Hi, im looking a way to improve my tanking.

[GenxZ]

Hi, im new to this forum, but im glad that forums are still alive! (not being in one of this for like 10 years)


well, to the point. Im actually in a party that needs me to be more tanky.

atm im a level 2 Dragonborn Cleric, but im kinda new to D&D and i dont know were are the must have for tanking.

if you need more info about my char, feel free to ask.

thank you so much in advance.

PS. i have Dragonscale Husk and a Heavy Wood Shield. but idk about more feats or skills to help in combat.

[Segev]

Okay, there are a couple of ways we can take "tanking." What I suspect you're asking for is how to survive while doing it better, but the other major direction to look is effectiveness in tanking. i.e., how well you keep the bruisers off your squishies. That latter is potentially, in some groups, handled by the DM just playing along and having the tank be the primary target. If not, then you'll want some battlefield control (either your own or your party mage's) that helps shape things so you're able to block a choke point, or make yourself hard to ignore.

But I'm sure we'll get more on that later, and my posting time is limited, so I'll focus on what I think you're asking for first: survivability.

First off, you're a cleric. You want the spell magic vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm). It's +1 to your AC for now, which isn't bad at low level, and it scales with level to a certain point. It also lasts an hour per level, so you can cast it before entering a dungeon and it will probably still be up for the majority of the crawl. It will make you harder to hit. As you level up, you'll want a Cloak of Resistance, as saves will be important. As a cleric, you've got good Fort and Will, but anything to bolster your Ref will be a godsend (pun intended).

You also probably want to consider divine favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm), as well; luck bonuses to hit and damage are pretty awesome, due to their rarity; rarity means they stack with the more common sources of such bonuses (most will be enhancement).

Shield of faith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOfFaith.htm) is immensely valuable because it can be put on a squishy ally if the enemies aren't playing along and attacking you; it's also good on yourself to improve your survivability by, again, making you harder to hit. I actually recommend against entropic shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm) for a tank, because it only encourages ranged enemies to ignore you and go for your squishier allies.

Depending on what books are allowed, the spell lesser vigor (in the Spell Compendium, and likely at least one other source) is a full minute of fast healing 1, which is a guaranteed 10 hp. Not immensely useful in combat, but adds a little staying power and also is highly efficient for its cost in spell level/slot. I recommend buying a wand of it (750 gp) if your DM will let you find a place selling them. Definitely get a wand of cure light wounds if he won't; you may well be able to spontaneously sacrifice your spells for it, but having a wand of it is something the party can pool their funds to buy and is 50 charges that aren't eating your spells per day (or for when your spells are exhausted).

Remember, too, that healing is ideally for after combat. Don't skimp in it if it will save a life, obviously, but fight like you can't rely on it and strive to keep your actions focused on disabling or destroying the enemy if at all possible. (Buffing allies and yourself, and debuffing enemies, are both means towards this. Healing your allies or yourself is a holding action.)

Finally, while it's not great at level 1 or 2 (due to 1 round casting time and 1 round/level duration), summon monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) spells create extra balls of hp that you can drop right in the ranks of the enemy. They'll help you tank and can help your rogue flank and are generally useful to add more targets and sources of damage that are hard to ignore. Drop them in the ranged line of your foes and their archers and spellcasters have something to worry about in their face rather than trying to cast or shoot past you.

[Vizzerdrix]

What books are available to you?

[GenxZ]

thank you for your responses, i appreciate them both.

@Segev, but that spell doesnt conflict with the dragon scales? (Magic Vestment) i already use Divine Favor.

@Vizzerdrix all of the 3+ editions.

[Mordaedil]

I think Dragonborn gives you Natural Armor AC bonus, which is not the same as Armor AC bonus. You can wear armor to boost your AC and cast Magic Vestment to enhance the AC that armor gives you.

Shield of Faith gives you Deflection AC, something to be aware of if you were to cast scintillating scales or the like, which turns your Natural Armor AC into Deflection AC.

