Make Me the Worst Character Without More Than 2 MCs

[BigPixie]

For example, a beastmaster 6/transmuter 5/and a frenzy barb 11 the worst of the worst LOL. :smallbiggrin:

[Amdy_vill]

For example, a beastmaster 6/transmuter 5/and a frenzy barb 11 the worst of the worst LOL. :smallbiggrin:

Thats not all that bad. sub optimal but not unplayable and by 2mc do you mean 3 or 4 classes?

[Man_Over_Game]

For example, a beastmaster 6/transmuter 5/and a frenzy barb 11 the worst of the worst LOL. :smallbiggrin:

Battlerager Barbarian 5, Arcane Archer Fighter 5, Shephard Druid 10.

You can't concentrate on summons while raging, you can't use your rage bonuses while making ranged attacks, your Druid and Barbarian powers have a lot of competition with Bonus Actions, you have a redundant level between your Fighter and your Barbarian, and your Arcane Archer abilities only work if you have Intelligence and Dexterity.

[Rhedyn]

Champion 4, Frenzy Barbarian 4, Thief 12

No spell casting, no second attack, delayed rogue abilities. You are basically a worse rogue late game and a poor martial early game.

If you purposely play lowest stats (for MC), you just aren't useful. Even assuming decent stats you are still kind of bad and contribute little to the group.

[BigPixie]

I meant 3 classes. (sorry Man_Over_Game)

[Man_Over_Game]

I meant 3 classes. (sorry Man_Over_Game)

Not sure what you mean, though? I only have 3 classes in my recommendation.

[BigPixie]

Sorry I'm stupid and I can't count. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, almost any 4/4/12 build is going to have severe trouble*, especially martial ones. Even good synergy won't save you when you're a full tier behind everyone else in terms of raw offensive power.

My suggestion would be to start with Ranger 1/Paladin 1/Monk 1, to start you off with the three weakest first levels in the game. Then take Beast Master Ranger to 4th, then Four Elements Monk, then Paladin. Then take your remaining levels in Monk. Put your points in Str and Int, but still try to fight like a Monk.


*Unless they have a good Cha and 2 levels of Warlock, in which case you'll always have a solid level-based offense and everything else can eat a butt.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Four Elements Monk, Undying Warlock, Berserker Barbarian? Need DEX/WIS, then CHA, then STR/CON. Only INT gets left out of the party.

[Rhedyn]

You know. I think an 8 Strength, 8 Dex, and 8 con champion fighter is going to be worse than any multiclass build. So if point buy is an option, that's the worse character. I don't care if you have action surge or 4 attacks. Bad health + Poor AC or move speed + no damage = worthless. Spend every ASI on further boosting mental stats but never become proficient in one (take dex skills and athletics).

[Throne12]

You know. I think an 8 Strength, 8 Dex, and 8 con champion fighter is going to be worse than any multiclass build. So if point buy is an option, that's the worse character. I don't care if you have action surge or 4 attacks. Bad health + Poor AC or move speed + no damage = worthless. Spend every ASI on further boosting mental stats but never become proficient in one (take dex skills and athletics).

You can fix that build with two feats. First one MI druid pick up shillelagh. Then next one pick up Inspiring leader for a goo chunk of temp hp. Find magic items to help with AC.

[Rhedyn]

You can fix that build with two feats. First one MI druid pick up shillelagh. Then next one pick up Inspiring leader for a goo chunk of temp hp. Find magic items to help with AC. But you aren't spending ASI on feats.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You know. I think an 8 Strength, 8 Dex, and 8 con champion fighter is going to be worse than any multiclass build. So if point buy is an option, that's the worse character. I don't care if you have action surge or 4 attacks. Bad health + Poor AC or move speed + no damage = worthless. Spend every ASI on further boosting mental stats but never become proficient in one (take dex skills and athletics).
Hmm. You can do that with a multiclass build if you're careful, though, and still avoid high level features. Like, the aforementioned Ranger 4/Fighter 4/Rogue 12 could have 8 Str, 13 Dex, 8 Con, and fight with a non-Finesse weapon.

[strangebloke]

Honestly, almost any 4/4/12 build is going to have severe trouble*, especially martial ones. Even good synergy won't save you when you're a full tier behind everyone else in terms of raw offensive power.

