How do PoW and ToB PrCs compare?

[ezekielraiden]

There's a (now looking somewhat slim) possibility that I might join a relatively rules-relaxed "3.PF gestalt" game (I believe of the form 'porting 3.5e rules into PF whenever it seems fun'). I have a character in mind, sort of a "paladin/mage-knight battle commander," that I intended to use Tome of Battle stuff for. But if Pathfinder options are on the table, it seems looking into Path of War stuff is worthwhile, and what I'm seeing about the base classes generally says they're fine, and the disciplines are slightly better (especially since it's a lot easier to get access to other disciplines/continue progressing them with PrCs).

Nobody seems to say much about the PoW PrCs, though. So how do they stack up, particularly the initiator+caster ones? Again, assuming I already have DM approval for such a thing, would it be better to stick to Ruby Knight Vindicator and Jade Phoenix Mage, or are there PoW alternatives I should look into?

I may use this thread later to discuss the specific build (which, again, needs DM buy-in and thus I wouldn't even try to do it without that), but for now I'd like to focus on the prestige class question.

[JoshuaZ]

There's a (now looking somewhat slim) possibility that I might join a relatively rules-relaxed "3.PF gestalt" game (I believe of the form 'porting 3.5e rules into PF whenever it seems fun'). I have a character in mind, sort of a "paladin/mage-knight battle commander," that I intended to use Tome of Battle stuff for. But if Pathfinder options are on the table, it seems looking into Path of War stuff is worthwhile, and what I'm seeing about the base classes generally says they're fine, and the disciplines are slightly better (especially since it's a lot easier to get access to other disciplines/continue progressing them with PrCs).

Nobody seems to say much about the PoW PrCs, though. So how do they stack up, particularly the initiator+caster ones? Again, assuming I already have DM approval for such a thing, would it be better to stick to Ruby Knight Vindicator and Jade Phoenix Mage, or are there PoW alternatives I should look into?

I may use this thread later to discuss the specific build (which, again, needs DM buy-in and thus I wouldn't even try to do it without that), but for now I'd like to focus on the prestige class question.

Bladecaster is slightly stronger than JPM. Both are 8/10 casting and get basically the same number of maneuvers, but Bladecaster in terms of class features and because it gets more stances. Both are pretty easy to qualify for; JPM has an alignment restriction whereas Bladecaster doesn't, but Bladecaster does require two feats which you aren't going to use much. But Pathfinder makes feats cheaper anyways. Overall, Bladecaster comes out slightly ahead.

[Efrate]

Depending on your PoW class you are using as a base you get a fairly significant benefit from not multiclassing unless you have a specific trick a PrC offers you that fits your concept. DSP is really good at incentivising staying with your base class. Harbringer always sticks out to me, at 19th ignore all immunties with a strike. No matter from where they come from.

[Andreaz]

There's a (now looking somewhat slim) possibility that I might join a relatively rules-relaxed "3.PF gestalt" game (I believe of the form 'porting 3.5e rules into PF whenever it seems fun'). I have a character in mind, sort of a "paladin/mage-knight battle commander," that I intended to use Tome of Battle stuff for. But if Pathfinder options are on the table, it seems looking into Path of War stuff is worthwhile, and what I'm seeing about the base classes generally says they're fine, and the disciplines are slightly better (especially since it's a lot easier to get access to other disciplines/continue progressing them with PrCs).

Nobody seems to say much about the PoW PrCs, though. So how do they stack up, particularly the initiator+caster ones? Again, assuming I already have DM approval for such a thing, would it be better to stick to Ruby Knight Vindicator and Jade Phoenix Mage, or are there PoW alternatives I should look into?

I may use this thread later to discuss the specific build (which, again, needs DM buy-in and thus I wouldn't even try to do it without that), but for now I'd like to focus on the prestige class question.

They are better built with synergy in mind, overall, so they play smoother, blending caster features with strikes:
Bladecaster gets to kill spells for buffs, "heals" when casting and eventually initiate strikes when they cast attack spells.
Battle Templars get to cast as move action after doing a strike, heal as swift after using maneuvers, trade spells for readied maneuvers and some healing and ready maneuvers for his allies.
Of the hybrid PrCs Awakened Blade (psionics + martials) is probably my favorite. It gives a beefy upgrade to offensive and defensive stats, greatly facilitates recovering focus, gives you new toys to use your focus and eventually free you from having to choose which buffs are up by letting you have both.

Still in the caster vibe, but not a caster, is the animus adept. 5 levels, costs 1 or 2 bad talents to get in. In exchange, just about every damn round you get to cast 1 or 2 little toys that include concealment, ghost touch, teleports, forbidding teleports, mirror image, immunity to crits, more damage, dispels, debuffs on the ballpark of blinds and nausea...

Finally, the standalone caster/fighter PrC, Mage Hunter, is a crowning jewel. Spontaneous casting, magus spell list, a ton of anti-caster stuff and, properly built, burns spells like 3.5 psionics twinked for action economy. An excellent skirmisher with plenty battlefield control and tools to make spellcaster lives difficult.

[ezekielraiden]

These are good answers, but I see that perhaps I was unwise to try to seek only generic comparisons. So, the original (nominally) 3.5e build I intended seems relevant.

