Optimizing archer without sharpshooter

[Shuruke]

So currently I have a character that swaps between spear and longbow

Kensei monk
Sword bard

I plan on going into fighter for archery style and I had a funny thought for my next character.

How can you make an optimized archer that doesn't use sharpshooter

Multi classing is allowed
Other feats are allowed
But remember that crossbow expert doesn't allow dual wield hand xbow because u can't reload due to ammunition trait needing an open hand.

How would u build a sharp shooter free fighter

I was thinking lore bard 9 fighter 11
That way once you get 5th level slots swap magical secret to swift quiver.
When bot using 5th slots you have haste.

Do either E.K or Battle master

Get 3 attacks a turn.
4 with haste
5 with swift quiver

E.K would let u do a magic intiate eldritch blast and bonus action bow attack or grab fire bolt from e.k and save feat.

If you go battle master you could grab martial adept for more uses of throwing damage dice on your arrows.

Can't remember if 11 E.K gets 3rd level spells yet but if they do flame arrow is an option.

I'm interested in seeing how you guys would do it
Maybe rogue fighter or ranger rogue would be good because high accuracy and sneak attack

[djreynolds]

3 levels of hunter ranger for horde breaker and hunters mark

Obviously hexblade, rogue, and whispers bard are great options.

[Shuruke]

Tru a rogue bard would be great

I like idea of war cleric to!

[Brotherbock]

But remember that crossbow expert doesn't allow dual wield hand xbow because u can't reload due to ammunition trait needing an open hand.



What if you convinced your GM to let you have a couple of repeating crossbows? The Chinese 'Zhuge crossbow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow)', 4th century BCE. :)

[djreynolds]

What about gunslinger from UA

[Shuruke]

Oooh this both could be good

I don't look at u.a but loved pathfinder gunslinger
I am sure that for extra gold a gm might allow hand crossbow with repeating .

Reminds me of that Van helsing movie with his stake crossbow XD .


Tbh I already played a character who used light cross bow that was theatrically a six shooter and he did the one hand on the hammer firing while aiming trope
Was lots of fun

I currently have a sling using arcane archer that maxed int and dm allowed a int magic stone with magic intiate

[Brotherbock]

I am sure that for extra gold a gm might allow hand crossbow with repeating .


I dunno, it's not automatic. I had a GM refuse to allow me to pay a blacksmith to make me metal zip-strip garrotes (ratcheting metal garrotes) just because it was 'too much real world knowledge' :/

[Citan]

So currently I have a character that swaps between spear and longbow

Kensei monk
Sword bard

I plan on going into fighter for archery style and I had a funny thought for my next character.

How can you make an optimized archer that doesn't use sharpshooter

Multi classing is allowed
Other feats are allowed
But remember that crossbow expert doesn't allow dual wield hand xbow because u can't reload due to ammunition trait needing an open hand.

How would u build a sharp shooter free fighter

I was thinking lore bard 9 fighter 11
That way once you get 5th level slots swap magical secret to swift quiver.
When bot using 5th slots you have haste.

Do either E.K or Battle master

Get 3 attacks a turn.
4 with haste
5 with swift quiver

E.K would let u do a magic intiate eldritch blast and bonus action bow attack or grab fire bolt from e.k and save feat.

If you go battle master you could grab martial adept for more uses of throwing damage dice on your arrows.

Can't remember if 11 E.K gets 3rd level spells yet but if they do flame arrow is an option.

I'm interested in seeing how you guys would do it
Maybe rogue fighter or ranger rogue would be good because high accuracy and sneak attack
Search forum for my posts with "nova damage" and you should find a detailed build quickly.
Overall...

- Long Range archer: Whispers Bard 10, Hexblade Blade Warlock 5, Devotion Paladin 3, Fighter 2.
Pick Devil Sight Invocation, Improved Pact Weapon invocation, use Action Surge to activate Sacred Weapon or Darkness, max CHA, pick Elven Accuracy feat (optional considering how high base to-hit is) along with Inspiring Leader.
You'll end with a +17 to hit (6+5+5+1), possibility to switch to advantage with Darkness/Greater Invisibility, have an impressive nova damage (5d6+4d8 on a single weapon attack), have Catnap to quickly restore short-rest BI+InspiringLeader+slots, and have Bless to further boost your offense or Shield of Faith to boost your defense.
Option: switch Paladin for Assassin if you want to get impressive surprise round instead.

