Sunbeam - As good as it seems?

[nickl_2000]

So I was just looking at the Sunbeam spell. That spells seems pretty bada$$. You do a 6d8 damage (save for half) each round, can hit multiple targets, and if they fail the save they are blinded for a round. That just seems like a super powerful spell to me.

Am I wrong there, or is it as good in practice as it seems?

[Willie the Duck]

It is a sixth level spell that consigns a caster (11th level or higher) to doing a shorter, lower damage, con-save Lightning Bolt each round that also blinds opponents. I find it... roughly appropriate for its' level (and quite nice for a druid, who doesn't otherwise have the best direct damage spells). The biggest issues are that 1) one lightning bolt is nice because you use it when you have a bunch of enemies lined up. A lightning bolt a round is less useful because that situation does not routinely show up multiple times per combat, 2) Blinding and getting multiple rounds of effect are semi-dissynergistic in that you cannot double-blind an opponent, and 3) again, this is a spell accessible only to full casters, and it takes up their action each round of the combat (unless you elect not to, but then you are wasting it).

None of that makes it a bad spell. It's just not a runaway awesome thing. It is a great way to conserve other spells-- A caster could spend a combat casting one Magic Missile, one Wall of Fire, and one Lightning bolt, plus 3-4 firebolts, or they could just cast this on round one and use up only it for the duration. It kind of lets a Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard play at being a Warlock (spamming a semi-impressive damaging effect) for a combat. Nice, but not overpowered.

[some guy]

snip

I agree with this. That said, if you know you are going to fight vampires it turns from nice to excellent as it is one of the earliest "true sunlight" spells. I think "Dawn" is the earliest but that one is a bit fiddly to use (after the first round creatures can easily move out of the area as it does damage on the end of a creature's turn (again, better against vampires because those also get damage at the start of their turn)).

[hymer]

I agree with most of what Willie the Duck has to say. I do want to point out the damage type, which is really good, and the Con save vs. Dex save for lightning bolt, which is less good, but at least avoids abilities that allows saves for half to turn into no damage on a made save.

I've only seen it cast by a druid, and it was relentlessly spectacular. Moon druid solo'ed an encounter by casting this, turning into an air elemental, and flying around and maximizing the effect by always being able to catch at least three enemies in it, until there weren't that many foes left. It was brutal, with an enemy unable to hit back effectively due to blindness (disadvantage on attack rolls and no opportunity attacks) and inability to catch up. And with no chance of escaping at all.
Casters with strong mobility, which druids can have, make the most of this spell. Combined with someone doing control to keep enemies from moving around too much, this is a cost effective (and fun) way to end some encounters.

With that said, I, like Willie, do not find it to be overpowered. It is somewhat niche in its uses, though teamwork can make that niche come about as needed. And then there are vampires and their spawn, who are absolutely brutalized by Sunbeam.

Edit: Partially shadowmonk'ed by some guy.

[BigPixie]

In a Tomb of Annihilation game, our druid destroyed the atropal with continuous radiant damage. So yeah I would say Sunbeam is pretty good.:smalltongue:

[OverLordOcelot]

2) Blinding and getting multiple rounds of effect are semi-dissynergistic in that you cannot double-blind an opponent,

You don't have to keep hitting the same opponent though - just spread the sunny love to all of your different enemies and refresh it when one of them goes unblind.

[Willie the Duck]

I agree with this. That said, if you know you are going to fight vampires it turns from nice to excellent as it is one of the earliest "true sunlight" spells.


I agree with most of what Willie the Duck has to say. I do want to point out the damage type, which is really good,
...
And then there are vampires and their spawn, who are absolutely brutalized by Sunbeam.


In a Tomb of Annihilation game, our druid destroyed the atropal with continuous radiant damage. So yeah I would say Sunbeam is pretty good.:smalltongue:

Alright, yes, it should be brought up that the damage type is solid. That should never be discounted. Every full spellcaster (particularly those that do a bunch of direct damage) should make sure that they have a fairly rounded-out list of damage types in their spell repertoire. Thus the awesomeness of this spell is going to be dependent on the rest of your spells available.


