again, I'm just putting suggestions from an optimization perspective.

Considering that...
1. Fun should always be n°1 priority.
2. Making a "bad" character in 5E requires an actual effort put into it, and you are far from the minimum required...
If you want to play this quadri-class, just go for it. ;)

[sophontteks]

The build also has polymorph and haste, which can be quite good twinned. I agree that Quickened will probably be what I'm using most often, but it's nice to have twinned as well.



When I can recharge my sorcery points on short rest via warlock spell slots it's a lot better to cast double eldritch blasts a few turns in a row.



Paladins are great, but not what I'm looking for here. It gets SG way later and has far fewer spell slots than I'd like
You can't wait to come online at level 15. Few campaigns see that far. For all practical purposes you don't have haste or polymorph.

[PancakeMaster80]

You can't wait to come online at level 15. Few campaigns see that far. For all practical purposes you don't have haste or polymorph.

It's not really coming online, just another useful option. In AL you can spend a lot of time playing at levels 15-20, so what the build gets there is quite relevant. However, I actually switched out twinned for extended because someone pointed out a good interaction with the aid spell.

[djreynolds]

Its a good build and I like it and the idea

I would make certain to grab misty step ASAP, your low strength puts you at risk to get grappled and dumped, misty step could help get you out of it

[PancakeMaster80]

Its a good build and I like it and the idea

I would make certain to grab misty step ASAP, your low strength puts you at risk to get grappled and dumped, misty step could help get you out of it

Glad you like it =). I just redid the build a bit to remove the cleric dip and take fewer concentration options, since SG is the build's go to conc spell.

[PancakeMaster80]

Just did some major edits, removing the cleric level and shifting 2 extra levels to warlock. Also moved some stats around and redid a lot of the spell choices to reduce the number of conc spells I had.

[Throne12]

You dont seem to understand. A tank in 5e needs a lot of hp or a way to Mitigate a lot of damage. AC has a harsh drop in efficiency higher you get. I know you want to follow AL rules. But really good arcane full caster tank is a Bladesinger with good hp. I have a player that makes characters that are a pain to deal with and his Bladesinger was a nightmare. This was before egte came out

[PancakeMaster80]

You dont seem to understand. A tank in 5e needs a lot of hp or a way to Mitigate a lot of damage. AC has a harsh drop in efficiency higher you get. I know you want to follow AL rules. But really good arcane full caster tank is a Bladesinger with good hp. I have a player that makes characters that are a pain to deal with and his Bladesinger was a nightmare. This was before egte came out

I do understand that HP is a useful tool, but I think there are other mitigation tools this build excels at.

[Throne12]

I'm being a **** sorry if you want to play this build go head. I just dont like this level of mid/maxing .

[OverLordOcelot]

What exactly do you mean by 'main tank' here? This character looks more like someone who doesn't mind being in melee, but I don't see how you're going to 'tank' all that much with low HP and little mitigation. Getting 18 AC at level 6 is pretty common, and shield is handy when you have it, but you don't seem to have the HP or a lot of tricks to mitigate damage. You don't seem to have any good way to deal with being grappled - you have to burn a misty step and leave your 'tanking' position; you're pretty weak at getting out of regular grapples (+3 dex, but no acrobatics) and really bad at getting out of special attack grapples that require strength saves if you don't teleport away. I think you're overestimating how well a decent-but-not-great AC and medium HP do at dealing with incoming damage, and with the control ability of spirit guardians.

I don't know that this would be a bad character to play (though the lack of high level spells at high levels is rough), but I don't think it warrants the designation 'main tank', and don't think it will be nearly as effective as you expect it to.

Also, spirit guardians DOES have friendly fire, though people mistakenly think it doesn't. You can only designate people to exempt from it when you cast it, and only if you can see them. So any allies who are hidden, invisible, hanging out in darkness, or behind a wall from you can't be protected, nor can any summons or allies who arrive later in the fight.

Build has some odd stuff:
Not sure why you're taking shield master, is it just for the Dex saving throw bonus against single target attacks? The shove action is pretty useless with 8 STR and no athletics.

Not sure why you're taking so many minor stealth benefits without any major ones, making a point of getting stealth and removing disadvantage on stealth checks but not getting any flavor of invisibility in your spells is a really odd choice.

Lack of war caster is odd for a caster tank, it's easy to roll low one time on your concentration saves without advantage, and when someone decides to ignore you for a squishier target your AOOs are just a weak melee stab, not the spell/cantrip that will actually scare them.

[PancakeMaster80]

What exactly do you mean by 'main tank' here?