- Short-range archer: Horizon Walker Ranger 3 + Grave Cleric 2 + Arcane Trickster Rogue 9 + Fighter 2 (optional depending on whether you can get Hasted some way or another or not) + Diviner Wizard 3 (optional, depending on whether you feel lucky on matching adequate Portent rolls and being on the day you need it XD). Pick Crossbow Expert, Lucky and possibly Elven Accuracy IF you have ways to get advantage reliably.

This is much more an all or nothing shot and kinda clunky (not the one ultimate build I had in mind the first time, but cannot remember it). Either you simply shoot from Hidden to get advantage, or you try and impose an advantage from Magical Ambush spell to last further, with Hold Person being especially good paired with Crossbow Expert.
Without going that far, your nova option will be closing in, using Action Surge to Channel Divinity (next hit is vulnerability to all damage), bonus action "all damage is force", then make sure your next attack hit: force damage ensures you deal maximum damage on 99% of all existing creatures, CD makes it twice thanks to vulnerability, and if you managed to make a Hold Person (or otherwise paralyzing) from you or another at the right moment, you double yet again since auto-critical (it does't care whether you make ranged or melee attack as long as you stand within 5 feet, hence Crossbow Expert).

Bonus point: both rely on weapons (duh) so you could also work with allies.
I prefer the first build though, less clunky.

As far as ultimate accuracy goes, it's Kensei Monk 11 + Devotion Paladin 4 + Hexblade Warlock 3 + Fighter 2 (or switch 4th level of Pal and Fighter to instead get Divine Soul Sorcerer with Quicken).
6 (proficiency) + 5 (CHA as attack) + 5 (Sacred Weapon) + 2 (Archery) + 1 (Improved Pact Weapon) + 1 (Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, or minimum Bless) amounts to a total of 20.
Sure, it requires preparation (cast Magic Weapon first, , so it's not the kind of accuracy you can pull in the middle of any fight.
It comes in damn handy in boss fights though, and those are the kind you usually plan strategies and timing for so... :=)

And even when just using half a turn preparing, you can either use Sacred Weapon for a nifty +5 or Kensei's +3 to be more conservative.

Also, plz note these are two examples of combinations but more exists, and those are made solely to purpose maximum semi-sustainable damage. "Best archer" or "optimized" archer can mean many other things. :)

[Finney]

I'm interested in seeing how you guys would do it
Maybe rogue fighter or ranger rogue would be good because high accuracy and sneak attack

A fighter/rogue, with most of the levels in rogue, would be my pick. Without sharpshooter, I think sneak attack dice are more valuable than a third and fourth shot per round. The fighter levels are to get archery fighting style, precision strike, and a second shot per round.

I can't imagine any archer build without the sharpshooter feat being better than a sorcerer/warlock that quickens eldritch blast, though. Just pretend your EB beams are arrows. :smallcool:

[Keravath]

A couple of points
11 fighter/9 bard doesn’t work since you can only swap magical secrets spells for bard spells .. not any spell. So the soonest you could get Swift quiver is with the 10th level bard magical secrets picks.

I am not sure what the need or concern regarding two hand crossbows is .. you can have one hand crossbow .. use it for your regular attacks and the bonus action attack from crossbow expert .. as long as you have a hand free to load it you’re fine.

[Rukelnikov]

There was a similar thread a couple days ago, and in general, Bards can do anything, so...

Half-Elf

Whisper Bard 15/Hexlock 1

Cha to att, trivantage on every attack, 19-20 crit, exploit whisper smite on crits, decent caster when not transformed.

8
16 (15+1)
14 (13+1)
8
12
20 (15+2+1+2)

ASIs: XBE(4), EA +1 Cha(8), +2 Cha(12)

Concentration: Tenser's Transformation

Attack: 2* 1d6+2d12+5
Bonus: 1d6+2d12+5

3d6 + 6d12 +5 + 8d6 = 11d6+6d12+15 = 38.5 + 39 + 15 = 92.5

if we crit at least once in a round:

4d6 + 8d12 + 15 + 16d6 = 20d6 + 8d12 + 15 = 70 + 42 + 15 = 127

With trivantage on every attack and champs 19-20 crit range we have a 61% chance to crit on any given round

[MagneticKitty]

High elf (or flying elf if allowed) arcane archer + elven accuracy
Frequent use of bonus action to curve missed shots to hit other targets
long bow

Or wood elf battle master archer + elven accuracy + crossbow expert

Done.