Over a span of time, I came to rather like a couple of very distinct things. First, the Bard/Sublime Chord gish, and second, the Knight of the Raven PrC (which, frankly, I will probably always ask for if I play Clerics in 3.5e because it's damned cool). Given a (very flexible, as noted) DM's approval, I thought it would be cool to combine them. Then I learned of the excellence that is the Crusader-Bard, using Song of the White Raven, and a few other things. So I thought, for a sufficiently flexible high-high-ish op game, what could I do with that?

My intended 3.5e-only build (again, assuming sufficient DM buy-in, which is not guaranteed *but* I wouldn't bother if it isn't there) was:
Side 1: Crusader 1/Bard 6/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/JPM +8
Side 2: Cloistered Cleric 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Knight of the Raven 2/RKV +8/KotR +3

The wonky distribution of PrC levels on side 2 is to avoid, as much as humanly possible, double-dipping initiator levels. This has both the benefit of trying as much as possible to avoid the "No Theurges" rule, and the ulterior motive of increasing my initiator level (which, if I have not failed at arithmetic, should be 1+4/2+15 = 1+2+15 = 18). Getting 9/10 Sublime Chord means 9th level arcane spells there, and getting 17/20 Cleric means 9th level divine spells as well. I would've liked to fit Lyric Thaumaturge in there but the prerequisites are onerous unless you can fit at least 3 levels (which I can't in the build as shown.)

Of course, this is borderline cheese, but the idea was to exploit Dynamic Priest (Cha to everything but DCs for divine spells), Dragonfire Inspiration, and turn attempts (for an extra swift per round) to be the best goddamn martial support around, with a little competent arcane casting when it's needed. Fluffwise, the character aspires to be a leader, in and out of battle, an ersatz Paladin who can take a ragtag bunch of misfits and produce a competent squad--or take battle-hardened warriors and turn them into plane-assaulting angels of assault. I was intending (with LA buyoff) to go half-battle-dragon, so the push into both Bardic magic and battle-power would be perfectly in-character.

So, in light of the above:
Do the Path of War PrCs work we'll for something like this? I'm not totally married to the "must have arcane and divine 9th level spells" thing, but the fact I *could* achieve it (again, assuming pretty serious DM approval/lenience) was one of the original motives. It looks like the Battle Templar and Bladecaster are the closest matches, but I'm not sure if they quite do the same things. Hence the thread.

[Andreaz]

Well, for starters, nothing in pathfinder advances to 9th level spells without being a full caster class iirc. Something like the sublime chord is out.
Full caster + battle templar, full caster + bladecaster and full manifester + awakened balde should get you to CL/ML 18 and appropriate spell selections, but there's no other caster + martial PrCs there to keep advancing both maneuvers and spells.

[ezekielraiden]

Well, for starters, nothing in pathfinder advances to 9th level spells without being a full caster class iirc. Something like the sublime chord is out.
Full caster + battle templar, full caster + bladecaster and full manifester + awakened balde should get you to CL/ML 18 and appropriate spell selections, but there's no other caster + martial PrCs there to keep advancing both maneuvers and spells.

As noted, the game would be blending 3.5 and PF content on a case-by-case basis (or perhaps only banning certain things on a case-by-case basis, not sure). So Sublime Chord would probably remain in play, since it really isn't crazy powerful (Tier 2 at most, and since I'd only get one 9th level slot per day without bonus spells or PF feats to change things, maybe not even that).

I'm definitely interested in the psionic side though. Awakened Blade could work, albeit for a different kind of character. More samurai/ronin with real mystic power than magic battle-captain, but it's got potential. Battlecaster does have great features, but it is too heavy on the "I make myself better" side. Great for a different concept, much like Awakened Blade. I'll keep it in mind if, for any reason, my intended build here won't fly, though I have other things I want to see in play if that happens (Synthesist/Ninja gestalt, specifically--it's a surprisingly good pair).

I was intending to make use of the two ToB PrC effects that interact with quick actions: at RKV 7, you can burn turn attempts to get bonus quick actions (presumably replaced with Channel Energy uses if the PF Cleric rules are in play); while at JPM 8 you can 1/enc get a free Quickened spell after a martial strike. That plus regular Quickening of spells means being able to dole out both support/control spells and maneuvers on at least a couple turns every encounter, and with Dynamic Priest, Charisma focus means I'll never want for turn attempts/channel uses. (Even two per encounter would still last 4 encounters a day at 20 Cha, and by the time the RKV thing hits at level 14 I should definitely have that.

My goal is spells focused very much on team support and control. Dynamic Priest means everything but DCs for divine spells can use Cha, making the character mostly dependent on just Charisma plus whatever physical offense stat (probably Str, it feels more fitting). Dragonfire Inspiration (which will be sonic damage if I can get half-battle-dragon with LA buyoff) plus regular Inspire Courage when the hit bonus would be better means automatically making allies stronger. Then healing spells and buffs on both sides, plus White Raven and other supportive/coordinating maneuvers, means being a strong supporter who is also welcome smacking bad guys around on the front lines.

[Andreaz]

That looks fine. PoW PrCs tend to be a little simpler to operate, so you have that facilitator as well.