That the character can be the party's front line damage mitigating character.


This character looks more like someone who doesn't mind being in melee, but I don't see how you're going to 'tank' all that much with low HP and little mitigation. Getting 18 AC at level 6 is pretty common, and shield is handy when you have it, but you don't seem to have the HP or a lot of tricks to mitigate damage. I think you're overestimating how well a decent-but-not-great AC and medium HP do at dealing with incoming damage, and with the control ability of spirit guardians.

The build has shield, absorb elements, an evasion-like ability with shield master, the ability to buff individual saves thanks to divine soul and later war magic, counter spell, and dispel magic. AC 18 is on par with most AL tanky type characters, and it jumps to 19 at level 8 and 20 at level 9 due to half plate and medium armor master.


You don't seem to have any good way to deal with being grappled - you have to burn a misty step and leave your 'tanking' position; you're pretty weak at getting out of regular grapples (+3 dex, but no acrobatics) and really bad at getting out of special attack grapples that require strength saves if you don't teleport away.

You are right that I should probably put a proficiency in acrobatics instead of persuasion, although if something is grappling me then it's probably not hurting the party, so it's not all bad =P.


I don't know that this would be a bad character to play (though the lack of high level spells at high levels is rough), but I don't think it warrants the designation 'main tank', and don't think it will be nearly as effective as you expect it to.

SG is a great candidate for up-casting, so for damage output I'm not too worried, and the build gets lots of utility spells/rituals at lower levels for out of combat stuff.


Also, spirit guardians DOES have friendly fire, though people mistakenly think it doesn't. You can only designate people to exempt from it when you cast it, and only if you can see them. So any allies who are hidden, invisible, hanging out in darkness, or behind a wall from you can't be protected, nor can any summons or allies who arrive later in the fight.

I'm aware of the wording on SG, and yes there are situations where I would have to be careful of an ally, but compared to most AOE spells it has almost no friendly fire problems. A little party cooperation is all it takes to make sure I can see the people I need to when casting.


Build has some odd stuff:
Not sure why you're taking shield master, is it just for the Dex saving throw bonus against single target attacks? The shove action is pretty useless with 8 STR and no athletics.

It's for the evasion feature to deal with things like fireball. The buff to single target dex throws is a nice bonus, and the build would almost never use the shove.


Not sure why you're taking so many minor stealth benefits without any major ones, making a point of getting stealth and removing disadvantage on stealth checks but not getting any flavor of invisibility in your spells is a really odd choice.

I got medium armor mastery for the +1ac, the stealth thing is just a nice bonus


Lack of war caster is odd for a caster tank, it's easy to roll low one time on your concentration saves without advantage, and when someone decides to ignore you for a squishier target your AOOs are just a weak melee stab, not the spell/cantrip that will actually scare them.

Got warcaster at level 1 with the human variant feat

[PancakeMaster80]

I'm being a **** sorry if you want to play this build go head. I just dont like this level of mid/maxing .

Min/maxing is my favorite activity in 5e =P

[Throne12]

That the character can be the party's front line damage mitigating character.



The build has shield, absorb elements, an evasion-like ability with shield master, the ability to buff individual saves thanks to divine soul and later war magic, counter spell, and dispel magic. AC 18 is on par with most AL tanky type characters, and it jumps to 19 at level 8 and 20 at level 9 due to half plate and medium armor master.



You are right that I should probably put a proficiency in acrobatics instead of persuasion, although if something is grappling me then it's probably not hurting the party, so it's not all bad =P.



SG is a great candidate for up-casting, so for damage output I'm not too worried, and the build gets lots of utility spells/rituals at lower levels for out of combat stuff.



I'm aware of the wording on SG, and yes there are situations where I would have to be careful of an ally, but compared to most AOE spells it has almost no friendly fire problems. A little party cooperation is all it takes to make sure I can see the people I need to when casting.



It's for the evasion feature to deal with things like fireball. The buff to single target dex throws is a nice bonus, and the build would almost never use the shove.



I got medium armor mastery for the +1ac, the stealth thing is just a nice bonus



Got warcaster at level 1 with the human variant feat

I agree with the guy this character isn't going to play like you think it will. And when you have party members casting high level spell you will feel weak.

[PancakeMaster80]

I agree with the guy this character isn't going to play like you think it will. And when you have party members casting high level spell you will feel weak.

It might not, but I haven't seen anyone else try it so I'm gonna give it the best shot I can

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'm also wondering how this character gets 9th level spell slots? I don't think that's right.

