Waterdeep: Are Goblins, Kenkus, Drows, etc. considered citizens?

[Merudo]

I'm aware that the Waterdeep legal code provides protections to Waterdeep citizens. For example, robbing or attacking a citizen is illegal and is punishable by law. This is simple enough to understand when dealing with traditionally good races (humans/dwarves/elves/gnomes/etc)

However, what happens if I met some traditionally evil / unlawful races (Goblins, Kenkus, Kobolds, Drows, Bugbears, etc) while in Waterdeep? Is there any chance these typically evil creatures are citizens and thus protected by the law? Or are they considered enemies/spies?

If such races are automatically considered persona non grata of Waterdeep, then good people such as Drizzt would not be welcomed there. It was also make it extremely hard for PCs of these hated races to take part in Waterdeep adventures.

If individuals are judged on a creature by creature basis, a case could be made that even dangerous abominations such as Beholders and Mind Flayers should not be attacked on sight in Waterdeep as they could potentially be law-abiding citizens and thus under the protection of the Watch.

Keep in mind that during the adventure Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, the PCs can meet NPCs from all of the previously mentioned races. It would be nice to know if the PCs can just kill them on sight or if due process is needed to respect the laws of the city.

[Millstone85]

If such races are automatically considered persona non grata of Waterdeep, then good people such as Drizzt would not be welcomed there.Drizzt would probably be welcome on account of being Drizzt. His reputation would make him an exception to whatever negative stance the city has on drow. Like in Baldur's Gate 2, where Keldorn hates drow yet is a big fan of Drizzt.

And yes, let's remember that drow society has been crafted from A to Z by a literal demon. Completely legitimate profiling there.

But I don't know my Waterdeep, so maybe drow are fine.

[Unoriginal]

I'm aware that the Waterdeep legal code provides protections to Waterdeep citizens. For example, robbing or attacking a citizen is illegal and is punishable by law. This is simple enough to understand when dealing with traditionally good races (humans/dwarves/elves/gnomes/etc)

However, what happens if I met some traditionally evil / unlawful races (Goblins, Kenkus, Kobolds, Drows, Bugbears, etc) while in Waterdeep? Is there any chance these typically evil creatures are citizens and thus protected by the law? Or are they considered enemies/spies?

If such races are automatically considered persona non grata of Waterdeep, then good people such as Drizzt would not be welcomed there. It was also make it extremely hard for PCs of these hated races to take part in Waterdeep adventures.

If individuals are judged on a creature by creature basis, a case could be made that even dangerous abominations such as Beholders and Mind Flayers should not be attacked on sight in Waterdeep as they could potentially be law-abiding citizens and thus under the protection of the Watch.

Keep in mind that during the adventure Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, the PCs can meet NPCs from all of the previously mentioned races. It would be nice to know if the PCs can just kill them on sight or if due process is needed to respect the laws of the city.

As long as you pay the taxes, you're a citizen.

Most of the Xanathar's goons don't pay taxes, for obvious reasons, but there is nothing stopping a Bugbear from opening a shop in the city and be treated like everyone else.

Dragon Heist and Volo's description of the city make clear that the city is very cosmopolite, and people like the goblinoids or the kobolds are perfectly capable of being law-abiding citizens. Keep in mind that in Faerun, human settlements do trading with goblin ones and hiring kobolds isn't out of the ordinary, just as an example.

Beholders and Mind Flayers would probably get the Watch called on sight, though, because unlike goblins who are "a people that sometime raids the other humanoid peoples", Beholders and Illithids are much more alien in appearance and mindset, and those who know what they are know they prey on humanoids to turn them into slaves and food.

It's not impossible for a renegade Illithid to become a citizen, but it'd probably require an audience with Silverhand in person to approve of it.

Note that it doesn't stop individuals to be suspicious or species-ist toward those beings. An elf might hate the orc fisherman they see every morning just because he's an orc, even though the worst thing he does it sometime brawl in a tavern. And the apothecary at Trollskull Alley would probably not be thrilled if their new neighbor turns out to be a drow.


In the Dragon Heist I run, I decided to have an Ogre in the Watch. Because it's fun.

