[3.5] Spellcasting Oozes

[Thurbane]

So, there's a handful of natively intelligent oozes in 3.0/3.5 (Assassin Jelly, Cesspit Ooze, Conflagration Ooze, Living Ferroplasm, or Summoning Ooze).

What feats or series of feats would it take for them to be able to cast spells? As DM, I would love to see the look on my player's faces when an Ooze started casting at them (I know about Living Spells, and it's not what I'm looking for).

I'm not sure Surrogate Spellcasting would cut it. Would they need to cast everything as Stilled and Silent spells?

Looking for a RAW solution before I turn to home-brewing or Rule 0. Official material preferred, but no Pathfinder, and Dragon Mag as last resort only.

Cheers - T

[Deophaun]

Surrogate spellcasting would be enough to cover the somatic components for some oozes, definitely. The assassin jelly, for example, is able to form itself into a tentacle, which is good enough for a grell to cast spells with.

[Feantar]

Since oozes seem to have some control over their form (pseudopods) I think the somatic components might be covered. On the verbal components however, I have no idea. If these oozes can talk then they can cast the spells, if not, then you have a problem. Nonverbal Spell might do it, since it just requires you to make a sound, and the sloshing of gel like liquid is a sound...

[Hackulator]

Well, you said Dragon Mag was a last resort, but if you get down to that, the combination of Surrogate Spellcasting and the Awaken Ooze spell will get you there. Awaken Ooze turns a non-sentient ooze sentient and gies it the ability to speak, which covers verbal components, and then Surrogate Spellcasting covers the Somatic Components.

[Thurbane]

Cool, thanks for the advice so far. :smallsmile:

Do Oozes have a "face" slot? If so, would a Pearl of Speech work to enable Surrogate Spellcasting?

[Hackulator]

Cool, thanks for the advice so far. :smallsmile:

Do Oozes have a "face" slot? If so, would a Pearl of Speech work to enable Surrogate Spellcasting?

As I believe activation requires it be placed under your tongue, I would say that an Ooze definitely cannot use it. Also, it uses Tongues as the spell for creation so I would say the the intention is definitely just to give the ability to speak the language, not the ability to speak period (Tongues is only effective up to the range you can be heard, and does not allow you to speak with creatures that don't speak).

[Maat Mons]

You're sure you wouldn't accept psionic oozes instead?

[Thurbane]

You're sure you wouldn't accept psionic oozes instead?

Good suggestion, but no.

Hard ban on Psionics on all the games I run, and also all other DMs in my group.

It's just not a subsytem we use...

[Falontani]

Spell like abilities do not require components. If a slime can successfully meet the requirements of master of masks it may use several of the masks to gain spell like abilities. One of which is the demon mask gaining several summoning spells, which lets us enter several prestige classes?

[DrMotives]

If we get into other subsystems, binder oozes would be fun to describe to your players.

[Troacctid]

Surrogate Spellcasting works as long as the ooze has pseudopods or the like that can allow for basic manipulation. Otherwise, you'll need Still Spell for the somatic components, although Nonverbal Spell can handle verbal components.

[unseenmage]

Sadly Pathfinder has exactly what you're looking for in it's Simple Class Templates. Much like the Naga, a woman's head with no arms, spellbook, or spell components they still somehow just cast their spells.

By their RAW they can only be cast during combat though.


I only mention this much about them so you have a possible starting point for homebrewing. If it comes to that.

[Thurbane]

Spell like abilities do not require components. If a slime can successfully meet the requirements of master of masks it may use several of the masks to gain spell like abilities. One of which is the demon mask gaining several summoning spells, which lets us enter several prestige classes?

If we get into other subsystems, binder oozes would be fun to describe to your players.

OK, now I'm pondering an Ooze Warlock (or DFA).


Sadly Pathfinder has exactly what you're looking for in it's Simple Class Templates. Much like the Naga, a woman's head with no arms, spellbook, or spell components they still somehow just cast their spells.

By their RAW they can only be cast during combat though.


I only mention this much about them so you have a possible starting point for homebrewing. If it comes to that.

Good to know; we don't generally use PF material, but might be good for inspiration.


Surrogate Spellcasting works as long as the ooze has pseudopods or the like that can allow for basic manipulation. Otherwise, you'll need Still Spell for the somatic components, although Nonverbal Spell can handle verbal components.

Cool, Surrogate Spellcasting + Nonverbal Spell should do most of what I'm looking for. Although I'm concerned that both feats state or imply the creature must be able to vocalize in some form or another...

Conflagration Oozes are specifically listed as being to speak (Ignan).

