What makes "Enlarge Person" good?

[StevenC21]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

Overall results:

-2 AC
+1 damage
Your weapon gets bigger and deals a tiny bit more damage.


All I'm seeing is a bonus to your damage here. You lose a bunch of AC and you don't get any boosts to hit.

Yet everyone loves the spell. Why is this? I really like the concept but it seems really trash in actuality. I'm not trying to sound inflammatory but I'm at a loss.

[Zaq]

One word: reach. Reach is extremely important in melee combat, especially early on.

[StevenC21]

What makes reach so good? The opportunity attack?

It's only one attack, which could be good at low levels but quickly stops being great at high levels.

[RoboEmperor]

What makes reach so good? The opportunity attack?

It's only one attack, which could be good at low levels but quickly stops being great at high levels.

It's a low level spell. You stop using it at higher levels.

[AlanBruce]

It's a low level spell. You stop using it at higher levels.

I have seen 14th level parties buff their melee guys with Enlarge Person first, followed by a bunch of other buffs.

The increased reach and damage from an enlarged weapon shines all the way to the endgame.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Give it to a Medium creature with a reach weapon, and BOOM! That 10' reach turns into 20'. 20' is a LONG way for melee attacks.

Plus, it grants +4 on LOTS of opposed rolls, like trip, disarm, etc. You know what also grants a similar +4 bonus? Feats. Lots and lots of feats. A single spell grants a similar bonus to a ton of feats. And they stack! Sure, the feats negate AoOs for those maneuvers, but enemies also can't make AoOs outside of their reach, either, which the size increase helps with.

And on top of all of THAT, you know what else it does? It makes those creatures that are immune to your melee maneuvers due to being 2 size categories larger than you NOT IMMUNE. So that Huge creature that you couldn't affect with your character's entire focus because it was too large is now subject to it, instead.

[RoboEmperor]

I have seen 14th level parties buff their melee guys with Enlarge Person first, followed by a bunch of other buffs.

The increased reach and damage from an enlarged weapon shines all the way to the endgame.

In my experience the war troll polymorph form or the hydra polymorph form dwarfs enlarge person so enlarge person stops seeing use when reach and the damage increase from the bigger weapon stop mattering.

In any case Enlarge Person is the best buff spell before polymorph. As the above poster says, 20ft reach with a reach weapon is nothing to laugh at.

[bean illus]

Enlarge + reach weapon (maybe oversized), + armor spikes, + combat reflexes is fun.

[Rebel7284]

In addition to potentially giving the target of Enlarge Person attacks of opportunity, if your are fighting something large or something that has reach, Enlarge Person stops those enemies from making attacks of opportunity against you.

[Jack_Simth]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

Overall results:

-2 AC
+1 damage
Your weapon gets bigger and deals a tiny bit more damage.


All I'm seeing is a bonus to your damage here. You lose a bunch of AC and you don't get any boosts to hit.

Yet everyone loves the spell. Why is this? I really like the concept but it seems really trash in actuality. I'm not trying to sound inflammatory but I'm at a loss.

Try putting it on a fighter with Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and a Guisarme (a reach, trip weapon). Anyone moves 15 or 20 feet away from him, and he trips them on the AoO - which of course keeps them from actually moving - then gets a hit in from Improved Trip. This means almost nobody reaches the squishy members of the party, who can pummel away with ranged effects (bows, spells, whatever) at their leisure.

[Epic Legand]

As the others have said, reach. But lets make the numbers more graphic. Medium char with normal weapon, threatens 8 squares. With reach and spikes ( or monk)24 squares. Enlarge them, The non reach gets 32 squares, and the reach version threatens ...96 squares. Imagine you don't just have combat reflexes, but add a few more feats to that, Agais could add more reach, so could many spells or other affects. Attacks of opportunity do not just change the number of attacks you get in a round, then change WHEN they happen in a round....get your turn, have your actions, your big move, attack whatever. Then its not your turn,,,and go again, and again. Massive return, small investment. From 24 to 96 squares.

[ezekielraiden]

Zaq (and MaxiDuRarity) has the core of it, along with other posters. With Medium size, you threaten 8 squares (9x9-1). With Large size but no reach (e.g. "large long"), you threaten (4x4-2x2) = (16-4) = 12, itself a 50% increase. With "large long" and reach, or "large tall," you threaten (6x6-2x2) = (36-4) = 32 squares, a 200% improvement.

Throw in a Reach weapon on tall (which all bipedal humanoids will have) for even more shenanigans. Large size grows quadratically because of area, not because of direct damage values (though those are still decent). And the feat-like-but-stacking bonuses. And the immunity to lots of things from any now-smallwr target.

Size is huge, no pun intended. Outclassing your opponents in size is a major reason why monsters can threaten PCs. Take that away from them, and you've done a big thing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The takeaway from this is that it's both how big you are AND how you use it.

[Fizban]

In addition to potentially giving the target of Enlarge Person attacks of opportunity, if your are fighting something large or something that has reach, Enlarge Person stops those enemies from making attacks of opportunity against you.
This. Once you've got a few levels under your belt, Medium enemies stop being a big thing (unless your DM is throwing tons of leveled humanoid NPCs at you, which are a whole 'nother can of worms), so you won't actually be getting AoOs for enemies trying to close with you very often. And half of char-op/tons of normal players can't stand still long enough to wait for it anyway, so they charge in.

But with 10' reach, you can attack that Large (tall) or Huge (long) enemy without getting AoO'd yourself, and that's pretty huge. Especially if your DM is also optimizing against you, so their big monsters will have the lockdown feats that PC lockdown builds use and you'll never get to melee if you don't have equal or greater reach.

Nigh-universally ignored Mobility and Spring Attack are other solutions to the enemy reach problem, giving you a massive AC boost (-20% from whatever their hit chance was before), or just letting you Spring in and ignore AoOs from that target on the way.

Meanwhile, 3.0 Enlarge didn't do any of that- no die increases, no reach. Yet the 3.5 version is somehow the same level? Sounds like a no-thought "minor update to unify mechanics" to me, and based on the obvious power of the spell I've bumped 3.5's Enlarge Person (renamed Gigantism) to 3rd. The damage is on par with 2nd-3rd level buff spells even without the reach, only "matched" by other spells that used EP itself as their balance point.

[Malphegor]

cheap buff, stacks well with other stuff, plus the utility of being bigger is fun even out of combat

[Crake]

Nigh-universally ignored Mobility and Spring Attack are other solutions to the enemy reach problem, giving you a massive AC boost (-20% from whatever their hit chance was before), or just letting you Spring in and ignore AoOs from that target on the way.

Or, you know, an easily achieved DC15 tumble check.

[OgresAreCute]

The takeaway from this is that it's both how big you are AND how you use it.

It's not how much you can lift, it's how good you look.

