What are advantages of Padlock vs Pure Paladin/little dip?

[Alucard89]

From what I read Padlock (or Hexadin) is considered a very strong multiclass build. In most cases I have seen people recommending 13/7 with 1st level of Hexblade being taken as level 2 or as level 7.

So my question is- what is advantage of Padlock vs Pure Paladin?

You get less high level smites per fight (when you go full NOVA mode) but more smites per day due to short rest slots. You get Agonizing Blast, Devil Sight + Darkness. You get Eldritch Smite which allow you knock target prone for advantage to followup with rest of your attacks with Divine Smites on them.

You can maybe get Lifedrinker so +5 to damage but I don't think it's worth over Improved Divine Smites, especially for loosing 3rd level Paladin spells (like Haste for Vengeance).

Pure Paladin get's more slots for Smites faster but they are once per day. However if one plays clever is save them for boss, it should provide more on-demand NOVA than Padlock. You also don't delay caster progression that much.

There must be stuff I don't see but for me- more than 1 or 3 levels of Hexblade into Paladin doesn't seem that good to invest? What do I miss?

[djreynolds]

Your aura's are for everyone, that fighter next you gets that bonus too.

But no one is going to blame you for dipping with a paladin, IMO, 6th level paladin is a good chassis

[Ganymede]

Pure paladins don't have to come up with a background contrivance in order to hang a lampshade on a warlock multiclass.

[MaxWilson]

Pure paladins don't have to come up with a background contrivance in order to hang a lampshade on a warlock multiclass.

This was more of an issue before Celestialocks came out in Xanathar's. Nowadays there is no fluff conflict at all. Good creature mentors good paladin, done.

[VoxRationis]

Feylock/Ancients Paladin also meshes well without tonal conflict. I rather want to play one sometime.

[BreaktheStatue]

I recently finished-up a Vengadin 12/Hexblade 4.

The 4 into warlock is probably more than I would have taken otherwise, but I knew the campaign was close to coming to a close when we came-up to 16, so I just took Hexblade 4 for the feat.

The main argument I would make for going more into warlock than 1-3 levels is that more warlock incantations could help break-up the monotony of your rotation if you're bored.


Pure paladins don't have to come up with a background contrivance in order to hang a lampshade on a warlock multiclass.

Yeah, this was an issue, and given that most warlock dips seem to be into hexblade, I don't think it's as easy to come-up with an answer as with the feylock/celestial alternatives mentioned.

I had a thing on how I made a pact with the weapon because I wanted to be as effective as possible in executing my Oath of Vengeance, but it was a **** excuse, my DM was extremely permissive in general, and I felt a little guilty about it afterward.

[Alucard89]

What I also wonder is: Is Eldritch Smite + Divine Smite Crit stack worth alone for going heavy in Warlock when we grab Vengeance Paladin. I am not good at math so it may only look good on paper.

So let's say we do Paladin 9/Warlock (Hex) 7. At level 16 we will have slots:

4/3/2 + 2x 4th level from Warlock.

To compare Paladin at level 16 would have:

4/3/3/2 - so only one 3rd level slot more, same amount of 4th level slots. However he would also have IDS.

So let's take 9/7 first:

PAM + Haste = 4 attacks per turn + maybe PAM reaction attack at first. We attack with advantage. We crit fish. We use our lower level slots for normal attacks, waiting for crit. So we will use our 1x 4k8 slot and our 3x 3k8 slots. We We got crit and we use both of our 2 Warlock slots in one crit (Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite). Both are 5k8 damage.

Let's say we use Spear: That results in 2k6 + 8 (5 + 2 Dueling + 1 assuming simple magi weapon) + 10k8 + 10k8. Which should be average 7 + 8 + 45 + 45 = 105 dmg from one attack.

We burn both our 4th level slots for that, but they are short rest. But now we are stuck with 2k8 Slots only for rest of Boss fight.

Now Question is: Mathematically is it worth over having Improved Divine Smites and normal Smites ? We can get IDS on level 18 but is it worth to sacrifice them early for that Crit Nova?