[Maat Mons]

OK, now I'm pondering an Ooze Warlock (or DFA).

Just remember, invocations are a special exception. They do have somatic components.

[frogglesmash]

Instead of turning an ooze into a spellcaster, you could take the opposite route, and turn a spellcaster into an ooze. The Oozemaster is a 3.0, 10 level, spellcaster prestige class from Masters of the Wild that turns you into an ooze as its capstone ability,

[ben-zayb]

Instead of turning an ooze into a spellcaster, you could take the opposite route, and turn a spellcaster into an ooze. The Oozemaster is a 3.0, 10 level, spellcaster prestige class from Masters of the Wild that turns you into an ooze as its capstone ability,

Following this line of thought, how about a Hatchling Phaerimm / Master Transmogrifist using PAO for permanent oozeness? Or a Druid / Master of Many Forms?


Lastly IIRC being Blind is an ooze trait, just in case you haven't taken that into account yet with targeted spellcasting.

[Blue Jay]

If it helps, the Monster Manual glossary has an entry for monsters that can cast spells, with this quote:


"A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body."

Technically I think that was intended to refer to native racial spellcasting, and not necessarily to class-based casting, but the wording doesn't seem to actually restrict itself that way. I've always interpreted it as basically saying that Surrogate Spellcasting is a redundant feat, so I wouldn't require a monster to make special considerations for somatic complonents.

[unseenmage]

While not exactly an ooze the creature created by the Awaken Sand spell from Sandstorm is certainly ooze-like.

This awakened pile of huge sand moves and attacks like an ooze while being sentient, free willed, a Construct, and IIRC speaking a language.

Make it outta exotic sand or dust to give it superpowers. Check the Dust is Lazy link in my extended sig for ideas.

[frogglesmash]

Following this line of thought, how about a Hatchling Phaerimm / Master Transmogrifist using PAO for permanent oozeness? Or a Druid / Master of Many Forms?


Lastly IIRC being Blind is an ooze trait, just in case you haven't taken that into account yet with targeted spellcasting.

Alternatively, PaO the ooze into like, a rabbit or something, then True Mind Switch with it, psychic sandwich style.

Also, most oozes have blindsight iirc.

[Thurbane]

Just remember, invocations are a special exception. They do have somatic components.

I'd probably allow a pseudopod or tentacle to count...


If it helps, the Monster Manual glossary has an entry for monsters that can cast spells, with this quote:


"A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body."

Technically I think that was intended to refer to native racial spellcasting, and not necessarily to class-based casting, but the wording doesn't seem to actually restrict itself that way. I've always interpreted it as basically saying that Surrogate Spellcasting is a redundant feat, so I wouldn't require a monster to make special considerations for somatic complonents.

Great find, thank you!


Instead of turning an ooze into a spellcaster, you could take the opposite route, and turn a spellcaster into an ooze. The Oozemaster is a 3.0, 10 level, spellcaster prestige class from Masters of the Wild that turns you into an ooze as its capstone ability,

Following this line of thought, how about a Hatchling Phaerimm / Master Transmogrifist using PAO for permanent oozeness? Or a Druid / Master of Many Forms?

Alternatively, PaO the ooze into like, a rabbit or something, then True Mind Switch with it, psychic sandwich style.

While not exactly an ooze the creature created by the Awaken Sand spell from Sandstorm is certainly ooze-like.

This awakened pile of huge sand moves and attacks like an ooze while being sentient, free willed, a Construct, and IIRC speaking a language.

Make it outta exotic sand or dust to give it superpowers. Check the Dust is Lazy link in my extended sig for ideas.

Definitely interesting options, but not really what I'm going for...


Lastly IIRC being Blind is an ooze trait, just in case you haven't taken that into account yet with targeted spellcasting.

Excellent (and frustrating) point. :smalleek:


Also, most oozes have blindsight iirc.

I'll check on a case-by-case basis.


Assassin Jelly: blindsight 60 ft; "Although intelligent enough to speak, an assassin jelly has no vocal apparatus, and it attempts to contact others telepathically when needed."
Cesspit Ooze: blindsight 60 ft; no notes about communication
Conflagration Ooze: blindsight 60 ft; "Conflagration oozes speak Ignan."
Living Ferroplasm (psionic monster, so I probably won't be using it): blindsight 60 ft; "Living ferroplasm feeds off psionic energy and they are not known to communicate."
Summoning Ooze: blindsight 60 ft; "They do not speak."

[Efrate]

Do summoming oozes have any line about how they cast? Because give them intelligence via awaken or something and since they can somehow direct summons, so have them summon something to use as a mouthpiece. Should be reasonable enough. Thrall of jubilex plus oozemaster works in a roundabout way but you will have to cheese early entry to get into it all in 20 levels I think.