My suggestion would be to start with Ranger 1/Paladin 1/Monk 1, to start you off with the three weakest first levels in the game. Then take Beast Master Ranger to 4th, then Four Elements Monk, then Paladin. Then take your remaining levels in Monk. Put your points in Str and Int, but still try to fight like a Monk.

*Unless they have a good Cha and 2 levels of Warlock, in which case you'll always have a solid level-based offense and everything else can eat a butt.

I think you're pretty much right... for the worst levels a character could take in order. But if you're talking about the worst total build, I'll point you to a divine soul sorcerer who uses the largest spell list in the game to pick exclusively terrible and niche spells with nonsynergistic metamagic options. Besides having the weakest base chassis in the game, such a divine soul will only have weird, stupid uses that nobody cares about. Having 9th level slots isn't any good when you spend all your spells known on Jump, Detect Poison and Disease, and Create or Destroy Water. You only have 15 spells known, so it isn't even that hard.

You focus STR, WIS, and INT, leave yourself with negative CHA, CON, and DEX. Your AC is 9 and your cantrips are infestation, true strike, blade ward, spare the dying, gust, and dancing lights. Your HP at 20th level is 60, and you took careful, extended, heightened, and distant metamagics without taking any spells that are actually effected by those. All your important saves that aren't WIS are at -1 as well.

You're left with a character whose best weapon option is a greatclub, which they can attack with once a turn, while having lower HP than a 5th level barbarian, a few low-level niche spells which they can cast dozens of times, and the lowest possible AC in the game. 1/short rest you can help yourself on an attack roll, empower healing spells (but not cast them), 1/long rest heal yourself for half your HP (30 points!) and fly.

The last ability is actually really good, but its still only 30 foot move speed, so it isn't like you can get away in a timely fashion.

You will have exactly one good spell due to your alignment. Personally, I think the worst option here is 'inflict wounds' given that even though it's scalable, it's also a melee spell attack.

Taking monk levels would actually force you to get some useful stats. I could see an argument in this build for 3 levels of ranger and/or a level of paladin, but honestly that just gives you better HP and attack options and we don't want that.

For race I'd go straight orc. This makes your total modifiers at the end a whopping +3 total, and your only interesting ability let's you charge down the enemy, something you're uniquely unsuited to doing.

Divine Soul 20, the worst build in the game.

[MeimuHakurei]

Just a small wrinkle in the rules you need to pay attention to when including point-buy stat spreads: Multiclassing requires you to have at least a 13 in the main stat of the class you're MCing into.

[CTurbo]

Let's see...

Vhuman Barbarian 4, Open Hand Monk 4, Wild Sorcerer 12.

14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 13 Cha

Level 1 we take Heavily Armored
Barb 4 we take Skulker
Monk 4 we take Grappler
Sorcerer 4 we take Res(Int)
Sorcerer 8 we take Dungeon Delver
Sorcerer 12 we take Charger

Wear plate, speed 20ft, use Greataxe

[JackPhoenix]

Wizard with 8 in all physical stats who insists on going in melee with... let's say sickle... and doesn't take any spells that help with that.

[LudicSavant]

Wizard with 8 in all physical stats who insists on going in melee with... let's say sickle... and doesn't take any spells that help with that.

Just take Witch Bolt and Illusory Script and such

[Unoriginal]

Kobold

STR 6.

Starting level Wizard/the rest all Barbarian.

Wear plate armor and use Greatsword only.

[Citan]

Hi!

For example, a beastmaster 6/transmuter 5/and a frenzy barb 11 the worst of the worst LOL. :smallbiggrin:
Extra Attack, good mobility, scout companion, access to many good rituals up to 3rd level, bonus on attacks and resistance...
If that is the "worst" then I'm completely fine with that level of worst.
Honestly? FAIL.


Battlerager Barbarian 5, Arcane Archer Fighter 5, Shephard Druid 10.