[Zhorn]

I would imagine there would be a fair amount of turning blind eyes by the guards for when dealing with actions taken against certain monster races, and similarly restrictions against said monstrous races would be far harsher in the higher quarters of the city.
A goblin brutalized and left in an alleyway is probably going to be seen as vermin that got what was coming to them, but a goblin carrying guild membership papers or wearing a guild's crest on their uniform would probably be treated as a crime against the guild rather than against a citizen.
Drow are a slightly different situation. Being elves they'd count more as people than monsters, and it is not unheard of for drow to operate on the surface without ties back to the underdark. but it would still be uncommon to the point of not being entirely trusted without being attached to such a prominent reputation (such as with Drizzt). Think being treated with a constant level of mistrust and suspicion.

[Unoriginal]

I would imagine there would be a fair amount of turning blind eyes by the guards for when dealing with actions taken against certain monster races, and similarly restrictions against said monstrous races would be far harsher in the higher quarters of the city.
A goblin brutalized and left in an alleyway is probably going to be seen as vermin that got what was coming to them, but a goblin carrying guild membership papers or wearing a guild's crest on their uniform would probably be treated as a crime against the guild rather than against a citizen.
Drow are a slightly different situation. Being elves they'd count more as people than monsters, and it is not unheard of for drow to operate on the surface without ties back to the underdark. but it would still be uncommon to the point of not being entirely trusted without being attached to such a prominent reputation (such as with Drizzt). Think being treated with a constant level of mistrust and suspicion.

Goblins have a far better reputation than drow, though. Drow being elves is not a qualifier to have the general population treating them better.

[SpanielBear]

Like a lot of places, what’ll matter most is probably how well known you are. Whether your neighbours see you as a local.

“Goblin? Oh you mean Sketch? Well he’s a mate, right? Grew up together we did. His mam used to let us sneak booze from the family applejack barrel. Top bloke.”

In comparison, a stranger even from a “lawful” race is going to get rumours started about him.

“You know what they’re saying about that dwarf who turned up the other day? I heard no-ones seen him leave his house during the day. And you know what they say about dwarfs and gold right? I’m just saying, no smoke without a fire!”

Tl:dr people are scared by the unfamiliar and can be really petty.

[Zhorn]

Goblins have a far better reputation than drow, though. Drow being elves is not a qualifier to have the general population treating them better.

Fair enough. Our perceptions of these races mostly come down to the content we've been exposed to, and I don't doubt you've most probably been exposed to far more Forgotten Realms lore than I have.
Most of my experiences have gone under the rule of:

Put a bunch of goblins in the wild and they will gravitate towards wicked and malicious tendencies.
Take a bunch of drow out of their underdark societies and their views on surface dwellers softens and they don't see them as the enemies they were raised to believe the surface dwellers were.
Goblins are naturally drawn to worshiping evil gods like Maglubiyet.
Drow worship Lolth through domination and fear.

[Unoriginal]

Fair enough. Our perceptions of these races mostly come down to the content we've been exposed to, and I don't doubt you've most probably been exposed to far more Forgotten Realms lore than I have.
Most of my experiences have gone under the rule of:

Put a bunch of goblins in the wild and they will gravitate towards wicked and malicious tendencies.
Take a bunch of drow out of their underdark societies and their views on surface dwellers softens and they don't see them as the enemies they were raised to believe the surface dwellers were.
Goblins are naturally drawn to worshiping evil gods like Maglubiyet.
Drow worship Lolth through domination and fear.


Well in 5e lore gobins were forced to worship Maglubiyet through domination and fear (as he slaughtered their pantheon and took over the goblin worship), while Lolth was chosen by the primordial drows. Nowadays both group worship their malevolent deity because otherwise they get culled by the religious caste.

As for having malicious tendencies, the drow have just have much of those as the goblinoids. In both case, though, most of the wickedness is cultural and a result of their upbringing.

[sophontteks]

I thought waterdeep had a very specific procedure one must undertake to become a citizen, or even enter the city. One where they sign off on paperwork, pay a fee, and receive proper documentation validating them as citizens. If they are citizens, they are protected by law. If you kill them, you will face the consequences.