Because even if we continue with Warlock after that (11 levels assuming 9 in Paladin) we will only have at level 20 3x 5th level slots, which is still only 5k8 Divine Smite and 6k8 one per turn Eldritch Smite.

While if we were 20 level Paladin (or 19 with 1 level dip) we would have total of 5x 5k8 Divine Smites + Improved Divine Smites so 5x 6k8 Smites.

However in one critical hit and 2 Warlock Slots burnt we get total of (level 16) 10k8 + 10k8 Smites, so 20k8 which is worth 4x 5k8 non-critical Smites.

Since Warlock 5th level slots don't really boost our Divine Smites, we could go after level 16- 2 more levels of Paladin for IDS on 18 and have potential Critical Hit Nova of: 22k8 + weapon + stat damage. Or we could forget Both, stick to level 9/7 and grab 3 levels of Champion to crit fish more with 19-20 crits and Action Surge.

What is mathematically better? Can it even be calculated. We talk about full smite mode on boss (VoE + Haste + PAM).

[Benny89]

However in one critical hit and 2 Warlock Slots burnt we get total of (level 16) 10k8 + 10k8 Smites, so 20k8 which is worth 4x 5k8 non-critical Smites.



While in theory this is true, remember that there is no guarantee to crit in your turn, even with 4 attacks with Advantage.

I think that on level 16 the 9/7 build is better option, because you have almost same number of slots as level 16 Paladin (one less 3rd level) with better crit-Nova and short rest slots. However let's see how it goes on max level.

But let's compare level 20 Vengeance Paladin who has 5x 5k8 smites ready vs let's say 13/7 Vengeance Padlock who will have 3x 5k8 Smites ready. Both have IDS. Both PAM + Haste.

Let's say we will crit once in first turn with 4 attacks.

So level 20 V-Paladin:

3x 1k6 + 8 + 6k8 = 10,5 + 24 + 81 = 115,5 average

1x crit for 2k6 + 8 + 12k8 = 7 + 8 + 54 = 66 average.

Total first turn with one crit assuming all hits hit = 181,5 dmg. We have used total of 4x 5k8 Smites with Paladin. We still have one 5k8 Left.

Now lets' take V-Paladin 13/Hexblade 7, same scenario, we save our E-Smite and D-Smite from Warlock slots for Crit, while we use your one 5k8 slot left in first attack and 2x 4k8 in 2 attacks:

1k6 + 8 + 6k8 = 3,5 + 8 + 27 = 38,5
2x 1k6 + 8 + 5k8 = 2x (3,5 + 8 + 22, 5) = 68

1x Crit for 2k6 + 8 + 2k8 + 10k8 + 10k8 = 7 + 8 + 9 + 45 + 45 = 114 dmg.

Total first turn with one crit assuming all hits hit = 220,5.

So: assuming we will crit during the fight, Paladin 13/Warlock 7 with deal more Nova in first turn than pure Paladin.

However after that in second turn:

Paladin still has 1x 5k8 smite and 3x 4k8 Smites for next turn for total potential of 4k6 + 32 + 4k8 + 17k8 damage in next turn (no crit) for total of: 140,5 damage.

While Paladin 13/Warlock 7 has in next turn: 1x 4k8 Smite, 2x 3k8 Smites (because we used Haste) and 1x 2k8 Smite for total potential of: 4k6 + 32 + 4k8 + 10k8 =109 dmg

ERROR: forgot PAM is 1k4, but since I used 1k6 everywhere it won't change the conclusion.

Summary:

Assuming perfect scenario, 4 attacks hit each turn, one crit in first turn, total 2 turns:

Level 20 Paladin total NOVA: 181,5 + 140,5 = 322 damage
Paladin 13/Warlock 7 total NOVA: 220,5 + 109= 329,5 damage

So assuming of course perfect scenario with one crit your Nova is 7,5 damage higher on average on Paladin 13/7.