Armor bonuses of same type don't stack is the rule, so make sure you know which types you are getting!

[Deophaun]

As you level up, you'll want a Cloak of Resistance, as saves will be important.
He's a cleric. He has the resistance line of spells, which last 24 hours and cap at +6 instead of +5. A cloak of resistance is a waste of gold.

However, he will want conviction, a rod of extend, and a rod of chaining.

[Vizzerdrix]

thank you for your responses, i appreciate them both.

@Segev, but that spell doesnt conflict with the dragon scales? (Magic Vestment) i already use Divine Favor.

@Vizzerdrix all of the 3+ editions.

Okay. I know of a 3 feat chain that will gain you DR5/byeshk. It can also net you shield as a spell like ability on the way. A but too costly for a cleric, but I figured I`d mention it.

You could grab wild cohort and spread the damage around a bit.

Also you can look into binder feats and bo9s feats. I'm positive someone will be along soon who is more familiar with those books to help you pick the good stuff out.

[Red Fel]

Hi, im new to this forum, but im glad that forums are still alive! (not being in one of this for like 10 years)


well, to the point. Im actually in a party that needs me to be more tanky.

atm im a level 2 Dragonborn Cleric, but im kinda new to D&D and i dont know were are the must have for tanking.

if you need more info about my char, feel free to ask.

thank you so much in advance.

PS. i have Dragonscale Husk and a Heavy Wood Shield. but idk about more feats or skills to help in combat.

Two points.

First: Dragonborn what? In 3.5, Dragonborn is applied on top of another race, which may influence what constitutes a good choice for you.

Second: Are you married to the Cleric class? Because, as Vizzerdrix points out, there are some great options out there, especially in Tome of Battle. Segev points out that simply being able to take a hit is not the same thing as keeping the enemy away from the squishies, and there are relatively few mechanics in D&D that let you do that. The closest you get to those can be found in ToB, specifically in the Crusader class.

[Segev]

Two points.

First: Dragonborn what? In 3.5, Dragonborn is applied on top of another race, which may influence what constitutes a good choice for you.I always forget that; I never use the template/race, myself, which is probably why.


Second: Are you married to the Cleric class? Because, as Vizzerdrix points out, there are some great options out there, especially in Tome of Battle. Segev points out that simply being able to take a hit is not the same thing as keeping the enemy away from the squishies, and there are relatively few mechanics in D&D that let you do that. The closest you get to those can be found in ToB, specifically in the Crusader class.

There is the possibility his GM "plays along" and has people target the designated tanks, possibly with appropriate taunting used for in-character motivation. There is also tactical positioning.

But yes, building to be able to ensure you control access to your allies is important in a tactical/strategic build for a game where the DM isn't going to have the enemies cooperate in their targeting voluntarily.

What's the rest of your party make-up? Do you need to be able to do battlefield control and access funnelling yourself, or do you have allies who can handle that while you serve as the point to which they focus things?

[Karl Aegis]

You really don't have many options at level 2.

[GenxZ]

I am Ex Aasimar Drsgonborn, currently my party is a Human Ninja, Aasimar Warlock, idr Warblade, a dwarf druid and a Half Elf Bard

[MishimaRyu]

If you have a high Charisma, you can take two levels of Paladin (if you are Chaotic, you can look for Paladin of Freedom), which boost your saves. As Well BAB. But It kills your caster level (which isn't good, if you are relying in your spells to buff you).

For an offensive tanker, breaking enemies weapons could helps too... specially in low levels. But it depends how your team works.

And, if you need to induce enemies to attack you, I can remember the Goad feat.

[Red Fel]

I am Ex Aasimar Drsgonborn, currently my party is a Human Ninja, Aasimar Warlock, idr Warblade, a dwarf druid and a Half Elf Bard

So at least two of your allies are going to be in melee with you. That makes things harder, unless - as has been suggested - the DM basically "plays along." If the DM does that, fine, you can be the focal point of enemy assault, but otherwise you really need more than just the ability to take a hit - you need a way to focus enemy fire on your character specifically.