Waterdeep isn't the hollywood wild west. Its a civilized and structured city. They have authorities who are there to uphold the law. If you go about taking the law into your own hands by killing things on sight you'll likely find yourself behind bars.

[Chronos]

I would be extremely surprised if Xanathar weren't a citizen. The whole point of being a crime boss is that you, personally, keep your hands clean (or at least, don't get caught not keeping your hands clean). If Xanathar weren't under the protection of the law, he'd be hunted down and killed in very short order.

[Unoriginal]

I would be extremely surprised if Xanathar weren't a citizen. The whole point of being a crime boss is that you, personally, keep your hands clean (or at least, don't get caught not keeping your hands clean). If Xanathar weren't under the protection of the law, he'd be hunted down and killed in very short order.

The Xanathar is not a citizen, and it IS being hunted down by every legal authority of the city. It's just that good at avoiding legal authorities.

The Xanathar is the leader of Skullport, the rogue town under Waterdeep. The Xanathar's Guild isn't the "integrated and respected members of the community" kind of mobsters, they're an old-fashioned thieves', smugglers', kidnappers' and slavers' organization that happens to use Waterdeep. The Zentharim network is the "crime boss keep their hands clean" kind of mobsters.


The Xanathar has many servants who are Waterdeep citizens, though, because they are useful tools and are protected by Waterdavian law.

Even if it tried to be a Waterdeep citizen, being the leader of an illegal Guild would disqualify the beholder instantly.

[Corsair14]

Odd how things change. Old rules, the dark races used Skullport to handle business with Waterdeep. Drow were unheard of except as bedtime stories to scare children(aside from normal elves and dwarves who knew about them, and scholars and maybe some of the guard). The various greenskin races were nothing more than barbaric raiders who were KOS by the city guard and road patrols thus why they used Skullport for "legitimate" business. I always took cosmopolitan to mean elves, dwarves and the various common demi-humans were welcome and commonly seen unlike in other civilized cities were they each had their districts and kept to themselves.

[LibraryOgre]

Dragon Heist and Volo's description of the city make clear that the city is very cosmopolite

I don't know if it's a typo, neologism, or language issue, but I love the word "cosmopolite". It so wonderfully combines the concept of cosmopolitan and polite into a single utterance.

Ad res, the grognard in me says that they are not, but I also recognize that later games have become a lot more cosmopolite towards humanoids. I did run a game, back in 3.0 days, where the Hobgoblin Imperium of Neverwinter Woods (that the players had decided to ignore) sent aid to Waterdeep after an earthquake rocked the city and cracked Undermountain.

[Unoriginal]

I don't know if it's a typo, neologism, or language issue, but I love the word "cosmopolite". It so wonderfully combines the concept of cosmopolitan and polite into a single utterance.

It's the French word for "cosmopolitan". I forgot English used a different term.

[Merudo]

Waterdeep isn't the hollywood wild west. Its a civilized and structured city. They have authorities who are there to uphold the law. If you go about taking the law into your own hands by killing things on sight you'll likely find yourself behind bars.

It's fine and dandy if the Orc/Drow/Ogre/etc is a shopkeeper or enrolled in the Watch or something similarly respectable, but what if they are involved in something sketchy?

Maybe some concrete examples would help?

In the first chapter of Dragon Heist, there is a small gang of Kenkus that are hiding in a warehouse owned by the Zhentarim. If the PCs suspect said Kenkus are holding someone captive there, are they legally justified in entered said warehouse uninvited and killing the Kenkus?

Similarly, at some points the PCs will likely chase Xanathar operatives through the sewers. The PCs may end up finding two sleeping goblins there. Is it okay to slaughter them?

This question would especially matter to lawful PCs, for example lawful Paladins / Clerics worshiping deities such as Tyr or Helm.

[JackPhoenix]

It's fine and dandy if the Orc/Drow/Ogre/etc is a shopkeeper or enrolled in the Watch or something similarly respectable, but what if they are involved in something sketchy?