[Shuruke]

I dunno, it's not automatic. I had a GM refuse to allow me to pay a blacksmith to make me metal zip-strip garrotes (ratcheting metal garrotes) just because it was 'too much real world knowledge' :/

just make a deal with Ettercaps for them to give u web garrotes
They have that as a variant weapon why can't a player

[Metamorph]

With trivantage on every attack and champs 19-20 crit range we have a 61% chance to crit on any given round

What do you mean by 'trivantage'? You can not have more then one adventage at a time. You could use lucky as an additional dice but that should be everything.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Rogue is so great for this in 5e because sneak attack procs off of advantage or having an ally next to the target. It’s very easy to get almost every turn. So I’d recommend Rogue with maybe a Ranger dip to 3 and a Fighter dip to 2-3. Just sort of depends on what you want more at later levels, but going straight Rogue for several levels isn’t a bad idea.

[Skylivedk]

What do you mean by 'trivantage'? You can not have more then one adventage at a time. You could use lucky as an additional dice but that should be everything.

Three dice rolled from Elven Accuracy

[MThurston]

Ranger 3, Hexblade 3 and Rogue 3.

Ranger to get hunters Mark and go Hunter.

Hexblade to be able to make a +1 Bow your pact weapon thatvacts as a focus. You will be able to see in the darkness and cast darkness.

Rogue to be able to hide as a bonus action. This will allow you to hide in your darkness and get advantage shots on targets.

You would be doing 1d8 + stat + hex + hunters Mark and Coll damage.

Go Human variant to get crossbow expert. With only taking 3 in each class you will not get a feat, but taking 1 in each class after 9 will give you 1 feat per the next 3 levels.

[Brotherbock]

just make a deal with Ettercaps for them to give u web garrotes
They have that as a variant weapon why can't a player

Good call for 5e. This was years and years ago, however. And in Rolemaster :)

[Willie the Duck]

What if you convinced your GM to let you have a couple of repeating crossbows? The Chinese 'Zhuge crossbow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow)', 4th century BCE. :)

If you've seen a reproduction being used, they definitely require two hands to be used.


I am not sure what the need or concern regarding two hand crossbows is .. you can have one hand crossbow .. use it for your regular attacks and the bonus action attack from crossbow expert .. as long as you have a hand free to load it you’re fine.

And frankly, a character using a single hand crossbow for normal attacks plus bonus action attacks is a pretty good reproduction of Chinese repeating crossbow.

I agree with (what I assume is) the intent of the OP--without Sharpshooter, doing (using the example of 5th level class with multiattack and 16 dex with feat or 18 Dex ) 3d6+9 isn't better than 2d8+8, and still having your bonus action. Better to focus on longbow and get bonus-action attacks some other way (such as swift quiver). Although honestly, a fighter 12 with just archery style and xbow expert (and presumably max dex) doing 4d6+20 every round and not having to worry about spell expenditures (and presumably 1-3 extra ASIs left over to do other things) is probably pretty good. The real downside is the horrible range of (non-disadvantaged) hand crossbows without sharpshooter.

[Metamorph]

Three dice rolled from Elven Accuracy

It says "reroll". If you want three dices I would suggest Lucky.

[Keravath]

Ranger 3, Hexblade 3 and Rogue 3.

Ranger to get hunters Mark and go Hunter.

Hexblade to be able to make a +1 Bow your pact weapon thatvacts as a focus. You will be able to see in the darkness and cast darkness.

Rogue to be able to hide as a bonus action. This will allow you to hide in your darkness and get advantage shots on targets.

You would be doing 1d8 + stat + hex + hunters Mark and Coll damage.

Go Human variant to get crossbow expert. With only taking 3 in each class you will not get a feat, but taking 1 in each class after 9 will give you 1 feat per the next 3 levels.

You can't stack hex and hunter's mark because both are concentration spells. Choose one. Colossus slayer is on 1 attack/turn.

This build also has no feats since no class has reached level 4.

You'd be better off with fighter 1/hexblade 5/rogue 3 for the same number of levels. You give up colossus slayer but have extra attack (thirsting blade) from hexblade and a stat boost plus if you start fighter you have martial armor and weapon proficiencies and con saves.

[Willie the Duck]

It says "reroll". If you want three dices I would suggest Lucky.

Can you explain how you see the distinction as particularly meaningful?