There's a Warblade in the mix. That means ToB is - or should be - on the table. If your goal is specifically "tanking," and not just taking or dealing damage, I'd strongly advise you to switch out from Cleric to Crusader. You want to take Thicket of Blades stance, which is your "stay away from my squishies" stance - it gives you an AoO against anyone moving through your space. You also want the Defensive Rebuke maneuver, which is your "don't look at him, look at me" attack - it gives you an AoO against anyone attacking your ally instead of you. Likewise, you want the Iron Guard's Glare stance, to be used if your enemies get past you and reach the squishies - it penalizes enemies for attacking anyone but you.

These abilities, among other Crusader tricks, are basically the closest thing the game has to "tanking." There are a lot of ways to further optimize them. But if that's the goal, Cleric isn't going to be your most effective way to do it.

[bean illus]

I'm surprised no one mentioned it yet, probably because it's so obvious and not necessarily tanking, but reach weapon and combat reflexes are two simple ways exert some Battlefield control.

Clerics can be melee monsters, and quite tanky. Traditionally you are required to take on healing duties, but the Druid and Bard can share those.
That would leave you a little more free to use your resources on melee options (feats, skills, spells, items, etc).

If you do consider multiclassing you might want to stay in cleric until 7th level for divine power.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Building on the prior post, tripping is a fantastic way to lock down enemies, especially if you have Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon.

[tiercel]

He's a cleric. He has the resistance line of spells, which last 24 hours and cap at +6 instead of +5. A cloak of resistance is a waste of gold.

However, he will want conviction, a rod of extend, and a rod of chaining.

Er... resistance (the base, 0-level spell) only lasts one minute, and the next step up, greater resistance, isn’t available until he can cast 4th level spells.

Even then, a Cloak (or Vest) of Resistance +3 is 9000gp, which is probably a good deal for a 4th level spell slot (cf. Pearl of Power IV, 16000gp), given that 4th level Cleric spells contain such standbys as death ward, freedom of movement, restoration, and divine power (and I wouldn’t immediately assume that DMM: Persist necessarily falls under the same optimization level as a party that contains a Ninja, much less that the Cleric is using Dragonscale Husk instead of armor).

Also, of course, a cloak or vest isn’t vulnerable to dispelling the way a cleric buffstack is to a dispel targetted on the cleric (which is/should be a common debuff tactic especially by time the 6th-level-resistance-spell comes online).

———

“Tanking” is a bit problematic generally in D&D since there aren’t that many *mechanical* ways to “draw and hold aggro” (ToB classes, the Knight base class, a feat like Goad, etc.), all of which have their limitations.

To a certain degree, tanking is as much tactical and psychological as mechanical; if the battlefield is restricted (e.g. dungeon) and you can maneuver into a position that makes it difficult for foes to get past you, that’s one step. If you can be “first to the fight,” then unintelligent foes will tend to swarm the first immediate threat (as will many average-or-higher intelligence foes who don’t perceive an obviously greater threat than whoever first gets in their faces). This also means projecting perceived threat is important - you want to make opponents want to attack you, or at least not want to attack someone else more than you.

So you want to keep an eye open for speed/mobility (initiative, movement rate, alternative movements modes, particularly flight) and apparent threat (which can be actual attack power, of course, but also flashy/imposing attacks and presence, e.g. breath weapon, enlarge person, and the like), generally speaking.

[Rebel7284]

I will assume that tanking in this context just means melee with high survivability.