Maybe some concrete examples would help?

In the first chapter of Dragon Heist, there is a small gang of Kenkus that are hiding in a warehouse owned by the Zhentarim. If the PCs suspect said Kenkus are holding someone captive there, are they legally justified in entered said warehouse uninvited and killing the Kenkus?

Similarly, at some points the PCs will likely chase Xanathar operatives through the sewers. The PCs may end up finding two sleeping goblins there. Is it okay to slaughter them?

This question would especially matter to lawful PCs, for example lawful Paladins / Clerics worshiping deities such as Tyr or Helm.

The only crime is getting caught.

[Mjolnirbear]

It's the French word for "cosmopolitan". I forgot English used a different term.

LOL I speak French as a second language and have never heard the word. TIL. I'd have done un anglicisme and said 'cosmopolitain(e)'.

[Malifice]

It's fine and dandy if the Orc/Drow/Ogre/etc is a shopkeeper or enrolled in the Watch or something similarly respectable, but what if they are involved in something sketchy?.

Its no different to an Elf, Dwarf or Halfling citizen doing something sketchy.

Other than the higher levels or prejudice those races (Orcs, Drow, Ogres etc) would expect. They would suffer from higher imprisonment rates, longer relative sentences for offences, lower lifespan, lesser average income, poorer health outcomes etc.

People would treat them with disdain and they'd suffer from high levels of racism. They could generally expect worse outcomes (you'd expect and slums to be full of the races that suffer from the highest levels of prejudice, such as Orcs, Goblins and so forth).

The prejudice contributes to keeping them in the slums, entrenching the above social disadvantage.

You might even see some of the more enlightened faiths preaching things like affirmitive action, welfare and community outreach to those disadvantaged races in the city (Elistraee has a presence in Waterdeep, and she would be all for that).

[Unoriginal]

Waterdavian law doesn't even let you pull your weapon out without due cause. It's not letting you slaughter people just because it looks like they're doing something sketchy.

Thankfullly, the Kenkus in the warehouse solve this for you by trying to kill you first, and by the time you reach the sleeping goblins it's clear they're from the Xanathar's Guild.

[MeeposFire]

I would be extremely surprised if Xanathar weren't a citizen. The whole point of being a crime boss is that you, personally, keep your hands clean (or at least, don't get caught not keeping your hands clean). If Xanathar weren't under the protection of the law, he'd be hunted down and killed in very short order.


Jokes on you Xanathar doesn't have hands!

(boo hiss bad jokes abound)

[Malifice]

In the first chapter of Dragon Heist, there is a small gang of Kenkus that are hiding in a warehouse owned by the Zhentarim. If the PCs suspect said Kenkus are holding someone captive there, are they legally justified in entered said warehouse uninvited and killing the Kenkus?

Its almost certainly a crime for the PCs to enter the warehouse in the first place.

What authority do they have to enter a warehouse lawfully owned by the Zhentarim, without the Zentarims permission?

Like; are they trying to rescue someone in there, or do they have a patron who can get the watch to turn a blind eye or something, or do the PCs have some form of legal authority to enter the warehouse?


Similarly, at some points the PCs will likely chase Xanathar operatives through the sewers. The PCs may end up finding two sleeping goblins there. Is it okay to slaughter them?


Again, it's likely a crime to go into the sewers without permission/ authority of the City council.

What authority do they have to be there?

And even if they have that authority, it's certain that killing sleeping goblins is a crime (and an act of evil). Specifically: Murder.

Of course, whose going to find out/ prosecute them? It's certainly not something that a Good aligned PC would do in any event.

[Unoriginal]

Its almost certainly a crime for the PCs to enter the warehouse in the first place.

What authority do they have to enter a warehouse lawfully owned by the Zhentarim, without the Zentarims permission?

Like; are they trying to rescue someone in there, or do they have a patron who can get the watch to turn a blind eye or something, or do the PCs have some form of legal authority to enter the warehouse?



Again, it's likely a crime to go into the sewers without permission/ authority of the City council.

What authority do they have to be there?