[Keravath]

It says "reroll". If you want three dices I would suggest Lucky.

If you are only taking the highest die then "Reroll" is mathematically equivalent to rolling three dice and since we all know how much most D&D players love dice, most players just grab a third die and roll it along with the other two when they have elven accuracy.

Also, since Lucky is applied afterward ... you don't actually get to roll three dice since you wait to decide whether to use Lucky until after you see the dice rolls.

[Sudsboy]

You might look at war cleric 9/ftr 11. Cast holy weapon on your bow. Bonus attacks from war domain.

[Brotherbock]

If you've seen a reproduction being used, they definitely require two hands to be used.



But nothing that couldn't be replaced with a foot lever mechanic instead. Shoot, place tip on the ground, hit the lever with your foot/leg, raise up and fire again. IIRC, the mechanism is a fairly straightforward up/down lever.

[Skylivedk]

It says "reroll". If you want three dices I would suggest Lucky.


Can you explain how you see the distinction as particularly meaningful?


If you are only taking the highest die then "Reroll" is mathematically equivalent to rolling three dice and since we all know how much most D&D players love dice, most players just grab a third die and roll it along with the other two when they have elven accuracy.

Also, since Lucky is applied afterward ... you don't actually get to roll three dice since you wait to decide whether to use Lucky until after you see the dice rolls.

Thanks Willie and Keravath. I was about to give an answer that was a lot more snarky. That probably wouldn't have helped.

On topic:
If you go away from -5/+10 you want either sneak attack or (pseudo) smite to boost damage. Both like crit... A lot. Sneak attack also likes action surge and haste (for ready action -> sneak attack on opponents' turn = double the sneak attack each round).

First consideration: How you build around having all that is very much a question of preference of (almost) at-will (sneak attack) or short rest (action surge/manoeuvres, whisper bard and hexblade) or long rest damage (haste, swift quiver). Campaign dependent.

Second consideration: how smooth do you want your power curve to be and which level do you start. Campaign dependent.

Third consideration: what other functions do you want to fulfill? Party dependent.

Fourth consideration: what kind of support can you expect from your party members? Party dependent.

[Willie the Duck]

But nothing that couldn't be replaced with a foot lever mechanic instead. Shoot, place tip on the ground, hit the lever with your foot/leg, raise up and fire again. IIRC, the mechanism is a fairly straightforward up/down lever.

There are a lot of situations like this where you can probably explain how, in a particular situation, you totally could reload your repeating crossbow with your foot or the like. And, if it were required, I would want my DM to be amenable to listening to my argument ("I know I'm hanging from a rope with one hand, but I totally could wedge the level catch with the rope itself and pull away a bit. If the torque causes me to start spinning a bit, I can accept disadvantage on my next shot, but I totally could reload the thing!").

However, as a DM, if my player were to argue that they could do this regularly, in battle, as their bonus action, without compromising their non-bonus actions (so, like stabbing with a rapier X number of times with the main hand, and then shooting once with this crossbow in the off-hand (and also reloading, with the method described), I'd be pretty unconvinced.

[Brotherbock]

There are a lot of situations like this where you can probably explain how, in a particular situation, you totally could reload your repeating crossbow with your foot or the like. And, if it were required, I would want my DM to be amenable to listening to my argument ("I know I'm hanging from a rope with one hand, but I totally could wedge the level catch with the rope itself and pull away a bit. If the torque causes me to start spinning a bit, I can accept disadvantage on my next shot, but I totally could reload the thing!").

However, as a DM, if my player were to argue that they could do this regularly, in battle, as their bonus action, without compromising their non-bonus actions (so, like stabbing with a rapier X number of times with the main hand, and then shooting once with this crossbow in the off-hand (and also reloading, with the method described), I'd be pretty unconvinced.

Heck, I'm talking about dual-wielding two repeating foot-activated hand crossbows! Depending on the flavor of the campaign, I as a GM could be convinced :)

[Willie the Duck]

Heck, I'm talking about dual-wielding two repeating foot-activated hand crossbows! Depending on the flavor of the campaign, I as a GM could be convinced :)

Okay, depending on the campaign, go for it. OTOH, depending on the campaign, using longswords as thrown weapons or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon-level jumps are on the menu.

[Brotherbock]

Okay, depending on the campaign, go for it. OTOH, depending on the campaign, using longswords as thrown weapons or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon-level jumps are on the menu.