You can't concentrate on summons while raging, you can't use your rage bonuses while making ranged attacks, your Druid and Barbarian powers have a lot of competition with Bonus Actions, you have a redundant level between your Fighter and your Barbarian, and your Arcane Archer abilities only work if you have Intelligence and Dexterity.
Level 5 is not entirely redundant since you get extra mobility and rage from Barbarian 5, Shephard Druid's Aura works even while raging (not a spell, no concentration), you can further boost your mobility with Longstrider, and you get access to spells up to level 5 with ability to change every day.
You actually made a very good character that can either wade into melee with Longstrider+rage+ Reckless Attack THP or keep at range and play full strength, with Arcane Shot + Hawk aura (using your reaction to grant advantage on your own attack if needed) or Bear aura with a Conjure Animals.
True, there could have been better archetypes for this tri-class, but you are still a very effective character.
BIG FAIL.


Champion 4, Frenzy Barbarian 4, Thief 12

No spell casting, no second attack, delayed rogue abilities. You are basically a worse rogue late game and a poor martial early game.

If you purposely play lowest stats (for MC), you just aren't useful. Even assuming decent stats you are still kind of bad and contribute little to the group.
You can still land Sneak Attack with improved critical, boasts very nice defense, awesome DEX saves, awesome emergency damage reduction (rage + Uncanny Dodge), can easily heal partners provided you just pick Healer feat, and can still take care of whatever skill check you're Expert in and most checks you're proficient in.
BIG FAIL.

You want a crappy character with tri-class?
Pick Sun Soul Monk 6 / Conquest Paladin 6 / Evoker Wizard 8.
The total MADness (including Constitution) and little way of feats means you have to be a standard Human and start all 14 around, or be something else and use ASIs to bump stats to meet requirement.
Whatever happens, you have to either choose one stat and completely ignore other or rely on self-buffs and hope for the best.
Because Martial Arts require Unarmored, and you'd have crappy AC, you'll probably get medium armor, so no free bonus action weapon attack, no speed bonus.
Worst thing? EVEN THAT CHARACTER CAN ACTUALLY BE PRETTY DECENT.
- You still have access to spells up to level 4, and Wizard list is the biggest, so you could simply pick mostly utility spells except for Fireball. You can also get Catnap to quickly recharge your Channel Divinity and Ki. -> You'd have to pick only offensive spells with no effect on save to really crap yourself here.
- You still have a decent bump to all saves thanks to Aura of Protection, even if you stay at 14.
- You still have a decent chance to help dealing damage, between Stunning Strike (more situational than usual considering low WIS but can still hit), Bless (decent buff), and multiple attempts to shove prone.
- You can actually tank much better than a regular Paladin because, since you could use Ki on Dodge as bonus action.
- You can actually use Monk's bonus action Burning Hands with Evoker's "no friendly fire" (you're still casting a spell).
For the best or the worst, we have to admit it's actually *hard* to make a good-for-nothing character.


You REALLY want a useless character with no latitude to "correct" it?
Pick a Fighter with crappy physical stats, make it an Arcane Archer (which has very little ways to help its own to-hit), pick only martial feats that would aggravate things like GWM (which obviously anti-synergize with archetype). DONE.
That's about the only case I can think of right now.
EVEN a Barbarian or other Fighter archetypes could still be made to work with "optimizing nerf" stats.
Other martials that get access to spells can be made useful another way, although obviously they will lose potency at the highest levels but could still act as decent meat tanks or supports.
Fullcasters are a non-option, since even with the crappiest stats, just spell choice and class/archetype features can be enough to make it a worthy addition to any party.

Beyond that, you can make any "good" character crappy by actively building it and playing it against all reason (like some examples above), but that's not a design flaw in that (those) class(es), rather a flaw in player's brain (or full-awareness self-aggravating choice for the fun of it).

[Sahe]

How about approaching this from a different perspective of making a character that is bad mechanically, but still fun to play with for you and all others involved even if potentially volatile.

I of course talk about the Wild Magic Sorcerer introducing a new unpredictable element of randomness into the mix.

But we can go further. You're a wild magic Sorc, your magic is uncontrolled and thus you don't pick your spells and cantrips...you roll for them randomly. When you level up, roll for you new spell, drop a random spell you know and reroll for that as well. You are chaos incarnate. Maybe take Magic Ininiate for more random spells.

For even more fun, you could even roll for the spells you cast or introduce your own mechanic where you have a chance to cast the wrong spell entirely.

You can even otherwise build this character properly but the amount of uncertainty and randomness introduced into the game can lead to some interesting results and a "bad" character without having your group not invite you to the next session.

