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View Full Version : Judge, Jury, and Exucutioner



Godna
2007-09-25, 10:12 PM
In game how do you (As the DM) decide to do a story related death? The kinda death that makes the whole group decide I want this prick dead? How do you decide to deal with death in the group before raise dead is an issue? I have a game coming up and 1 of the players isn't going to survive it. This is an easy one the character felt his death was needed to inspire the group of the villain's true evil,(it got me wondering what would have happend if i needed a death and had no volunteers) but what if he hadn't stepped forward and a characters death is still needed without telling the group that one of them is going to die? How do you guys judge who lives and who dies in a story event where a player's death is important?

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-25, 10:40 PM
Requiring a PC's death is a situation that you should quite frankly avoid. A PC should always have the chance of avoiding death. Likewise there should always be a chance of death. Otherwise the PC isn't a PC at all, he is an NPC. The worst thing you can do to a PC is make him die in the boxed text.



DM's Creed
I cannot give assurance of Life
Because you must have challenge worth thought
I cannot give assurance of Death
Because you must have hope

I don't remember where I first read this, but I think it is appropriate here.

VerdugoExplode
2007-09-25, 10:53 PM
I agree with Skjald, killing an PC for the sole purpose of motivating the group is appropriate for paranoia and the Roman Legion, not so much for D&D. PC's may die from a monumentally bad decision, or even random chance but in each case most can recover from that and continue. To arbitrarily say I need someone to die is either going to make them pissed off at you, as a DM for being overly cruel and unimaginative, or each other as they struggle to pick who has to bite the bullet.

If you want to motivate the PC's all you have to do is have the enemy help them, give them assistance, maybe ask for a small favor until they're buddy-buddy or whatever and then have him betray them in a way that deprives them of their shiny objects and maybe sends them to prison. Being framed for a crime or being sent on a death mission without their knowledge are both decent and would probably motivate the PC's enough to your liking.

Godna
2007-09-25, 11:02 PM
That one i mentioned was his(the player) idea not mine. If i wanted motivation I'd have him steal their dragon egg and destroy it. (2 reasons: 1 because their mission is to unite the entire dragon species. 2 because dragons are dying out in the first place)


My idea would probably be a crushing room with an off switch that requires the full attention of a player. Basically a self sacrifice ordeal.

VerdugoExplode
2007-09-25, 11:32 PM
Yeah, this was called Decimation back in the olden days, unfortunately I doubt you have 10 PC's so you'll have to change it accordingly. Asking one of them to die by choice of the others is going to have a monumental impact on morale, and probably not in a good way as the survivors are essentially responsible for that persons death. Their choices led to that characters demise.

Why are you and this player so gung-ho on his demise? If he wants to play a different character couldn't he just say:
"Skippy the wandering half-elf wizard wants to enjoy the rest of his life with his organs on the inside of his body. Fortunately Slippy the wandering human rogue is close by with a convenient plot hook!"

If you're worried that they don't think he's evil enough have them see the aftermath of one of his attacks, using plenty of descriptive words to describe the horrific atrocities he has doubtless committed due to his being very evil.

One final nitpick, why would a villain make a trap that could be escaped through the sacrifice of one person? Why wouldn't he make a crushing ceiling that would kill everyone in the room? A trap like that isn't the mark of an evil person, it's the mark of a dumb person with delusions of grandeur who will probably end up choking to death on a piece of improperly chewed food.

TimeWizard
2007-09-25, 11:42 PM
My DM once asked me out of game a serious question, "Is it acceptable to kill of a player character, for story reasons?" (as in, an event happens where the character dies beyond choices or dice. Think like a cut-scene death). The first thing I thought was, yeah, sure, but not mine. But then I thought about it, what would some of the greatest stories be, if not for an important, plot specific death? Would you feel for Romeo and Juliet if they lived? Mercutio? How about McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Would Final Fantasy 7 been as memorable with Aerith dying?

Good examples or not, I thought that for the sake of a good story, a character can sometime just die. Players can, of course, make new ones.

Extra bit: Yes, I realize many, many people would feel cheated if their character was killed beyond their control. With the love and effort you put in to making them, and living them.

Dausuul
2007-09-26, 12:21 AM
My DM once asked me out of game a serious question, "Is it acceptable to kill of a player character, for story reasons?" (as in, an event happens where the character dies beyond choices or dice. Think like a cut-scene death). The first thing I thought was, yeah, sure, but not mine. But then I thought about it, what would some of the greatest stories be, if not for an important, plot specific death? Would you feel for Romeo and Juliet if they lived? Mercutio? How about McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Would Final Fantasy 7 been as memorable with Aerith dying?

D&D is a game, not a story. Good stories often make lousy D&D campaigns, and vice versa.

If a player wants his or her character to die, then you are certainly free to work it into the campaign arc, but that's the only time you should actively plot a PC death. Otherwise, plot-related death should be strictly an NPC-only thing.

Moreover, if you want it to make the other players mad at the BBEG (instead of at you), you should really make it look like a death the character could have avoided but didn't. Fudge the rolls to make it look like a lucky crit or something.

tannish2
2007-09-26, 12:32 AM
if the player wants to get rid of the character, fine. but really no competent villian would do anything where one character could suicide and get the party out. unless the rest were needed for something. and even then, they might have some fun with the surviviors(feeblemind? symbol of insanity?).

