Thorn Whip and Darkness for a Monk?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all,

I am working on a Monk/Warlock build and have had a few other posts regarding it but I was wondering how you all feel about the Thorn Whip cantrip as a method to drag targets into a darkness spell, basically pulling a Batman through continuous yanking enemies into a cloud of inky blackness before beating the hell out of them with monk attacks next round? This seems to be a method to get around the issues of your allies not being able to see the target.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hello all,

I am working on a Monk/Warlock build and have had a few other posts regarding it but I was wondering how you all feel about the Thorn Whip cantrip as a method to drag targets into a darkness spell, basically pulling a Batman through continuous yanking enemies into a cloud of inky blackness before beating the hell out of them with monk attacks next round? This seems to be a method to get around the issues of your allies not being able to see the target.

It'd be awful messy, trying to do multiple things at once.

Notably, you'd need at least 2 levels into Warlock for the invocation needed to see through magical darkness, and Monk will need a high Wisdom and Dexterity on top of the 13 Charisma requirement of the Warlock, as well as any Constitution you feel you need as a melee combatant.

You *could* talk to your DM about looking into my Prestige Options (in my signature). One of them includes the possibility of going Archfey/Hexblade while using Wisdom, but it has a few requirements to ensure that dipping isn't too strong of a choice.

[Citadel97501]

Yeah the MAD is strong with the build, but my ST gives us kind of crack stats so that really isn't a problem, although in trade off we seem to get 1 or 2 players dropped every fight...stupid crits...

[MightyDuck]

Hello all,

I am working on a Monk/Warlock build and have had a few other posts regarding it but I was wondering how you all feel about the Thorn Whip cantrip as a method to drag targets into a darkness spell, basically pulling a Batman through continuous yanking enemies into a cloud of inky blackness before beating the hell out of them with monk attacks next round? This seems to be a method to get around the issues of your allies not being able to see the target.

Two things, first is that if you're attacking them in the darkness you will be attacking them at disadvantage, so unless you've got a way to get around this its honestly not going to be worth spending a turn casting darkness, then spending another turn casting thorn whip and then only getting to attack on the third round of combat unless you flurry on the second round and this is all assuming that the enemy doesn't move away or around the darkness before you can thorn whip. Second, thorn whip has a range of 30ft and drags the target 10ft directly towards you and darkness is a 15ft radius sphere which means for this to work either you or the creature will have to be in the darkness and nobody move, cast it either near the target or your self and hope that they move into exactly the right position. Honestly, this just isn't going to work and isn't going to be consistent.

I would consider going shadow monk which gives you both darkness and the ability to teleport into the darkness and attack at advantage, alternatively go 4 elements monk and take water whip, its like thorn whip but better, allowing you to pull the enemy directly into melee range with you.

[Keravath]

Hello all,

I am working on a Monk/Warlock build and have had a few other posts regarding it but I was wondering how you all feel about the Thorn Whip cantrip as a method to drag targets into a darkness spell, basically pulling a Batman through continuous yanking enemies into a cloud of inky blackness before beating the hell out of them with monk attacks next round? This seems to be a method to get around the issues of your allies not being able to see the target.

My main question is why would you do this?

Darkness can be cast on an object that you can move around with. If you cast it on a stone you have attached to your waist with a string the darkness will move with you. Why would you bother using your action with thorn whip (allowing the defender to just run out of the darkness on their turn) when you can simply run up .. hit them a few times using your attack action with advantage if they can't see you (and possible bonus action attacks) and then just run away to allow your team mates to hit them? If they can't see you and you can see them, you have advantage and they do not get opportunity attacks.

Thorn whip just seems pretty useless in this situation.

I'd also second the suggestion of going shadow monk in this case since they work very well with darkness and can use ki to cast the darkness spell giving you a few more castings/short rest if you need them.

