Building a Barbarian/Fighter Tank

[Tokuhara]

So I actually have 3 questions here:

1. With concerns to building a Tank barbarian, which race is superior at this: Goliath, Half-Orc, or Mark of Sentinel Human?

2. Which path is better at being a tank: Ancestral Guardian or Totem Warrior - Bear?

3. At what point should a Barbarian dip 3-ish levels of Fighter (Cavalier in this case)?

Thanks y'all

[Man_Over_Game]

So I actually have 3 questions here:

1. With concerns to building a Tank barbarian, which race is superior at this: Goliath, Half-Orc, or Mark of Sentinel Human?

2. Which path is better at being a tank: Ancestral Guardian or Totem Warrior - Bear?

3. At what point should a Barbarian dip 3-ish levels of Fighter (Cavalier in this case)?

Thanks y'all


The Dragonmark is really good. Scales with Constitution and grants you a spell? Great combo, especially for a Barbarian. Half-orc should be chosen if damage is a concern of yours, and Goliath should either be chosen if you don't expect your team to have a healer or if your DM likes to have multiple short rests throughout the day.
Different styles of tanking. The Ancestral Guardian is good at preventing enemies from hurting anyone but you but you can die quickly without a healer. The Bear totem is really strong, but it doesn't really do anything but not die. Ancestral Guardian would be better if you have multiple melee squishy combatants you have to protect, but Bear will be better in a team of ranged combatants or if you don't expect a healer. Ask yourself if you think anyone else is going to need to be protected. If Yes: AG; if No: Totem: Bear.
As long as you don't have 5 levels into Barbarian while also having 5 levels into Fighter, it's hard to go wrong. I'd recommend dipping into Fighter immediately after getting your second Barbarian subclass feature (level 6). Just keep in mind that the Ancestral Guardian is really redundant with the Cavalier. The Cavalier just protects less and murders more.

[Tokuhara]

So bear with me here:

1. I've always agreed, Goliath is the tankier of the two normal Barbarian races while Half-Orc is decidedly the Damage man with a side of toughness (mini relentless rage), but seeing Mark of Sentinel, it has a decidely meh cantrip (still a freebie to have while I'm not raging) and a good panic button 1/day and a Benign Transposition style body block for my charge, as well as Intuition on Initiative (considering I'll likely be in medium armor with a 14 dex, that'll be a blessing) and perception (not my strongest stat, but every bit helps) and advantage on Perception and Insight while bodyguarding, it's pretty good. Just not sure how it stacks up overall.

2. Really asking because I'm not sure which way to go. I'll probably be starting Barbarian then going fighter after the game's underway, so would it be better to soak hits or to prevent allies from getting whalloped?

3. I'd agree there, though Bear's second ability is kinda meh. Powerful Build is nice, but getting Action Surge and Second Wind will always make me a better tank, in addition to the Defense fighting style (highish AC is something good to have in my pocket). And as bizarre as it sounds, I likely won't get PAM, mostly because my reactions will be pretty scarce where I can use it (Unwavering Mark or my 1/day Vigilant Guardian), although Ancestors would give me a wider berth of coverage if the mega-resistance is less useful

[McSkrag]

3. I'd agree there, though Bear's second ability is kinda meh.

FWIW you can pick a different animal totems for levels 3, 6, and 14.

[Man_Over_Game]

So bear with me here:

1. I've always agreed, Goliath is the tankier of the two normal Barbarian races while Half-Orc is decidedly the Damage man with a side of toughness (mini relentless rage), but seeing Mark of Sentinel, it has a decidely meh cantrip (still a freebie to have while I'm not raging) and a good panic button 1/day and a Benign Transposition style body block for my charge, as well as Intuition on Initiative (considering I'll likely be in medium armor with a 14 dex, that'll be a blessing) and perception (not my strongest stat, but every bit helps) and advantage on Perception and Insight while bodyguarding, it's pretty good. Just not sure how it stacks up overall.

2. Really asking because I'm not sure which way to go. I'll probably be starting Barbarian then going fighter after the game's underway, so would it be better to soak hits or to prevent allies from getting whalloped?