Bassetking
2007-09-26, 01:11 AM
My DM once asked me out of game a serious question, "Is it acceptable to kill of a player character, for story reasons?" (as in, an event happens where the character dies beyond choices or dice. Think like a cut-scene death). The first thing I thought was, yeah, sure, but not mine. But then I thought about it, what would some of the greatest stories be, if not for an important, plot specific death? Would you feel for Romeo and Juliet if they lived? Mercutio? How about McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Would Final Fantasy 7 been as memorable with Aerith dying?

(EDIT: Thing is? Originally the reason for that highlight was to provide for a Phoenix Down joke. I've failed you all by forgetting to include it.)

Good examples or not, I thought that for the sake of a good story, a character can sometime just die. Players can, of course, make new ones.

Extra bit: Yes, I realize many, many people would feel cheated if their character was killed beyond their control. With the love and effort you put in to making them, and living them.

Thing is?

If I'm reading a novel, watching a play, or engaging in some CRPG... I'm filtering every "Dramatis Personae" through my own interpretation. Mercutio's death means something to me because of my investment and understanding of his relationship to the story as a whole.

I am affected in as much as I am, by the role that scene plays in the static storyline I'm witnessing. As such, I'm involved in discovering how and what this means to me, and the story I'm following.

My noble sacrifice, so Bob can get a new hat, and Steve can get a +1 Keen Gnomish Hooked Hammer pisses me off.

My noble and emotionally stirring sacrifice? The sacrifice in which my character stoically holds down the trap lever, buying his comrades just enough time to sprint to safety, beyond the range of the trap? The sacrifice which serves as the stark backdrop against which the grimy villany of Lo'pah, Monarch of Vermin is laid? The sacrifice which allows my party to move forward with a truer and deeper understanding of sacrifice, personal strength, and honor?

STILL LEAVES ME A GREASY STAIN ON THE DUNGEON FLOOR.

I, as an involved and active member in the development of the story, am being told, directly in this case, that my development, my investment, my understanding and to-date contribution has to end, because it's just not as important in the long run as Bob and Steve's contributions.

But that's not the worst of it.

Not only is my contribution not as important, in the long run, as Bob and Steve's, but the BEST thing I could do for the group? Stop Playing.

Arbitrary story death says to your players "Your character is of more direct value and semantic worth to this campaign dead, than alive."

PnP Fan
2007-09-26, 01:29 AM
I've come upon this situation in the past, it's really not that big of a deal.

I agree, you should never start a campaign/story arc with the predetermined idea that one/any of the PC's MUST DIE (with the possible exception of the campaign finale) at any point in the story. But. . . if the Player comes to you and wants to change characters, and asks to kill of the character, then I think you should probably do what you can to satisfy your story and the player's desires. I personally sent one PC off in a starwars game a few years ago, with a fairly heroic death. I think he took out a bunch of Yuzhan Vong fighters or a cruiser or something, by crashing his own version of the Falcon into them. The player loved it. He got to go out in martyr fashion, and got to bring in a new character. It was pre arranged, all his idea, so there were no hurt feelings, or anything. The rest of the players were surprised, until we explained that it was planned.

Just give the PC a death that is worthwhile. I totally agree that his death shouldn't be over a handful of magic items, and the PC's oportunity to get out of a trap. However you do it, it should push the plot forward in a meaningful way (perhaps killing one of the BBEG in the campaign. . .).

Godna
2007-09-26, 06:21 AM
Yeah, this was called Decimation back in the olden days, unfortunately I doubt you have 10 PC's so you'll have to change it accordingly. I do but thats not his fault hes crazy:smallwink:

Why are you and this player so gung-ho on his demise? If he wants to play a different character couldn't he just say[/QUOTE]
Ask him not me. The main reason i feel it works is that his character is the brother of one of the other character so thats why.



If you're worried that they don't think he's evil enough have them see the aftermath of one of his attacks, using plenty of descriptive words to describe the horrific atrocities he has doubtless committed due to his being very evil.
Hes not evil per say thats the problem he is a super religious zealot paladin who should have fallen a long time a go.


One final nitpick, why would a villain make a trap that could be escaped through the sacrifice of one person? Why wouldn't he make a crushing ceiling that would kill everyone in the room? A trap like that isn't the mark of an evil person, it's the mark of a dumb person with delusions of grandeur who will probably end up choking to death on a piece of improperly chewed food.
Got him Pegged to a T

Winterwind
2007-09-26, 06:29 AM
My stance regarding this is as follows.

While playing an RPG is, pretty much, telling a story, it is not the DM who is telling the story, it's the entire group, collectively. And the characters are strictly the respective players' domain. The DM has no right, no right whatsoever to decide a character must die for the story - that's up to the player.

The DM is not somehow privileged or has a better understanding than the players what is good for the story. Otherwise, it would not be collective storytelling anymore. The DM should stick to NPCs and environment, but massive changes for a player character (and death does most definitely constitute a massive change) are solely up to the players.

TimeWizard
2007-09-26, 08:36 AM
I am glad all the previous responses were civil. I may be the only one, or one member of a small, small minority, but the skill in which the event in question was handled by the DM was superb. I also failed to mention that there was something of a group consensus before the game in which the players (myself included) decided that it was the sort of thing they would be ok with.

Runolfr
2007-09-26, 08:56 AM
My opinion?

As DM, you should never decide who (of your PCs) dies.

If you have very understanding players, you might create a situation that requires one player to sacrifice his/her character for the others, but let them decide among themselves who is willing to die so the others can live. If they come up with a creative alternate solution that requires none of them to make the sacrifice, just roll with it.

Since you have a volunteer in this situation, you have no problem. Normally, the way to get a party incensed is to off one of their favorite NPCs.