I've only seen it cast by a druid, and it was relentlessly spectacular. Moon druid solo'ed an encounter by casting this, turning into an air elemental, and flying around and maximizing the effect by always being able to catch at least three enemies in it, until there weren't that many foes left. It was brutal, with an enemy unable to hit back effectively due to blindness (disadvantage on attack rolls and no opportunity attacks) and inability to catch up. And with no chance of escaping at all.
Casters with strong mobility, which druids can have, make the most of this spell. Combined with someone doing control to keep enemies from moving around too much, this is a cost effective (and fun) way to end some encounters.

And here's where any niche spell shines. Mobility (and durability, at least compared to the wizards and sorcerers who would otherwise be casting this), definitely negate one of the defining weaknesses of this spell: lining up more than one opponent in a shot. That's absolutely the kind of synergy you need to find between spells and abilities as a full spellcaster. This is the kind of thinking that the OP needs to be doing if they want to make this a signature spell.

[Chronos]

By design, 6th level spells are supposed to be significantly better than 5th level spells. There should be a bigger difference between a 6th and a 5th than between a 5th and a 3rd. Likewise, 3rd level spells should be significantly better than 2nd, and 9th level spells should be significantly better than 8th. The game is designed with the assumption that the players will get a big boost in power at levels 5, 11, and 17, and for spellcasters, most of that big boost comes from having more powerful spells (note also that those are the levels where cantrip damage increases).

[jaappleton]

Its a repeatable line of Sunlight Radiant damage that blinds.

Yes. Yes, its very good.

IT is AMAZINGLY good on a Sorcerer with Quickened. Why? Because you Quicken to cast it as a bonus action, then use your action the same turn to blast it again.

Also very good with Extended Spell.

[Solid_Snek]

It's a good spell, though not party friendly. Blinding your allies, not to mention damaging them, is setting your group up for a bad time.

[Willie the Duck]

It's a good spell, though not party friendly. Blinding your allies, not to mention damaging them, is setting your group up for a bad time.

While certainly true for this spell, the hazards of potentially catching your allies in your area-of-effect spells is a hazard of all AOEs (so much so that both iconic blaster classes have avenues of circumventing it).

[Chronos]

And a line is usually an easier area of effect to avoid hitting allies with than something like a sphere. Though you also won't usually catch as many enemies in it.

[OverLordOcelot]

It's a good spell, though not party friendly. Blinding your allies, not to mention damaging them, is setting your group up for a bad time.

If you keep hitting your party members with AOE spells, especially ones that have a very aimable 60' long, 5' wide area, the problem is not that the spell is 'not party friendly', the problem is that you're not party friendly. If you don't want to blind and damage your allies you just... don't aim it to hit them. There are spells like sickening radiance (30' radius) that are hard to lay down without hitting friendly targets, but this is not one of them.

[nickl_2000]

If you keep hitting your party members with AOE spells, especially ones that have a very aimable 60' long, 5' wide area, the problem is not that the spell is 'not party friendly', the problem is that you're not party friendly. If you don't want to blind and damage your allies you just... don't aim it to hit them. There are spells like sickening radiance (30' radius) that are hard to lay down without hitting friendly targets, but this is not one of them.

I was thinking the same thing. A 5 ft radius is fairly easy to aim, this isn't a fireball after all.

[jaappleton]

I was thinking the same thing. A 5 ft radius is fairly easy to aim, this isn't a fireball after all.

Exactly! There’s only a few high level damage AoE Radiant spells.

Sickening Radiance lv4
Dawn lv5
Sunbeam lv6

And Sunbeam is the ONLY ally-friendly one!

There’s Spirit Guardians at lv3, and it scales nicely, but the spell itself isn’t high level so I didn’t include it.

[hymer]

Exactly! There’s only a few high level damage AoE Radiant spells.