3. I'd agree there, though Bear's second ability is kinda meh. Powerful Build is nice, but getting Action Surge and Second Wind will always make me a better tank, in addition to the Defense fighting style (highish AC is something good to have in my pocket). And as bizarre as it sounds, I likely won't get PAM, mostly because my reactions will be pretty scarce where I can use it (Unwavering Mark or my 1/day Vigilant Guardian), although Ancestors would give me a wider berth of coverage if the mega-resistance is less useful

My bad, I was looking at the Aberrant Dragonmark, which doesn't have access to the upgraded Sentinel Dragonmark. The basic Sentinel Mark is pretty good with the Bear Barbarian to give you some well-needed utility.

As for which is better between the two Barbarians, hard to say without knowing your team.

The Bear Barbarian does well if you stack means of making yourself a more..."likeable" target. Things like Sentinel or other means of just making people want to get rid of you will go a long way.
The Ancestral Guardian does well if you can find a way to increase your own survivability, like Mobile (Attack boss, run away).

I'd say the Ancestral Guardian will be more fun if you enjoy helping your team, but Bear will do better if you find pleasure in how much damage you deal.

Other than that and figuring out what your team has, there's no good answer here. Most people prefer Bear, because you can't really fail doing it and it's the most generic solution to any problem (throw damage/HP at it!).

[Slipperychicken]

1. I'd rather be a human mechanically. But if you'd have more fun with the lore of the others, don't let that stop you

2. Bear totem.

3. Any time after the extra attack

[Tokuhara]

FWIW you can pick a different animal totems for levels 3, 6, and 14.

6 is kinda weak for totems overall. If I was whole hog into Unarmored, Wolf or Tiger are nice, but really that only leaves Eagle for a Medium Armor Barbarian. Because Bear and Elk are meh (Bear is vastly superior to Elk, but that's neither here nor there). 14th is going to be tough, because Bear is just great for tanking yet again (the 5' disadvantage against me is great), but I also love Elk and Tiger (quasi-trample and quasi-pounce are nice)

[Tokuhara]

My main concern is I'm walking into a blind game, where I don't know what my party is. I'm defaulting to tanking because as much as I use casting as a crutch, even devoted caster players need a break. And seeing how Barbarian and Fighter can synergize nicely in either tanking or damage, I wanted to go the road I haven't taken since PF about 5-6 years ago.

I have no RP ties to any of the races or archetypes (minus Cavalier, but that's decidedly a later problem), but mostly asking so I don't build a poor tank and get PCs or the odd NPC killed, and if something else would accomplish this task far easier, feel free to let me know something I missed. Did want Sentinel, but also planned on a not horrible AC to mitigate my HP loss.

Just wanted the opinions of the Playground here

[Man_Over_Game]

My main concern is I'm walking into a blind game, where I don't know what my party is. I'm defaulting to tanking because as much as I use casting as a crutch, even devoted caster players need a break. And seeing how Barbarian and Fighter can synergize nicely in either tanking or damage, I wanted to go the road I haven't taken since PF about 5-6 years ago.

I have no RP ties to any of the races or archetypes (minus Cavalier, but that's decidedly a later problem), but mostly asking so I don't build a poor tank and get PCs or the odd NPC killed, and if something else would accomplish this task far easier, feel free to let me know something I missed. Did want Sentinel, but also planned on a not horrible AC to mitigate my HP loss.

Just wanted the opinions of the Playground here

I'd probably just go with the safe bet. Go Bear totem, get Sentinel as early on as possible. Worst case scenario, you're in a team full of Bear-totem-Sentinel-esque characters who all hit things in melee combat and activate each other's Sentinel feats. Best case scenario, your teammates all wanted to play a mage but nobody wanted to play healer and you made the safe bet. Ancestral Guardian is a niche pick, and shouldn't be considered without a guaranteed healer.

[Blood of Gaea]

I personally think that 5 Cavalier/3 Bear Barbarian/12 Cavalier is a very strong tanking combination. Make sure to pick up Sentinal, and perhaps Polearm Master.