[Eldariel]

Reach (BIG ONE! 10' reach means free opportunity attacks, impossibility for mages to 5' step away to cast safely, archers unable to attack without taking a pummeling, etc.) - if you have Combat Reflexes, this is better. And reach weapon (like Guisarme or Spiked Chain) allows you to threaten things 15-20' away (and Unarmed Strikes or Armor Spikes can cover the 5'-10' area so you have no blind spots even without Spiked Chain).
Combat maneuver bonus. Size is +4. Strength is +1. This is straight-up +5 to all combat maneuvers. Most importantly Trip, but Grapple is occasionally useful and Disarm too. If you specialise in any of them (Improved Trip is, again, the best feat), you get huge benefits from almost certainly making the check and then opponent being more or less unable to act or attack back and you get +4 to hit vs. tripped opponents or allies getting to attack flat-footed grappled opponents or enemy not having a weapon or whatever.
Damage die bonus. It's not +1. It depends on the weapon. Greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6. That's 3.5 damage on average. The bigger weapon dice, the more this does. A character with level 20 Monk's unarmed attacks goes from 2d10 to 4d8; 11 to 18 on average, so +7 damage already. And if you're already Large (Large humanoids exist), the benefit is even bigger: 4d8 upgrades into 6d8 in Huge for +9 damage. This is in addition to the +1-+2 (for two-handed weapons when going from odd to even bonus - such as 20-22 Str is +7 > +9 damage) from Strength.



Or, you know, an easily achieved DC15 tumble check.

Halves your move speed though so with big enough reach, you might not even reach your opponent. And Tumble requires that you do not wear armor, which is a big trade-off for many martial types. And cramped quarters might mean there's nowhere to run if the reach is big enough. And there's always Thicket of Blades. But indeed, that's the best, easiest answer.

[Fizban]

Halves your move speed though so with big enough reach, you might not even reach your opponent. And Tumble requires that you do not wear armor, which is a big trade-off for many martial types. And cramped quarters might mean there's nowhere to run if the reach is big enough. And there's always Thicket of Blades. But indeed, that's the best, easiest answer.
And it's a cross-class skill that requires training, and its own chance of failure, and its own set of circumstantial penalties, etc (making it overlooked by simple melee types, requiring continuous investment, and keeping track of the exact total penalties- I find Tumble annoying and don't mind a bit if no one actually takes or uses it).

But I would have thought the best, easiest answer was equal reach :smalltongue: Overloooked feat or over-saturated skill, both lose to just carrying the proper weapon for charging into melee against big things, if that's what you want to do.


Oh, and to clarify on the die bonus: the standard one-handed weapon is 1d8, average 4.5. Longswords, battle axes, warhammers, morningstars, maces. 1d8 increases to 2d6, average 7. So the expected increase in damage for combat characters is a minimum of +2.5 damage, more for bigger weapons since they either to 1d10 to 2d8 or 2d6 to 3d6, both of which are +3.5 damage. And that's not counting the extra +1 from strength bonus. Which as +1d6 damage on a weapon is generally a 2nd or 3rd level spell (Frost Weapon, Sonic Weapon, Flaming Sword), this 1st level spell has that, plus other stuff (and the weapon increase multiplies on crits and ignores energy resistance). It's only other buffs that work off of size increase "logic" that completely blow those out of the water- most spells never give more than +2-4ish, even Fell the Greatest Foe gives its multiple d6' specifically in relation of your size to your foe's, meaning that the more you have the less you started with.

[Eldariel]

And it's a cross-class skill that requires training, and its own chance of failure, and its own set of circumstantial penalties, etc (making it overlooked by simple melee types, requiring continuous investment, and keeping track of the exact total penalties- I find Tumble annoying and don't mind a bit if no one actually takes or uses it).

But I would have thought the best, easiest answer was equal reach :smalltongue: Overloooked feat or over-saturated skill, both lose to just carrying the proper weapon for charging into melee against big things, if that's what you want to do.

That's true but against Enlarge, having equal reach requires having someone with Enlarge too; Clerics (with the appropriate domains) and Wizards can of course do that to themselves but Warriors are stuck with 250gp pots (Enlarge Person pot is exceptionally expensive) if they don't have a buffer handy. Mobility is generally a poor option since it costs two marginal feats, and taking an attack at +4 AC is still taking an attack and particularly if enemy is planning to Trip you, that attack is vs. your Touch AC so the +4 Dodge bonus might not even help much. Tumble is a great skill but as you said, there are some gotchas to it until you get to like level 9-10 where even cross-class ranks add up to +6 and you can easily have the Dex and magical bonuses to make the check easily enough.

[Fizban]

That's true but against Enlarge, having equal reach requires having someone with Enlarge too; Clerics (with the appropriate domains) and Wizards can of course do that to themselves but Warriors are stuck with 250gp pots (Enlarge Person pot is exceptionally expensive) if they don't have a buffer handy. Mobility is generally a poor option since it costs two marginal feats, and taking an attack at +4 AC is still taking an attack and particularly if enemy is planning to Trip you, that attack is vs. your Touch AC so the +4 Dodge bonus might not even help much. Tumble is a great skill but as you said, there are some gotchas to it until you get to like level 9-10 where even cross-class ranks add up to +6 and you can easily have the Dex and magical bonuses to make the check easily enough.
Enlarge Person only works on humanoids, the maximum size is large. Unless the DM has equipped these humanoids with both access to enlarge person and reach weapons. In which case you're fighting specialized humanoids, which as I said, are a whole 'nother can of worms. Otherwise you only need the basic reach weapon to match most large and huge foes. Enlarge Person potions are expensive because the table assumes you want a decent duration, same with other magic items that produce the effect, but there's no reason you couldn't order them cheaper. The vast majority of enemies have little or no reason to be trying to trip you, but as I said, if the DM is using control builds then naturally you don't want to walk through them, you want to match or exceed their reach. If you're fighting vanilla enemies with vanilla tactics, +4 is +4 (actually +5 when you include the dodge)- the cost of getting there isn't the point, yes we know no one likes Dodge or Mobility, but they exist and have numerical effects. Which apply to a good number of monsters. The most interesting part there is Spring Attack, because it's not actually about super-speeding your opponent so they can't reach you- it's just about negating their AoOs so they get one readied or charge vs your one spring. But it's also useful for closing with big things.

[King of Nowhere]

What makes reach so good? The opportunity attack?

It's only one attack, which could be good at low levels but quickly stops being great at high levels.

In addition to what everyone says about reach, which is totally great, even if the benefit was a single extra attack, it's nothing to scoff at. It's an extra attack at your highest attack bonus for free.
You know what else gives one free attack at your highest attack bonus? Haste. a decent third level spell.

I can't emphatize how great that is. Even at high level, when you may have 4 attacks per round, you either make a big power attack and miss most of those, or you don't power attack and deal moderate damage on each hit. Well, unless you are a ubercharger with shock trooper and pounce, but that's another thing entirely, it requires a proper build and a proper setup.
A single attack at your highest bonus that is outside of your full attack means you can apply power attack to it alone. So the aoo from reach is better than haste in this regard.
But wait, there's more. With haste, you only get your extra attack if you full attack, which you can't always do as you gotta move sometimes. with reach, you can take a move action and you still get attacks of opportunity. It's a free attack you make all the time. So there's another way in which it is better.
And anyway, that attack from reach stacks with the extra attack from haste, so you can have both.