[Keravath]

Two things, first is that if you're attacking them in the darkness you will be attacking them at disadvantage, so unless you've got a way to get around this its honestly not going to be worth spending a turn casting darkness, then spending another turn casting thorn whip and then only getting to attack on the third round of combat unless you flurry on the second round and this is all assuming that the enemy doesn't move away or around the darkness before you can thorn whip. Second, thorn whip has a range of 30ft and drags the target 10ft directly towards you and darkness is a 15ft radius sphere which means for this to work either you or the creature will have to be in the darkness and nobody move, cast it either near the target or your self and hope that they move into exactly the right position. Honestly, this just isn't going to work and isn't going to be consistent.

I would consider going shadow monk which gives you both darkness and the ability to teleport into the darkness and attack at advantage, alternatively go 4 elements monk and take water whip, its like thorn whip but better, allowing you to pull the enemy directly into melee range with you.

Just to clarify a point. If you attack a target in darkness that you can not see then you have disadvantage. HOWEVER, if you are attacking a target that can't see you then you have advantage. Advantage and disadvantage cancel ... so if both you and your opponent are in darkness and can't see each other then it is a straight attack roll without disadvantage.

[sophontteks]

The combo doesn't work. You do not want to pull the creature into darkness. By doing so you are pretty severely hurting your party's ability to strike the creature. In addition you are doing this instead of using your stronger monk attacks.

A warlock who moves away from the party and blasts away inside darkness gets advantage on all his attacks because he is unseen, and enemies have to guess his location in order to attack him, and they do so at disasvantage. This is good darkness play that doesn't screw over your friends.

Using darkness in melee, however, will make your party members very, very salty. It could escalate in a very negative way if you keep doing this.

[Keravath]

The combo doesn't work. You do not want to pull the creature into darkness. By doing so you are pretty severely hurting your party's ability to strike the creature.

A warlock who moves away from the party and blasts away inside darkness gets advantage on all his attacks because he is unseen, and enemies have to guess his location in order to attack him, and they do so at disasvantage. This is good darkness play that doesn't screw over your friends.

Using darkness in melee, however, will make your party members very, very salty. It could escalate in a very negative way if you keep doing this.

Although I agree it can be a good idea to avoid getting your party members in darkness since it prevents abilities like reckless attack or the targeting of spells that require you to see the target, in general, it has a pretty minimal effect on normal attacks so I was wondering what your concern is?

If you are in melee, and you and your target can't see each other, then the attack roll is EXACTLY the same as if you CAN see each other. Advantage and disadvantage cancel. In addition, with a monk/warlock and their extra speed ... running in with darkness up ... attacking and running back out leaving the target in the clear is certainly a decent option.

This includes melee attacks into or out of darkness as well as ranged attacks into, out of or through darkness. RAW anyway.

[MightyDuck]

Just to clarify a point. If you attack a target in darkness that you can not see then you have disadvantage. HOWEVER, if you are attacking a target that can't see you then you have advantage. Advantage and disadvantage cancel ... so if both you and your opponent are in darkness and can't see each other then it is a straight attack roll without disadvantage.

You're right xD that's an embarrassing mistake in my part. That actually makes this strategy a little bit worse, the darkness is completely redundant if you're both in combat, I guess it makes it harder for enemies outside of the darkness to hit you but it also keeps the enemy inside the darkness safe from your allies.

[OverLordOcelot]

This doesn't sound like a good idea. First of all, thorn whip is extremely limited - it only pulls an enemy up to 30' from you 10' closer to you, takes your whole action, and doesn't hinder their movement. You're just going to drag the enemy into darkness, then they're going to move out on their turn. Even if they decide not to leave, dragging them into darkness doesn't do you much good, as you just attack them straight up (disadvantage for not being bale to see see them, plus advantage for them not being able to see you). Not sure what you're planning to dip for this, if you're trying to do the darkness + devil's sight combo then you can use one of your invocations for grasp of hadar, which gives you a better 'pull towards you' ability and not need to either go to level 3 warlock + tome or dip a level of druid to get thorn whip.

Your plan is probably going to do your enemies more good than harm, and in any case just doing straight attacks would be better.

[sophontteks]

Although I agree it can be a good idea to avoid getting your party members in darkness since it prevents abilities like reckless attack or the targeting of spells that require you to see the target, in general, it has a pretty minimal effect on normal attacks so I was wondering what your concern is?