While at level 2, Crusader is indeed a better tanking option due to self-healing strikes and the delayed damage pool, Cleric can be MUCH more powerful starting in a few levels. One of the keys to this is Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell allowing you to spend turn undead attempts to make some of your buff spells last 24 hours. This allows you to have spells like
- Mass Lesser Vigor: Fast Healing 1 all day long makes sure that your party always starts every encounter at full health and the in-combat healing, while minor, is occasionally useful too.
- Channeled Divine Shield: DR/10 overcome only by evil-aligned weapons is VERY powerful
- Cloud of Knives: A free ranged attack every turn is a free attack...
- Ice Axe: All your attacks are touch attacks and deal massive cold damage.

At later levels things like Divine Power and Righteous Might make you an unstoppable melee monster.

There are a number of ways to get extra turning attempts and extra turning pools if you go in this direction.

Close Wounds is a great spell for a melee cleric. Since you cast it as a swift action, you can heal yourself or an ally and still attack on the same turn.

Another avenue that is open to you, if as a Dragonborn you took the breath aspect, you can take Entangling Exhilation to have an ability to do battlefield control. Metabreath feats, especially quicken breath are good with this so that you can breath as a swift action and then go in swinging. Sure you won't be able to breath again for a while, but you shouldn't need to.

[Deophaun]

Er... resistance (the base, 0-level spell) only lasts one minute,
Do you know what a "line of spells" is?

and the next step up, greater resistance, isn’t available until he can cast 4th level spells.
And in the meantime, you've wasted 9000 gp that could be spent elsewhere, like level 1 pearls of power and rods of extend: you're much better off working on getting more conviction spells up to cover the entire party than spending money on something you're going to eventually throw away (which is even worse if you are adding resistance to another item, as then that money is just gone forever).

Even then, a Cloak (or Vest) of Resistance +3 is 9000gp, which is probably a good deal for a 4th level spell slot (cf. Pearl of Power IV, 16000gp)
But the pearl retains its value. The cloak doesn't.

and I wouldn’t immediately assume that DMM: Persist necessarily falls under the same optimization level as a party that contains a Ninja, much less that the Cleric is using Dragonscale Husk instead of armor
Uh, you did immediately assume DMM: Persist, because you are the one who brought it up when the person you're responding to talked about rods of extend and never mentioned persisting spells at all.

Also, of course, a cloak or vest isn’t vulnerable to dispelling the way a cleric buffstack is to a dispel targetted on the cleric (which is/should be a common debuff tactic especially by time the 6th-level-resistance-spell comes online).
This dispelling argument has been dispelled many times. It is easy for anyone to get a CL of "No" when it comes to even chain dispel.

[Segev]

Do you know what a "line of spells" is?

And in the meantime, you've wasted 9000 gp that could be spent elsewhere,

He directly addressed both of these criticisms in other parts of the post from which you drew those quotes. >_>

The "line" consists of one more spell that is significantly higher level, and the 9000 gp he compared to buying an extra 4th level slot via a Pearl of Power and found it to be economical.

Your reply feels intellectually dishonest, which is disappointing, as I have generally seen better than that from you, Deophaun.

[Deophaun]

He directly addressed both of these criticisms in other parts of the post from which you drew those quotes. >_>

The "line" consists of one more spell that is significantly higher level, and the 9000 gp he compared to buying an extra 4th level slot via a Pearl of Power and found it to be economical.

Your reply feels intellectually dishonest, which is disappointing, as I have generally seen better than that from you, Deophaun.
And I addressed both of those points.

- You don't single out a single cantrip when someone discusses an entire line.
- He completely ignored the mention of conviction (comes on a level 1, has a mass option at spell level 3, stays relevant through the entire game) which...
- ...made his economic argument laughable.

You want to dock someone for intellectual dishonesty, go after the person who flat out ignored half the advice because it was inconvenient.

[Segev]

And I addressed both of those points.

- You don't single out a single cantrip when someone discusses an entire line.
- He completely ignored the mention of conviction (comes on a level 1, has a mass option at spell level 3, stays relevant through the entire game) which...
- ...made his economic argument laughable.

You want to dock someone for intellectual dishonesty, go after the person who flat out ignored half the advice because it was inconvenient.