Just pick one of the generally good races and you'll be set, Variant Human, Half-Orc, Mountain Dwarf, etc.


I'd probably just go with the safe bet. Go Bear totem, get Sentinel as early on as possible. Worst case scenario, you're in a team full of Bear-totem-Sentinel-esque characters who all hit things in melee combat and activate each other's Sentinel feats. Best case scenario, your teammates all wanted to play a mage but nobody wanted to play healer and you made the safe bet. Ancestral Guardian is a niche pick, and shouldn't be considered without a guaranteed healer.
Sentinal doesn't trigger from allies with Sentinal.

[Tokuhara]

So Bear is the Archetype. So I'm removing Half-Orc (really lacks a safety net other than the Chumbawumba 1 more time per day, 2 with Orcish Fury), leaving Goliath vs Sentinel Mark Human

[Man_Over_Game]

Sentinal doesn't trigger from allies with Sentinal.

Huh. Was that always there?

[Blood of Gaea]

So Bear is the Archetype. So I'm removing Half-Orc (really lacks a safety net other than the Chumbawumba 1 more time per day, 2 with Orcish Fury), leaving Goliath vs Sentinel Mark Human
Of the two, I'd probably go Goliath. Just to make sure your party doesn't end up with two guys using Sentinal.

The stat layouts are pretty easy too.

Stat Array:
Str: 14+2
Dex: 10
Con: 15+1
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 8

Point buy:
Str: 15+2
Dex: 10
Con: 14+1
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

[Tokuhara]

So here's my question and more because I may be misreading hereb but can the same enemy trigger Sentinel more than once? Because while yes, if it hits, he can't move, wouldn't having redundancy be nice in case one Wil Wheatons?

And on a weird side note, I'd likely go Barbarian Main if I went Mark of Sentinel Human, because Advantage + 1d4 on Initiative does sound nice, even on a tank

[Blood of Gaea]

So here's my question and more because I may be misreading hereb but can the same enemy trigger Sentinel more than once? Because while yes, if it hits, he can't move, wouldn't having redundancy be nice in case one Wil Wheatons?
You only get one reaction, so no.

Well, an 18th level Cavalier could once per round, assuming the same creature provoked two attacks.

[Man_Over_Game]

Of the two, I'd probably go Goliath. Just to make sure your party doesn't end up with two guys using Sentinal.

It might be a little confusing, but he's talking about going Human with the Mark of Sentinel, which is a Dragonmark addition in the Wayfinder's book. It's an alternate Human that replaces the normal Human features with several others, including a teleportation ward that you place to protect people. From what I understand, he's not planning on grabbing Sentinel as a feat until later.

[Tokuhara]

It might be a little confusing, but he's talking about going Human with the Mark of Sentinel, which is a Dragonmark addition in the Wayfinder's book. It's an alternate Human that replaces the normal Human features with several others, including a teleportation ward that you place to protect people. From what I understand, he's not planning on grabbing Sentinel as a feat until later.

True. Though Sentinel Feat is very much within the top 2 Feats to take (alongside Lucky)

And comparing Golaith to MoS Human, we are really comparing the following:

+1 Con, Powerful Build, and Stony Resilience vs +1 Wis, Intuition on 2 of the most important checks, a 1/Short or Long Rest Shield and a situational body block with added goodies

[Blood of Gaea]

Of the two, I'd probably go Goliath. Just to make sure your party doesn't end up with two guys using Sentinal.

The stat layouts are pretty easy too.

Stat Array:
Str: 14+2
Dex: 10
Con: 15+1
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 8

Point buy:
Str: 15+2
Dex: 10
Con: 14+1
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8
I realized I overlooked something here. As a Barbarian you'll have to be using medium armor, so you'll probably want to change this up to something like:

Stat Array:
Str: 14+2
Dex: 12
Con: 15+1
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 8

Point buy:
Str: 15+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14+1
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

[Pex]

Do not underestimate bear. You have virtual double your hit points. It is a big deal. Get in the thick of things and let the bad guys target you instead of your party members. Use the stereotype Great Weapon Master if you need lots of damage early. Reckless Attack helps. Pole Arm Master is also good since you get to add rage damage to the bonus attack. I personally went defense taking Shield Master, but check with your DM as I did whether you can shove before you attack like you used to be able to. If you can't it's not worth it. If you can, trip with advantage then attack with advantage when it works without using Reckless Attack. Advantage on DX saves means you can benefit the evasion ability easier than others. You will not drop.