So, even if you don't have a good reach/trip/aoo build - and those builds, together with uberchargers, are the best melee builds - just getting an attack of opportunity for free every round is a huge boon, especially for a level 1 spell.
Even if you are an ubercharger, which has much less use for reach, you could use reach simply to avoid your uuber charge getting stoopped by a tripper.

Of course, if all you do with enlarge person is throwing your beatstick at your opponent in melee, then the spell isn't doing much for you. enlarge person is great because it synergizes.

So, to sum it up what you get depending on your build and strategy:
- one handed weapon: +2/+3 damage
- two-handed weapon: +4/+6 damage
- smart use of reach: +4/+6 damage and one free attack
- smart use of reach and improved trip: +4/+6 damage and one free attack and +5 to opposed trip attempts
- dedicated reach build with combat reflexes, thicket of blades, mage slayer: TONS OF DAMAGE AND COMPLETE BATTLEFIED LOCKDOWN

[Quertus]

Of course, it's slightly situational, in that you cannot use it in close quarters tight hallways / low ceilings, it requires an even larger mount when in use, and isn't as good in a ranged fight.

[bean illus]

- dedicated reach build with combat reflexes, thicket of blades, mage slayer: TONS OF DAMAGE AND COMPLETE BATTLEFIELD LOCKDOWN

Lol. In purple, baby. So much fun


Of course, it's slightly situational, in that you cannot use it in close quarters tight hallways / low ceilings, it requires an even larger mount when in use, and isn't as good in a ranged fight.

Of course those situations mostly apply to the opponent, also. And since Enlarge is when you want it, you will rarely be big when you wish you were small.

[Zombimode]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

Overall results:

-2 AC
+1 damage
Your weapon gets bigger and deals a tiny bit more damage.


All I'm seeing is a bonus to your damage here. You lose a bunch of AC and you don't get any boosts to hit.

The Str boots increases you damage by 1 or 2 if your starting Str is uneven.

The "tiny" bit of damage through the increased size is likely a d6.


What makes reach so good? The opportunity attack?

It's only one attack, which could be good at low levels but quickly stops being great at high levels.

Picking the first of my high-level characters that I could find (Psychic Warrior 7 / Warblade 1 / Elocater 10) that would be 3d6+18 with just static modifiers. Add buffs, Power Attack and situational modifiers and you may be looking at 40-50 damage.

CR 17 enemies from the MM:
Aboleth Mage (177 HP)
Formian Queen (190 HP)
Frost Giant Jarl (231 HP)
Marilith (216 HP)
Mind flayer sorcerer (109 HP)

I will leave it to your own judgement if the increased possibility of getting one AoO (plus all the other benefits) is worth the one level 1 spell slot.

[ericgrau]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

Overall results:

-2 AC
+1 damage
Your weapon gets bigger and deals a tiny bit more damage.


All I'm seeing is a bonus to your damage here. You lose a bunch of AC and you don't get any boosts to hit.

Yet everyone loves the spell. Why is this? I really like the concept but it seems really trash in actuality. I'm not trying to sound inflammatory but I'm at a loss.

Basically: An overestimation of damage and reach. An underestimation of attack bonus, AC and action economy.

Something like bull's strength is way way better thanks to the +2 attack bonus and no AC penalty. Yeah it's a level higher, but action economy is way more important than spell level, and at levels 1-3 the risk of being one shotted makes defense way more important than offense. Even/especially for the front liner. Past level 3-4 you cast bull's strength, if you even have extra time to buff. Because otherwise even bull's strength is worse than most attack spells.

Let's take a simple case of a str 16+4=20 raging barbarian with enlarge person. Base damage = 2d6 + 7=14 avg. Enlarge person damage = 3d6+9 = 19.5 avg. About +40% dmg. Neat. Due to -2 AC the typical enemy gets about 20% more hits (if before he hit on a roll of a 10). Enemies with a poor attack bonus might get as much as 30% more dmg. Net gain of 20% or less dmg. And a much higher chance of rolling a new character or at least going unconscious from a few lucky rolls. Because chances are you were going to win that fight anyway, like most fights. But what you really want to do is win while limiting the risk of losing a character or having a character drop early from a few unlucky rolls and putting the rest of the party at high risk. A buff like protection from evil to take about -20% damage (sometimes -30%) is a much safer bet.

Reach isn't even worth considering as the impact is so trivial. Reach is NOT several attacks of opportunity. Seriously, reach is NOT several attacks of opportunity. It's rarely even 1. Most enemies only have to 5' step to you because you're already in front. Others might not engage you at all. Very rarely do you even get 1 attack of opportunity. If you're very very lucky an enemy might approach 10' away from you and stop somehow without using a range weapon, causing you to waste his action. Most likely he'll have a range weapon though, attack, and then approach within 10' while drawing his melee weapon for next turn. If you use reach all campaign maybe once or twice the entire campaign a tough enemy will eat your AoO on purpose because he can handle it and his extra melee damage is worth it. Yeah, almost no extra attack of opportunity ever. The only value is the threat of an AoO causing enemies to stop if you're blocking off a tight space and can't advance (perhaps the tight space ends).

So +5.5 dmg per hit, not per turn but per hit, and over half of that is negated by bonus damage to the enemies. Assuming about 75% of attacks hit, it's worth about 1.5-2 dmg per round. Not counting the effects of overkill, which wastes about 1/2.5/2=20% of that bonus on average. Because it's about 2.5 hits to kill a typical tough-ish foe, less on easier foes, more on lone strong foes, half wasted on last hit on average. So it's worth about +1.2 to +1.6 dmg per round. In a game where most of the fight is decided in the first couple rounds. Magic missile is a serious contender against enlarge person at level 1, and that's not saying much. Especially since you can reliably aim it low HP foes with little overkill. At level 3 magic missile is a clear winner over enlarge person. Often neither is worth the action and you should cast something else.

So enlarge person is utterly horrible for damage. Like many things, the appeal comes from "Ooh shiny numbers, an ability and I look huge", without ever mathing it. Then spreading that excitement with others on forums.

But where it is nice is that +5 to grapple or trip. That's when you cast enlarge person. But even then only if you have an extra buff round. Or also rarely to block a small corridor. The circumstances are so special that I prefer to scroll enlarge person. Even then I might not use it the entire campaign; I've tried and usually I don't. Technically I never have, someone else did instead, and the poor melee ended up in serious danger because he wasn't grappling/trippling. But like my many other dirt cheap 25 gp scrolls it will be super nice to have the right spell when I do hit a special situation. So together they don't add up to a lot of gp and a few of them will be incredibly useful. Even if I don't know which ones that will be ahead of time and most never get used.

On a related note, buffs that give an attack or AC bonus while reducing or eliminating combat time spent per benefit gotten are really good. Like greater magic weapon cast ahead of time on multiple allies. Or having your familiar release a held bull's strength or protection from evil (on levels 1-4ish) right before you cast your round 1 spell. And yeah, the damage bonuses from these are nice at low-mid level too.