[strangebloke]

Wizard with 8 in all physical stats who insists on going in melee with... let's say sickle... and doesn't take any spells that help with that.
This puts an additional restriction on the player, that they have to get into melee. If you're making the player of this completely terrible character play poorly, then the option is clear:

It doesn't matter what the build is. Any character that immediately commits ritual suicide is the worst character.

Kobold

STR 6.

Starting level Wizard/the rest all Barbarian.

Wear plate armor and use Greatsword only.
Forcing him to wear plate and armor and use a greatsword is not part of the build; that's up to the player, and we're talking about the most impossible-to-play build not the worst strategy. As I say above, that's committing suicide immediately.

Even then, a barbarian with strength six is pretty bad. The only issue is that he'll still have rage, manageable to-hit, mediocre AC, and extra attack.


You REALLY want a useless character with no latitude to "correct" it?
Pick a Fighter with crappy physical stats, make it an Arcane Archer (which has very little ways to help its own to-hit), pick only martial feats that would aggravate things like GWM (which obviously anti-synergize with archetype). DONE.
That's about the only case I can think of right now.
EVEN a Barbarian or other Fighter archetypes could still be made to work with "optimizing nerf" stats.
Other martials that get access to spells can be made useful another way, although obviously they will lose potency at the highest levels but could still act as decent meat tanks or supports.
Fullcasters are a non-option, since even with the crappiest stats, just spell choice and class/archetype features can be enough to make it a worthy addition to any party.

Beyond that, you can make any "good" character crappy by actively building it and playing it against all reason (like some examples above), but that's not a design flaw in that (those) class(es), rather a flaw in player's brain (or full-awareness self-aggravating choice for the fun of it).

Yeah, I think this arcane archer is probably up there. I mean, goodness, +3 to attack at level 1 is terrible. Just be sure not to pick up Sharpshooter as that's actually a great feat even when you're low on +ATTACK.

[Chronos]

Citan, you're objecting that some of these suggestions don't count because they could be improved. But that's kind of the whole point: If a build is the worst ever, then of course it could be improved. It could, in fact, be improved by doing absolutely anything to change it.

That said, I also agree with strangebloke that equipment and tactics shouldn't enter into the calculation. The way I see this challenge, person A designs the build, and then person B has to sit down with that build at the table, and do the best he can with it, and we want to handicap B as much as possible. If B can fix the build just by saying "I take off the heavy armor and switch to a more appropriate weapon", then the build isn't so bad. But some of these, the best you can do is to cower in the back ranks until you level up, and then start re-building.

With that in mind, I'd say that the worst is the sorcerer with 8 Charisma and poor spell choices. Even if you try to fix it on your next level up, the best you can do is get two good spells. You can't even multiclass to something that better suits your stats, because you need a 13 mainstat in both classes to multiclass, so you'd need to stick it out for three ASIs before that'd even be an option.

[strangebloke]

Citan, you're objecting that some of these suggestions don't count because they could be improved. But that's kind of the whole point: If a build is the worst ever, then of course it could be improved. It could, in fact, be improved by doing absolutely anything to change it.

That said, I also agree with strangebloke that equipment and tactics shouldn't enter into the calculation. The way I see this challenge, person A designs the build, and then person B has to sit down with that build at the table, and do the best he can with it, and we want to handicap B as much as possible. If B can fix the build just by saying "I take off the heavy armor and switch to a more appropriate weapon", then the build isn't so bad. But some of these, the best you can do is to cower in the back ranks until you level up, and then start re-building.

With that in mind, I'd say that the worst is the sorcerer with 8 Charisma and poor spell choices. Even if you try to fix it on your next level up, the best you can do is get two good spells. You can't even multiclass to something that better suits your stats, because you need a 13 mainstat in both classes to multiclass, so you'd need to stick it out for three ASIs before that'd even be an option.

Ah, always good to be agreed with.

That said, I think @Citan's idea of an arcane archer with bad feats and negative physical stats to be pretty good/bad as well. There's the same multiclassing problem, and you've no way to get good spells and/or features. Even worse, you do need to hit to get off your one decent feature.

I'd still prefer the Divine Soul, though, simply because the basic chassis is already so weak. A sorcerer with 8 CON, DEX, and CHA is going to be a joke no matter what they do, but if their spell selection is also terrible as is their metamagic... they don't have any other class features to use.