If you are in melee, and you and your target can't see each other, then the attack roll is EXACTLY the same as if you CAN see each other. Advantage and disadvantage cancel. In addition, with a monk/warlock and their extra speed ... running in with darkness up ... attacking and running back out leaving the target in the clear is certainly a decent option.

This includes melee attacks into or out of darkness as well as ranged attacks into, out of or through darkness. RAW anyway.
- Your ranged teammates are practically out of the fight. They have to guess where the enemy is and they attack with disadvantage.
- Melee teammates don't get disadvantage if they are in the darkness, but they still have to guess where the target is.
- Teammates can't use any abilities that rely on sight.
- You are giving up your attack to do this vs. just casting darkness on an object you are holding.
- All your melee friends lose their reaction attacks if the target moves.
- The target can just move out of the darkness and attack your ranged players.

[Keravath]

- Your ranged teammates are practically out of the fight. They have to guess where the enemy is and they attack with disadvantage.
- Melee teammates don't get disadvantage if they are in the darkness, but they still have to guess where the target is.
- Teammates can't use any abilities that rely on sight.
- You are giving up your attack to do this vs. just casting darkness on an object you are holding.
- All your melee friends lose their reaction attacks if the target moves.
- The target can just move out of the darkness and attack your ranged players.

Keep in mind this depends on how your DM likes to play it which may differ from RAW.

"- Melee teammates don't get disadvantage if they are in the darkness, but they still have to guess where the target is."

No. This only applies if the target is HIDDEN. Both unseen and unheard AND this requires taking the hide action and passing a stealth check. If the target just can't be seen and they can't see you it is a straight roll.

"- Teammates can't use any abilities that rely on sight."

Correct. It does interfere with spells that require a target you can see. There are quite a few that don't ... fireball for example but some that do. In a recent game, we had a wizard in darkness cast a fireball on the opponents that couldn't see him. This effect depends on party composition and there are definitely times when darkness is not a good idea.

However, darkness also prevents opponents from using abilities that rely on sight too ... basilisk, vampire, spellcasters are all good examples since their nasty effects can be stopped by darkness.


"- You are giving up your attack to do this vs. just casting darkness on an object you are holding."

I don't understand this comment. In my previous post to the OP, I already suggested that the whole thorn whip idea made no sense. Cast darkness on an object you are carrying and run into attack. I use this on a PAM melee warlock and it generally works ok.

"- All your melee friends lose their reaction attacks if the target moves."

Yes. And so do opponents so you don't need to use the disengage action to reposition. Again it is a trade off. In my experience, the number of opponents running away tends to be much smaller than the number of players (like the caster who needs to move away from an attacker).

"- The target can just move out of the darkness and attack your ranged players."

Sure. but so what? They could go attack the ranged players anyway. If you mean that they can do so without taking op attacks then I agree with you.

Basically, use of darkness in melee is a bit situational but can be very useful to the warlock who can see through it and gains advantage on attacks and disadvantage on being attacked while being situationally disruptive to the party since it doesn't really affect anyone's chance to hit with weapons or attack spells.

Darkness also has some interesting effects on other interactions.
Advantage and disadvantage don't stack so any additional source of advantage or disadvantage do NOT affect fights in darkness.

-if a team mate is grappled or restrained then casting darkness will make both their attacks and the attacks of other opponents against them straight rolls instead of advantage/disadvantage
- casting darkness will eliminate the advantage on to hit against paralysed opponents. Very useful if a team mate gets paralysed.
- darkness eliminates the disadvantage for firing ranged weapons with an opponent adjacent
- darkness eliminates the disadvantage for firing ranged weapons at long range
- darkness eliminates advantage for attacks against a prone target - very useful when fighting something that knocks your team mates prone (eg maybe monks)
- if your team mates are poisoned ... cast darkness to cancel the disadvantage on attack rolls.
(All of these assume that opponents can't see each other)

There are a lot of uses for darkness for addressing conditions that cause advantage/disadvantage on attack rolls.