[Remuko]

It's not how much you can lift, it's how good you look.

https://www.mobafire.com/images/avatars/zac-classic.png

I understood that reference

[Felyndiira]

Something like bull's strength is way way better thanks to the +2 attack bonus and no AC penalty....at levels 1-3 the risk of being one shotted makes defense way more important than offense...Past level 3-4 you cast bull's strength, if you even have extra time to buff. Because otherwise even bull's strength is worse than most attack spells.
At level 1-2, you don't have access to bull's strength. At level 4+, chances are, you've already acquired your +2 STR item which makes bull's strength partially redundant.


Let's take a simple case of a str 16+4=20 raging barbarian with enlarge person. Base damage = 2d6 + 7=14 avg. Enlarge person damage = 3d6+9 = 19.5 avg. About +40% dmg. Neat.
Size bonuses to weapon dice stacks. 3.5e, in fact, doesn't even have Paizo's size stacking errata, meaning that the enlarge person could easily turn into 4d6 > 6d6 or higher with other size modifiers.

+40% damage is significant while -2 AC is less so. Consider that Shock Trooper (lets you offset Power Attack's hit penalty to AC) is considered one of the strongest Fighter feats despite the hefty AC penalty, Karmic Strike is very popular, and Vulnerable is one of the most popular flaws that people take, and you see how little people value AC; while 20% less AC might kill you, you're far more likely to die from saves. Eliminating a target sooner is actually better damage mitigation than what AC can give you, as dead enemy targets have a 0% chance to hit you.


Reach isn't even worth considering as the impact is so trivial.
If you have reach and combat reflexes, a creature without reach has to eat an AoO to melee you. Sure, it might be standing 10' away and just have to do a 5' step, but that's not the norm at all; if the barbarian attacks one enemy, it's likely that his allies are not standing right next to them in AoE range. If a melee-specialist creature ends up being forced to throw a 1d6 javelin at you to avoid eating an AoO, that's a very good thing.

It also makes it harder for creatures to bypass you and reach your squishier party members. As a frontliner, you want enemies to focus on you instead of a wizard; having a large threat area with lots of damage on your AoOs discourage enemies from this.

Finally, Spiked Chain is the most popular weapon in 3.5e, and stacking more reach on top of that can ensure that even huge or gargantuan creatures have to eat an AoO to come close to attacking you.

[ericgrau]

@^ 90% already addressed. Also, please math, mock fight, otherwise test or link to a test, any new claims. Heck at this point I've seen so little evidence I might accept "One time 8 years ago I tested it out thoroughly but I lost what I wrote down". Also watch out in general for explaining super rare corner cases as "can happen", or in general expecting events to happen the way you want them to rather than taking an average.

[Felyndiira]

@^ 90% already addressed. Also, please math, mock fight, otherwise test or link to a test, any new claims. Heck at this point I've seen so little evidence I might accept "One time 8 years ago I tested it out thoroughly but I lost what I wrote down". Also watch out in general for explaining super rare corner cases as "can happen", or in general expecting events to happen the way you want them to rather than taking an average.

You've addressed none of what I brought up.

[King of Nowhere]

@^ 90% already addressed. Also, please math, mock fight, otherwise test or link to a test, any new claims. Heck at this point I've seen so little evidence I might accept "One time 8 years ago I tested it out thoroughly but I lost what I wrote down". Also watch out in general for explaining super rare corner cases as "can happen", or in general expecting events to happen the way you want them to rather than taking an average.

sorry, but i think the burden of proof is on you, because you are the one citing the super-rare corner cases.

Really, everything in my experience shows that AoO matters and reach matters. Want some mock fights?
One I was in. My monk with mage slayer was facing a cleric and a wizard, around level 9-10. without reach, i could charge, hit one of them, the other would take a step backwards and cast.
Instead, I drank a potion of enlarge and moved next to them. Neither could cast defensively, and neither could get out of my reach with a 5-foot step. Both casters were neutralized.
Another mock fight? Whenever I am trying to protect the wizard, I can do it much more effectively if I am enlarged. If I am not enlarged, people can charge at the wizards from the sides; I only cover a 90 degrees angle in front of me. While enlarged, I threaten two squares in front and at the sides of the wizard. People can only charge at the wizard from behind.
Yet another example? Everything I go against a large foe, if I am enlarged I don't have to eat an attack of opportunity.
Yet another? I trip people and force them to attack at -4 or to eat an AoO and lose an action to get up. Once I have them on the ground, I stay in the middle of them to keep them from getting up. It's much easier to stay in the middle of enemies and threaten them if you have reach.

So unless you are saying that facing two squishy foes (casters when you have mage slayer may be a corner case, but you certainly face archers more often), protecting a wizard from charging enemies, or going in melee against a large opponent, ALL of the above are very rare corner cases, then reach is very useful.
And if you argue that ALL of those are corner cases, then I wonder what kind of combats you regularly face. I mean, if all you fight are big monsters that will do nothing but stand still and attack whoever is closer, then ok, reach and AoO doesn't come much into play. When you face teams of humanoid enemies, though, it makes a large difference.

Btw, while anecdotes hardly prove much, I never did die for being enlarged, but I did die for not being enlarged. See, I was fighting this 19th level rogue who was hiding in magical darkness, and I was using listen to track him. I though i found him, and attacked the spot, counting on pierce magical concealment to avoid miss chances. However, I picked the wrong spot; the guy was 1.5 meters back. In his turn, he took a step forward, set his pet to flank, and full attacked me, hitting with 5 sneak attacks (it's not like a -2 penalty for being enlarged would have hurt me). If I had been enlarged, I could have attacked the tile from one tile back. That way, the rogue would have actually been 3 meters from me, and he wouldn't have been able to full attack me.

Really. The only reason I do not get a permanent enlarge or reach is that I would become too strong for my table.

P.S. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)'s a final example of how you use reach. Just make sure there are no ravines behind you.

P.P.S. Do you really think we are all morons, thinking reach is good because "oooh, shiny!" without ever getting the chance to make it count?

[Particle_Man]

Now I am curious about how often reduce person is used to counter enlarge person.

[ericgrau]

@ King of Nowere, 2 posts up:

Those are at least real game examples, and some good times to use enlarge. So good there for using actual examples. But if you are going to enlarge to charge in and deal some extra damage, it's usually not worth the casting time. That's what the math is for, and the reason to scroll or potion it rather than prepare it every day when those special situations don't come up most days. Permanent enlarge is also good because you avoid the casting time, and by the time you can get it you're in less danger. When people try to claim enlarge is a good spell to prepare daily without giving a good reason, for regular situations instead of special situations, that is what I am debunking. And yeah, people repeat random popular ideas they heard all the time. Even when there is a good reason they may try to use it in another situation where there isn't. That doesn't mean I'm calling everyone dumb. I am saying watch out for bad rumors and always check for the support.

