Oath of Conquest PAM build- to dip or not to dip?

[Benny89]

So I am thinking about creating an Oath of Conquest PAM Paladin.

Obviously Vuman.

Lvl 1- PAM, lvl 4- +2 CHA, Lvl 8 RES (CON) or War Caster, Lvl 12 + 2 CHA

Style: Dueling, using Spear + Shield.

Reason I want PAM is when there are enemies immune to my fear I can have greater DPR/Nova with 3 attacks and Smites vs 2 attacks.

However, I wonder if it's worth to dip Hexblade in here. Reason why is: vs BBEG that has legendary resistance or is straight immune to fear- Curse is nice bonus to damage stacking with Dueling, PAM and later Rebuke. Otherwise I would try to Wraithful Smite it. I also get CHA SAD, Booming Blade (then I take War Caster), Shield and EB.

So, while I do not get Capstone, I kind of mimick that capstone much early:

1. Resistance to all damage- I don't have but +5 AC to Shield is still strong through whole game.
2. Extra attack- PAM gives me that.
3. 19-20 crits- Curse gives me that if needed.

It's NOT THE SAME, but building for level 20 was never smart in my opinion.

Anyway. What do you think- should I dip Hexblade or not for Conquest? Should I maybe even dip more?

And last question- what is your experience with Conquest Paladin vs other Oaths. Good, bad? I am afraid a little bit of fear immunity from many enemies to be honest. Conquest seems kind of one-trick pony.

[Perlywhirly]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest

Enjoy, my friend. Conquest is a unique form of tanking and highly synergistic within itself, something a lot of other styles lack. Welcome to the crusade.

[Sception]

In general, a single level hexblade dip is worth it for conquerors. There are a few levels where the delay is painful enough that you might wish you hadn't, particularly levels 5, 6, 7(!), 9(!), 18, and 20. Every other conqueror level has good stuff, but not so good that the tradeoff for that single hexblade level feels actually painful.

Re PAM, while a very strong feat, access to spiritual weapon makes it less impressive for conquerors than most other paladins since you'll already have access to a bonus action attack option starting at level 5. It's still not a bad feat by any stretch, but you might get more mileage out of sentinel, inspiring leader, or resilient constitution.

[Benny89]

In general, a single level hexblade dip is worth it for conquerors. There are a few levels where the delay is painful enough that you might wish you hadn't, particularly levels 5, 6, 7(!), 9(!), 18, and 20. Every other conqueror level has good stuff, but not so good that the tradeoff for that single hexblade level feels actually painful.

Re PAM, while a very strong feat, access to spiritual weapon makes it less impressive for conquerors than most other paladins since you'll already have access to a bonus action attack option starting at level 5. It's still not a bad feat by any stretch, but you might get more mileage out of sentinel, inspiring leader, or resilient constitution.

Thing is with PAM: it doesn't cost spell slot, which can go to better use. It also can cause Divine Smite. And third- it helps when enemy is immune to fear, because they you have 3 attacks with Smites attached, which makes your Nova and DPR much better. Also PAM benefits from Rebuke heavly on 15 level. Conquest has a lot of control but it's DPR is not that impressive vs Vengeance or GWM Devotion so I think little boost to damage will serve him well.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Thing is with PAM: it doesn't cost spell slot, which can go to better use. It also can cause Divine Smite. And third- it helps when enemy is immune to fear, because they you have 3 attacks with Smites attached, which makes your Nova and DPR much better. Also PAM benefits from Rebuke heavly on 15 level. Conquest has a lot of control but it's DPR is not that impressive vs Vengeance or GWM Devotion so I think little boost to damage will serve him well.

That level dip in Hexblade will also give you the Hex spell. It applies to both your attacks and the Spiritual Weapon, for those BBG fights.

Also, consider how many spell slots you get. Are you really gonna blow through 3 spells slots per round in combat (tier 2)? That's great if your DM is only doing 1 combat per long rest. But it's completely unsustainable if you're doing anything more. Consider some concentration spell buffs to extend your useful combat rounds, especially ones that work with your Spiritual Weapon.

[Sception]

Thing is with PAM: it doesn't cost spell slot, which can go to better use. It also can cause Divine Smite. And third- it helps when enemy is immune to fear, because they you have 3 attacks with Smites attached, which makes your Nova and DPR much better. Also PAM benefits from Rebuke heavly on 15 level. Conquest has a lot of control but it's DPR is not that impressive vs Vengeance or GWM Devotion so I think little boost to damage will serve him well.

By mid levels you have two attacks per round base, if you want to smite you'll have hits to do it with. Yeah, you could smite an extra time with PAM, but three slots in a round is burning through spells a lot faster than one per encounter. Smites aren't exactly what the build is about regardless.

