How to skirt this edict?

[SangoProduction]

Edict 1: "No one may attack another person in the city."
Edict 2: "Hostile magic is forbidden in the city."

This is magically enforced indiscriminately to whomever is committing the act. It can be brute forced with an anti-magic field and by just beating the will saves, but that's sort of the more boring way to go about things. I want to bring out my inner politician (and those of my fellow giants here), and see if we can't logic our way past this.

Pathfinder rules, btw.

Grapple attempts work (and seem to by design, since that's the guards' preferred method of subduing petulant criminals), thanks to never requiring an attack roll. However the rules call this an attack, so it's probably safe to assume "If it doesn't involve an attack roll, it isn't technically an attack." Or maybe it has something to do with causing damage. I've yet to ascertain it. Healing spells and buff spells do seem to work fine as well...as would be expected. Although casting a positive energy heal spell on an undead is forbidden...again, as to be expected, but still.
Or maybe not as expected, as most wouldn't rank "Heal" as "hostile magic," but I guess the intent here counts. Or maybe the effect counts. Like if it required a save to resist.

And that's basically where our tests and observations ended before the session was out. And thus, here our logical analysis begins.

So, first step is to determine if certain words aren't all-encompassing, considering the vagueness of the edicts. "No one" seemed to apply to everyone, so that's out. "Another person", however, means that a character should still be able to attack themselves. Which means non-magical possession (perhaps by a ghost, or demon, or some such...if you consider those to not be magic...) ought to work. Also, presumably "person" entails only sentient beings. So if you perhaps got someone to ingest int-drain poisons, you might be able to attack them freely....or just give them killing poisons to eat, and save yourself the extra step.

The second edict seems harder to logic out of. Although you could probably use things like that Grease spell...and possibly anything that would simply indirectly harm someone. Like using Telekinesis to hover a rock over someone's head. But would that be an attack roll to do? Or would that entail a save, and suddenly turn it in to "hostile magic"? But it's the rock that's causing the save, not the magic. And what would happen if TK suddenly became "hostile magic"? Would it disappear, accomplishing the same goal?

[inuyasha]

Illusions and pit traps are two favorites of mine.

Digging a hole, or using magic to do so, probably doesn't count as a hostile spell or an attack, nor should filling the bottom of it with unsavory/sharp/acidic/burning things... you know... to keep them out of the hands of others so that they don't attack anyone.

From there, you can pop an illusion of the ground over the pit using whatever spells you have available, lure your poor target to the area, and bam, you've got yourself a pit trap.

I do know that the Advanced Player's Guide has a digging spell, though it's not great. I feel like there are better digging spells out there, not necessarily as awesome in scope as Move Earth, but I can't give any actual answers on that right now.

Side-note: I'm a huge fan of illusionists, and I think illusions will really help you in this place. Lots of nasty spells that aren't necessarily hostile.

[Silva Stormrage]

Just flying and dropping heavy things via shrink object should work as well. Get high enough up and just sky bomb their house.

You could also set up bombs of things like explosive runes. Set up a ton of them outside the city if they are counted as "Hostile" magic, bring them in and scatter the various objects with explosive runes on them across the city if you want widespread mayhem or in a particular area/where your target is headed.

[SangoProduction]

Illusions and pit traps are two favorites of mine..

Oo. Handy.


Just flying and dropping heavy things via shrink object should work as well. Get high enough up and just sky bomb their house.

You could also set up bombs of things like explosive runes. Set up a ton of them outside the city if they are counted as "Hostile" magic, bring them in and scatter the various objects with explosive runes on them across the city if you want widespread mayhem or in a particular area/where your target is headed.

Unfortunately, I do think "forbidden within the city" would entail bringing a "hostile spell" within the city.

But yeah. Heavy objects dropped from on high would be quite dangerous, and ought to subvert those rules.

[Silva Stormrage]

Oo. Handy.



Unfortunately, I do think "forbidden within the city" would entail bringing a "hostile spell" within the city.

But yeah. Heavy objects dropped from on high would be quite dangerous, and ought to subvert those rules.

I mean I figured that meant you couldn't cast hostile spells into the city. What happens if you suddenly have a bunch of hostile magic explosive runes while you are in the city? Do you feel compelled to leave?

Because if it's a mental thing you might be able to get around it via two ways.
1) Extradimensional space such as bags of holding. If you store and detonate the runes inside the bag of holding it might not count as "in the city". A huge hassle though to manage.

2) Use something like modify memory to remove the memory of having the explosive runes and then walk into the city. If it is based on intent or your own knowledge that should work.

Also the other option that might work. You mentioned it doesn't function in an antimagic field. Can you just build a golem that is immune to spells to start attacking people?

[Recherché]

Question, how would summoning/releasing an aggressive non-sentient animal into a confined space with your victim work? You aren't attacking anyone yourself, you're just letting the animal do what comes naturally. The spell in the summoning version isn't even technically aggressive, it's just summoning an animal without giving it any directions.

