Working on a Mutants & Masterminds 3e Fix

[Draz74]

M&M is already a great system, but there are some acknowledged problems with the system's rules. I'm trying to set up my own set of house rules that fix the most egregious problems. It will be heavily based on NintendoGeek's series of discussion threads from last summer, with some additional influence from Quellian-Dyrae's work.

I intend to ask the forums for advice on a number of issues that I'm still not sure how to fix, though.

The first of these is: the Beginner's Luck Advantage. I LOVE the flavor of it, so I don't want to just discard it. But the +5 effective skill bonus you get from it is just weak, especially compared with the ability to pick up Enhanced Skills from a Power Stunt, even though Beginner's Luck lasts for a scene rather than just a round.

How can I boost this advantage to be worthwhile? I'm thinking of things like not requiring a Hero Point at all, but limiting it to 1/scene or something?

[Elana]

Just giving a +5 for nothing at all would be overpowered(you get 2.5 points worth of skill in any skill you haven't picked for just 1 point payed)

But as it is supposed to be luck and not free competence...
Something like free reroll on fail for a skill without ranks could be fair. (Using the given hero point reroll mechanic that add 10 to any roll below 10)
It keeps the luck aspect and makes sure that actually having the skill would enable higher possible results

[JustIgnoreMe]

Someone did the maths once, a free re-roll is roughly equivalent to +5 anyway.

[Elana]

Not quite. It depends on the number you are rolling.
Especially with the re roll mechanic in mutants and mastermind.
Basic examples


DC
Chance with+5
Chance with M&M reroll


10
80%
100%


15
55%
62.5%


20
30%
14.5%


21
25%
0%

[Reversefigure4]

I think Beginner's Luck is fine when used in the right context. It's not for idly making a roll, it's for when that hero needs to make a string of dramatic rolls over the course of a scene. Disarming a bomb, in a helicopter chase, ongoing problems in that neighbourhood where there isn't a more skilled hero capable of doing the job.

Enhanced Skills from a power stunt as a substitute are also heavily dependent on the GM allowing it. There's plenty of powers you can't stunt into disarming a bomb, for example.

[Draz74]

Just giving a +5 for nothing at all would be overpowered(you get 2.5 points worth of skill in any skill you haven't picked for just 1 point payed)
It's similar to taking Variable 1, Slow, Limited 2 to Skills with <5 ranks, Quirk 3 (only 2 power points). But I guess some might feel that is overpowered too. And that would be a +4 bonus instead of a +5 bonus.

I don't know, I'm not convinced that it's overpowered, but I'm not convinced it's a great solution either. Hence my asking for ideas!


But as it is supposed to be luck and not free competence...
Something like free reroll on fail for a skill without ranks could be fair. (Using the given hero point reroll mechanic that add 10 to any roll below 10)
It keeps the luck aspect and makes sure that actually having the skill would enable higher possible results

I kind of like that, but I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting. Is this anytime you fail on a skill without ranks? Or is it 1/scene? Or does it require spending a Hero Point, but last for the rest of the scene instead of just one roll?

[Elana]

It's similar to taking Variable 1, Slow, Limited 2 to Skills with <5 ranks, Quirk 3 (only 2 power points). But I guess some might feel that is overpowered too. And that would be a +4 bonus instead of a +5 bonus.

If you allow that you could switch around limitations and quirks and you basicly tell your players that they can buy 2PP for 1PP. At which point you can as well switch to unlimited points.




I kind of like that, but I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting. Is this anytime you fail on a skill without ranks? Or is it 1/scene? Or does it require spending a Hero Point, but last for the rest of the scene instead of just one roll?
I was under the impression that you wanted to get rid of the hero point limitation.
So I wanted to suggest a weaker version that might be okay in most games if done for basicly nothing.
(Of course if such skill check come up a lot, you might want to put on some restrictions. Maybe have a look at the luck advantage and make it 1 rank per scene or something like that)

[Draz74]

I was under the impression that you wanted to get rid of the hero point limitation.

Not necessarily; I just want the hero point expenditure to be worth it if it is required. And I don't think the book's version is.

If the Hero Point is still required, would it be too powerful if the skill got a +5 bonus and a reroll?

[Beleriphon]

Not necessarily; I just want the hero point expenditure to be worth it if it is required. And I don't think the book's version is.

If the Hero Point is still required, would it be too powerful if the skill got a +5 bonus and a reroll?

Remember, a default hero point use is to buy off Fatigue from Extra Effort to get a bonus on a roll, which starts at +2.

[Draz74]

Remember, a default hero point use is to buy off Fatigue from Extra Effort to get a bonus on a roll, which starts at +2.