However situation changes dramatically if we don't crit in 2 turns at all: more 5k8 slots of Paladin will win in Nova with Padlock. And if Padlock saves that 2x 5k8 slots for crit and crit won't happen- duh.... he will fall really hard behind pure Paladin who will just burn his 5k8 slots.

We could and should calculate average crit chance + hit chance etc. but this is assuming you will get your perfect VoE fight.

[Pex]

The main purpose, in my opinion, for a paladin to dip into warlock (doesn't have to be hexblade) or sorcerer is to get a decent range attack via Cantrip. Range attacks are the paladin's weakness. He doesn't have any. While you can be a DX base paladin they rarely are and even so you cannot smite with a bow. Paladins are about melee. Multiclassing gives you the range attack you lack.

Sorcerer gives Fire Bolt/Ray of Frost/Chill Touch. It's something decent that holds you over until you get into melee. As a side benefit you get the Shield spell which is amazing for a paladin in plate armor and thanks to Xanathar you can get Absorb Elements as well. Warlock gives you Eldritch Blast, and it's worth the two levels to add CH modifier damage to each one plus one other Invocation you find cool.

[JackPhoenix]

Padlock can keep your stuff from being stolen, unless the thief has proficiency in thieves' tools. Paladin will actually catch the thief and may have other functions.

[Alucard89]

snip


Thanks for calculations. Seems like Relying on that crit even with Vengeance is not that smart. It may happen, but it might not happen at all...

But recharging that 2x 5k8 slots per short rest allow for some good consistent Nova during the day vs Paladin who has to save his slots for that "big" encounter.

Could anyone calculate a chance for crit with 4 attacks per turn for 2 turns with Advantage, 20 in attack stat, level 16 and +1 weapon?

Btw @Benny89, I think you also forgot that your pure Paladin would have Soul of Vengeance, adding another 1 attack per turn probably vs boss, which I guess would give him higher nova in you final summary. But nevertheless I get it.

Seems like best would be to just go 9/1 and then decide what to take...

[gjf2a]

The main purpose, in my opinion, for a paladin to dip into warlock (doesn't have to be hexblade) or sorcerer is to get a decent range attack via Cantrip. Range attacks are the paladin's weakness. He doesn't have any. While you can be a DX base paladin they rarely are and even so you cannot smite with a bow. Paladins are about melee. Multiclassing gives you the range attack you lack.

It seems that the Magic Initiate feat could address this without having to multiclass.

[VoxRationis]

What's with the XkY notation, incidentally?

[Pex]

It seems that the Magic Initiate feat could address this without having to multiclass.

Yes it could. It's also possible the player wants his ASI/Feat choices for other important things. Multiclassing allows him those ASI/Feat choices and a range attack. I did for my paladin. I needed an ASI for ST 18, an ASI for CH 16, and Resilient CON for the concentration checks and hit points since CO was 15. I was level 8. The party started to face more flying creatures and encounters starting at greater distances. Me doing nothing for lack of a decent range attack was starting to hurt the party rather than be an inconvenience for this particular game, so I multiclassed Sorcerer. The DM liked how it fit into campaign circumstances, so it was win-win-win for fun of playing, increase in versatility, and enhancing the campaign story.

[Benny89]

What's with the XkY notation, incidentally?

You mean why "1k6" instead of "1d6"? In my language "dice" means "kostka" which was always used in translated books/cRPGs, hence why I got use to K instead of D. Almost every person I know in my country says "K" instead of "d". The only people that say "d" are those who got into RPGs using english books only.


It seems that the Magic Initiate feat could address this without having to multiclass.

Yes, but you dip Hexblade to get SAD CHA. Which is one of best things that could happen to Paladins. You can ignore all that STR/DEX and just pump both attack stat + your Aura saves + your social skill bonuses. Win-Win-Win.

I think this is main reason for dipping into Hexblade for Paladin + Booming Blade/Green Flame. And Shield. And E-Blast. And 3 more spells....And short rest slot. And Curse... Jesus, all that for 1 level....

[Petrocorus]

One of the benefit is to take advantage of these short rest spell slots. Depending on the level range of your campaign and the number of short rest you take, it may be more efficient to take Warlock level than Paladin level.