[PancakeMaster80]

I'm also wondering how this character gets 9th level spell slots? I don't think that's right.

You are correct, the original version had a couple extra caster levels, just corrected the post to reflect the loss of a level 9 slot =).

[OverLordOcelot]

The build has shield, absorb elements, an evasion-like ability with shield master, the ability to buff individual saves thanks to divine soul and later war magic, counter spell, and dispel magic. AC 18 is on par with most AL tanky type characters, and it jumps to 19 at level 8 and 20 at level 9 due to half plate and medium armor master.

I don't know what your AL meta is like, in mine for tier 2 generally AC 15-16 is low, 17-18 is normal, 19+ is people who are serious about defense. There's a lot of people who do things like 'wizard, with 1 level drop for heavy armor cleric', though it may be just a current fad. Again I don't think this is a bad build, I just don't think it's as exceptionally tanky as you think, and I don't think SG is going to provide as much control as you expect.


I'm aware of the wording on SG, and yes there are situations where I would have to be careful of an ally, but compared to most AOE spells it has almost no friendly fire problems. A little party cooperation is all it takes to make sure I can see the people I need to when casting.

It's more than a little party cooperation if the DM isn't making all of the fights super straightforward - I've seen a lot of fights where players have LOS issues between them at the start like walls, wall of fog, and darkness, and if you need to cast it mid-fight those rogues who are 'bonus action hide' and warlocks doing the devil's sight-darkness gimmick' all run into problems. You might not expect to be near those party members, but there's a good number of enemies who have the ability grapple and move players around (Banderhob, Froghemoth, T-rex, giant scorpion, to name a few I've seen recently). That limitation can be really significant, and most online stuff about the spell treats it as 'no friendly fire', when in practice I've seen people forced to drop it. (Or do like I do and take an attitude of 'it's OK, I can heal you later').


Got warcaster at level 1 with the human variant feat

Oh, the problem is that "War Caster" is the actual name of the feat, "Warcaster" isn't lol. I did a search for the literal name since it seemed really odd that you didn't take it, and the search didn't find your mention because of the removed space.

[PancakeMaster80]

I don't know what your AL meta is like, in mine for tier 2 generally AC 15-16 is low, 17-18 is normal, 19+ is people who are serious about defense. There's a lot of people who do things like 'wizard, with 1 level drop for heavy armor cleric', though it may be just a current fad. Again I don't think this is a bad build, I just don't think it's as exceptionally tanky as you think, and I don't think SG is going to provide as much control as you expect.

Dunno what my AL meta is, I just started playing in my area, but this build does keep on par at tier 2, especially with the shield spell and lots of self healing it can do.


It's more than a little party cooperation if the DM isn't making all of the fights super straightforward - I've seen a lot of fights where players have LOS issues between them at the start like walls, wall of fog, and darkness, and if you need to cast it mid-fight those rogues who are 'bonus action hide' and warlocks doing the devil's sight-darkness gimmick' all run into problems. You might not expect to be near those party members, but there's a good number of enemies who have the ability grapple and move players around (Banderhob, Froghemoth, T-rex, giant scorpion, to name a few I've seen recently). That limitation can be really significant, and most online stuff about the spell treats it as 'no friendly fire', when in practice I've seen people forced to drop it. (Or do like I do and take an attitude of 'it's OK, I can heal you later').

As I said, it's certainly possible, and there could be instances of friendly fire, but I think the trade-off is worth it.



Oh, the problem is that "War Caster" is the actual name of the feat, "Warcaster" isn't lol. I did a search for the literal name since it seemed really odd that you didn't take it, and the search didn't find your mention because of the removed space.

Yeah my bad =P

[OverLordOcelot]

Dunno what my AL meta is, I just started playing in my area, but this build does keep on par at tier 2, especially with the shield spell and lots of self healing it can do.

The 'meta' is referring to the metagame, that is how other players play. It's a term that I first heard in tabletop 'build an army' games like Warhammer 40k and Warmachines, referring to things like "If your meta has a lot of X type of army, you should try to avoid bringing an army like X because people will be specialized to kill X".
Where I am, lots of people take either high dex and light armor/unarmed defense, 14 Dex + medium armor, or heavy armor. So an 18 AC is pretty normal instead of exceptionally high, especially for someone not using a 2-hander.

[PancakeMaster80]

The 'meta' is referring to the metagame, that is how other players play. It's a term that I first heard in tabletop 'build an army' games like Warhammer 40k and Warmachines, referring to things like "If your meta has a lot of X type of army, you should try to avoid bringing an army like X because people will be specialized to kill X".
Where I am, lots of people take either high dex and light armor/unarmed defense, 14 Dex + medium armor, or heavy armor. So an 18 AC is pretty normal instead of exceptionally high, especially for someone not using a 2-hander.