Sickening Radiance lv4
Dawn lv5
Sunbeam lv6

And Sunbeam is the ONLY ally-friendly one!

There’s Spirit Guardians at lv3, and it scales nicely, but the spell itself isn’t high level so I didn’t include it.

*cough* Sunburst!

[Zanthy1]

I personally love Sunbeam, though I'll admit I only know it from reading as i've yet to see it used in one of my campaigns. I like how its not a continual beam that you move, but each rough you can shoot one out for the duration. So for example, you blast 3+enemies who are in a line. They scatter/die and on your next turn you aren't able to get a good shot. Your hands still glow (so long as you maintain concentration), but it free you up to shrek a fool one on one, then the next turn if you see a solid line you can blast. Its like you're goku and you can time your Kamehameha blasts

[jaappleton]

*cough* Sunburst!

Absolutely not ally friendly, and not Concentration repeatable. Thought i should’ve said ‘Concentration Repeatable’ in my post.

[jaappleton]

I personally love Sunbeam, though I'll admit I only know it from reading as i've yet to see it used in one of my campaigns. I like how its not a continual beam that you move, but each rough you can shoot one out for the duration. So for example, you blast 3+enemies who are in a line. They scatter/die and on your next turn you aren't able to get a good shot. Your hands still glow (so long as you maintain concentration), but it free you up to shrek a fool one on one, then the next turn if you see a solid line you can blast. Its like you're goku and you can time your Kamehameha blasts

Exactly.

I maintain that Sun Souls should’ve gotten a version of Sunbeam instead of their lv11 feature, which deals NO damage on a miss.... such an oversight. Ugh.

[NecroDancer]

Also keep in mind that you can use it multiple times. Compared to a spell like Disintegrate which can only be used once and might even not hit anything sunbeam is nice because your 6th level spell can be be used multiple times per fight.

[Solid_Snek]

If you keep hitting your party members with AOE spells, especially ones that have a very aimable 60' long, 5' wide area, the problem is not that the spell is 'not party friendly', the problem is that you're not party friendly. If you don't want to blind and damage your allies you just... don't aim it to hit them. There are spells like sickening radiance (30' radius) that are hard to lay down without hitting friendly targets, but this is not one of them.

The issue is that "just don't hit them" isn't always an option if you want to hit your enemies. Heckles, I would say that more times than not you will be making a hard decision on to hit an ally or not. But it isn't damage that's the issue, blind an ally and it's going to hurt.

So unless you get the first shot, you won't always get a clean hit. I guess if your DM has you playing against unintelligent creatures, then you might have a lot of clean hits after initiative is rolled.

Things don't always line up all nice and clean.

[OverLordOcelot]

The issue is that "just don't hit them" isn't always an option if you want to hit your enemies. Heckles, I would say that more times than not you will be making a hard decision on to hit an ally or not. But it isn't damage that's the issue, blind an ally and it's going to hurt.

Yes, it is almost always an option. We're talking about a 5' wide, 60' long effect. Unless you're in pathologically cramped spaces (like a hall where you can't get by any party members) or something contrived like "you have a big audience within 60' that you don't want to hurt" you can, if nothing else, aim to hit one enemy and no friendlies. This is pretty true for a 'stand back and blast' type, and even more true for someone like a moon druid or bladesinger who's mobile and not afraid to get in close.


So unless you get the first shot, you won't always get a clean hit. I guess if your DM has you playing against unintelligent creatures, then you might have a lot of clean hits after initiative is rolled.

Please describe what you're considering a typical area to fight in, number of 'intelligent' creatures, number of allies, and how they are arranged such that every single 12 square long, 1 square wide line always has to hit a friendly if it hits one enemy. It's not a matter of 'intelligence', it's a matter of basic geometry - you have to have the enemy somehow forcing PCs to make a line behind the only direction you can choose to shoot at them.

[Willie the Duck]

The issue is that "just don't hit them" isn't always an option if you want to hit your enemies. Heckles, I would say that more times than not you will be making a hard decision on to hit an ally or not. But it isn't damage that's the issue, blind an ally and it's going to hurt.