(Edit for more explanation, didn't mean to ninja edit) Usually enlarge person is a horrible spell, that's what's key. Don't use it to charge in and deal damage against random foes. Math says that's a poor use of the casting time. It doesn't deserve the wide popularity enough to be on a daily list. Unless you have an ally built around it to provide the special circumstances daily. Or at a cheap level 1 price, it's a superb spell to scroll or potion for random special circumstances. Do use it for special circumstances.

[Eldariel]

@ King of Nowere, 2 posts up:

Those are at least real game examples, and some good times to use enlarge. So good there for using actual examples. But if you are going to enlarge to charge in and deal some extra damage, it's usually not worth the casting time. That's what the math is for, and the reason to scroll or potion it rather than prepare it every day when those special situations don't come up most days. Permanent enlarge is also good because you avoid the casting time, and by the time you can get it you're in less danger. When people try to claim enlarge is a good spell to prepare daily without giving a good reason, for regular situations instead of special situations, that is what I am debunking. And yeah, people repeat random popular ideas they heard all the time. Even when there is a good reason they may try to use it in another situation where there isn't. That doesn't mean I'm calling everyone dumb. I am saying watch out for bad rumors and always check for the support.

I dunno, every time I run a low level Wizard (last one was in Pathfinder Society) I do prepare it and rarely do I regret it. If I have no other applicable spells, it's a solid buff, and whenever fighting solo enemies or small groups, you can easily just have the group keep distance and buff up (or prebuff before boss battles; they're pretty well telegraphed most of the time), and force the enemy to either come to you eating a free AoO (which can easily be a trip and a gangbang on -4 AC) or die to arrows. And that's with Trip nerfed. 3.5 level 1 Barbarian with +15 to Trip from Enlarge, Improved Trip, Rage and 18 Str has a pretty solid shot to roll over friggin' CR5 Tendriculos. I actually tested with 2 Core Gray Elf Conjurers (with Grease, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person) + 2 Core Human Barbarians (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip) party vs. various CR5-6s straight from the Monster Manual and as long as terrain wasn't against them, the party was easily able to deal with the most of them between kiting (Barbarians with 40' movement speed do a particularly good job at it) and Enlarge + Ray of Enfeeblement. Dragons pasted them of course but aside from that, Arrowhawk was the only real problem.

[ericgrau]

@^ I did say you should use it with trip builds too, as its main use. Also I edited in a 2nd paragraph before realizing someone else had posted.

It depends, but most people shouldn't prepare it blindly. Like I said originally tripping or grappling allies is the best time to prepare it, probably daily. Or sometimes for other builds. Other circumstances are less common, and warrant a scroll or potion instead. On other random melee it's a Bad idea. It's still a slight gain, but you could do much better with your turn. You should always ask "What are your allies" before recommending it blindly.

[Gnaeus]

If you're very very lucky an enemy might approach 10' away from you and stop somehow without using a range weapon, causing you to waste his action Most likely he'll have a range weapon though, attack, and then approach within 10' while drawing his melee weapon for next turn. If you use reach all campaign maybe once or twice the entire campaign a tough enemy will eat your AoO on purpose because he can handle it and his extra melee damage is worth it. Yeah, almost no extra attack of opportunity ever. The only value is the threat of an AoO causing enemies to stop if you're blocking off a tight space and can't advance (perhaps the tight space ends).

Or having your familiar release a held bull's strength or protection from evil (on levels 1-4ish) right before you cast your round 1 spell. And yeah, the damage bonuses from these are nice at low-mid level too.

So, most likely, in your example, the enemy shoots you, moves to 10 feet from you, dropping their bow and drawing a sword for next turn.

Your response, if your melee has an Int over animal level, should be to full attack the badguy, then take a 5 foot step BACK. He is now 15 feet from you. His bow is on the ground behind him. And he now, again, gets the choice between eating your AOO as he approaches or dropping his sword, moving back and grabbing his range weapon. (And if he picks up his range weapon, you move next to him and attack. He can’t 5 foot step out of your reach, so he can move for an AOO, shoot for an AOO, or drop his bow again, spend a move action drawing his second best weapon and making a standard attack against you.) thank you for this informative example of how good reach is.

The familiar should be using a wand of enlarge person. Aside from the action economy benefit of full round cast spells off a familiar, unlike Bulls Strength or Protection from Evil, the enlarge has a non touch range, so he can cast it from 25 feet behind the front line

[ericgrau]

@^ "If you're very very lucky", describing a rare situation. It doesn't usually happen because enlarge needs to happen first and enemy attacking needs to happen 2nd. Otherwise you're delaying your turn and your attacks that way to force that order. Plus there are often multiple other enemies that acted at different times, both messing up the order and possibly making obstacles. If you're in a situation tight enough for it to matter, your allies are usually behind you too. You also can't usually move back each turn and also protect your allies, unless the turn order is extremely well coordinated. So the foe may hit them instead. You completely left them out. That's why it's important to look at how often situations come up instead of focusing only on 1 corner case. And then ask yourself if you should scroll the spell rather than eat a spell slot daily waiting for that day to come.

If you have a nice choke point >15' but <=30' then enlarge away and position yourself at the choke point rather than moving in. But not knowing the layout ahead of time, you probably should be doing that from a scroll rather than potentially wasting a spell slot. If it's a wide open area and you don't move in, you're probably just wasting your attacks as enemies look for other ways.

[Eldariel]

If you have a nice choke point >15' but <=30' then enlarge away and position yourself at the choke point rather than moving in. But not knowing the layout ahead of time, you probably should be doing that from a scroll rather than potentially wasting a spell slot. If it's a wide open area and you don't move in, you're probably just wasting your attacks as enemies look for other ways.

This depends on how strong your team is at range though. If you outpower the enemy at range, the enemy melee is forced to move in and eat up the AoO or die ignobly. Thus it's very much so a "know your party composition"-sort of deal, but low levels favour ranged combat as it's mostly a stat check at a stat most characters have an interest in and there are no meaningful damage bonuses anywhere so anyone can do it.

[inuyasha]

Also, don't forget that the damage increase isn't by one die size, but by one size category. Some people think that a 1d8-damage Longsword switches to a d10, but it actually switches to 2d6, and that's a pretty big difference. Now think of using enlarge person on someone with a Longspear! 15ft. reach, and that d10 damage increases to 2d8, plus the strength increase. Jumping from an average of 4.5 to 7, or from 5.5 to 9 is pretty nice.

[ericgrau]

The 1 round casting time is also something I nearly forgot. That means round 1 you either derp, or you go deep into melee and negate any reach benefits. And get 1 less round on the per round benefits. Your familiar can't hold the charge on the spell either because it's not a touch spell like protection from evil is. If you can get something with hands and a hugely pumped UMD he might do something, but by then you have better spells so this is pretty unlikely and shouldn't even be brought up. If you get an uncommon buff round then use a scroll for that. If you have a dedicated tripping ally then it might be worth the 1 round delay.

Again, math out the full damage for friend & foe or try a mock character or mock situation. Or at least campaign experiences. Some good examples being brought up but also some incomplete ones. In practice there are a lot of traps. In particular the damage per fight added to friend & foe isn't half as great as it seems at first glance.

