Making a multi class boss?

[gamelinkreviews]

Hi!

So I'm making a multi class rogue/bard final boss for a campaign, and I just have a few questions I'm hoping people can help me out with.

-Is the total level cap at 20? (Ex. Stop at level 15 bard level 5 rogue? Or can I make something like a level 15 bard and level 10 rogue for a level 25 boss)
-What rogue archetype and bard archetype work best together?
-If I can make the total level 25, what's a good balance for ability scores?

This is supposed to be the final boss, hence why if I can make him level 25, I will.

[CTurbo]

Swashbuckler 11/Valor Bard 14

He could cast a spell and attack for sneak damage every turn.

[Malifice]

Hi!

So I'm making a multi class rogue/bard final boss for a campaign, and I just have a few questions I'm hoping people can help me out with.

-Is the total level cap at 20? (Ex. Stop at level 15 bard level 5 rogue? Or can I make something like a level 15 bard and level 10 rogue for a level 25 boss)
-What rogue archetype and bard archetype work best together?
-If I can make the total level 25, what's a good balance for ability scores?

This is supposed to be the final boss, hence why if I can make him level 25, I will.

You can do whatever you want. You're the DM.

But the levels cap at 20.

Why are you making him with PC levels? Thats a big chore, and largely a waste (most abilities wont be used, and it creates all sorts of wonky nova issues).

What is it you want him to be able to do?

Your best bet is to simply use one of the NPC stat blocks around the place, and layer on top of that a few intresting abilities.

[gamelinkreviews]

You can do whatever you want. You're the DM.

But the levels cap at 20.

Why are you making him with PC levels? Thats a big chore, and largely a waste (most abilities wont be used, and it creates all sorts of wonky nova issues).

What is it you want him to be able to do?

Your best bet is to simply use one of the NPC stat blocks around the place, and layer on top of that a few intresting abilities.

I know the level cap is at 20, but to clarify, that's for individual classes or overall?

I'm making him with PC levels bc I want this character to be completely built from the ground up. He's a tabaxi rogue/bard who's gonna basically be an NPC until the party initiates a fight with him. Which, as they will see by another NPC at the party's starting level who will die immediately, wouldn't be wise until they're the proper level.

His whole thing is that he follows around the party (probably as a result of a magic item that he's encased in idk I haven't completely worked out that part yet). He's gonna be constantly taunting them and mocking them for being weak. Essentially he's agitating them until they crack/get to proper level to fight him. And for anyone who's curious - his name is Bedrageri (Swedish for Deception.)

[CTurbo]

As DM you can do whatever you want. Make him level 40 with a 26 Cha if you want to lol

I made a NPC Bard with 22 Cha and 2 feats despite being just level 5 and Half-Elf

[Malifice]

I know the level cap is at 20, but to clarify, that's for individual classes or overall?

Overall.

Please dont take this as being snarky, but If you're planning on DMing you should probably know this already. Just a tip from one DM to another. You really need to understand the rules and how they all work together before running a game.

Id really suggest sitting down and reading the PHB and DMG in some detail.


I'm making him with PC levels bc I want this character to be completely built from the ground up.

But why?

Like; there is no need. He's not a PC. 90 percent of his abilities will be superflous.


He's a tabaxi rogue/bard who's gonna basically be an NPC until the party initiates a fight with him. Which, as they will see by another NPC at the party's starting level who will die immediately, wouldn't be wise until they're the proper level.

His whole thing is that he follows around the party... constantly taunting them and mocking them for being weak. Essentially he's agitating them until they crack/get to proper level to fight him.

So basically, your campaign elevator pitch is 'a powerful DMNPC constantly trolls, mocks and annoys the Players for the whole campaign, before they kill him. Unless of course they get pissed off and too early.. in which case the powerful Mary Sue Troll DMNPC kills them all?'

Isnt that just kind of... forcing your players to get taunted and trolled and mocked for the entire campaign?

I dont know your players, but that's probably... not a great pitch if you pitched at me as a player. That campaign doesnt sound fun at all. In fact, it's kind of loaded with a lot of things a DM should never do.

I could help you with the NPC (and tidying up that campaign arc so its a ****load more fun) if youd like?

[Unoriginal]

Isnt that just kind of... forcing your players to get taunted and trolled and mocked for the entire campaign?