Its why they edge out the warlock, IMO, despite the warlock having worse casting feature(s). The warlock at least can put on light armor and have +1 HP per level.

[Chronos]

I think the arcane archer ends up stronger, because underneath it all, they're still a fighter: They can make multiple attacks per round, wear good armor, and so on. Ignore your subclass, and pick whatever weapon works well with your fighting style. Your bonus will still be low, but you'll still hit occasionally if you make enough attacks.

Thinking more about that sorcerer: Your base scores are Str 13, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 9 (yeah, no armor class penalty, but I think it's worth it for dropping your Str from +2 to +1). Rock gnome adds +1 Con, +2 Int to that: Con is still a penalty, and Int is completely useless to you. Between background and class, you'll have four skills, and probably two extra languages: Let's say Deception, Intimidation, Performance, and Persuasion (hey, you're trying to be charismatic!).

[Potato_Priest]

So, I once challenged my players to do exactly this- it was going to be a one shot in which the party would eventually end up fighting each other to the death, and I switched their characters around after they made them.
The rules when I did it were somewhat different- level 5, no multiclassing, had to spend all your points in point buy, and take the default health, but the results may still prove interesting for your analysis. It's worth noting that two of the players were a lot better at optimization (and therefore also un-optimization) than the others.

my results when I asked players to do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544613-Leased-optimized-character&p=22694190&viewfull=1#post22694190)

[strangebloke]

I think the arcane archer ends up stronger, because underneath it all, they're still a fighter: They can make multiple attacks per round, wear good armor, and so on. Ignore your subclass, and pick whatever weapon works well with your fighting style. Your bonus will still be low, but you'll still hit occasionally if you make enough attacks.

Thinking more about that sorcerer: Your base scores are Str 13, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 9 (yeah, no armor class penalty, but I think it's worth it for dropping your Str from +2 to +1). Rock gnome adds +1 Con, +2 Int to that: Con is still a penalty, and Int is completely useless to you. Between background and class, you'll have four skills, and probably two extra languages: Let's say Deception, Intimidation, Performance, and Persuasion (hey, you're trying to be charismatic!).

Oh, I agree. I mean, using medium armor in conjunction with a shield you'll at least have 17 AC and 6 hp per level, which is a lot better than the sorcerer. The AA could at least dodge his way through most fights and at high levels could eventually bludgeon an ogre to death.

For the sorcerer, I'd prefer going orc.

darkvision and +3 STR, sure, but I feel the need to remind you that he only gets one attack a round.

[Potato_Priest]

That said, I think @Citan's idea of an arcane archer with bad feats and negative physical stats to be pretty good/bad as well. There's the same multiclassing problem, and you've no way to get good spells and/or features. Even worse, you do need to hit to get off your one decent feature.


If you're building an arcane archer, the worst feat you can take is elemental adept. You satisfy the prerequisite of being able to cast a spell after 3rd level when you get a cantrip, but without a damage spell it does actually nothing, while many other feats would at least have a side benefit. Better, yet, you can take it as many times as you need to with different damage types.

[JNAProductions]

I like the Divine Soul presented. Nice and crappy. :P

[Rerem115]

Singleclassed Halfling Berserker Barbarian, dumping Str, Dex, and Con. Put all your ASIs into Keen Mind, Linguist, Savage Attacker, Weapon Master, and Dual Wielder.

You don't have skills, you don't have AC, you don't have damage. You do ignore critical failures, but that's about it.

[CTurbo]

A 20th level Wizard that wears Plate without proficiency. Done.

[Citan]

Citan, you're objecting that some of these suggestions don't count because they could be improved. But that's kind of the whole point: If a build is the worst ever, then of course it could be improved. It could, in fact, be improved by doing absolutely anything to change it.

That was not my point actually.
My point was...
- Suggestions I highlighted were not bad per se. There would be bad only if you as a player actually tries to undermine it.
- If a player actually actively undermines it, then you can pick the best optimized build of whatever kind, it will still be absolutely worthless.