You want at least 5 levels of barbarian for Extra Attack. I went to 8 because I wanted what I get for levels 6-8. At 9th level I multiclassed to fighter because it's time to increase my offense power. If you need it earlier then taking fighter at 6th level is fine.

[djreynolds]

Do not underestimate berserker

Mindless rage is an auto pass on fear and charm, that means no resilient wisdom

Where as fanatical focus is only a re-roll

Its a thought, as a DM low wisdom saves are something to exploit

[Blood of Gaea]

Do not underestimate berserker

Mindless rage is an auto pass on fear and charm, that means no resilient wisdom

Where as fanatical focus is only a re-roll

Its a thought, as a DM low wisdom saves are something to exploit
Provided you don't specialize in skills, eating one level of exhaustion a day isn't so bad either. And rage can counter the disadvantage for grappling in a pinch.

I still personally that for a tank trying to draw as many hits as possible, Bear Totem and Ancestral are the best multiclass options.

[djreynolds]

Provided you don't specialize in skills, eating one level of exhaustion a day isn't so bad either. And rage can counter the disadvantage for grappling in a pinch.

I still personally that for a tank trying to draw as many hits as possible, Bear Totem and Ancestral are the best multiclass options.

Bear is the best, it's an awesome archetype. And you can switch totems, so bear at 3, tiger at 6, or wolf at 6.

But berserker has some good stuff. Even with resilient wisdom I have failed saves and been sent running away.

Honestly, just recklessly attacking in a look cloth should be enough to warrant others attacking you.

5 levels of rogue is also nice

[Tokuhara]

My plan is to lean into the idea of the Survivability Onion (Don't be seen. If you're seen, don't get hit. If you're hit, don't get penetrated. If you're penetrated, don't get killed) minus stealth (a big armored angry bugger is as stealthy as a wet fart in an elevator). So my plan is high-ish AC (Half-Plate and Shield with the gammut of good versatile weapons), Bear, and generally decent HP. So damage isn't priority one: ways to avoid slow and miserable death takes precedence.

[djreynolds]

I ran a battlemaster/swashbuckler half orc in full plate.

IMO, humbly, a rogue in full plate, should've been a fighter archetype.

You might try out a cavalier/swashbuckler in full plate. This might be a better tank.

Or trio them, fighter rogue barbarian

Strength attacks with a short sword

[Slipperychicken]

Do not underestimate berserker

Mindless rage is an auto pass on fear and charm, that means no resilient wisdom

Where as fanatical focus is only a re-roll

Its a thought, as a DM low wisdom saves are something to exploit

Every time I've played with a berserker he's eaten truckloads of damage and I wished he was a bearbarian. The bonus attack just isn't worth it unless you're sitting on some healbot cleric ready to fill you up with hp faster than you can lose it.

[Man_Over_Game]

Every time I've played with a berserker he's eaten truckloads of damage and I wished he was a bearbarian. The bonus attack just isn't worth it unless you're sitting on some healbot cleric ready to fill you up with hp faster than you can lose it.

I find that the Berserker is best in small parties or ones that lack damage. I find it also works best with Great Weapon Master. While the BA attack seems redundant, it does give the Berserker the option to not use Frenzy in fights against swarms (when you'll activate GWM's BA Attack more often), which means that Frenzy only gets applied during Boss fights.

Without GWM, the Berserker subclass effectively does +7 more damage per turn than a TWF equivalent. Compared to a TWF Zealot Barbarian, this is equal to:

3.5 - (level/2). This means a level 8 Zealot Barbarian will out-damage a Berserker. However, a Berserker with GWM and attacking with both the reduced accuracy and Reckless Attack each turn roughly gets +3 damage per hit, or +6 - +9 damage per turn.