Basically.



I dont know your players, but that's probably... not a great pitch if you pitched at me as a player. That campaign doesnt sound fun at all. In fact, it's kind of loaded with a lot of things a DM should never do.

Yeah, I've had DMs who did the same. It's annoying and just lead to pissed off players.



I could help you with the NPC (and tidying up that campaign arc so its a ****load more fun) if youd like?

I can also help if you want, OP.

[Citan]

Hi OP!


Overall.

Please dont take this as being snarky, but If you're planning on DMing you should probably know this already. Just a tip from one DM to another. You really need to understand the rules and how they all work together before running a game.

Id really suggest sitting down and reading the PHB and DMG in some detail.



But why?

Like; there is no need. He's not a PC. 90 percent of his abilities will be superflous.

So basically, your campaign elevator pitch is 'a powerful DMNPC constantly trolls, mocks and annoys the Players for the whole campaign, before they kill him. Unless of course they get pissed off and too early.. in which case the powerful Mary Sue Troll DMNPC kills them all?'

Isnt that just kind of... forcing your players to get taunted and trolled and mocked for the entire campaign?

I dont know your players, but that's probably... not a great pitch if you pitched at me as a player. That campaign doesnt sound fun at all. In fact, it's kind of loaded with a lot of things a DM should never do.

I could help you with the NPC (and tidying up that campaign arc so its a ****load more fun) if youd like?
I'll have to plus Malifice's comment.

I would have understood the objective of class-based character in some scenarios (your players like characters they may end up controlling/playing for one reason or another, or you really make it up from level 1 and you find easier to make him evolve depending on party needs) but none of the reasons you gave seem enough to justify the hassle.

I'll also agree with Malifice that, unless your trope is something you actually discussed with players or are confident they will appreciate this kind of interaction, I feel this will backfire, possibly hard.

It does not mean you have to make a merry-go-friendly NPC either, he can be snarky at times.
But I'd advise you to actually build a true objective to follow that would legitimate the fact he travels with party (using them as bodyguards, being a spy for an entity -then progressively building up its own goals-, being actually an ally but forced to go against them at some point...).

[Bloodcloud]

Hi!

So I'm making a multi class rogue/bard final boss for a campaign, and I just have a few questions I'm hoping people can help me out with.

-Is the total level cap at 20? (Ex. Stop at level 15 bard level 5 rogue? Or can I make something like a level 15 bard and level 10 rogue for a level 25 boss)
-What rogue archetype and bard archetype work best together?
-If I can make the total level 25, what's a good balance for ability scores?

This is supposed to be the final boss, hence why if I can make him level 25, I will.

Do not do this.

Go read the DM's guide section on building monster, and build him like that.

Also, your players will either attack him too soon and all get killed, or find a clever way to pin him and killing him way earlier than you thought.

Trust me. Experience talking here.

Sooo... just don't. Introduce npc with the potential of becoming recurring vilains. But don't get too attached. And for the love of Olidammara, don't build monster like PCs. Not even DMPCS

[Rukelnikov]

Hi!

So I'm making a multi class rogue/bard final boss for a campaign, and I just have a few questions I'm hoping people can help me out with.

-Is the total level cap at 20? (Ex. Stop at level 15 bard level 5 rogue? Or can I make something like a level 15 bard and level 10 rogue for a level 25 boss)
-What rogue archetype and bard archetype work best together?
-If I can make the total level 25, what's a good balance for ability scores?

This is supposed to be the final boss, hence why if I can make him level 25, I will.

As most everyone is telling you here, antagonists shouldn't be created as PCs, and for the most part they are right.

However if you wanna make it so, the only advice I can give you is, we did epic levels by basically ignoring the lvl 20 cap. We didn't use any class above 20 since there are no class features written for those levels (there's a 3rd party book that deals on that if you care), and we didn't increase spells per day past what lvl 20 table has. Apart from that, the system works perfectly fine going above 20, is perfectly doable, your proficiency bonus keeps increasing every four levels so +7 at 21st, +8 at 25th etc.

The one thing though, is that going well into epics will mean bounded accuracy may be less bounded depending on the builds in question, and some of the low CR things are not gonna be doing pretty much anything, but hey, those are epic characters after all.