I know what a meta is, I just don't know what the Seattle area's meta happens to be

[PeteNutButter]

Ok so, this is going to sound harsh, but I still see lots of problems with this build.

HP are terribly low, 5 per level is half what most front liners are getting by tier 3.

AC is middling, but not exceptional.

War wizard is a trap option, since you are relying on shield to keep your AC in the good range. Using that reactino for anything other than shield gives all other enemies/all remaining attacks a free swipe at your "regular AC."

My tankiest character in AL is level 16 with an unbuffed AC of 28 but still regularly takes attacks. Crits happen, especially if you don't have a regular way of giving the attack disadvantage. You need a big pool of hp to manage that along with nonattack damage. Lots of high level adventures will have small mounts of "auto" damage that the environment will produce and whatnot. You're going to need more hp to manage that and crits.

I'd say you can fix many of these problems by replacing war wizard with abjurer. It gives you a nice hp buffer, and avoids the trap reaction from war wizard. Another thing that might help is the Inspiring Leader feat. That's a nice chunk of free temp hp every short rest.

Overall I appreciate the build detail effort, and frequently attempt builds that are "built" around one spell. In practice I often end up using something else entirely as the character levels up. Spirit Guardians for instance, while a great spell, is out-damaged by fireball in short fights, so you may find those sorcerer levels are useless in the long run.

As is, I suspect the build to do fine, but probably will be overshadowed heavily by an optimized party. Truly optimized parties kill things so fast that SG won't have much effect.

[PancakeMaster80]

Ok so, this is going to sound harsh, but I still see lots of problems with this build.

I came her looking for critique, I appreciate the feedback.


HP are terribly low, 5 per level is half what most front liners are getting by tier 3.

The HP is low, but when the build does take damage that's what the maxed out healing is for


AC is middling, but not exceptional.

Being able to shield or 1 of the other many mitigation gives a lot to this build's AC


War wizard is a trap option, since you are relying on shield to keep your AC in the good range. Using that reactino for anything other than shield gives all other enemies/all remaining attacks a free swipe at your "regular AC."

It's another option that doesn't eat a spell slot, since I know whether or not an effect like shield would prevent a hit, I can choose whichever is needed. It also offers +4 to a save, which is quite good.


My tankiest character in AL is level 16 with an unbuffed AC of 28 but still regularly takes attacks. Crits happen, especially if you don't have a regular way of giving the attack disadvantage. You need a big pool of hp to manage that along with nonattack damage. Lots of high level adventures will have small mounts of "auto" damage that the environment will produce and whatnot. You're going to need more hp to manage that and crits.

That's a good AC, what build did you choose?


I'd say you can fix many of these problems by replacing war wizard with abjurer. It gives you a nice hp buffer, and avoids the trap reaction from war wizard. Another thing that might help is the Inspiring Leader feat. That's a nice chunk of free temp hp every short rest.

Abjurer scales with wizard levels, making it severely under-powered given when this build picks up those class levels


Overall I appreciate the build detail effort, and frequently attempt builds that are "built" around one spell. In practice I often end up using something else entirely as the character levels up. Spirit Guardians for instance, while a great spell, is out-damaged by fireball in short fights, so you may find those sorcerer levels are useless in the long run.

As is, I suspect the build to do fine, but probably will be overshadowed heavily by an optimized party. Truly optimized parties kill things so fast that SG won't have much effect.

If time to kill is truly that short then my party is strong enough I wouldn't even need to be there =P

[PeteNutButter]

The HP is low, but when the build does take damage that's what the maxed out healing is for

It's another option that doesn't eat a spell slot, since I know whether or not an effect like shield would prevent a hit, I can choose whichever is needed. It also offers +4 to a save, which is quite good.

That's a good AC, what build did you choose?

Abjurer scales with wizard levels, making it severely under-powered given when this build picks up those class levels

If time to kill is truly that short then my party is strong enough I wouldn't even need to be there =P

You misunderstand my issue with war wizard. The problem with it isn't whether or not you know it'd work compared to a shield spell, it's what happens after that attack you blocked with the war wizard. It's only 1 attack. Shield lasts until your next turn. That is a very big difference, especially if you plan on being a primary tank. Your job would be to encourage all the enemies to attack you.