So unless you get the first shot, you won't always get a clean hit. I guess if your DM has you playing against unintelligent creatures, then you might have a lot of clean hits after initiative is rolled.

Things don't always line up all nice and clean.

I think everyone agrees with the basic premise of this, it just doesn't seem like a critique of the specific spell, so much as a general limitation on the Area-of-Effect combat function (spell, usually). So much so, as I said before, that both Sorcerers (through a specific metamagic option), and Wizards (through an archetype special ability) have specific abilities which attempt to mitigate this problem.

As I said about hymer's scenario of a moon druid casting it and zipping around as an air elemental to line up shots, successfully threading this needle is the challenge of turning this spell from a decent thing to have in your back pocket into something amazing (and worthy of being someone's signature spell).

[Chronos]

And that's why you have other spells, too. If you're in a situation where you can't use Sunbeam effectively, then don't use Sunbeam.

But realistically, with 30' of movement available and a beam that's only 5' wide, you should usually be able to find some way to get off a clean shot that hits at least one enemy but no allies. About the only way I can see that you couldn't would be if you're fighting in a 10' corridor and you've got two melee allies on an opponent the same size as them. And even there, they could position themselves to still give you a clear shot.

[Zuras]

Sunbeam is a quality spell for Moon Druids. I don’t know if it’s awesome for other classes, though.

6d8 damage is just OK for 11th level, and is really only worth it if you need to get through resistances or can reliably hit multiple enemies. On a single target, an upcast Moonbeam actually does more damage (6d10) at the same slot, plus more potential damage with forced movement shenanigans. Note that you can’t increase the 6d8 damage by upcasting it, unlike Moonbeam.

It’s still almost a must-prepare spell if you think you will encounter Vampires/Shadow Demons/etc., as it is close to an Auto-Win button against them.

Since almost nothing resists radiant, Sunbeam ends up being a default pick for Druids’ most powerful offensive spell, since it works OK against everything and can give you an auto-win against some enemies. It’s not a game changing powerhouse like Spirit Guardians though.

[Chronos]

That's a good comparison, actually. Spirit Guardians in a 6th-level slot is also 6d8 radiant damage in an area of effect every turn... but it doesn't keep using your actions, and it automatically doesn't hit friendlies. The real difference between the two is what lists they're on: Clerics have a lot of options for radiant damage, but wizards have relatively few.

[jaappleton]

You’re both missing that Sunbeam can blind, meaning their attacks have DisAdv while every attack against it has Advantage.

It’s also Sunlight. That’s important for some things.

As far as it being good on a Moon Druid and not other classes? See my previous post about Sorcerers. Quickened Let’s you blast as a bonus action and an action on your initial casting turn. Extended Spell isn’t bad with it either, considering you only get so many 6th level slots.

[Chronos]

Ah, right, forgot about the blinding; that is indeed useful. But it being sunlight mostly only matters against vampires, and it's tough to judge a spell by what it does to one specific monster.

And I don't think I would extend it. One minute is usually long enough to finish one combat, and two minutes isn't usually long enough for two combats, so the extension won't usually make a difference.

[MrStabby]

I found it awesome facing casters.

Most casters have poor constitution saves.

Most casters care about HP loss sooner than non casters.

Lots of spells stipulate a target or point that you can see, so the blinded condition is pretty limiting.

[Dalebert]

You can always get at least 2 people in a line. Basic geometry. Just sayin'. Lots of movement helps so I can see how this would be nice on an moon druid air elemental as discussed earlier.

[Willie the Duck]

You can always get at least 2 people in a line. Basic geometry. Just sayin'.

Unfortunately, it's actually three people in the line, one of them being the caster. And who they might be standing next to at the end of their turn can really influence your decisions.

[Chronos]

As an aside, don't forget to think three-dimensionally. If the enemies are taller than your party (as a lot of monsters are), then you can miss your allies by shooting over their heads.