[sophontteks]

You can do it if you want to, but I've read enough threads about salty players who are sick of their melee warlock constantly casting darkness and ruining their experience.

Its something that doesn't happen when the warlock just uses darkness on himself and doesn't force the party to deal with it as well.

[MightyDuck]

I think the greatest issue with this setup is that it's a 3 turn maneuver with no payoff whatsoever.

1st round- cast darkness and maybe bonus action dodge
2nd round--cast thornwhip and move into melee, maybe use flurry of bows
3rd round--now you can attack but with no advantage

Even if you really want to ambush the enemy in darkness it makes more sense to just cast darkness on them or, like many have suggested, on an object on your person, and then just move into melee with them. There is still no benefit for doing so but at least it doesn't waste a turn.

[Citadel97501]

I think the greatest issue with this setup is that it's a 3 turn maneuver with no payoff whatsoever.

1st round- cast darkness and maybe bonus action dodge
2nd round--cast thornwhip and move into melee, maybe use flurry of bows
3rd round--now you can attack but with no advantage

Even if you really want to ambush the enemy in darkness it makes more sense to just cast darkness on them or, like many have suggested, on an object on your person, and then just move into melee with them. There is still no benefit for doing so but at least it doesn't waste a turn.

I really think this is more for a terrifying ambush move more than a fair fight, as you don't want to cast Darkness during the round but if you are, here is the order as I see it. For basically Darkness tanking...

Target: Not the big bad but strong lieutenants or support characters, really good if you can drop him in 2 rounds.
Range: 50' or more away.
Invocations: Devil's Sight
1st round: Cast Darkness probably on an item on you. (Bonus action not necessary as they can't see you, but you can see them.)
2nd Round: Move 40+ feet, Thorn Whip drag them another 10' probably at an angle so your allies can see other targets.
-Attempts to escape gets punched, if they attack you likely missing.
3rd round: Proceed to thump them into next week, with 3+ attacks with advantage.

[Misterwhisper]

I really think this is more for a terrifying ambush move more than a fair fight, as you don't want to cast Darkness during the round but if you are, here is the order as I see it. For basically Darkness tanking...

Target: Not the big bad but strong lieutenants or support characters, really good if you can drop him in 2 rounds.
Range: 50' or more away.
Invocations: Devil's Sight
1st round: Cast Darkness probably on an item on you. (Bonus action not necessary as they can't see you, but you can see them.)
2nd Round: Move 40+ feet, Thorn Whip drag them another 10' probably at an angle so your allies can see other targets.
-Attempts to escape gets punched, if they attack you likely missing.
3rd round: Proceed to thump them into next week, with 3+ attacks with advantage.

Or you could just save yourself multiclass slowdown , stats you won’t use and just be a monk and punch them 12 times in those 3 rounds.

Open hand to stop their reactions and knock them prone.
Drunken master to move anywhere you want.
Sun soul to do it from range and of an element that is almost never resisted.
Shadow to do it without them knowing you are there
4 elements... well nobody plays them.
Long death to harvest some health on the way.

[Toofey]

M

Darkness can be cast on an object that you can move around with.

Nope, Darkness is immobile in 5e

[Citadel97501]

Nope, Darkness is immobile in 5e

This is incorrect, darkness moves with the object according to the 2nd paragraph of the spell on page 230.

[MightyDuck]

I really think this is more for a terrifying ambush move more than a fair fight, as you don't want to cast Darkness during the round but if you are, here is the order as I see it. For basically Darkness tanking...

Target: Not the big bad but strong lieutenants or support characters, really good if you can drop him in 2 rounds.
Range: 50' or more away.
Invocations: Devil's Sight
1st round: Cast Darkness probably on an item on you. (Bonus action not necessary as they can't see you, but you can see them.)
2nd Round: Move 40+ feet, Thorn Whip drag them another 10' probably at an angle so your allies can see other targets.
-Attempts to escape gets punched, if they attack you likely missing.
3rd round: Proceed to thump them into next week, with 3+ attacks with advantage.