And even if they have that authority, it's certain that killing sleeping goblins is a crime (and an act of evil). Specifically: Murder.

Of course, whose going to find out/ prosecute them? It's certainly not something that a Good aligned PC would do in any event.

The PCs get a free pass on the breaking-and-entering (which they do trying to rescue someone) because they save a well-connected noble doing so and the Watch captain who shows up is not going to press charges for that. Entering the sewers isn't illegal, though, just ill-advised.


LOL I speak French as a second language and have never heard the word. TIL. I'd have done un anglicisme and said 'cosmopolitain(e)'.

"Cosmopolitain/e" also exists.

[Malifice]

The PCs get a free pass on the breaking-and-entering (which they do trying to rescue someone) because they save a well-connected noble doing so and the Watch captain who shows up is not going to press charges for that. Entering the sewers isn't illegal

Fair enough.

If they're there for a rescue and the Kenkus are trying to kill them, they're fair game.

Odd entering the sewers is legal. It's not everywhere else (IRL). I mean it's probably 'small fine' stuff but hey.

[Merudo]

The PCs get a free pass on the breaking-and-entering (which they do trying to rescue someone) because they save a well-connected noble doing so and the Watch captain who shows up is not going to press charges for that. Entering the sewers isn't illegal, though, just ill-advised.


Doesn't this mean the PCs have to break the law to finish Chapter 1? Isn't that problematic for say a Cleric of Tyr to do?

From the perspective of the PCs the Kenkus may just be protecting their home at the time. Isn't invading someone's home and slaying its occupants when they try to defend it evil?

Keep in mind, the PCs have very little evidence that someone was captured before barging in.

[JackPhoenix]

Odd entering the sewers is legal. It's not everywhere else (IRL). I mean it's probably 'small fine' stuff but hey.

May have something to do with the fact Waterdeep isn't real-life city, and fantasy sewers tend to be full of monsters that need to be dealt with.

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't this mean the PCs have to break the law to finish Chapter 1? Isn't that problematic for say a Cleric of Tyr to do?

From the perspective of the PCs the Kenkus may just be protecting their home at the time. Isn't invading someone's home and slaying its occupants when they try to defend it evil?

Keep in mind, the PCs have very little evidence that someone was captured before barging in.

No law is being broken unless the Watch press charges, if you want to be technical.

Also the warehouse is not the Kenkus' home or even somewhere they work at.

If you want, you could have the PCs smell the spilled blood and the corpses which have started to rot from the outside of the warehouse, it'll definitively clue them something's amiss. Then if the Cleric of Tyr wants to call for the Watch and let them get in, it's up to them, but blood + rotting corpses + someone was probably captured tends to imply a need of urgency.


Fair enough.

If they're there for a rescue and the Kenkus are trying to kill them, they're fair game.

Also helps that the Kenkus are also trespassing (and have helped kill the rightful owners).



Odd entering the sewers is legal. It's not everywhere else (IRL). I mean it's probably 'small fine' stuff but hey.

Well they could get in troubles with the Guild that handle the sewers, but other than that getting in the sewers isn't causing disrupting the peace or annoying the citizens, so the Watch has little reason to care.

[rlc]

It's the French word for "cosmopolitan". I forgot English used a different term.

In English, it apparently just means, "a cosmopolitan person," so I guess somebody who agrees with cosmopolitan society.

[Vogie]

May have something to do with the fact Waterdeep isn't real-life city, and fantasy sewers tend to be full of monsters that need to be dealt with.

Even if it was illegal, I'm pretty sure the only people who'd get mad would be the Dungsweeper's guild, and they would probably prefer the help.

[rlc]

May have something to do with the fact Waterdeep isn't real-life city, and fantasy sewers tend to be full of monsters that need to be dealt with.

There would still need to be some kind of legislation, like you have to at least clean up after yourself and not leave dead bodies around.

[Chronos]

And some of the monsters in the sewers, it's probably best if they're not "dealt with". Sure, otyughs and gelatinous cubes are gross, and they're dangerous if you intrude on their territory, but they're not dangerous to anyone who's minding their own business on the surface, and they help keep the sewers clean.