If you've played tier 3, I feel like our experiences differ. In my experience by mid tier 3 the combats tend to break down into rocket tag type fights with optimized PCs being able to tear through enemies and enemies able to tear through the majority of PCs. Most combats are over within 3 rounds. The ones that last longer, usually do so because of an enemy's high mobility, or a large amount of enemies (that are often too spread out for AoE). Just because it ends quickly, doesn't mean you aren't needing. Your character could make it the difference between it ending in a victory or a TPK. In more common fights, your character can have a huge impact on how much resources the party is forced to use.

Depending on spell level it takes spirit guardians roughly 3 rounds to out damage a fireball. If the fight is over in less than 3 rounds, you can see how that'll be an issue. If something really needs to die in a hurry, much better spells are available to higher level casters. Disintegrate is great for single target damage for instance.

I have a 28 AC through +2 Plate, Defense FS, +3 shield, +1 cloak and ring of protection. All but the +2 plate are evergreen/pretty common. That's a character before season 8 though, meaning he is loaded by season 8 standards. If I were to make another high AC character, I'd probably go unarmored or light armor to save on the TP cost of that plate.

Really, given those items and your current build you can get 26 AC with +1 Half Plate. Though I'd dump medium armor mastery (and the dex to 14) for more con.

Spend your Tier 1 treasure points on a cloak of protection. Spend some tier 2 points on a ring if you can find one. Spend tier 3 points on your +3 shield. That way you never end up with a +1 or 2 shield that is a dead item once you get the +3 (though trading is still an option). All you have to do to make it really work is just get more hp.

[PancakeMaster80]

You misunderstand my issue with war wizard. The problem with it isn't whether or not you know it'd work compared to a shield spell, it's what happens after that attack you blocked with the war wizard. It's only 1 attack. Shield lasts until your next turn. That is a very big difference, especially if you plan on being a primary tank. Your job would be to encourage all the enemies to attack you.

It's true, it would be a judgment call depending on what I was fighting, but the option is nice and so is the +4 to a save.


If you've played tier 3, I feel like our experiences differ. In my experience by mid tier 3 the combats tend to break down into rocket tag type fights with optimized PCs being able to tear through enemies and enemies able to tear through the majority of PCs. Most combats are over within 3 rounds. The ones that last longer, usually do so because of an enemy's high mobility, or a large amount of enemies (that are often too spread out for AoE). Just because it ends quickly, doesn't mean you aren't needing. Your character could make it the difference between it ending in a victory or a TPK. In more common fights, your character can have a huge impact on how much resources the party is forced to use.

Depending on spell level it takes spirit guardians roughly 3 rounds to out damage a fireball. If the fight is over in less than 3 rounds, you can see how that'll be an issue. If something really needs to die in a hurry, much better spells are available to higher level casters. Disintegrate is great for single target damage for instance.

3 rounds is enough to hit enemies up to 6 times each with SG, that puts int on par with or damage spells and it's very resource efficient. The build also has access to powerful 1-shot spells if need, not as good as disintegrate, but I'll take that trade-off



I have a 28 AC through +2 Plate, Defense FS, +3 shield, +1 cloak and ring of protection. All but the +2 plate are evergreen/pretty common. That's a character before season 8 though, meaning he is loaded by season 8 standards. If I were to make another high AC character, I'd probably go unarmored or light armor to save on the TP cost of that plate.

I only just started AL so I'm vaguely familiar with pre-season 8 characters, but I'm pretty sure that is more ac than a current AL character good get by that level due to TP restrictions, I haven't run the numbers though.


Really, given those items and your current build you can get 26 AC with +1 Half Plate. Though I'd dump medium armor mastery (and the dex to 14) for more con.

I've been thinking about that and I think I'll gun for amulet of health instead, it pops up in some pretty early modules so it shouldn't be too hard.


Spend your Tier 1 treasure points on a cloak of protection. Spend some tier 2 points on a ring if you can find one. Spend tier 3 points on your +3 shield. That way you never end up with a +1 or 2 shield that is a dead item once you get the +3 (though trading is still an option). All you have to do to make it really work is just get more hp.

Good ideas, once I get to those point I'll keep them in mind.

[Skylivedk]

You honestly don't want to remove armour of Agathys for anything if you have high level empty slots and lack hp. Not to forget, it's one of the highest steady damage providers in the game and has no save. Your much rather:

Get rid of Hex, Hellish Rebuke or take a level of Wizard earlier and drop Shield from your Warlock spells for Dispel Magic, so you don't lose AoA and avoid spell pick redundancy.