[remetagross]

A DFA Ooze is actually a great pick, apart from the ability to use SLA's. I wanted to play one in the tentative monsters-as-PCs dungeon Inevitability envisioned at some point.

-Oozes often have a high to very high Con score, allowing their breath weapon to score a high DC.
-The Lesser Invocation Humanoid Shape allows the Ooze to turn into any Humanoid, as per Change Shape. The rules about Change Shape say:



The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
[...]
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.

The first point means your Ooze is still blind, but at least it can reasonably camouflage itself and walk around in a humanoid civilization without tipping everyone off about its nature. Blindsight can help cement the disguise relatively to the blindness, as mentioned.
The second point means that if you want to have a multiclass DFA/spellcaster, or to arbitrarily grant that SLA onto any given Ooze, your somatic and verbal problems are solved.

[Mr Adventurer]

Would an invocation that grants Darkvision overcome native blindness?

[Thurbane]

Do summoming oozes have any line about how they cast? Because give them intelligence via awaken or something and since they can somehow direct summons, so have them summon something to use as a mouthpiece. Should be reasonable enough. Thrall of jubilex plus oozemaster works in a roundabout way but you will have to cheese early entry to get into it all in 20 levels I think.

Summoning oozes already have Int scores, they don't need awaken or similar. The cast Summon Monster as an SLA.


A DFA Ooze is actually a great pick, apart from the ability to use SLA's. I wanted to play one in the tentative monsters-as-PCs dungeon Inevitability envisioned at some point.

-Oozes often have a high to very high Con score, allowing their breath weapon to score a high DC.
-The Lesser Invocation Humanoid Shape allows the Ooze to turn into any Humanoid, as per Change Shape. The rules about Change Shape say:



The first point means your Ooze is still blind, but at least it can reasonably camouflage itself and walk around in a humanoid civilization without tipping everyone off about its nature. Blindsight can help cement the disguise relatively to the blindness, as mentioned.
The second point means that if you want to have a multiclass DFA/spellcaster, or to arbitrarily grant that SLA onto any given Ooze, your somatic and verbal problems are solved.

Yeah, I love DFA on monsters, so they can assume a humanoid form! :smallsmile:


Would an invocation that grants Darkvision overcome native blindness?

I guess it might depend on the wording of the ability; but it should work in some cases.

[Hackulator]

Would an invocation that grants Darkvision overcome native blindness?

RAW maybe technically, RAI definitely not.

[RaiKirah]

Surrogate Spellcasting + Silent Spell + Easy/Practical Metamagic (Silent Spell)

Should do the trick

[gimley307]

Surrogate Spellcasting + Silent Spell + Easy/Practical Metamagic (Silent Spell)

Should do the trick

Neither easy nor practical metamagic reduce the level modifier for a metamagic feat below +1

[ben-zayb]

How about terrible spellcasting? The advantage of Shadowcasters is that there are no foci, material components, and vocal components needed. Even somatic components only apply to spells and can be removed completely via a feat.

Bonus points if the encounter is in a completely dark cavern, especially one with magical darkness, in order to equalize blindness and take advantage of blindsight.

[RaiKirah]

Neither easy nor practical metamagic reduce the level modifier for a metamagic feat below +1

You are correct, and I am an idiot :)

[Saintheart]

Just logging here for interest and because I ran across it looking for monsters: the Reason Stealer out of MM 2. Has no native INT score, but it's an Ooze, and its Devour Mind (Su) neatly gets around prerequisite feats and spellcasting abilities by allowing you to leech them off a target you kill. Transfers an opponent's INT score to itself upon dealing a killing blow with a slam attack. For 24 hours, it gets (amongst a lot of other things) the opponent's feats and prepared arcane spells. The effect lasts for 24 hours.

So get a Reason Stealer that just killed a mage. Bang, it's casting natively.

[Thurbane]

Just logging here for interest and because I ran across it looking for monsters: the Reason Stealer out of MM 2. Has no native INT score, but it's an Ooze, and its Devour Mind (Su) neatly gets around prerequisite feats and spellcasting abilities by allowing you to leech them off a target you kill. Transfers an opponent's INT score to itself upon dealing a killing blow with a slam attack. For 24 hours, it gets (amongst a lot of other things) the opponent's feats and prepared arcane spells. The effect lasts for 24 hours.

So get a Reason Stealer that just killed a mage. Bang, it's casting natively.

Nice! I'm definitely adding that to the short-list of potential encounters.