[Particle_Man]

Are the PCs always being surprised? Or do they sometimes have time to prep before a likely or known combat?

[bean illus]

Enlarge is good because if its synergy. That's what we said. Or are we including having a Tripper or Grappler on your team as one of those rare situations you were speaking about?

Comparing it to magic missile? lol. Does mm last a minute/level?

Sure, scrolls and wands are fantastic for when the campaign has progressed to the point that you always have them.

I do have two questions though.

1. Can an enlarged person dismiss it at will, and how long does that take?
2. What would say, a ring of enlarge person cost? For those dedicated tripper builds?

[AlanBruce]

1. Can an enlarged person dismiss it at will, and how long does that take?


The spell carries the:


Duration:1 min./level (D)

That bolded letter says it is dismissable. As to my understanding, it can be dismissed by the caster who cast the spell- typically a wizard.

Dismissing a spell is a standard action. Some people rule that only the caster can dismiss the buff placed on a fellow PC. Others say that the fighter who is recipient to this buff can spend his standard action to dismiss the effect on themselves, but that last one may be a house rule.

[bean illus]

Fortitude negates? How long does that take?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's true but against Enlarge, having equal reach requires having someone with Enlarge too; Clerics (with the appropriate domains) and Wizards can of course do that to themselves but Warriors are stuck with 250gp pots (Enlarge Person pot is exceptionally expensive) if they don't have a buffer handy.

Couple things;

Since there's no note that suggests otherwise, an enlarge person pot should use the same pricing formula as all other pots. The rules do allow higher than normal CL pots and even list several in the table more clearly than enlarge person. At the listed price, the enlarge person pot should be at CL 5. Seems there was an explanation after all.

If you can't get a custom pot at CL 1 for 50 gp because the GM says the 250 pot is CL 1 (an absurd ruling, IMO) then there's always the direct (slightly vastly superior) psionic equivalent; a tattoo of expansion. At ML 3 it gives the same benefits as the pot, without the creature type restriction, for 30 minutes, at a cost of 150 gp. For 350, you can get your size increased by 2 categories for 7 rounds instead. As a psionic tattoo, it can also be enhanced with the special tattoos from this page. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a)

There's also the permanency option, though that's a tad risky.

Finally, as far from ideal as possible, there's the ring of expansion in Savage Species for 1/day enlargement, regardless of creature type, for 18k. I have no idea why this is so badly overpriced but it's a possible option of last resort that I'm including mostly to be thorough.

[King of Nowhere]

Those are at least real game examples, and some good times to use enlarge. So good there for using actual examples. But if you are going to enlarge to charge in and deal some extra damage, it's usually not worth the casting time.

Ah, ok, this clarifies your stance a bit. You are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that if you don't have a dedicated trip build, casting enlarge once the combat is already started is a suboptimal use of an action. Which I can agree on; as my former post summed up, the power of enlarge depends a lot on synergies.
I maintain, though, that if you do have time to buff before the fight, enlarge is still a good buff to use, because it's a mild damage boost that stacks with everything and that extra reach, while it may not be used every round if you aren't trying to do battlefield control, is still going to be useful even should you use it just once.
Any reasonably strong mid level wizard has at least 6 1st level slots anyway, I can't think of 6 other spells that are more generally useful.
I agree that if you don't have a build that can make use of enlarge, it is no better than any other buff, and worse than some. The fact that it stacks with others still make it useful even then.

[Covenant12]

Sure, scrolls and wands are fantastic for when the campaign has progressed to the point that you always have them.

I do have two questions though.

1. Can an enlarged person dismiss it at will, and how long does that take?
2. What would say, a ring of enlarge person cost? For those dedicated tripper builds?My anecdote:

DM'ing for old friends (decades of rpg's) and baby brother (none at all). So I help him make a barbarian. I sit down with him with a battle grid, and explain how reach works. He spends 25% of his wealth for a fully-charged wand of enlarge person and hands it to the wizard.

1. The caster can dismiss it as a standard action (D). If the recipient intentionally fails his saving throw(normal), he can't dismiss it.
2. DMG guidelines, disturbingly cheap. The guidelines that should almost never be used. Probably shouldn't base it as a 1st-level spell though, I'd compare to permanency on enlarge person cost. A 10th level beatstick really should be able to afford it.

And yes, when polymorph is readily available it might not be used. But "quite a bit worse than polymorph" is still a great spell.

[tomandtish]

I'm amazed we are this far along and nobody linked this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Some differences, but the basic concept is the same.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Something like bull's strength is way way better thanks to the +2 attack bonus and no AC penalty.
Sort of, you're forgetting about bonus type, though, and that's important. Bull's Strength is an Enhancement Bonus. All common strength enhancing items area ALSO enhancement bonuses and don't stack. Enlarge Person is a Size Bonus, which is used by virtually nothing else, meaning it stacks with pretty much everything. That can matter a lot, if you already have magic gear or are taking several rounds to buff before a fight. You are right that the AC penalty can be quite punishing sometimes, though.

[Warlawk]

Couple things;

Since there's no note that suggests otherwise, an enlarge person pot should use the same pricing formula as all other pots. The rules do allow higher than normal CL pots and even list several in the table more clearly than enlarge person. At the listed price, the enlarge person pot should be at CL 5.

If you can't get a custom pot at CL 1 for 50 gp because the GM says the 250 pot is CL 1 (an absurd ruling, IMO) then there's always the direct (slightly superior) psionic equivalent; a tattoo of expansion. At ML 3 it gives the same benefits as the pot, without the creature type restriction, for 30 minutes, at a cost of 150 gp. For 350, you can get your size increased by 2 categories for 7 rounds instead. As a psionic tattoo, it can also be enhanced with the special tattoos from this page. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a)

There's also the permanency option, though that's a tad risky.

Finally, as far from ideal as possible, there's the ring of expansion in Savage Species for 1/day enlargement, regardless of creature type, for 18k. I have no idea why this is so badly overpriced but it's a possible option of last resort that I'm including mostly to be thorough.

Actually, the 250g price for the enlarge potion is straight from the DMG/SRD. No reason why specifically, but it's more expensive. There are a few potions/scrolls that have different pricing.

Potion list for reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm)

[Fizban]

Actually, the 250g price for the enlarge potion is straight from the DMG/SRD. No reason why specifically, but it's more expensive. There are a few potions/scrolls that have different pricing.

Potion list for reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm)
The bonuses on the Shield of Faith and Barkskin and Greater Magic Weapon potions make it clear that those prices indicate increased caster levels. The wand table also includes a number at advanced caster levels, and even a Heightened Ray of Enfeeblement and Suggestion. They just couldn't be bothered to list the reasoning on Enlarge Person for some reason.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, the 250g price for the enlarge potion is straight from the DMG/SRD. No reason why specifically, but it's more expensive. There are a few potions/scrolls that have different pricing.

Potion list for reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm)

I'm aware. I won't speak to scrolls, though I think they follow the formulas pretty closely too, but the potions/oils that are off from standard pricing, like barkskin +3, match the formula exactly when you actually run the spell through it.