---> The only way to properly answer OP's challenge is to make builds that suck whatever choices player would otherwise make, in other words, that would still suck even if the player tried as hard as possible to improve them.
That's why it's extremely hard to make sucky characters as soon as you put any caster into it.
Because WoTC did such a great job at balancing things and keeping low level spells (at least several dozen of them) relevant, even a caster with the worst stats can still be a great asset.
This holds true for some classes, like Barbarian. Even with a 8 in all physicales, he still has reduction damage, high die, advantage on attacks, defensive features etc: he can at least be a meat bag, and any decent party would have several ways to help him offset these weaknesses.

In fact, even my "worst" build of Arcane Archer with crappy physicals is worst only if you also impose feats choices (or remove feats altogether). Because otherwise, that guy could simply pick Observant, Keen Mind, Ritual Caster, Healer/Inspiring Leader and become a powerhouse of support.
That is the reason why I said "Arcane Archer with GWM".

And that's the same reason why...

Ah, always good to be agreed with.

That said, I think @Citan's idea of an arcane archer with bad feats and negative physical stats to be pretty good/bad as well. There's the same multiclassing problem, and you've no way to get good spells and/or features. Even worse, you do need to hit to get off your one decent feature.

I'd still prefer the Divine Soul, though, simply because the basic chassis is already so weak. A sorcerer with 8 CON, DEX, and CHA is going to be a joke no matter what they do, but if their spell selection is also terrible as is their metamagic... they don't have any other class features to use.

Its why they edge out the warlock, IMO, despite the warlock having worse casting feature(s). The warlock at least can put on light armor and have +1 HP per level.
I strongly disagree with this. You get 8 all around? Pick Extended metamagic, pick Subtle metamagic, later Twin, spend time buffing companions, stack Warcaster, +2 CON, +2 CHA, Inspiring Leader and Tough or Ritual Caster, you're done. You still end as a guy that can Enhance whatever check is needed, keep a small party Flying, facilitate pals sneaking with twin/Extended Invisibility, revive people with Revivify and Raise Dead, and later get divination spells and ultimately Wish, Holy Aura, True Resurrection. On fight, you can Help, use spells that deal damage on a save, or use spells which are rarely resisted like INT ones.

Again, if you consider player's choices, then the thread is moot.
You could be a level 20 Bladesinger Wizard with 20 INT and 20 DEX: just spend your time using level 1 Magic Missile, you will be as useless as any one could ever be at that level. Worse, spend it casting Burning Hands (which implies you are damn close to danger), so you'll die quickly. Or spend your career only learning 1st level spells ever. That's equally a waste.

[Kadesh]

Great Weapon Master, 4E Monk 4/Barbarian 4/Paladin 5

Mix until 20. The limit Ki Pool exacerbated by the awful cost of the spells, that you cannot cast while raging, not gaining extra attack until 13, Rage Bonus and Smites do not trigger from unarmed strikes, Cha to saves is pointless with only a +1. Heavy cannot be used with Monk. Defensive fighting style cannot be used without armour. Cannot use armour for unarmoured and Monk abilities. The key things you want from Monk, Barb and Paladin all work in direct juxtaposition to one another.

[Citan]

Great Weapon Master, 4E Monk 4/Barbarian 4/Paladin 5

Mix until 20. The limit Ki Pool exacerbated by the awful cost of the spells, that you cannot cast while raging, not gaining extra attack until 13, Rage Bonus and Smites do not trigger from unarmed strikes, Cha to saves is pointless with only a +1. Heavy cannot be used with Monk. Defensive fighting style cannot be used without armour. Cannot use armour for unarmoured and Monk abilities. The key things you want from Monk, Barb and Paladin all work in direct juxtaposition to one another.
Wow, this is actually a very good candidate for the top! :smallbiggrin:

Your key elements are "no Extra Attack until very late" and "impose GWM feat+weapon".
Without those, that build would be only significantly underpowered: only a few low level slots, mostly useless for smite, only able to fuel some Bless when you have no raging left. But unless you pick Ancients (which CD would be far too unreliable), Channel Divinity features are enough to still make you somewhat useful. And you could go full resource for the biggest fight of every day and be actually a decent tank (Rage reduction + armor + shield + Dodge as bonus action for a ki)

With both restrictions?
Waiting as late as possible for Extra Attack, without access to weapon cantrips, nor access to regular bonus action weapon attack (Monk, dual-wielding) and very unreliable bonus action weapon attack from GWM (crit/death), you are indeed one magnitude behind every other martial, even non-optimized.
And the few slots you have means overall the main choice besides Attack is Help.

