All day Summon Monster

[Jack_Simth]

Hello all,

Ran across a gem today and thought I'd share:
Alter Summoned Monster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-summoned-monster):

You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell. The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target. The new creature cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support it. The target can attempt a Will saving throw to negate this effect, but if the target is under your control, it receives no saving throw. Alter summoned monster does not alter the duration of the spell that summoned the target, nor does it affect any additional creatures summoned by the same spell as the target. The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature, and remains affected by all curses, diseases, poisons, and penalties that affected the target, but no other spells or effects carry over. Alter summoned monster is a spell of the same alignment type or types as the creature for which you exchange the target. An eidolon can’t be targeted by this spell.
(Emphasis added)

So... suppose I cast Mount. 2 hours/level. I then cast Alter Summoned Monster on it. I now have any critter from the Summon Monster I or Summon Nature's Ally I list, for the next 2 hours/level. Not overly useful, if itself. So we add Heighten Spell into the mix.

Now I cast Mount as a 9th level spell. I then cast Alter Summoned Monster on it. I now have any critter from the Summon Monster IX or Summon Nature's Ally IX list, for the next 2 hours/level.

If you have a Druid-18 buddy cast a heightened Eagle Aerie for several summoned critters, you can even get more by repeated castings of the 2nd level spell.

Are a half-dozen 14th level Clerics (Trumpet Archon, Summon Monster IX) that stick around all day worth a 9th level spell slot and a half-dozen 2nd level spell slots?

Edit: OOh, Guardian Wasps (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/guardian-wasps/) lasts Days/level!

[stack]

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate)

Guardian Wasps creates a swarm. Alter Summoned Monster targets 1 creature, so that is no-go.

Nerfing enemy summons is nifty. Summoning a group (1d4+1) then swapping them individually appear to work, depending on how you read it. If you summon them with a 9th level spell, then it appears to say you can swap them with something you could summon with a 9th level SM or SNA, but doesn't require you to change all the options. I don't think the spell is well written or balanced.

[Eldariel]

Communal Mount is the default option. All because Alter Summoned Monster is written in a kinda bonkers fashion. Yeah, this is a rather well-known, completely broken "combo".

[unseenmage]

Holy carp! This let's me build my thaumatic machine! Spellcasting spells that cast spells.

Now I just need a rules okay means of remote commanding magic item created summons.

[Jack_Simth]

Holy carp! This let's me build my thaumatic machine! Spellcasting spells that cast spells.

Now I just need a rules okay means of remote commanding magic item created summons.
Dominate Monster, maybe? Or as Summons explicitly follow the caster's orders if they can understand them, integrate a simple Magic Mouth into the (presumed) trap setup. Or just have them items that must be activated (if you can get away with that), in which case, the person activating the items is the effective caster.

[unseenmage]

Dominate Monster, maybe? Or as Summons explicitly follow the caster's orders if they can understand them, integrate a simple Magic Mouth into the (presumed) trap setup. Or just have them items that must be activated (if you can get away with that), in which case, the person activating the items is the effective caster.
Magic Mouth is the current go-to but there's been some doubt as to weather it can convey orders to summons for you.

Illusion magic was considered too, esp if the illusion can bluff or diplomacy.

The goal is to start a chain of spells casting spells with as few items or actual creatures involved as possible.

Something that could lie long forgotten in a tomb and be triggered.

A spell based Rube Goldberg machine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine).

[Jack_Simth]

Magic Mouth is the current go-to but there's been some doubt as to weather it can convey orders to summons for you.

Illusion magic was considered too, esp if the illusion can bluff or diplomacy.

The goal is to start a chain of spells casting spells with as few items or actual creatures involved as possible.

Something that could lie long forgotten in a tomb and be triggered.

A spell based Rube Goldberg machine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine).

Potentially, you could get away with writing on the wall: the alphabet is in one language (very widely known), the actual wording is done phonetically in another (extremely rare) language, with the idea being to get folks who know the alphabet pronouncing it to see what it says.
Part of the writing is a command-word that activates the setup: The reader speaks the command-word, and becomes the effective caster. The rest being instructions which go to the creature that's summoned directly behind the poor sap... which includes reading the wall aloud again, so that first Trumpet Archon from the poor sap trying to figure out what it says by pronouncing everything then becomes the one who triggers the next iteration. And after reading the instructions on that wall aloud, the instructions also include going to a different room, take the leftmost book off the shelf, read it, and follow the instructions contained therein. Naturally, the instructions in the book preclude putting it back until the program ultimately completes, so that each summon gets a slightly different set....

Does that work for you?

[unseenmage]

Potentially, you could get away with writing on the wall: the alphabet is in one language (very widely known), the actual wording is done phonetically in another (extremely rare) language, with the idea being to get folks who know the alphabet pronouncing it to see what it says.
Part of the writing is a command-word that activates the setup: The reader speaks the command-word, and becomes the effective caster. The rest being instructions which go to the creature that's summoned directly behind the poor sap... which includes reading the wall aloud again, so that first Trumpet Archon from the poor sap trying to figure out what it says by pronouncing everything then becomes the one who triggers the next iteration. And after reading the instructions on that wall aloud, the instructions also include going to a different room, take the leftmost book off the shelf, read it, and follow the instructions contained therein. Naturally, the instructions in the book preclude putting it back until the program ultimately completes, so that each summon gets a slightly different set....

Does that work for you?
That's... kind of fantastic. Absolutely perfect really. I'm going to copypasta this to my notes and credit you so that when I eventually finish the write up for the thing for the thing I'll know who to thank.
Thank you!

[Jack_Simth]

That's... kind of fantastic. Absolutely perfect really. I'm going to copypasta this to my notes and credit you so that when I eventually finish the write up for the thing for the thing I'll know who to thank.
Thank you!