That there is no note at all is the only reason I can think of that an uncritical GM might rule it as a CL 1 instance of the spell, since potions are generally made at minimum CL.

[Eldariel]

One of the big things about the Potion is that using it is only a standard action, which can be a part of the reason. Both Rules Compendium and SRD agree on this, unlike with other magic item types.

[Kelb_Panthera]

One of the big things about the Potion is that using it is only a standard action, which can be a part of the reason. Both Rules Compendium and SRD agree on this, unlike with other magic item types.

Huh. Hadn't realized enlarge and reduce have 1 round casting times. I dropped them hard when I discovered the tattoos of expansion and compression. I suppose that -could- justify an ad-hoc price increase.

I need to make a small edit.

[Fizban]

One of the big things about the Potion is that using it is only a standard action, which can be a part of the reason. Both Rules Compendium and SRD agree on this, unlike with other magic item types.

Huh. Hadn't realized enlarge and reduce have 1 round casting times. I dropped them hard when I discovered the tattoos of expansion and compression. I suppose that -could- justify an ad-hoc price increase.

It's a definite advantage to the potion, but- Lesser Restoration has a 3 round casting time, and its potion is the standard 300gp. The psionic tattoos let you do personal spells at double cost while potions don't, but potions just don't care about casting time. Enlarge Person and Lesser Restoration are about the only spells that it even matters for, and duration is more than enough reason to have the default rolled potion be higher cl.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm amazed we are this far along and nobody linked this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Some differences, but the basic concept is the same.

Actually, I did. You failed your search check for it




P.S. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)'s a final example of how you use reach. Just make sure there are no ravines behind you.

[Eldariel]

The probable real reason is that 3.0 Enlarge had an Str-bonus only at higher caster levels, so they made the Potion at max CL and it just got left that way in the edition update.

[Fizban]

The probable real reason is that 3.0 Enlarge had an Str-bonus only at higher caster levels, so they made the Potion at max CL and it just got left that way in the edition update.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! The best part is that they did remake the tables to add all those other boosted cl potions, but managed to update Enlarge Person while simultaneously not updating it. Editing strikes again. They didn't catch it in the errata either.

[Gnaeus]

@^ "If you're very very lucky", describing a rare situation. It doesn't usually happen because enlarge needs to happen first and enemy attacking needs to happen 2nd. Otherwise you're delaying your turn and your attacks that way to force that order. Plus there are often multiple other enemies that acted at different times, both messing up the order and possibly making obstacles. If you're in a situation tight enough for it to matter, your allies are usually behind you too. You also can't usually move back each turn and also protect your allies, unless the turn order is extremely well coordinated. So the foe may hit them instead. You completely left them out. .

That isn’t a lucky corner case. That was your example. Describing what you called the most likely scenario of casting enlarge person.


If you're very very lucky an enemy might approach 10' away from you and stop somehow without using a range weapon, causing you to waste his action. Most likely he'll have a range weapon though, attack, and then approach within 10' while drawing his melee weapon for next turn.

So in your new example, your allies are behind you. And your foe wants to attack them not you. Which is exactly why you want to be in a 10’ square threatening either a 30’ or 50’ square. Because if you are threatening a 15’ square your enemies can go around and attack your squishies. Are you actually opposed to enlarge person? Because all your examples just prove how awesome it is.

[ericgrau]

That isn’t a lucky corner case. That was your example. Describing what you called the most likely scenario of casting enlarge person.



So in your new example, your allies are behind you. And your foe wants to attack them not you. Which is exactly why you want to be in a 10’ square threatening either a 30’ or 50’ square. Because if you are threatening a 15’ square your enemies can go around and attack your squishies. Are you actually opposed to enlarge person? Because all your examples just prove how awesome it is.

It said right in the original example at the beginning "if you're very very lucky". Usually you either approach the enemy and attack round 1, letting him 5' and return the attack, or you derp round 1 and waste a valuable early attack that way. You might exchange it for more later if you're lucky (all foes are melee, all allies are blocked, etc., etc.). And so usually you never get a single AoO.

If you're enlarged with a reach weapon and advance, foes will go around you to your allies and you're causing a movement delay. Which is really the best you can hope for, and it is valuable when you can pull it off. Getting an AoO is very rare. Unless a foe intentionally takes it because he knows he's tough enough to handle it.

If you hang back and enlarge with a reach weapon or a tight corridor, you provide some protection at the expense of your valuable first attack. So it's a tradeoff. If your enemies are all melee. Most at least have range as a backup, and so you're sacrificing your attack to maybe weaken theirs. Actually round 1 you're waiting for the casting time so they can close in and 5' next round anyway, unless you move away from your allies. So it's only partly effective without a potion to speed it up. Even then some foes might beat your initiative and close before you can potion. Also, I'm in the habit of staggering my position because tightly clustering and getting hit by a surprise area attack will instantly wreck the party. The rest of the fight gets way harder. It's so terrible that I'll stay apart just in case, even if I can't tell where the area attack may or may not come from, even if I can't see any possible source at all.

So yeah, basically you're bringing up special cases that are not the norm. For those carry a potion or scroll. Potion preferably because it's faster. Or if an ally is a tripper or grappler it might be worth it to prepare daily. For straight damage you also increase enemy damage by about half as much, and for the action there are better things you could do. For reach, that's really hard to pull off even with a dedicated ally with a reach weapon. It's better if he carries potions rather than having the mage do it. And observe the situation carefully lest the party get area attacked, though that's usually guesswork & luck.

Side topic: Do most of you run enlarge person potions as 250 gp per the SRD/DMG, or do you assume that's a 3.0 holdover and change it to 50 gp?

[King of Nowhere]

stuff
All that scenario hinges on the idea that your party does not have time to buff before the fight. in which case you argue it's not the best use for an action, but what the hell, is there ANY buff spell that's worth an action once the fight has started? (maybe prayer if there are enough combatants)

While you can't always surprise your enemies, the reverse is also true. So you can expect to be able to prepare at least 50% of times (a bit more, cause sometimes both you and your opponent know of the other in advance and can prepare). And in those times, you can cast enlarge person along with all other buffs. Getting to prepare before the fight is NOT a special case.

And by the time you're level 10, you can cast it extended, and keep it for several fights.

Also, your scenario assumes that the enemy melee stands still and whacks your party fighter. which is all well and good, you don't get aoo. But the enemy melee may acctually want to go around you and harrass your squishies, and having reach to stop that (or at least make it costly) is already a success. A success that cannot really be quantified in your mathematical model, because how much can you value "the enemy remains in melee instead of harrassing the casters"?
Though in my other table, where I DM, the melees always go harrass the casters when possible, so preventing that is a fairly good gain. Maybe your DM handles fights differently.

Also, trip builds are far from rare. At mid-high and higher optimization, it's either that or ubercharger.

