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View Full Version : Optimization Booming Blade vs TWF for Rogue Swashbuckler



Xor111
2019-02-09, 03:54 AM
I am building a swashbuckler and since basically everyone says Booming Blade is way to go I was curious of the actual DPR in real world.

Admitting that you are not the only melee in the group (then enemies can just stick to your buddy, no move) or that they can very often just take a range weapon, the only thing that can reliably be counted is the booming blade damage when the target does not move. This has an opportunity cost as you can only do one attack and thus only have one chance on triggering Sneak Attack. Using TWF on the other hand uses your bonus action barring some special house rules. Let's say you do not need to take a particular bonus action and are fine with the movement provided by a normal movement, which often does not trigger an OA already due to swashbuckler feature.

Calculation below are done in that context (if numbers don't seem right to me please let me know, I shortly crunched the formula for TWF and would happily be proven wrong).

(please excuse the terrible formatting) For each table the horizontal axis are your character level, and vertical the AC of the target. TWF is calculated without +Dex bonus to your off-hand, and all tables consider a 18 Dex character. BB tables use a rapier, TWF 2 short swords. Green formatting is when TWF or BB is better than the other.

Now edited with Proficiency bonuses - missing the Crit part.
https://s.put.re/hfbotGLH.png

It turns out it is almost never a good idea to use BB unless you have advantage below Lv11, and even then not in all cases. I have calculated as well in another sheet the damage if the target moves, which is then always better than TWF. Unless you want to remember the exact values, the rule of thumb would be to only use BB when you are almost certain that the baddie will want to move OR if you really need the BA to take a Dash for instance. Having advantage changes this somewhat, and the rule would be close to "low AC enemy? use BB, otherwise TWF".

Rukelnikov
2019-02-09, 05:07 AM
Hmmm how did you calced those? I just checked lvl 5 rogue, 18 Dex, BB no move, without advantage this is what I got

22.13
20.95
19.78
18.6
17.43
16.25
15.08
13.9
12.73
11.55
10.38

Xor111
2019-02-09, 05:27 AM
Hmmm how did you calced those? I just checked lvl 5 rogue, 18 Dex, BB no move, without advantage this is what I got

22.13
20.95
19.78
18.6
17.43
16.25
15.08
13.9
12.73
11.55
10.38

Lvl 5 rogue, you do 1d8+4(rapier)+1d8(BB)+3d6(SA), average 23.5.

vs 10AC, you need 6 to hit, that is you hit 0.75 times you roll.

0.75 * 23.5 = 17.6

(Also, I did not calculate crits, so DPR are slightly off, but should be in favor of TWF I assume with more chances to roll - I doubt it's that much of DPR increase as in your calculation intuitively)

Rukelnikov
2019-02-09, 05:34 AM
Lvl 5 rogue, you do 1d8+4(rapier)+1d8(BB)+3d6(SA), average 23.5.

vs 10AC, you need 6 to hit, that is you hit 0.75 times you roll.

0.75 * 23.5 = 17.6

(Also, I did not calculate crits, so DPR are slightly off, but should be in favor of TWF I assume with more chances to roll - I doubt it's that much of DPR increase as in your calculation intuitively)

Ok, you didnt factor in crits, that's the difference, I think you may be right about them favoring TWF over BB, but consider every BB crits carries along sneak dice, while off hand TWF crits only add 3.5 damage if its not the first hit. Tomorrow i'll improve my DPR script to accommodate for sneak attack, and post what i got.

Xor111
2019-02-09, 05:38 AM
Ok, you didnt factor in crits, that's the difference, I think you may be right about them favoring TWF over BB, but consider every BB crits carries along sneak dice, while off hand TWF crits only add 3.5 damage if its not the first hit. Tomorrow i'll improve my DPR script to accommodate for sneak attack, and post what i got.

Sure, would be great if you can update the calculation with crits! thanks!

Rukelnikov
2019-02-09, 05:46 AM
Sure, would be great if you can update the calculation with crits! thanks!

It currently factors crits, but its done for single attacks, so for something like sneak attack where I have to cheack if either attack hits its less friendly (I could roll with advantage for sneak damage alone and it would be similar, but I'd rather do it properly)

Rukelnikov
2019-02-09, 05:53 AM
Lvl 5 rogue, you do 1d8+4(rapier)+1d8(BB)+3d6(SA), average 23.5.

vs 10AC, you need 6 to hit, that is you hit 0.75 times you roll.

0.75 * 23.5 = 17.6

(Also, I did not calculate crits, so DPR are slightly off, but should be in favor of TWF I assume with more chances to roll - I doubt it's that much of DPR increase as in your calculation intuitively)

Btw, I hadnt checked your numbers (sorry I assumed they were ok), but now that I do, I noticed you put you need a 6 to hit AC 10, you actually only need a 3

+4 Dex, +3 Prof = +7

I realized this when I saw your damage vs 20 AC was only 5.88.

Xor111
2019-02-09, 05:54 AM
Btw, I hadnt checked your numbers (sorry I assumed they were ok), but now that I do, I noticed you put you need a 6 to hit AC 10, you actually only need a 3

+4 Dex, +3 Prof = +7

I realized this, when I saw your damage vs 20 AC was only 5.88.

Ah, that's a big facepalm there! Let me edit that in ...

Rukelnikov
2019-02-09, 05:55 AM
Ah, that's a big facepalm there! Let me edit that in ...

Cool, i'll come back to this tomorrow, and maybe improve my script, gonna sleep now, laterz

Appleheart
2019-02-09, 05:56 AM
First off, great breakdown!

While I have never properly done the math to back it up (I am laaaaaaaaaaazy) I have generally always felt that a Rogue would want to use BB unless they MC and pick up Extra Attack somewhere, at which point TWF becomes worthwhile, which your data seems to generally back up.

A personal favorite for that is a Swashbuckler and College of Blades combo character, as that gets you both the second attack and TWF fighting style, along with Cha-based casting, more expertise and skill monkey business, and some great fun and thematic RP.

Xor111
2019-02-09, 06:21 AM
First off, great breakdown!

While I have never properly done the math to back it up (I am laaaaaaaaaaazy) I have generally always felt that a Rogue would want to use BB unless they MC and pick up Extra Attack somewhere, at which point TWF becomes worthwhile, which your data seems to generally back up.

A personal favorite for that is a Swashbuckler and College of Blades combo character, as that gets you both the second attack and TWF fighting style, along with Cha-based casting, more expertise and skill monkey business, and some great fun and thematic RP.

Thanks! I'm currently editing to fix the proficiency issue, it's kinda relaxing on this saturday morning :D

My DM homebrews feats a bit according to a popular homebrew on reddit (talent trees, I can't link with my postcount), which has a half-feat (half an ASI) to allow for TWF to be treated as a single Attack action, so it would favor even more the TWF imo. I like having options though :)

Also, TWF is usually better than BB at low level if the target does not move, unless you have advantage.