With GWM, you're looking at dealing 24 - 36 damage per round (assuming you need a 10 on the hit die, GWM becomes a bad choice against higher AC targets).

A Bearbarian, with GWM, would deal 12 damage per turn.

A Berserker kills things twice as fast, but a Bearbarian can take twice as much damage.

----------------------

A Berserker is good for one thing, and one thing only: Killing stuff. If your team is already capable of dishing out damage, then it'll clearly be a bad choice, and most players plan their characters around dealing damage as their way to contribute.

[sophontteks]

Second only to tiger, Bear is the worst of the first totem options.Its also the most boring option. Highly over-rated.

Barbarians are already resistant to weapon damage, they have danger sense for dex saves, and they already have a huge pile of hp anyway. The resistance only kicks in if your raging, so it won't help vs. surprise damage. Oh, sure its nice to have, but the other options are much better.

Wolf is great if you have melee friends.
Elk if you are dipping rogue.
Eagle if you are straight barb.

My full barb went eagle. Free dashes allow me to be where I am needed without wasting my action. The mobility also allows him to grapple opponents and drag them over 40 feet per round while hitting them. The ability to break reactions is better then ignoring reactions. He can make the enemy waste their reactions to little effect, allowing the party to move about the battlefield freely.

At level 14 he can fly at his walking speed. Bear Barbs have weak ranged weapons. Flying barbarians are ranged weapons. With eagle he can fly 80 feet per round and attack. The utility of this is insane. Barbarians are resistant to fall damage, so they can happily grapple enemies and dash skyward for extra damage. They can also pluck enemies right out of the sky.

So, gain resistance to non-weapon damage only when raging, or be a literal flying barbarian. Its not a hard choice.

[Skylivedk]

Second only to tiger, Bear is the worst of the first totem options.Its also the most boring option. Highly over-rated.

Barbarians are already resistant to weapon damage, they have danger sense for dex saves, and they already have a huge pile of hp anyway. The resistance only kicks in if your raging, so it won't help vs. surprise damage. Oh, sure its nice to have, but the other options are much better.

Wolf is great if you have melee friends.
Elk if you are dipping rogue.
Eagle if you are straight barb.

My full barb went eagle. Free dashes allow me to be where I am needed without wasting my action. The mobility also allows him to grapple opponents and drag them over 40 feet per round while hitting them. The ability to break reactions is better then ignoring reactions. He can make the enemy waste their reactions to little effect, allowing the party to move about the battlefield freely.

At level 14 he can fly at his walking speed. Bear Barbs have weak ranged weapons. Flying barbarians are ranged weapons. With eagle he can fly 80 feet per round and attack. The utility of this is insane. Barbarians are resistant to fall damage, so they can happily grapple enemies and dash skyward for extra damage. They can also pluck enemies right out of the sky.

So, gain resistance to non-weapon damage only when raging, or be a literal flying barbarian. Its not a hard choice.

You are aware that you can have different totems for each different selection, right? You can be a flying bear, which is obviously a terrifying sight to behold.

https://davidlavallee.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/winged_bear_by_vorix.jpg

[sophontteks]

You are aware that you can have different totems for each different selection, right? You can be a flying bear, which is obviously a terrifying sight to behold.

https://davidlavallee.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/winged_bear_by_vorix.jpg
Of course I am. It changes nothing. The synergy is doubling your speed to double your flying speed. The difference between 40 ft flying and 80 ft is massive. Its a game-changer.

Nice pic though. If only bear totem gave more then just more damage resist.

[Slipperychicken]

Second only to tiger, Bear is the worst of the first totem options.Its also the most boring option. Highly over-rated.

Barbarians are already resistant to weapon damage, they have danger sense for dex saves, and they already have a huge pile of hp anyway. The resistance only kicks in if your raging, so it won't help vs. surprise damage. Oh, sure its nice to have, but the other options are much better.