A level 8 slot AoA is 40 damage each time you get hit. 40 temp hp. With Warding Bond, effectively it's 80. Have a cavalier in your party? 160. Absorb elements (and get that over ie minor illusion which you have erroneously posted in your level 1 picks for your Wizard at 11)? 320 (ok not quite unless you start with something that's divisible by 8 and it's a rare case). That's crazy effective. Tested the warding bond and AoA in my last hexblade session. The yuan-ti brood guards were slaughtering themselves. Well, I did prod them along occasionally, but I think my GWM in darkness (so they couldn't even see each other get frozen to death) only contributed 50-60 and my Agathys between 90-120.

With AoA, you might consider dropping fiendish vigor and get Grasp of Hadar. In general, Grasp of Hadar looks really nice on your build. With quickened EB you can pull up to 8 creatures in a round. Considering how frustrating to are to be close to that is fun. Not really sure why Repelling Blast stacks on the same creature, but Grasp doesn't (and isn't that different in one of the two books where it's presented?).

Your build still lacks mobility at higher levels (thank you for not sticking to the 20 ft movement), but hopefully with a little help from your friends that'll pass quickly.

[Throne12]

If you play this build plz come back on here every now and then and tell us how its playing plz.

[PeteNutButter]

3 rounds is enough to hit enemies up to 6 times each with SG, that puts int on par with or damage spells and it's very resource efficient. The build also has access to powerful 1-shot spells if need, not as good as disintegrate, but I'll take that trade-off

I only just started AL so I'm vaguely familiar with pre-season 8 characters, but I'm pretty sure that is more ac than a current AL character good get by that level due to TP restrictions, I haven't run the numbers though.


Wait how do you figure a creature can be affected by spirit guardians 6 times in 3 rounds? It’d be only once a round. They have to enter the area/start their turn in it, not you moving towards them.

The TP system makes tier 2 characters from earlier seasons much better but by tier 3 it actually starts to even out. It looks like you end up with more TP than you know what to do with.

[PancakeMaster80]

Wait how do you figure a creature can be affected by spirit guardians 6 times in 3 rounds? It’d be only once a round. They have to enter the area/start their turn in it, not you moving towards them.

If I cast the spell, and walk the radius into the creature, they take 3d8, then they start their turn in the radius and take a second 3d8. There's a sage advice on it.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/61909/what-does-when-it-enters-the-spell-s-area-for-the-first-time-on-a-turn-or-s


The TP system makes tier 2 characters from earlier seasons much better but by tier 3 it actually starts to even out. It looks like you end up with more TP than you know what to do with.

That's good, my current archer bard is sitting at level 5 so it'll be a little bit before she gets to tier 3.

[PancakeMaster80]

If you play this build plz come back on here every now and then and tell us how its playing plz.

I plan to start playing this character sometime soon, gotta figure out the balance between this concept and my archer bard. I'll keep folks updated when that happens =).

[PancakeMaster80]

You honestly don't want to remove armour of Agathys for anything if you have high level empty slots and lack hp. Not to forget, it's one of the highest steady damage providers in the game and has no save. Your much rather:

Get rid of Hex, Hellish Rebuke or take a level of Wizard earlier and drop Shield from your Warlock spells for Dispel Magic, so you don't lose AoA and avoid spell pick redundancy.

I misread the up-casting on AoA, that's pretty good, definitely better than HR, I'll make that adjustment.


A level 8 slot AoA is 40 damage each time you get hit. 40 temp hp. With Warding Bond, effectively it's 80. Have a cavalier in your party? 160. Absorb elements (and get that over ie minor illusion which you have erroneously posted in your level 1 picks for your Wizard at 11)? 320 (ok not quite unless you start with something that's divisible by 8 and it's a rare case).

Could you elaborate on how these interactions work? AoA's wording seems to require a melee his against you, so hitting your WB target wouldn't trigger it right? I'm guessing the cavalier use's warding strike to then give you resistance so you are quartering the damage instead of halving it? I'm not sure of AE is being used to increases this further.

Also fixed the minor illusion thing, put identify in there instead.


That's crazy effective. Tested the warding bond and AoA in my last hexblade session. The yuan-ti brood guards were slaughtering themselves. Well, I did prod them along occasionally, but I think my GWM in darkness (so they couldn't even see each other get frozen to death) only contributed 50-60 and my Agathys between 90-120.

Sounds pretty sick, always funny when the enemies break themselves upon your retaliation damage.