Totally. I usually run for more realism, but I have a buddy who, particularly for games he runs at conventions, goes for the 'oh sweet do it!' sort of rules. And I've run one-offs more like that sometimes.

Honestly, I see it as just the next step up from everyone 'dipping for synergy' without a thought given to why their character would actually do that. It's another level of power gaming. Not saying that to judge, just saying. (But I mean, why didn't Gandolf spend all that time trekking with the Fellowship across the continent helping to teach them all some magic--imagine Legolas with a level or two of Sorcerer. Outstanding :)

[Spiritchaser]

I’d be inclined to go with an AT rogue with hasten, and use your hasten attack to attack with sneak attack, then ready your action for a readied action reaction attack for a second sneak attack per round, you will ultimately hit 89 damage per turn with hasten up, though obviously this starts much lower and progresses.

You don’t need anything special for this, just straight AT rogue, though going full caster for 5 or 6 levels for fast 3rd level spells plus other toys does make sense as well.

[Shuruke]

I’d be inclined to go with an AT rogue with hasten, and use your hasten attack to attack with sneak attack, then ready your action for a readied action reaction attack for a second sneak attack per round, you will ultimately hit 89 damage per turn with hasten up, though obviously this starts much lower and progresses.

You don’t need anything special for this, just straight AT rogue, though going full caster for 5 or 6 levels for fast 3rd level spells plus other toys does make sense as well.

Only issue is
Takes 5 levels full caster to get haste
Like 9-11 on Paladin ranger

And 13-16 for AT rogue

Don't know exact numbers bit still that's a long wait
It would be better just to ask your caster to take haste in turn for your character paying him XD

[Shuruke]

Thanks Willie and Keravath. I was about to give an answer that was a lot more snarky. That probably wouldn't have helped.

On topic:
If you go away from -5/+10 you want either sneak attack or (pseudo) smite to boost damage. Both like crit... A lot. Sneak attack also likes action surge and haste (for ready action -> sneak attack on opponents' turn = double the sneak attack each round).

First consideration: How you build around having all that is very much a question of preference of (almost) at-will (sneak attack) or short rest (action surge/manoeuvres, whisper bard and hexblade) or long rest damage (haste, swift quiver). Campaign dependent.

Second consideration: how smooth do you want your power curve to be and which level do you start. Campaign dependent.

Third consideration: what other functions do you want to fulfill? Party dependent.

Fourth consideration: what kind of support can you expect from your party members? Party dependent.

Tbh their isnt anything I wanna achieve I just want people to be able to look through forum and see that u don't absolutely need sharpshooter as an archer XD u can pick something fun or more flavorful

[Rukelnikov]

Only issue is
Takes 5 levels full caster to get haste
Like 9-11 on Paladin ranger

And 13-16 for AT rogue

Don't know exact numbers bit still that's a long wait
It would be better just to ask your caster to take haste in turn for your character paying him XD

Why would it go Paladin or ranger?

He says go straight AT 1-20.

[Spiritchaser]

Notwithstanding the paladin ranger comment, it IS a long climb to hasten, but it’s with a progressively strengthening versitile single class character that has tonnes of out of combat utility and needs almost nothing special to do its job and do the extra ranged DPS. The fact that it deals out some diabolical sustained ranged DPS at mid levels and up can be considered as a worthy build goal, or just as a bonus on an otherwise perfectly capable character.

Going sorcerer (or whatever) for 5-6 levels is also perfectly valid. You’re not just getting this one trick

EDIT: For the record I’d probably go skulker and Elven Accuracy, but you certainly don’t have to

[Shuruke]

notwithstanding the paladin ranger comment, it IS a long climb to hasten, but it’s with a progressively strengthening versitile single class character that has tonnes of out of combat utility and needs almost nothing special to do its job and do the extra ranged DPS. The fact that it deals out some diabolical sustained ranged DPS at mid levels and up can be considered as a worthy build goal, or just as a bonus on an otherwise perfectly capable character.

That makes sense ^.^

I just wasn't sure if going a.t for haste would be comparable to making a ranger or whisper bard and going for Haste.

I know my current straight A.T feels like a monster but that's just cuz feels like he crits alot with Elven accuarcy.

Wasnt trying to be rude just curious

(Haste on ranger wouldn't be as good just due to lack of dice but wasn't sure cuz have never really looked at it outside of making a sweeping attack build that I dipped 3 hunter ranger for horde breaker.)