And while why I said above stays true (using all three resources to tank), it's true for at most 2 encounters per day.

Yeah... Without feats, I'll happily put your suggestion on the top 3 at least, possibly even 1st. ^^
With feats, it can be saved but will be still worse than the aforementioned pure Fighter who can at least pick more utility feats.

GG ;à)

[strangebloke]

That was not my point actually.
My point was...
- Suggestions I highlighted were not bad per se. There would be bad only if you as a player actually tries to undermine it.
- If a player actually actively undermines it, then you can pick the best optimized build of whatever kind, it will still be absolutely worthless.

---> The only way to properly answer OP's challenge is to make builds that suck whatever choices player would otherwise make, in other words, that would still suck even if the player tried as hard as possible to improve them.
That's why it's extremely hard to make sucky characters as soon as you put any caster into it.
Because WoTC did such a great job at balancing things and keeping low level spells (at least several dozen of them) relevant, even a caster with the worst stats can still be a great asset.
This holds true for some classes, like Barbarian. Even with a 8 in all physicales, he still has reduction damage, high die, advantage on attacks, defensive features etc: he can at least be a meat bag, and any decent party would have several ways to help him offset these weaknesses.

In fact, even my "worst" build of Arcane Archer with crappy physicals is worst only if you also impose feats choices (or remove feats altogether). Because otherwise, that guy could simply pick Observant, Keen Mind, Ritual Caster, Healer/Inspiring Leader and become a powerhouse of support.
That is the reason why I said "Arcane Archer with GWM".

And that's the same reason why...

I strongly disagree with this. You get 8 all around? Pick Extended metamagic, pick Subtle metamagic, later Twin, spend time buffing companions, stack Warcaster, +2 CON, +2 CHA, Inspiring Leader and Tough or Ritual Caster, you're done. You still end as a guy that can Enhance whatever check is needed, keep a small party Flying, facilitate pals sneaking with twin/Extended Invisibility, revive people with Revivify and Raise Dead, and later get divination spells and ultimately Wish, Holy Aura, True Resurrection. On fight, you can Help, use spells that deal damage on a save, or use spells which are rarely resisted like INT ones.

Ops question was about a twentieth level build.

Ie, player tactics and strategies should be assumed to be competent, but future build decisions shouldn't be. We're not creating the worst twelfth level build and going from there.

I spelled out the spells and metamagic that he should take earlier. The Divine soul opens up the option for some truly gloriously bad spells (for a sorcerer)

[BigPixie]

I was thinking off the top of my head when I made that 1st post so please don't give any more hate. I'm not that guy who spends hours dreaming up s*** builds for fun.

[strangebloke]

I was thinking off the top of my head when I made that 1st post so please don't give any more hate. I'm not that guy who spends hours dreaming up s*** builds for fun.

Haha, its fine, we're just a pedantic set of nerds who love to argue like this.

I think that, depending on how you define your terms, the divine soul build or the 4/4/12 martials build is probably the worst.

[CTurbo]

Gnome Beserker Barbarian 4/Four Elements Monk 4/Evocation Wizard 12

13 Str, 13 Dex, 9 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, 15 Cha

Skulker
Elemental Adept
Charger
Grappler
GWM


Use a Great Axe and wear Plate armor

You can't cast spells, have disadvantage on all attacks, and have a 15ft speed.

[Chronos]

Of course you can cast spells and attack without disadvantage. You just start by taking off your armor and dropping your axe. If you're going to say "must wield axe" as part of the "build", then you might as well also include "must wear blindfold" or "must keep head in bucket of water", or something.

[Kadesh]

Haha, its fine, we're just a pedantic set of nerds who love to argue like this.

I think that, depending on how you define your terms, the divine soul build or the 4/4/12 martials build is probably the worst.

To be honest, a 5/5/10 build is largely worse, provided you don't take that 5th level in any class earlier than Character level 13. The notable exception is Monk, who gets access to Stunning Strike. Paladin could be argued for as 2nd level spell access is a slight uptick on Smites. Fighter is genuinely a great splash at low level due to Action Surge, noone complains about having additional actions to use.