Archmage taking the same High Arcana several times?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

What's your opinion on an Archmage taking the same High Arcana several times?
I've always assumed it was possible when it made sense, such as with the "spells as SLAs" one. But today I got into a rules debate and couldn't think of any evidence in favor of this position.
Help please?

Second question: an Archmage trades away all of their level 9 slots to get SLAs, including their bonus one from high ability scores. What happens when they get hit with an Int decrease? By RAW, do they lost access to an SLA or not?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

1. I think this question is about Spell Power, since the other abilities either don't make sense to take multiple times or have specific clauses on what happens if you take it multiple times (SLA, Arcane Reach). I would personally argue that the High Arcana feature allows you to choose any ability from the list, including ones you've taken before, but taking Spell Power twice counts as receiving two bonuses from the same source, which do not stack. It's not ironclad though.

2. You lose the slot when you gain the feature. In other words, the high-INT benefit of an additional 9th level slot is removed when you take the relevant High Arcana (assuming you're out of base slots). INT damage or the like usually removes that benefit, but it's already gone, and you've already paid for the High Arcana. You don't lose anything, except possibly the ability to reflect on your poor choice of trading away all your 9th level slots in the first place.

[Kayblis]

1. By RAW, it's not settled. You can argue either way, because there's no restriction like Secrets in the Loremaster PrC. Some of them like Arcane Fire are unrestricted abilities, so it doesn't make sense to pick it twice because there's no added benefit, but it's not forbidden. I'd rule you can pick the same power twice, but the same effect won't stack with itself unless otherwise noted.

2. You permanently eliminate a spell slot you have to pick a special ability. From that point on, you don't have the spell slot anymore. If you have 0 spell slots and recieve a penalty to INT that would decrease it, you still have 0 spell slots.

[ezekielraiden]

What's your opinion on an Archmage taking the same High Arcana several times?
I've always assumed it was possible when it made sense, such as with the "spells as SLAs" one. But today I got into a rules debate and couldn't think of any evidence in favor of this position.
Help please?

I agree--if "when it makes sense" is replaced with "when it says you can." SLA can be taken up to five times if you have the spell slots; arcane reach can be taken twice; all others can be taken once. The only ability which is meaningfully nerfed by this is Spell Power. The SLA ability explicitly says it can be taken more than once: "If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell."


Second question: an Archmage trades away all of their level 9 slots to get SLAs, including their bonus one from high ability scores. What happens when they get hit with an Int decrease? By RAW, do they lost access to an SLA or not?

By RAW this is actually impossible, and I feel silly for not realizing that earlier. (This is an edit.) You only have access to 9th level spells at four character levels: 17, 18, 19, and 20. Therefore, you could not possibly--even as a generalist!--get access to more SLAs than you have actual 9th level slots, unless you become an Epic-level character (and even then, 9th is no longer the best spell on the block, why not have an epic spell as an SLA?) And a Specialist never has fewer 9th level slots than she could possibly have SLAs. Pre-Epic, a Specialist Wizard always has 1 more 9th level slot than she could possibly have High Arcana-granted 9th level SLAs; and by level 21 she has exactly as many as she could spend on SLAs (assuming she took Archmage at each level from 17 to 21).

So...yeah. Even if you wanted this, it's not possible pre-epic, and the most likely entrant (Specialist Wizard) never has to worry about it in the first place. Well, other than worrying about losing your one and only remaining 9th level slot. (And this doesn't even cover how you should at least take Spell Power once, because a measly 5th level slot for permanent +1 CL is a great deal--considering that a 5th level pearl of power is 25k, while an orange prism ioun stone is 30k.)

[TalonOfAnathrax]

For context:

1. This is for an NPC build: I wanted a Jade Phoenix Mage who could cast Body Outside Body and then have duplicates with a bunch of powerful SLAs. He would then send the doubles to harass the PCs every day (the doubles would be casting Miracle and burning XP to find them, and focus on using Transcend Mortality and Divine Power in combat. If possible, he should have Divine Defiance too).

2. You are indeed correct, barring some very stupid build choices it seems impossible to swap out every single level 9 spell. However I may end up forced to make some very stupid build choices to make these encounters happen. Not sure yet, still building.

[ezekielraiden]

For context:

1. This is for an NPC build: I wanted a Jade Phoenix Mage who could cast Body Outside Body and then have duplicates with a bunch of powerful SLAs. He would then send the doubles to harass the PCs every day (the doubles would be casting Miracle and burning XP to find them, and focus on using Transcend Mortality and Divine Power in combat. If possible, he should have Divine Defiance too).

2. You are indeed correct, barring some very stupid build choices it seems impossible to swap out every single level 9 spell. However I may end up forced to make some very stupid build choices to make these encounters happen. Not sure yet, still building.

Since JPM loses 2 "+1 level of casting class" levels, this would seem to count double. You only have two levels (19 and 20) where the character is capable of 9th level spells, so (again unless you go Epic) you can't possibly spend more than two 9ths on SLAs.