Another benefit is to give more versatility to the Paladin.

Another one is some Warlock combo like Darkness + Devil's Sight that are amazing on a frontliner

Last but not least, using some Warlock feature to improve the Paladin strengths or compensate some of his weakness. Like using Dark One's Blessing to make your tank even more tanky, or Hex Warrior to help with the MADness.

[Alucard89]

One of the benefit is to take advantage of these short rest spell slots. Depending on the level range of your campaign and the number of short rest you take, it may be more efficient to take Warlock level than Paladin level.

Another benefit is to give more versatility to the Paladin.

Another one is some Warlock combo like Darkness + Devil's Sight that are amazing on a frontliner

Last but not least, using some Warlock feature to improve the Paladin strengths or compensate some of his weakness. Like using Dark One's Blessing to make your tank even more tanky, or Hex Warrior to help with the MADness.

I think 3 levels is a good investment. You lose only one 5th level slot from Paladin. It's a loss, but you get great range attack + Darkness and Devil' Sight which is quite nice if enemy has no caster and 2x 2nd level slots for 3k8 Smites. It's not 5k8 smite, but those are nice slots to burn between smites for crits.

Eh, I wish Paladin had more slots :P

[Benny89]

I think 3 levels is a good investment. You lose only one 5th level slot from Paladin. It's a loss, but you get great range attack + Darkness and Devil' Sight which is quite nice if enemy has no caster and 2x 2nd level slots for 3k8 Smites. It's not 5k8 smite, but those are nice slots to burn between smites for crits.

Eh, I wish Paladin had more slots :P

They are already arguably strongest single class in 5e, so I don't think they need more power :). And Sorcadin is also already arguably strongest multiclass build in game or one of strongest.

I think you should do like that: Invest 1 level in Hexblade for CHA SAD and all good stuff. Then go with Paladin further (to level 9 to get 3rd level spells) and this should give you idea how often your party have short rests, how many encounters per day you usually have etc.

Because for example if you have 2-3 encounters per session on average + 1, maybe 2 short rests- there is no point investing too much into Warlock. Paladin resources will be more than enough. He will shine in that scenario.

However if you have like 5-7 encounters per session on average and you take a lot of Short Rests- it might be good idea to invest that 7 levels into Hexblade for reliable 2x Smites per short rest to boost your resources. As you saw- the difference is not that big between 15/1 and 9/7 with slots, giving on level 16 an edge for Padlock.

The difference starts to move towards Paladin with 1 lvl dip on levels 17-20. Which are very far and high levels and you may not see them with your party.

So see how it goes first at your table and then decide. And don't worry: there is no bad choice here. Vengeance Pally with Hexblade dip is already on "OP" side, same as Padlock imo so you will have fun anyway :)

[Skylivedk]

If you are crit fishing... Elven Accuracy + Baleful Curse and you crit around 25% of the time when you have advantage. Your Eldritch Smite gives you advantage on your next hits. So does a darkness from a Wizard friend (or a familiar with Ring of Spell storing if you play with those rules) or from your half drow build if you are out of haste. I still have a hard time understanding why they created the hexblade the way they did. You can also Nova even more with a precast Armour of Agathys and some step dancing.

If you'd like to add some grated cheddar to your quattro formaggi consider doing the triple: hexblade 5, Paladin 6/7, Sorc 8/9. Now you don't even need PAM since spamming quickened booming blade will be much more fun with your bonus action. And yeah... This also makes step dancing even more fun.

[Pex]

I think 3 levels is a good investment. You lose only one 5th level slot from Paladin. It's a loss, but you get great range attack + Darkness and Devil' Sight which is quite nice if enemy has no caster and 2x 2nd level slots for 3k8 Smites. It's not 5k8 smite, but those are nice slots to burn between smites for crits.

Eh, I wish Paladin had more slots :P

If you will do three you might as well do four for the ASI. You lose the expanded Auras at 20th level, but if the normal 10 ft radius was good for the previous 19 it's good enough for the 20th.