[TheCount]

Make it (look) like an accident! i mean, it only specify hostile magic and direct attacks....

it makes no mention of people running with (unsheated) sharp objects in thier hands, without looking where they go.....
just cast suggestion(s) like that?

maybe start doing stunts with increasing potential to harm onlookers? after all, who would have thought a gust of wind wouldlaunch the sharp knifes your buddy was juggling with at (the target) some unlucky passer-by?

[The Random NPC]

Illusions and pit traps are two favorites of mine.

Digging a hole, or using magic to do so, probably doesn't count as a hostile spell or an attack, nor should filling the bottom of it with unsavory/sharp/acidic/burning things... you know... to keep them out of the hands of others so that they don't attack anyone.

From there, you can pop an illusion of the ground over the pit using whatever spells you have available, lure your poor target to the area, and bam, you've got yourself a pit trap.

I do know that the Advanced Player's Guide has a digging spell, though it's not great. I feel like there are better digging spells out there, not necessarily as awesome in scope as Move Earth, but I can't give any actual answers on that right now.

Side-note: I'm a huge fan of illusionists, and I think illusions will really help you in this place. Lots of nasty spells that aren't necessarily hostile.

Don't forget to add warnings to cya. Like "warning sharp implements, do not touch!" Just be sure to put them in tiny print on the spike.

[SangoProduction]

Question, how would summoning/releasing an aggressive non-sentient animal into a confined space with your victim work? You aren't attacking anyone yourself, you're just letting the animal do what comes naturally. The spell in the summoning version isn't even technically aggressive, it's just summoning an animal without giving it any directions.

I don't actually know. Is there a compelling argument for the animal to not qualify for "no one"? Maybe one could argue that "no one" is often short for "no person" and as the summoned animal is not a "person", it isn't affected?


Make it (look) like an accident! i mean, it only specify hostile magic and direct attacks....

it makes no mention of people running with (unsheathed) sharp objects in their hands, without looking where they go.....
just cast suggestion(s) like that?

maybe start doing stunts with increasing potential to harm onlookers? after all, who would have thought a gust of wind would launch the sharp knifes your buddy was juggling with at (the target) some unlucky passer-by?

I do believe suggestion is not allowed.
However, for just doing indiscriminate damage, I guess that would work. You've just got to fail so hard that you manage to do damage incidentally. I don't know how this would work within the mechanics of pathfinder, especially when you don't have a critical failure system at the table.


Don't forget to add warnings to cya. Like "warning sharp implements, do not touch!" Just be sure to put them in tiny print on the spike.

lol

[Helluin]

Do these magical rules extend to the Ethereal plane as well? A night hag can slowly kill a creature over the course of a few nights from the Ether.

Also, you are allowed to poison food and drinks, right? You are not directly attacking anyone, but if those happen to be the dinner of your victim, well... would traps work in a similar fashion? Bringing a polymorphed Medusa to your enemy’s house?

[Hackulator]

Diplomancy people to leave the city.

Con them into getting into a reinforced carriage by replacing their driver or something, light it on fire/throw it in the river/just drive them out of town and murder them.

Burn down their house while they sleep.

Frame them for something that will get them killed.

[rel]

A lot of good options have already been covered. Here are a few more:

No hostile magic and no harming people. This says nothing of property. You can rob people you don't like, in fact they probably have a much harder time stopping you.
You can even engage in wanton destruction as long as no one is hurt directly and the methods employed are mundane.
Throwing alchemists fire at a peasant - verboten.
Throwing alchemists fire at at said peasants thatched roof cottage after strategically deploying a few hold portal spells or pitons - allowed.

With a suitably long ranged piece of magic or technology you could snipe a target from outside the city walls.

If pathfinder has any buff spells with side effects (like 3.5's burning rage from PHBII) they might work.

mundane debuff items like alchemists fire, caltrops, grease, glue or smoke (or their magical equivilants assuming they are benign enough to not trigger the ward) can be used to zone areas.
Throwing caltrops into a random section of back alley between you and the guards isn't an attack nor is it magic. It still slows the guards down enough to let you escape.

Finally, you can always convince (or coerce) people into leaving the city then jump them. Or just threaten to come after them if they don't do what you want.

[Manyasone]

If this is a Peace-bound city enforced by your DM, nothing of that will work...
Also firebombing and wanton destruction of property as some suggest will be likely frowned upon by local authorities.

[King of Nowhere]

Why are those limitations in act?
Because if those are the laws of the local city, then "skirting" them is not going to end well. You try arguing in a court of law "I didn't use any means of offence! I simply dug a hidden pit and waited the guy to fall in"
Basically, authorities in the city wants you to behave in a civilized fashion (such a heavy burden to place on murderhobos!). You either comply, or you fight the city

[Particle_Man]

Just flying and dropping heavy things via shrink object should work as well. Get high enough up and just sky bomb their house.

If that is allowed then I assume that seige weaponry from outside the city (ballista, catapults, etc.) would not be banned by that particular rule, although it would likely be considered an act of war.