Wolf is great if you have melee friends.
Elk if you are dipping rogue.
Eagle if you are straight barb.

My full barb went eagle. Free dashes allow me to be where I am needed without wasting my action. The mobility also allows him to grapple opponents and drag them over 40 feet per round while hitting them. The ability to break reactions is better then ignoring reactions. He can make the enemy waste their reactions to little effect, allowing the party to move about the battlefield freely.

At level 14 he can fly at his walking speed. Bear Barbs have weak ranged weapons. Flying barbarians are ranged weapons. With eagle he can fly 80 feet per round and attack. The utility of this is insane. Barbarians are resistant to fall damage, so they can happily grapple enemies and dash skyward for extra damage. They can also pluck enemies right out of the sky.

So, gain resistance to non-weapon damage only when raging, or be a literal flying barbarian. Its not a hard choice.

Just pick bear at 3rd and eagle at 14th. You don't have to pick the same animal every time.



Taking a little less damage from a fireball, however, is both boring and insignificant on the highest-hp character in the game.

You'd think that, but on multiple occasions I've seen that make the difference between a happy barbarian, and a barbarian who needs my cleric to drop what he's doing and heal him right that second.

[sophontteks]

Just pick bear at 3rd and eagle at 14th. You don't have to pick the same animal every time.
Why would I do this when I just explained why I believe bear 3 is the second worst level 3 option?

If you are worried about your barbarians hp. Something is wrong.

[Skylivedk]

Of course I am. It changes nothing. The synergy is doubling your speed to double your flying speed. The difference between 40 ft flying and 80 ft is massive. Its a game-changer.

Nice pic though. If only bear totem gave more then just more damage resist.

On the other part I'm with you. Super boring ability being a Bearbarian, and if you want pure class, go eagle. I also considered eagle 3 / bear 6 for a drag and drop Aarakockra. I ended up doing the Sorc/Rogue (twinning enlarge/reduce; big bird small prey) instead, but it was a close call

[sophontteks]

Not my idea, but someone here suggested elk 3 and eagle 14 with a rogue dip. That's a barbarian with a 110 feet movement speed and later a 110 feet flying speed (counting rogues bonus action dash.)
(30 base + 10 fast movement + 15 elk) *2 bonus action dash.

That's pretty crazy too. That barb can drag enemies 55 feet per round and later lift them up the same height for 5d6 fall damage.

Mobility with grappling alone is massive. It allows barbarians to force enemies into hazards and off cliffs at blazing speed, and it ensures that the barb is always on the priority target, forcing the enemies attention.

Tanking isn't about how much damage you can deal, its about forcing the enemy to deal with you.

[NOMster]

So I actually have 3 questions here:

1. With concerns to building a Tank barbarian, which race is superior at this: Goliath, Half-Orc, or Mark of Sentinel Human?

2. Which path is better at being a tank: Ancestral Guardian or Totem Warrior - Bear?

3. At what point should a Barbarian dip 3-ish levels of Fighter (Cavalier in this case)?

Thanks y'all

1. Beasthide Shifter
2. Either way with that race you're a monster.
3. Couldn't say.

[djreynolds]

Every time I've played with a berserker he's eaten truckloads of damage and I wished he was a bearbarian. The bonus attack just isn't worth it unless you're sitting on some healbot cleric ready to fill you up with hp faster than you can lose it.

I hear you.

But I've played to barbarians and tanks and have been taken out by fear and charm.

Mindless rage is auto pass vs fear and charm... unfortunately not command though.

Every archetype has a weakness, and I rarely used frenzy, as reckless attack and GWM dished out plenty of damage.

[GlenSmash!]

I hear you.

But I've played to barbarians and tanks and have been taken out by fear and charm.

Mindless rage is auto pass vs fear and charm... unfortunately not command though.

Every archetype has a weakness, and I rarely used frenzy, as reckless attack and GWM dished out plenty of damage.

Getting knocked out of rage is a killer. So bad that I'll prioritize getting Resilient Wisdom or Lucky before getting an offensive feat like GWM or PAM.

I'd rather miss out on some extra damage, than be incapacitated.