[Benny89]

If you are crit fishing... Elven Accuracy + Baleful Curse and you crit around 25% of the time when you have advantage. Your Eldritch Smite gives you advantage on your next hits. So does a darkness from a Wizard friend (or a familiar with Ring of Spell storing if you play with those rules) or from your half drow build if you are out of haste. I still have a hard time understanding why they created the hexblade the way they did. You can also Nova even more with a precast Armour of Agathys and some step dancing.

If you'd like to add some grated cheddar to your quattro formaggi consider doing the triple: hexblade 5, Paladin 6/7, Sorc 8/9. Now you don't even need PAM since spamming quickened booming blade will be much more fun with your bonus action. And yeah... This also makes step dancing even more fun.

Elven Accuracy is nice in theory but If we do PAM build with War Caster (which we should and need, or RES (CON), but at least one to keep buffs and Haste safely) the Half-Elf comes into full potential full ASI late vs Vuman.

Vuman: 1- PAM, 4- +2 CHA, 8- War Caster/RES (CON), 12- + 2 CHA. Full build ready to go on lvl 12. 13 if we dip Warlock.

Half Elf: 4- Elven Accuracy, 8- PAM, 12- War Caster/ RES (CON), 16 - +2 CHA. Full ASI delay. With 1 level Warlock dip that last ASI comes at 17 level.

Of course from lvl 16 Half-Elf wins over Vuman since both are fully decked, but before that- Vuman already have 2 attacks on level 1-4. Vuman also already have 2 attacks and +4 Aura on levels 6-8. Vuman also have Booming Blade reaction attacks from PAM from level 8-12, while Half Elf does not. Vuman also after level 13 don't really have to care about ASI, giving more multiclass freedom, while Half Elf needs that 16/17 ASI.

All in all Half-Elf is great for crit fishing, but imo it's not good for PAM build on Paladins. Vuman scales better through entire 1-16 levels and also fully grows on level 12/13 vs 16/17 which is huge as it can take months to get there.

Half Elf is better on sword n board with: 1- Elvel Accuracy, 4- +2 CHA, 8- War Caster/RES (CON), 12- +2 CHA.

Half-Elf for non-PAM builds, Vumans for PAM-builds imo. And since OP wants PAM Vengeance Paladin- I recommend Vuman more.


If you will do three you might as well do four for the ASI. You lose the expanded Auras at 20th level, but if the normal 10 ft radius was good for the previous 19 it's good enough for the 20th.

He is correct. 3 levels gives him 17 levels of Paladin which still gives him one 5th level slot. If he goes 4 levels Warlock and 16 Paladin, he never gets extra 5th level slot and spells.

As Vuman he doesn't need extra ASI. He is fully maxed on level 13 with PAM, 20 CHA and War Caster. After that he can do whatever really.

[Pex]

He is correct. 3 levels gives him 17 levels of Paladin which still gives him one 5th level slot. If he goes 4 levels Warlock and 16 Paladin, he never gets extra 5th level slot and spells.

As Vuman he doesn't need extra ASI. He is fully maxed on level 13 with PAM, 20 CHA and War Caster. After that he can do whatever really.

A 5th level slot he gets for one level when the campaign is about over vs. an ASI/Feat he can benefit for as many levels as he wants when he takes the 4th level warlock.

[Benny89]

OP, if you are interested in maximizing your Smite NOVA damage you may consider a Hexsorcadin to abuse Font of Magic, thought this build is tricky to pull off:

Paladin 6/7 Hex Blade/7 Sorcerer.
Paladin 2/9 Hexblade/9 Sorcerer.

So in first one you use your Warlock slots before short rest (you take that whenever you can) to create more slots using Font of Magic.

To get 4k8 slots we need 3rd Level Warlock slots and 5th level of Sorcerer. So we need 5th level of Warlock too.