I...frankly don't see the mention of conviction, either, nor am I familiar with the spell. What's it do? (I assume bonuses to saves...?)

He didn't "completely ignore the line," he called out the next spell up in the line, and favorably compared the cost of a +3 Cloak of Resistance to the cost of expending a spell slot on resistance for a +3 resistance bonus to saves.

So, no, I don't see him ignoring anything that I have seen brought up in here, and I do see you accusing him of leaving out details he mentioned. You didn't address his economic argument so much as just assert that it was wrong without backing it up. You said the 9000 gp could be spent on other stuff, but never actually gave a means of getting the same bonus to saves other than casting the spell.

Deo, come on, man. Flesh out your points more. I'm trying to see where you're coming from, here, but you're throwing out terms and half-developed arguments as if they make a point, against actually well-made points. If you're right, you can do better than this. Don't leave things for inference, and directly address the entirety of what's been argued, rather than giving a "nuh-uh"-like reply that seems to pretend things weren't addressed by asserting their opposite with less support than was given for what you ignored! :smallmad:

[Deophaun]

I...frankly don't see the mention of conviction,

However, he will want conviction, a rod of extend, and a rod of chaining.

either, nor am I familiar with the spell. What's it do? (I assume bonuses to saves...?)
Scaling morale bonuses to saves for 10 min/level.

He didn't "completely ignore the line,"
OK. Being accused of intellectual dishonesty by someone who makes up a quote is...

...well, I'm just done here.

[Segev]

Scaling morale bonuses to saves for 10 min/level.Thanks. That's a reasonable spell; what level is it? (It doesn't look like it's in the core.)


OK. Being accused of intellectual dishonesty by someone who makes up a quote is...

...well, I'm just done here.Sorry, I probably shouldn't have used quotes. What you actually did was imply that he "single[d] out a cantrip when somebody discusses an entire line," which remains an inaccurate claim, since he went straight for greater resistance for the comparison to a +3 Cloak, siting that it was the next spell up in said line. You're thus implying that he ignored the line, though you didn't outright say so.

You're arguing semantics when I'm trying to actually engage in discussion, here, and you're still not showing that you've addressed his actual position rather than ignoring it in favor of giving a less-substantiated counterclaim. I'm sorry I've offended you - I genuinely am; this isn't a snarky harumph-harumph dismissal of you being offended - but getting huffy over my use of quotes for what is more properly a paraphrase and not actually demonstrating that my assertion that your argument seemed intellectually dishonest is incorrect is...well, it's not convincing me you're serious, here.

It's a lot of deflection and "no, you are!" and not a lot of substance.

Conviction may well do better, but him not bringing it up when it's not a core spell and isn't called [anything] resisatance isn't him focusing in on a single cantrip when somebody else brought up a line, and the fact remains that he went straight to the second spell in the line being 4th level to site a problem.

10 min/level is decent duration, but isn't going to cut it as a replacement for an item or spell that lasts all day, either, as that's SEVERAL castings you're going to need. Now, if it's a first level spell, 3-4 1000 gp pearls of power I could probably serve well enough, and is less than half the cost of a 9000 gp +3 resistance item. But then...conviction stacks with the Cloak. So it may behoove him to get both.

[Deophaun]

Thanks. That's a reasonable spell; what level is it? (It doesn't look like it's in the core.)
I already said. And it's in the Spell Compendium, so it's not like it's in an obscure source.

Sorry, I probably shouldn't have used quotes. What you actually did was imply that he "single[d] out a cantrip when somebody discusses an entire line," which remains an inaccurate claim, since he went straight for greater resistance for the comparison to a +3 Cloak, siting that it was the next spell up in said line. You're thus implying that he ignored the line, though you didn't outright say so.
No. I said--not implied--that he singled out a cantrip, which he did. I did not imply that ignored the whole line. Do not confuse with what you inferred with what I implied.