Also, since you've mentioned miracle and divine power...divine casters don't qualify for JPM nor Archmage, nor do Wu Jen get either of those spells. For that matter, no arcane casters get turn undead to power Divine Defiance (AFAIK). So this must be one really gorram crazy build if it can fit Wu Jen to 9th level spells, JPM, 9th level divine spells, turn undead, and 5 levels of Archmage! If it were some kind of crazy gestalt, maybe...but you'd still have a devil of a time fitting all the feats gland prerequisites....

[Troacctid]

For that matter, no arcane casters get turn undead to power Divine Defiance (AFAIK).
Death master and dread necromancer both get rebuke undead, and anyone can get turning via feats.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Since JPM loses 2 "+1 level of casting class" levels, this would seem to count double. You only have two levels (19 and 20) where the character is capable of 9th level spells, so (again unless you go Epic) you can't possibly spend more than two 9ths on SLAs.

Also, since you've mentioned miracle and divine power...divine casters don't qualify for JPM nor Archmage, nor do Wu Jen get either of those spells. For that matter, no arcane casters get turn undead to power Divine Defiance (AFAIK). So this must be one really gorram crazy build if it can fit Wu Jen to 9th level spells, JPM, 9th level divine spells, turn undead, and 5 levels of Archmage! If it were some kind of crazy gestalt, maybe...but you'd still have a devil of a time fitting all the feats gland prerequisites....
1. As I said, I know. It's an amazingly unlikely outcome (you'd need to put the +1 spellcasting level into another class, but use High Arcana for the level 9 spellcasting one). I'd thought of doing it in case I had to put the +1 spellcasting into Cleric to get Divine Defiance, but I thought about it today and remembered that an archmage can't do that AND that I can just make the character an Illumian.

2. I was actually planning on taking the Arcane Disciple feat to get Miracle, and making it an SLA through Archmage to bypass the "use it only 1/day" limitation.
Here are the kind of builds that I was thinking of:

Illumian, 1 Cleric Level (with Magical Training and two flaws for Alternative Source Spell and Precocious Apprentice), Wu Jen 2, and then Mystic Theurge levels (taking Martial Study twice and Martial Stance once, worshiping an Elder evil for bonus feats to make it go faster), and then taking 10 levels of JPM starting at level 7 (thanks to Elder Evil bonus feats, the martial maneuvers and stance can be obtained with feats at level 3, 5 and 6). Archmage rounds it out, getting Greater Dispel Magic as an SLA, Limited Wish as an SLA (for Divine Power) and Miracle as an SLA (because we allow Miracle to duplicate other level 9 spells if you pay 5000xp, and so they could use it to cast Transcend Mortality and Wish to arrive next to their target despite anti-Teleport barriers). This build is tight on feats, but technically works. Not sure if an SLA can be used to Counterspell though. NOTE: Amusingly, as far as I know it seems entirely possible to worship an Elder Evil while being neutral :D
The same thing, but dumping the Divine Defiance. It'd go Wu Jen 5, Crusader 1, JPM 10, Abjurant Champion 3, Archmage 1 (for Miracle as an SLA). The Abjurant Champion levels don't help with the trick I'm designing him for, but they definitely will help when the players inevitably track him down and try to kill him!
Wu Jen 1 (Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige), Anima Mage 4 (using retraining to avoid having the class unqualify itself), Crusader 1, JPM 10, Anima Mage +3, Archmage 1 (for Miracle as an SLA). Take Rapid Pact making and for the cost of 1 full-round action of their 1 minute duration, the suicidal copies can bind a Vestige. This lengtens their already significant buffing routine (spending 2 rounds buffing is a lot when you're only alive for 10!) but it is a significant power boost and it gives them an extra level 9 spell slot, which combines nicely with JPM for extra damage.


These builds are seriously cheesy, but the party is high-OP and high-level anyway, so... I expect them to take a casualty or two in the first few attacks (easily reversible, as this strategy can't stop Greater Resurrection). They'll probably lose allies or hirelings from the JPM explosions if they're at home. If I'm feeling especially cruel, I'll have the copies focus on damaging their gear. Then they'll figure out some way to track down the Mind Blanked enemy who's sending them muderous assaillants, and they'll kill him or bargain with him.
It'll definitely be cool though!

EDIT: For extra cheese, I could make this NPC a Spellstitched undead. It would fit the setting perfectly too!


And FYI, it is possible for an arcane spellcaster to get Divine Defiance through Sacred Exorcist (check its prerequisites). The real issue is getting the divine caster level 3, but that's what we invented Sha'ir for! Sadly the alignment requirement is a problem: I want this to be a Wu Jen for thematic reasons, and it's got to worship an Elder Evil because that's what the BBEG is.

[Troacctid]

And FYI, it is possible for an arcane spellcaster to get Divine Defiance through Sacred Exorcist (check its prerequisites). The real issue is getting the divine caster level 3, but that's what we invented Sha'ir for! Sadly the alignment requirement is a problem: I want this to be a Wu Jen for thematic reasons, and it's got to worship an Elder Evil because that's what the BBEG is.
Anyone can turn undead via the God Touched feat line in Dragon #305.