We will take a look at level 12 builds made this way:

1. Paladin 2/Warlock 5/Sorcerer 5

So best would be to take 2 levels of Paladin, then take 2 levels warlock, 2 sorcerer so you can start creating level 1 slots for smites. Then take 1 level of Warlock for 2nd level slots and next one level Sorcerer for 2nd level slots. Then 2 levels Sorcerer for 5 Sorcerer points so you can use Warlock and 1st level slots to create 3rd level slots. Then 2 levels in Warloc so you can use their 3rd level slots to create 3rd level slots.

So at level 12 you would be Paladin 2/Hexblade 5/Sorcerer 5 and you could potentially (assuming 2 short rests per day and that you didn't use your warlock slots before short rests) create additional 5 3rd level slots (4k8) smites per day, giving you total of: 2 warlock 3rd level slots, 5 additional slots + (Sorc 5 + 3 Paladin caster level) 3x 3rd level slots and 2x 4th level slots.

Giving you total per day potentially 2 + 5 + 3 = 10 4k8 smites and 2x 5k8 smites.

2. Paladin 6/Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 3

If you chose Paladin level 6, you would be at level 12 Paladin 6, Hexblade 3, Sorcerer 3, which would give you potentially 5 additional 2 level slots, 2 2nd level warlock slots, 3x 2nd level sorcerer slots and 3x 3rd level slots for total of 10 2nd level slots (3k8 Smites) and 3x 4k8 Smites. You could easly use every day 4 3k8 Smites and recharge them at short rests.

Even though you wen 6 Paladin- on level 12 you will have more slots than pure Paladin (4/3/3 vs 4/3/3 + 5 more from Font of Magic and 2 more from Warlock, giving you potential of 4/10/3 slots).

This build is tricky as it needs almost simultaneous leveing of Lock and Sorcere but in the end you become a Smiting Machine by abusing Font of Magic and warlock short rest slots.

[Skylivedk]

Elven Accuracy is nice in theory but If we do PAM build with War Caster (which we should and need, or RES (CON), but at least one to keep buffs and Haste safely) the Half-Elf comes into full potential full ASI late vs Vuman.

Vuman: 1- PAM, 4- +2 CHA, 8- War Caster/RES (CON), 12- + 2 CHA. Full build ready to go on lvl 12. 13 if we dip Warlock.

Half Elf: 4- Elven Accuracy, 8- PAM, 12- War Caster/ RES (CON), 16 - +2 CHA. Full ASI delay. With 1 level Warlock dip that last ASI comes at 17 level.

Of course from lvl 16 Half-Elf wins over Vuman since both are fully decked, but before that- Vuman already have 2 attacks on level 1-4. Vuman also already have 2 attacks and +4 Aura on levels 6-8. Vuman also have Booming Blade reaction attacks from PAM from level 8-12, while Half Elf does not. Vuman also after level 13 don't really have to care about ASI, giving more multiclass freedom, while Half Elf needs that 16/17 ASI.

All in all Half-Elf is great for crit fishing, but imo it's not good for PAM build on Paladins. Vuman scales better through entire 1-16 levels and also fully grows on level 12/13 vs 16/17 which is huge as it can take months to get there.

Half Elf is better on sword n board with: 1- Elvel Accuracy, 4- +2 CHA, 8- War Caster/RES (CON), 12- +2 CHA.

Half-Elf for non-PAM builds, Vumans for PAM-builds imo. And since OP wants PAM Vengeance Paladin- I recommend Vuman more.



He is correct. 3 levels gives him 17 levels of Paladin which still gives him one 5th level slot. If he goes 4 levels Warlock and 16 Paladin, he never gets extra 5th level slot and spells.

As Vuman he doesn't need extra ASI. He is fully maxed on level 13 with PAM, 20 CHA and War Caster. After that he can do whatever really.

My table doesn't use vHuman, so I tend to not think of them naturally. Also, I'd definitely go PAM/GWM (with the Sorcerer's quickened that bonus action attack of 1d4 looks really paltry quite quickly; and you only need it when you don't crit or kill) before Elven Acc and maybe even start Sorcerer for the Con save and sacrifice the 1 AC. Also I enjoy the extra spells given this way by half drow. In the end, it really depends on what you'd like.