So let's see what must happen for enlarge to not be worth casting

IF your party doesn't have a tripper, AND
IF your party doesn't get the chance to buff before the fight, AND
IF the enemy melees prefer to focus the meatshield rather than harrass the casters, AND
IF the enemy doesn't have reach himself to take advantage of your shorter reach, AND
IF the enemy does not try to disengage or run away or any kind of repositioning, AND
IF the enemy does not have casters that may want to cast touch spells on their melees, THEN
reach is not useful

Seems a corner case to me, though

[Feantar]

To give a Raw answer to your question, Consecrate spell.

[ericgrau]

All that scenario hinges on the idea that your party does not have time to buff before the fight. in which case you argue it's not the best use for an action, but what the hell, is there ANY buff spell that's worth an action once the fight has started? (maybe prayer if there are enough combatants)
Yet another reason to scroll it rather than prepare it: For buff rounds. You usually don't get them so it's not worth preparing, but it's nice to have a scroll for when you do. I would rather cast other spells like protection from evil at fragile low levels instead of enlarge person. Unless you have a tripper/grappler/etc., then enlarge person all the way. Higher level buffs at higher level.

Also your familiar can hold touch spells, but enlarge person isn't a touch spell. In your theoretical buff round he'd PfE someone, then you'd immediately scroll PfE someone else. But what if you only have 1 major front liner? Maybe it's worth it to PfE a back liner just in case, but it's more worth it to tag someone with something they'll use more. Hmm, I'm not seeing much in core (for front or back line), and I'm too lazy to check splats at the moment. Ok, scroll enlarge person the front liner too.

Btw reach is usually not useful because usually you close to the enemy round 1 to attack, because you'd rather do that than derp. Regardless of enemy type. So all those examples are down the drain. And even if you manage a way around the long casting time, there's beating the initiative of multiple foes too. Simple. Citing a bunch of corner cases, half false (for example, reach for reason given) and half very low %, still adds up to low %. Just save a scroll for them.

[Particle_Man]

All that scenario hinges on the idea that your party does not have time to buff before the fight. in which case you argue it's not the best use for an action, but what the hell, is there ANY buff spell that's worth an action once the fight has started? (maybe prayer if there are enough combatants)

While you can't always surprise your enemies, the reverse is also true. So you can expect to be able to prepare at least 50% of times (a bit more, cause sometimes both you and your opponent know of the other in advance and can prepare). And in those times, you can cast enlarge person along with all other buffs. Getting to prepare before the fight is NOT a special case.

And by the time you're level 10, you can cast it extended, and keep it for several fights.


Yet another reason to scroll it rather than prepare it: For buff rounds. You usually don't get them so it's not worth preparing, but it's nice to have a scroll for when you do. I would rather cast other spells like protection from evil at fragile low levels instead of enlarge person Unless you have a tripper/grappler/etc., then enlarge person all the way. Higher level buffs at higher level.

You two are playing at different tables with different DMs using different gaming styles. It is therefore impossible for you to settle whether "enlarge person" is useful or not. It is useful for King of Nowere's table (and other tables like that) and not as useful for ericgrau's table (and other tables like that). There is no Platonic Perfect Ideal DM's table, so we cannot settle this objectively. The fact that more people on this board favour enlarge person than not in their games does indicate that more tables of forumites are like King of Nowere's table than like ericgrau's table.

[Elkad]

In an indoor setting the lack of a buff round matters a lot less, because you can often blitz through two or more rooms while the spell is running.
And since it's ranged, the fighter can move to attack immediately (within Close limits of course) while the Wizard casts, and still get the benefit on round 2.

20' of reach is exceptional at low levels, when it is rare for the enemy to even have 10'

In an outdoor setting, it may not be a problem either. Encounter distances are longer, so you have closing time to act as a pseudo-buff round. Fighter moves 20-30' and fires his bow before the Enlarge hits.

As soon as you can afford the 300g for 30minute Expansion Tattoos, you probably want to switch to those for your multi-fight needs.

[King of Nowhere]

You two are playing at different tables with different DMs using different gaming styles.

Probably not so much. After all, I go through most of my fights without being enlarged, despite having a tripping build; It's rare that we get several rounds to buff before a fight. I think it's more that we are seeing the same coin from opposite sides.

Still, I'd have one final question for ericgrau addressing his "it's situational so it's not worth preparing": what exactly are you preparing in your first and second level slots when you are mid level?

Because while days end with enlarge person still unused, I can't think of many other more useful 1st spells that one may want to prepare.
Mage armor? There's greater mage armor at 3rd level.
shield? grab a mithril buckler and you have the benefit on all the time. it also has short duration
true strike? quickened is good for touch attacks, but otherwise it's not worth an action
magic missile? sure, it's reliable, but if you set out nuking you have much better spells
sleep, fear? the HD cap makes those useless past a certain level
maybe you'll want grease, though in my party we didn't have a chance to use it in ages - the wizard always had something more useful to do with his actions. Or some identification/detection spell. But you have 6 to 8 1st level spells, I doubt youu are going to need all of them.

[Quertus]

You two are playing at different tables with different DMs using different gaming styles. It is therefore impossible for you to settle whether "enlarge person" is useful or not. It is useful for King of Nowere's table (and other tables like that) and not as useful for ericgrau's table (and other tables like that). There is no Platonic Perfect Ideal DM's table, so we cannot settle this objectively. The fact that more people on this board favour enlarge person than not in their games does indicate that more tables of forumites are like King of Nowere's table than like ericgrau's table.

Despite the lack of universal unqualified acceptance of your conclusion, I gotta say, that was both very reasonable and very well put. Kudos!


what exactly are you preparing in your first and second level slots when you are mid level?

Now I'm not who you were addressing, and I note that all is your examples were from core, so apologies if I missed a "core only" tag, but... Kauper's Skittish Nerves?

[bean illus]

Now I'm not who you were addressing, and I note that all is your examples were from core, so apologies if I missed a "core only" tag, but... Kauper's Skittish Nerves?

Got 6 more slots for the attentive listener?

The bar for Enlarge Person is set by the OP as "good". Not best, not great. As a 1st level spell, that sets the bar pretty low.

EP has as much combat use to more players, for more levels, in more situations, than nearly any other 1st level spell. Sure, there are a few that are nice, but the vast majority of 1st level spells lose much of their combat utility fairly quickly.

For Eric's premise that enlarge person isn't a good spell to be true, we are asked to allow several assumptions. Among them; Scrolls don't count, potions don't count, buffing doesn't happen, Trippers and Grapplers are rare (with only slight mention to bull rush or disarm), Trippers don't take combat reflexes or have dexterities above 12, Fighters are short on feats, and reach is a waste of your resources.

Though I'm most familiar with playing levels 1 to 12, at relatively unoptimized tables, I've always been able to find a use for enlarge person. Maybe I just had nice DMs?

[SLOTHRPG95]

By bumping your damage by as much as 5.5 points per hit at low levels, it can sometimes be the difference between one-shotting a big bruiser, or having to take two rounds to kill it. I know someone brought up overkill, but if you're a low- to mid-OP martial at, say, 4th level or below I don't think you're worrying that the greater damage output is just going to be wasted on an Ogre or a Dire Ape.

[tomandtish]

Actually, I did. You failed your search check for it

Yep. Missed that entirely.