The problem is that there are easier ways to get advantage than multiclass into warlock, taking a specific invocation just for the sake of this setup, taking 2 full turns just to get them in position and then having no way to stop them from just leaving (sure you can punch them once but that isn't gonna do much). This is also assuming that the creature doesn't have magic that could dispell the darkness, doesn't have any sort of blind sense, can't fly/burrow/teleport or do anything else that just allows it to leave or bypass the spell. There are also the disadvantages of you aliies not being able to hit the enemy, the MAD requirements for a viable warlock/monk multiclass and getting to a high enough level of monk to have a decent unarmed damage die.

Here is a much simpler set up that does the same thing but better;

Same situation, range and devil sight innovation as in your example.

1st round- cast darkness in an item on your person, move 40ft and then bonus action step of the wind to get into melee.
2nd round--hit them 3 or 4 times at advantage
3rd round--do it again, etc, etc.

Just cut thorn whip and you get another round of attacks. Of course there are easier ways to get the same or even better effects, like;

Round 1- move into combat range, attack, stunning strike (you now have advantage and the target can't escape
Round 2- keep attacking and refresh the stun, etc, etc.

[Deox]

I really think this is more for a terrifying ambush move more than a fair fight...

This. I am currently playing a (Shadow) Monk / (Raven Queen) Warlock that focuses on exactly this. The group encourages me to actively scout with my self and raven to find adequate choke points or "kill boxes". Then, I'll set up a darkness and utilize Eldritch Blast + Grasp of Hadar, pulling a choice target into the darkness. After which, my character will grapple / hold the target to prevent further engagement, while the party picks off others in the confusion.

It's a tactic that is not always available, however it is very strong when it does go off.

[OverLordOcelot]

I really think this is more for a terrifying ambush move more than a fair fight, as you don't want to cast Darkness during the round but if you are, here is the order as I see it. For basically Darkness tanking...

Target: Not the big bad but strong lieutenants or support characters, really good if you can drop him in 2 rounds.
Range: 50' or more away.
Invocations: Devil's Sight
1st round: Cast Darkness probably on an item on you. (Bonus action not necessary as they can't see you, but you can see them.)
2nd Round: Move 40+ feet, Thorn Whip drag them another 10' probably at an angle so your allies can see other targets.
-Attempts to escape gets punched, if they attack you likely missing.
3rd round: Proceed to thump them into next week, with 3+ attacks with advantage.

This requires doing a lot of work, burning one of two spell slots, and dropping 3+ levels in another class to do what a straight monk could do in one round without so much complexity, and unless the layout of the battle is very perfect for you involves blocking your allies from seeing the enemy with darkness, and this requires the enemy to cooperate with you. And this only works if the enemy is so weak you can drop them in one round.

1st round: Use 1 ki point to take a bonus action dash to cover the 50' since you'll have 80' or more of movement. Thump the lieutenant into next week, and then
2nd round: just... keep punching, because if this guy was important enough to warrant a strategy, one character with medium damage output attacking him for one round is not likely to kill him.

Or if you do want to use spells:
Pre-fight: Cast longstrider on yourself
1st round: Use your 50' movement to move directly to the target, using a ki point for disengage if needed, then punch.

Here's an alternate of the darkness strategy goes:
1st round cast darkness while running towards enemy. Party gets annoyed because your 15' radius darkness probably blocks the entire hall if you're indoors
2nd round Move to within 10' of the enemy, and instead of punching them cast thorn whip and hope you hit to move them withing 10' of you. Enemy takes the disengage action to 'attempt' to escape and moves away from you. Or soaks one hit and wails on someone not in darkness.
3rd round keep moving 10' from the enemy and thorn whipping him while he escapes.
4th round keep repeating the rather weak thorn whip damage until enemy is finally dead. One lieutenant weak enough that you could kill him in one round has now effectively reduced you to spamming a lower-damage cantrip instead of using your class abilities.