Glad to help.

Oh, and theoretically, if the setup stops there, the bloke that started it all has a window in which he can also end it all - by correct counter orders to the first summon (who then orders the second, who orders the third, and so on...). The window lasts up until that first summon in line expires (which may take quite some time - heighten Mount to 9th level, include the use of a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell when supplying the spell for the initial trap, make it caster level 20, and the angels are running around for 80 hours each - just over three days). Whether or not this possibility is desirable depends on what you want to do with the plot.

If you want to remove that option, then the last word on the wall triggers something that is expected to kill the reader (delayed blast fireball, maybe), and the instructions tell the summons not to read the last word.

However: You might want to leave it out as an oversight on the part of the builder. Could make a nice plot option for the solution, once the players figure out what's going on and fight their way to the heart of it all.

Oh yes:
And resetting it is as easy as making sure the instruction manuals include putting the instructions away on the shelf on the right of the room in a particular order, and having one of the final instructions be moving them all back to their starting positions.

[unseenmage]

Glad to help.

Oh, and theoretically, if the setup stops there, the bloke that started it all has a window in which he can also end it all - by correct counter orders to the first summon (who then orders the second, who orders the third, and so on...). The window lasts up until that first summon in line expires (which may take quite some time - heighten Mount to 9th level, include the use of a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell when supplying the spell for the initial trap, make it caster level 20, and the angels are running around for 80 hours each - just over three days). Whether or not this possibility is desirable depends on what you want to do with the plot.

If you want to remove that option, then the last word on the wall triggers something that is expected to kill the reader (delayed blast fireball, maybe), and the instructions tell the summons not to read the last word.

However: You might want to leave it out as an oversight on the part of the builder. Could make a nice plot option for the solution, once the players figure out what's going on and fight their way to the heart of it all.

Oh yes:
And resetting it is as easy as making sure the instruction manuals include putting the instructions away on the shelf on the right of the room in a particular order, and having one of the final instructions be moving them all back to their starting positions.
The names of the times could have accentuated first letters that spell instructions as well one imagines.

Man this idea just gets more and more potential. Stored caches of spell storing items could complicate it further.

Heck, using the summoning variant in the DMG that allows you to summon a specific individual you could theoretically have the summon built for enchanting and have it craft items too.

Summons with high enough spellcasting make this just that much more terrifying.

I like the idea of the intruders catching on that each tier of summons gets stronger the longer they leave the thing go.

[Jack_Simth]

The names of the times could have accentuated first letters that spell instructions as well one imagines.

Man this idea just gets more and more potential. Stored caches of spell storing items could complicate it further.

Heck, using the summoning variant in the DMG that allows you to summon a specific individual you could theoretically have the summon built for enchanting and have it craft items too.

Summons with high enough spellcasting make this just that much more terrifying.

I like the idea of the intruders catching on that each tier of summons gets stronger the longer they leave the thing go.

There's some limitations, and some places you can make it go wonky.

The limitations:
1) There aren't many critters on the Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally list that actually qualify for Craft Wondrous Item and have decent Spellcraft ranks needed for crafting, and those are the only lists you can use for this trick. Cascading up will be hard. Also, you'd pretty much have to have all the materials on-hand, so why didn't you just do that in the first place?
2) Any spells cast by a summon expire when the summon does. That first summon is summoned by an actual person, and has the full duration. However: A spell cast from an item is effectively cast by the user of the item. If that's a summon, then when the first one goes bye-bye, all the spells it cast expire... which include the later summons that it made. Which then turn around and expire the later summons those made. This spell expiration cascade takes out ALL the others. So you do want that first one to be as long of a summon as you can possibly manage. That's looking like about 80 hours with a caster level 20 Mount spell, heightened to 9th, and Greater Rod Extended while it was being put into the item that runs this. Raising caster level by various means of course increases this, but you're looking at "days" to get everything done (whatever's in the books for the actual instructions).

Note that limitation 2 has a workaround: Simulacrum produces an Instant effect (which won't expire) and follows orders. Which means you'll need to figure out a good one-shot item for it (perhaps a Ring of Spell Storing with a Summoner's version of the spell in there).

Going wonky:
1) If the person who triggers things misprounounces a critical word (e.g., replaces Shae for "left" with Shae for "right" on which instruction books to pick up) the setup "engages in poorly defined behavior" (a euphemism in the programming world) when the first summon picks up the instruction book intended for the last summon, and things happen out of order.
2) Data integrity problems. Rocks crack, and water seeps in. Mice and rats get in the strangest places. If some of the books get a bit gnawed or waterlogged, chunks of the instructions are missing, and again, the setup "engages in poorly defined behavior".
3) A program (which those instruction books are, really) is limited by the skill of the programmer, the capabilities of the machine running it, and the data it operates on. If something happens that was not anticipated (e.g., the Summoned Archon operating out of book 86 cannot obtain the Crown Jewels of Faired to use as a material component for a Permanency spell, because a prince of Faired burned them for a resurrection spell a century ago), the system "engages in poorly defined behavior".
4) Summons obey while the spell lasts. After they go home, they're free to do as they will... if one of the summons goes home before the complete program finishes (say, because it got killed by a guard in a place it was raiding for whatever reason), in theory, the creature can take actions based on what it learned while summoned. Even if the occasional death is expected and planned for by the program, this could make things go wonky if that previously-summoned creature recovers in time to get other folks moving on terminating things.

Assuming you're DM'ing, that all of this is possible is not a bug: It's a feature. It means the wizard who was setting things up to take care of his home town in the event of his demise may very well spark a rather nasty war because of this sort of thing.