PAM does help against fearless foes - though against such enemies you aren't casting your usual spells so you're more free to cast spiritual weapon if you need more damage. PAM does get you that damage without a slot, or even more damage smiting with one, but again damage is a secondary role for this build, not the primary one. Sentinel /also/ helps against fearless foes, only instead of some extra damage when you already have plenty of options to pile on more damage when needed (especially if you dip hexblade), sentinel instead gives you a backup stickiness option to help maintain your primary tanking role when your aura isn't working.

Of course, PAM *and* sentinel make for a very synergistic combination, but this build is pretty feat starved and that's probably going overboard on backup options instead of advancing your primary tools. IMO it's a combo better left to fighters with their bonus feats and otherwise limited stickiness tools.

And there are other options as well. Inspiring Leader is an extremely good feat for this build, resilient con is something you probably want regardless (though if you're dipping hexblade warcaster might be a better choice), heavy armor master is probably the strongest vuman feat available if your game, like most, won't run much past 10th level, etc.

Again, PAM is *very* good. If it's what you want, so be it. It certainly helps justify a spear/shield combo, which is cool on a purely aesthetic level. It's just that, like Great Weapon Master, it's a feat that loses a bit on this build compared to others. If you still want it, it's still good, but it's not an automatic choice. It's worth considering all your options before settling.

If you have done that already then you're fine, I don't think PAM is a *wrong* choice.

[Benny89]

That level dip in Hexblade will also give you the Hex spell. It applies to both your attacks and the Spiritual Weapon, for those BBG fights.

Also, consider how many spell slots you get. Are you really gonna blow through 3 spells slots per round in combat (tier 2)? That's great if your DM is only doing 1 combat per long rest. But it's completely unsustainable if you're doing anything more. Consider some concentration spell buffs to extend your useful combat rounds, especially ones that work with your Spiritual Weapon.

Spiritual weapon is good but PAM benfits not only from Smite, but from Dueling, Curse and Rebuke + IDS. And it's free. The only bonus action I will use is Wrathful Smite vs one strong enemy, but once I lock him with fear - it's 3 attacks per turn. Even at 5th level it's 1k8 + 4 (18 CHA) vs 1k4 + 6 (CHA + Dueling) + potential Smite. While Spiritual weapon can crit, it can't abuse that crit with Smite. Also on low levels I usually run with Divine Favour on so that is 2k4 + 6 + possible Smite, which is better than Spiritual Weapon even more. And later when you get Curse, Rebuke and IDS it scales more and more. And it's always "on".

PAM is stronger on some other builds, I agree but it's always strong anyway. Especially since you can use it with Shield. And that spiritual weapon slot can be used on Hold Person, Smite or Magic Weapon. It also kind of waste to cast it from 4th or 5th slot as you have much more potent spells then and for example it's better to use 4th level or 5th level slot for Armor of Agathys or Holy Weapon etc. than Spiritual Weapon.

Not to mention that PAM gives you OA when enemies enter your range which can be combo with Booming Blade. Great for enemies that succeed on save and want to get to you.

[Snowbluff]

I would say the most important breakpoints for a paladin are 6, 7 and 11. After 11 I feel a lot less bad about dipping out, so I would certainly encourage it.

Furthermore, hexblade also can give you the shield spell, which can be a handy defense boost. Normally, it's quite bad for a hexblade, but with standard spell slots it's worth a lot more.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Spiritual weapon is good but PAM benfits not only from Smite, but from Dueling, Curse and Rebuke + IDS. And it's free. The only bonus action I will use is Wrathful Smite vs one strong enemy, but once I lock him with fear - it's 3 attacks per turn. Even at 5th level it's 1k8 + 4 (18 CHA) vs 1k4 + 6 (CHA + Dueling) + potential Smite. While Spiritual weapon can crit, it can't abuse that crit with Smite. Also on low levels I usually run with Divine Favour on so that is 2k4 + 6 + possible Smite, which is better than Spiritual Weapon even more. And later when you get Curse, Rebuke and IDS it scales more and more. And it's always "on".

PAM is stronger on some other builds, I agree but it's always strong anyway. Especially since you can use it with Shield. And that spiritual weapon slot can be used on Hold Person, Smite or Magic Weapon. It also kind of waste to cast it from 4th or 5th slot as you have much more potent spells then and for example it's better to use 4th level or 5th level slot for Armor of Agathys or Holy Weapon etc. than Spiritual Weapon.

Not to mention that PAM gives you OA when enemies enter your range which can be combo with Booming Blade. Great for enemies that succeed on save and want to get to you.

I see your point about PAM. Last time I built a paladin character, PAM wasn't available on the spear (and getting to 11th level is pretty iffy with my group), so it wasn't as good back then.

[Gydian]

How dare you muddle your Paladin purity with Warlock filth. That contract with another being will force you to worship two masters. You dare belittle your great Paladin oaths by swearing to some substandard Patron? For shame. For Shame!


In all seriousness its a decent idea as long as you don't plan on going to level 20 and having capstone regrets.