[Citan]

Hello all,

I am working on a Monk/Warlock build and have had a few other posts regarding it but I was wondering how you all feel about the Thorn Whip cantrip as a method to drag targets into a darkness spell, basically pulling a Batman through continuous yanking enemies into a cloud of inky blackness before beating the hell out of them with monk attacks next round? This seems to be a method to get around the issues of your allies not being able to see the target.
Suggestion below.


I think the greatest issue with this setup is that it's a 3 turn maneuver with no payoff whatsoever.

1st round- cast darkness and maybe bonus action dodge
2nd round--cast thornwhip and move into melee, maybe use flurry of bows
3rd round--now you can attack but with no advantage

Even if you really want to ambush the enemy in darkness it makes more sense to just cast darkness on them or, like many have suggested, on an object on your person, and then just move into melee with them. There is still no benefit for doing so but at least it doesn't waste a turn.
There is much truth into what you said, but at the same time, I don't think it's that big of a deal. At least not always.

For example, whenever parties start from a decent distance, you can pace yourself by casting Darkness on first turn instead of rushing with Dash as bonus action (which often implies rushing far ahead of your allies and maybe putting yourself into trouble).

If you want to use Thorns Whip, that may be simply because you want to conserve Ki for whatever reason: as far as dealing damage goes, considering the added rider it gives it can be considered competitive with Extra Attack.

As for attacking without advantage, that is simply wrong, because I know nobody that would multiclass into Warlock to cast Darkness and *not* pick Devil's Sight.
So this character would actually get advantage all the time.

Now, as far as "looking for a way to keep enemies inside Darkness goes", is it the best way? I'd put a strong "no" here. As a Monk, you have simpler ways to do that.


Or you could just save yourself multiclass slowdown , stats you won’t use and just be a monk and punch them 12 times in those 3 rounds.

Open hand to stop their reactions and knock them prone.
Drunken master to move anywhere you want.
Sun soul to do it from range and of an element that is almost never resisted.
Shadow to do it without them knowing you are there
4 elements... well nobody plays them.
Long death to harvest some health on the way.
Funny how you purposely avoid the one archetype that would totally fit OP's objective.
Water Whip especially, but also Unbroken Air.

Compared to Thorns Whip, Water Whip costs more (obviously) but has several advantages:
- DEX saves instead of attack (personal view: if you think you can reliably land a Thorns Whip, you probably can land even more reliably several attacks, so you'd better go with that).
- Pull OR set prones, for a bit extra versatility.
- Inflicts minimum damage whatever happens.
Unbroken Air has the same big drawback of costing resources but...
- STR save (another alternative to weapon attacks)
- Pushes AND sets prones (which is usually a good thing for melee. As for ranged allies, you already messed them up with Darkness so it cannot be worse XD).

@OP: Honestly, considering you want to get Warlock at probably level 3 for short-rest Darkness, my advice would be...
- Choose whether you want to use CHA or WIS (you said you'll have crazy stats. Good for you if it happens but you should think about otherwise in any case).
- Choose whether you want to have Darkness "on you ever" or carried by another creature (probably a familiar then).

CHA+Onyou -> pick Tome pact, get either Repelling Blast invocation + Thorns Whip or Grasp of Hadar only.
CHA+carried-> pick Chain pact and get Repelling Blast.
WIS+Onyou: go 4E, still pick Thorns Whip either to spare uses of Water Whip or as a complement to Unbroken Air.
WIS+carried: probably the same in fact, except you'll pick Unbroken Air as a priority.

NOTE: if you plan on going Warlock 5, then simply pick both Repelling + Grasp of Hadar in addition to Devil's Sight, which means you can go whatever Monk archetype you want.

THIS... Was for keeping true to your original idea.
Now, another way to go is....*drum rolls* simply pick one level into Rogue for Expertise: just with 10 STR, you'll have enough bonus to Athletics check to Grapple reliably most creatures. Once grappled you can either keep them in your self-darkness or drag them towards a semi-distant darkness.
Or drop the Darkness idea (if your friends don't like it) and simply pick Grappler feat to get advantage on your attacks as soon as you grappled anyone: less party synergy compared to everything Darkness can provide, but also 0 risk of actually nerfing party efficiency instead of helping. :)