You're arguing semantics when I'm trying to actually engage in discussion, here, and you're still not showing that you've addressed his actual position rather than ignoring it in favor of giving a less-substantiated counterclaim.
His position ignored conviction. You do not get to take issue with an approach by ignoring the half of it that directly addresses the deficiency, which is low-level saves.

but getting huffy over my use of quotes for what is more properly a paraphrase
Don't call a misrepresentation a paraphrase. I flat out didn't say what your invented quote said.

Conviction may well do better, but him not bringing it up
I brought it up in the very post he took issue with.

when it's not a core spell
The OP said all offical material is on the table:

@Vizzerdrix all of the 3+ editions.[/I]

and isn't called [anything] resisatance
You are pretending this is all in a vacuum. It's not. Conviction is mentioned alongside the resistance line. You don't get to ignore it.

But then...conviction stacks with the Cloak. So it may behoove him to get both.
No, it doesn't, because spending all your money on boosting saves is a terrible idea. You spend your saving throw budget on getting what you can out of conviction, which is not just pearls of power but also rods of extend, because these things will still be useful later as you can apply them to other things. You don't worry about a measly +1 bonus, because a wand of resurgence (not mentioned) will matter in maybe 50% of saves versus the +1 mattering in only 5%, and it will--again--still be useful as people do roll 1s. By the time you can start worrying about a higher-bonus cloak a 4th-level slot for greater resistance isn't a big deal, while you should be looking at saving up for either a lesser metamagic rod of chaining (which your party can probably chip in for, seeing as you're going to be saving them tens of thousands on enhancement bonuses for their weapons), a bead of karma, buying a ring of enduring arcana, or a dozen or so other useful things to cover holes in your capabilities.

[tiercel]

Wow, I was so not looking to turn a “tanking” thread into a “you are boosting saving throws wrong” thread.

I like always-on save boosters for the simple reason that very often the most important saving throws characters make are the ones they don’t expect to have to make. Yes, conviction and especially mass conviction are good, but they won’t run all day without sufficient investment to warrant asking “doesn’t equipment do that sort of thing?” — much less that resistance and morale bonuses stack.

Also, the OP’s game doesn’t sound like a Caster Level: Infinity type game (and even those types of games tend to feature Dispel Check: Infinity tech) — and BBEG caster levels have a nasty habit of higher than party caster levels, so yeah, I’d say not only in my experience but likely in the OP’s game, being completely dispel-proof is an unrealistic expectation.

And to work back around to the presumably main point of this thread, while nice buffs can contribute to tanking ability (for a given character and for the whole party), it’s not a bad idea to not concentrate too hard on buffstacking generally. Buffs eat up actions in general (or involve heavy invest in DMM, which not all tables have the lactose tolerance for) — and being lit up like Times Square with buff spells is practically begging for intelligent foes to lob dispels or even just withdraw until you’re not so obviously buffed to Celestia and back, and unintelligent foes to wind up genetically engineered to have raw numbers sufficient to pose an actual threat through the Stack o’ Buffs that if you ever encounter them whilst not fully suited up, you are doomed.

More active spells can seize tempo by forcing an opponent to react/choose between less than optimal responses, which (like the other part of my previous post) can be a key to “tanking” — not worrying so much about mechanically “pulling aggro” or being somehow untouchable, but being in a position to shape if not dictate enemy actions.

[Bronk]

“Tanking” is a bit problematic generally in D&D since there aren’t that many *mechanical* ways to “draw and hold aggro” (ToB classes, the Knight base class, a feat like Goad, etc.), all of which have their limitations.

The best way to actually draw and hold the attention of opponents is to have the 'Delicious' flaw. It's a flaw that appears on the commoner flaw list in Dragon 330, and only works for 'monsters'. It's possible to get the flaw without taking it at first level as a first level commoner by being bitten by a weresheep, the existence of which is also noted in the same article, and as a weresheep you could also turn your deliciousness on and off by changing form.