With AoA, you might consider dropping fiendish vigor and get Grasp of Hadar. In general, Grasp of Hadar looks really nice on your build. With quickened EB you can pull up to 8 creatures in a round. Considering how frustrating to are to be close to that is fun. Not really sure why Repelling Blast stacks on the same creature, but Grasp doesn't (and isn't that different in one of the two books where it's presented?).

I was seriously considering Grasp, I'm currently on-board with FV because this build's biggest weakness is the lower HP values, but I could be persuaded to go back to Grasp. And I have no idea why repelling stacks but grasp doesn't, seems silly to me.


Your build still lacks mobility at higher levels (thank you for not sticking to the 20 ft movement), but hopefully with a little help from your friends that'll pass quickly.

That's one of the reasons I look longstrider. I'm also pretty happy with the adjusted version of the build that uses medium armor instead.

[Skylivedk]

I misread the up-casting on AoA, that's pretty good, definitely better than HR, I'll make that adjustment.

Definitely an option. I advised getting the Wizard levels in between to make sure you had no duplicates. Remember you can cast any spell you know from your Warlock list with your long rest slots and vice versa.


Could you elaborate on how these interactions work? AoA's wording seems to require a melee his against you, so hitting your WB target wouldn't trigger it right? I'm guessing the cavalier use's warding strike to then give you resistance so you are quartering the damage instead of halving it? I'm not sure of AE is being used to increases this further.


Sure.
A) you want the guy who cast warding bond on you to be somewhere very safe. Preferably in a healing spirit he can boogie in and out of.
B) you got it right with the Cavalier and I messed up. I thought it wasn't phrased as resistance, but just split damage which would allow stacking.
C) remember, you prefer mirror image against big and few attacks.
D) Fiendish Vigor is also temp hp and not that much of it. With Armour of Agathys being something you can count on having up, and temp hp not stacking, Fiendish Vigor loses relative value (it'll be used less hence less value) whereas Grasp helps you fulfill your main purpose: getting bad guys close to you where they'll eat damage from your Spirit Guardians.


That's one of the reasons I look longstrider. I'm also pretty happy with the adjusted version of the build that uses medium armor instead.
All non-concentrative buffs are good for you, more or less. Get 'em!

This character would have a lovely time 15-20 ft away from an allied conquest Paladin.

[PancakeMaster80]

Definitely an option. I advised getting the Wizard levels in between to make sure you had no duplicates. Remember you can cast any spell you know from your Warlock list with your long rest slots and vice versa.

I think I eliminated any duplicates, did I miss one?



Sure.
A) you want the guy who cast warding bond on you to be somewhere very safe. Preferably in a healing spirit he can boogie in and out of.

Oh I see what you mean, yeah if I play with someone who runs WB that'd be quite powerful.


B) you got it right with the Cavalier and I messed up. I thought it wasn't phrased as resistance, but just split damage which would allow stacking.

There must be something out there that is resistance without being called resistance.


C) remember, you prefer mirror image against big and few attacks.

Yeah MI is great


D) Fiendish Vigor is also temp hp and not that much of it. With Armour of Agathys being something you can count on having up, and temp hp not stacking, Fiendish Vigor loses relative value (it'll be used less hence less value) whereas Grasp helps you fulfill your main purpose: getting bad guys close to you where they'll eat damage from your Spirit Guardians.

I hadn't considered the anti synergy with AoA, and you are right that 8 temp hp falls off pretty quickly both with my use of AoA and as damage ramps up. I think I'll make that swap.


All non-concentrative buffs are good for you, more or less. Get 'em!

I hunted through all the spell lists to find as many as possible, given that SG is by far my most common conc spell.


This character would have a lovely time 15-20 ft away from an allied conquest Paladin.

That would be a fun combo =P

[Citan]

If I cast the spell, and walk the radius into the creature, they take 3d8, then they start their turn in the radius and take a second 3d8. There's a sage advice on it.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/61909/what-does-when-it-enters-the-spell-s-area-for-the-first-time-on-a-turn-or-s



That's good, my current archer bard is sitting at level 5 so it'll be a little bit before she gets to tier 3.
Hey again.

This bit incited me to feedback. What you describe can probably happen regularly on first round. Not on subsequent rounds. It will heavily depend on how enemies judge your threat level close-by.
It also completely goes against the "I want to keep enemies close by" policy (from my understand, you cannot force another occurence of effect by, on your turn, moving back and forth to artificially "move out and back in" an enemy from the AOE).

I'd say you have to really choose: either act like a tower, with little speed, high defense, and ways to keep enemy within AOE (so acting like an off-controller by reducing effecting enemy speed to reach others) OR instead go high damage and high mobility to let enemies think they avoided danger on they turn by moving away as far as they can then catch up with them again.