Does anyone ever use that particular use of Extra Effort? I've never seen it used, it always seemed weaker than other options to me.

[Beleriphon]

Does anyone ever use that particular use of Extra Effort? I've never seen it used, it always seemed weaker than other options to me.

I can be helpful, but the game assumes it is a default usage, and anybody can boost a +2 to a +5 with Extra Effort, but its only for the one turn. Spending a point to get a whole scene worth to any skill seems like a pretty good deal in comparison.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Instead of giving +5 to the roll, let it treat the roll as an automatic total result of 20 (does not count as a natural 20). So essentially it's like Ultimate Effort (Untrained Skills). It's broader than Ultimate Effort, but the fact that it's only for untrained skills means it won't give you massively high totals like Ultimate Effort plus a high base bonus will.

[Draz74]

Instead of giving +5 to the roll, let it treat the roll as an automatic total result of 20 (does not count as a natural 20). So essentially it's like Ultimate Effort (Untrained Skills). It's broader than Ultimate Effort, but the fact that it's only for untrained skills means it won't give you massively high totals like Ultimate Effort plus a high base bonus will.

Initial reaction: that seems pretty elegant! Thanks, Q-D.

[Draz74]

So, I've had an idea for my fix that I go back and forth between thinking is super-elegant, or super-inelegant, or somewhere in between. Taking a poll now on whether people think it's a good tool to include in the fix or not.

The idea is "Synergy Advantages," which have some pretty specific prerequisites, but which you take in negative ranks. So your character sheet would just include "[synergy advantage] -2" in your list of Advantages, to represent getting two Power Points "back" to spend on other things.

Effectively, this is a way of giving a discounted price to traits that go together thematically, but don't currently have any mechanical motivation to be taken together, by making those traits into prerequisites for Synergy Advantages.

Example 1: I would probably get rid of Growth and Shrinking (which have some major cost issues) as separate effects, forcing players who want a big or small character to buy the effects of growth or shrinking normally; but then if I wanted to encourage taking the "whole package" for growth, I could make it marginally cheaper by making a Synergy Advantage called "Big":

1 negative rank Prerequisites: Strength 4 ranks, Stamina 4 ranks, Feature 4 (mass rank increase), Intimidation 2 ranks, Extra: Reach 1: variable descriptor 1 (any Close attack).
2 negative ranks Prerequisites: Strength 8 ranks, Stamina 8 ranks, Feature 8 (mass rank increase), Intimidation 4 ranks, Speed 1 rank, Extra: Reach 2: variable descriptor 1 (any Close attack).
3 negative ranks Prerequisites: Strength 12 ranks, Stamina 12 ranks, Feature 12 (mass rank increase), Intimidation 6 ranks, Speed 1 rank, Extra: Reach 3: variable descriptor 1 (any Close attack).
4 negative ranks Prerequisites: Strength 16 ranks, Stamina 16 ranks, Feature 16 (mass rank increase), Intimidation 8 ranks, Speed 2 ranks, Extra: Reach 4: variable descriptor 1 (any Close attack).
etc.

Example 2: If I get rid of Dexterity as an Ability, and make Sleight of Hand / Vehicles / Ranged Combat into skills that aren't based on any Ability (but must be bought independently), I could still give a slight incentive to characters to be Dexterity-themed by making a Synergy Advantage.

It would have a list of things that are thematically appropriate to dexterous characters, other than Sleight of Hand skill, such as ranks in Ranged Combat, ranks in Vehicles, ranks in Treatment, ranks in Expertise: Video Games, and the Improved Hold advantage (taking the place of Grabbing Finesse, which would no longer exist).

Then, its Prerequisites would look like this:
1 negative rank Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 5 ranks; at least 2 items from the list above.
2 negative ranks Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 8 ranks; at least 3 items from the list above.
3 negative ranks Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 11 ranks; at least 4 items from the list above.
4 negative ranks Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 14 ranks; at least 5 items from the list above.
etc.

What do people think about this whole system? I'm leaning towards "inelegant" at the moment, but I could be persuaded to change my mind. :smallsmile:

[Quellian-dyrae]

I'd advise against it. I often say that most of M&M's biggest issues come from the fact that they didn't go far enough with their "buy the mechanics you want, fluff them how you want" approach (which can alternately be viewed as "pick the fluff you want, support it with mechanics how you want"). There's not really any reason to say that the combination of Sleight of Hand + Vehicles + Ranged Attack is an inherently more worthy mechanical setup to represent hand-eye coordination, or that hand-eye coordination should offer a mechanical discount that other synergistic abilities might not.