If you don't want to choose, then at least the basic 30 feet of speed (meaning no speed loss from Heavy Armor) is really the absolute minimum, and 40 feet would be better.

[PancakeMaster80]

Hey again.

This bit incited me to feedback. What you describe can probably happen regularly on first round. Not on subsequent rounds. It will heavily depend on how enemies judge your threat level close-by.
It also completely goes against the "I want to keep enemies close by" policy (from my understand, you cannot force another occurence of effect by, on your turn, moving back and forth to artificially "move out and back in" an enemy from the AOE).

According to that ruling you can trigger effects like SG twice per round on a target. First when they enter the aoe, regardless of whether or not they moved or you did, and second when they start their turn in the AOE. It's possible that kind of movement on my character's part won't always be possible, but I don't think it's crazy to assume it'll be happening a fair amount of the time.


I'd say you have to really choose: either act like a tower, with little speed, high defense, and ways to keep enemy within AOE (so acting like an off-controller by reducing effecting enemy speed to reach others) OR instead go high damage and high mobility to let enemies think they avoided danger on they turn by moving away as far as they can then catch up with them again.

If you don't want to choose, then at least the basic 30 feet of speed (meaning no speed loss from Heavy Armor) is really the absolute minimum, and 40 feet would be better.

I think this build has decent movement (30ft base + 10 from longstrider if need) and some relocation spells like misty step. I also took grasp of Hadar to help bring enemies closer to myself and my SG AOE. I don't see why I have I can't have reliable good damage output and high defensive stats.

[PeteNutButter]

According to that ruling you can trigger effects like SG twice per round on a target. First when they enter the aoe, regardless of whether or not they moved or you did, and second when they start their turn in the AOE. It's possible that kind of movement on my character's part won't always be possible, but I don't think it's crazy to assume it'll be happening a fair amount of the time.



I think this build has decent movement (30ft base + 10 from longstrider if need) and some relocation spells like misty step. I also took grasp of Hadar to help bring enemies closer to myself and my SG AOE. I don't see why I have I can't have reliable good damage output and high defensive stats.

Just read that again to make sure I was right, and it looks like you're missing a key sentence. Straight from the rules Q&A:

"Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count."

It only works when the creature is moved into the area, not the other way around, such as a teammate pushing or grappling and dragging them in.

So they take damage when they 1) start their turn in the area, and 2) when they move into the area, but not 3) when the area moves into them, such as approaching them with spirit guardians up.

[sophontteks]

Just read that again to make sure I was right, and it looks like you're missing a key sentence. Straight from the rules Q&A:

"Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count."

It only works when the creature is moved into the area, not the other way around, such as a teammate pushing or grappling and dragging them in.
This is right. The creature has to move into the space. If the creature didn't move, it doesn't take damage.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/53541/did-spirit-guardians-just-wipe-out-the-orc-army

This is why the spell works so great on the crown paladin. Paladin is a better tank, does more damage, and can use multiple push actions to proc spirit guardian damage.

[PancakeMaster80]

This is right. The creature has to move into the space. If the creature didn't move, it doesn't take damage.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/53541/did-spirit-guardians-just-wipe-out-the-orc-army

Oh cool, glad to learn something. Still works with grasp of Hadar though so I'm not terribly worried.


This is why the spell works so great on the crown paladin. Paladin is a better tank, does more damage, and can use multiple push actions to proc spirit guardian damage.

Does pushing someone from 1 point within the spells area to another point within the spells area count as entering?

[PancakeMaster80]

Just read that again to make sure I was right, and it looks like you're missing a key sentence. Straight from the rules Q&A:

"Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count."

It only works when the creature is moved into the area, not the other way around, such as a teammate pushing or grappling and dragging them in.

So they take damage when they 1) start their turn in the area, and 2) when they move into the area, but not 3) when the area moves into them, such as approaching them with spirit guardians up.

Good catch, thanks for letting me know. It should still work with grasp of Hadar though, so assuming I'm stand close-ish to the enemies I can still lasso them in =P.

[sophontteks]

Oh cool, glad to learn something. Still works with grasp of Hadar though so I'm not terribly worried.



Does pushing someone from 1 point within the spells area to another point within the spells area count as entering?

Good catch, and I was so excited about this potential combo too.

[PancakeMaster80]

Good catch, and I was so excited about this potential combo too.

Buuut, you could have a grapple specialist pull a monster with each hand through multiple spaced out SG for massive damage =P.