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KOLE
2019-02-09, 10:47 PM
Hey everyone,

I follow a youtuber who shares campaign stories from the many tabletops he plays. Most of them are about D&D but occasionally he throws in stories from other systems. Recently he discussed in pretty deep detail his Mutants & Masterminds campaign. I had heard of the system before but it never really piqued my interest. However, when he went into further details it sounded rather exciting. I can really see the appeal of a Super Hero tabletop game.

Looking into Mutant & Masterminds, the system looks good and quite complex, but from what I hear people say, it seems to be heavily inspired by 3.5/pathfinder. The only TTRPG I've ever played is 5e, and I understand the system quite well, but anytime I've tried to dip my toes into the Pathfinder waters the complexity gives me a headache.

Is M&M worthwhile enough to dig in and try to understand it or are there better systems? I've done a little research but none of the other ones I've seen seem quite as good or customizable. What Superhero TTRPG do you recommend and why?

If someone were interested into dipping their toes into M&M, what books would you recommend to get started and which are essential to enjoy the system?

Hackulator
2019-02-09, 10:50 PM
I just discovered M&M 3rd Ed and I'm loving it. I'm currently playing in a game on roll20/DIscord. As far as I can tell, you can get by with just the main rulebook. It is similar to 3.5 in certain ways, but it has a totally different character creation system with no classes and the system for creating powers is very cool and versatile and nothing like anything in 3.5. I would definitely suggest checking it out if you're looking for a superhero RPG.

Max_Killjoy
2019-02-09, 11:19 PM
HERO 5th edition, specifically with the Champions genre supplement.

Koo Rehtorb
2019-02-10, 01:16 AM
I love Masks: A New Generation.

It's very specific for teen superhero coming of age drama though.

Quellian-dyrae
2019-02-10, 02:09 PM
While I haven't played all that many (have read a few more but still not a huge number) M&M easily claims the title of my favorite tabletop system period. While it definitely has its issues, it's extremely flexible and surprisingly well-balanced considering all the things you can do with it. You only really need the core book, and even that you can substitute the SRD (http://www.d20herosrd.com/) for. Most of the supplements as I understand it primarily just give you a bunch of ready-made resources using the existing mechanics; there's very little actually new mechanics in them as far as I know.

It's a fairly crunchy system with a lot of opportunity for tactical depth, but there's not nearly as much mechanical density as say 3.5 and Pathfinder have. This is not to say it's less robust than them. I would say M&M has at least as much design space as either, possibly more, and it is far, far easier to build more "out there" concepts and define exactly the capabilities you want your character to have.

Drakeburn
2019-02-10, 02:41 PM
Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition has a System Reference Document that you can use for free: d20herosrd (https://www.d20herosrd.com/)

Though if you want to get started, the Mutants and Masterminds Deluxe Hero's Handbook or the Basic Hero's Handbook (though I haven't read the latter of the two) are a good place to start from.

What I found incredibly useful in the Deluxe Hero's Handbook is that it includes a Quickstart Character Generator that can really speed up the character building process. For each achetype in the Quickstart Character Generator, the options are broken into blocks that provide sets of ability modifiers, skills, advantages, powers, and defenses for you to pick from. There's also some fluff provided in the blocks that can help with building your character's backstory, as well as motivations at the end of the archetype's section.

The Deluxe Hero's Handbook also includes the basics you need to know for GM'ing as well as two premade adventures that you can run for your friends.

SimonMoon6
2019-02-10, 03:46 PM
My favorite superhero RPG is Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG. (If you plan to seek it out (it's out of print), you would want either the 2nd (preferable) or 3rd edition; if you don't want the licensed characters, you could also get Blood of Heroes (but not the first edition).)

Here are my reasons why:

(1) It is both simple and crunchy (enough).

That is, there is never any doubt about "can I do X or Y"? And yet, everything is simple. Simply compare two numbers or roll dice (every action is handled with a roll of 2d10 and no other dice).

When I say it is simple, I mean it. Even the "hard" powers that many games have difficulty with. Shapechanging powers? Simple. Power stealing/copying/neutralizing? Simple. But nothing is "left to GM discretion" or anything like that. It has the rules you need, but without the "I need to spend five hours reallocating points to figure out if I can change into a horse" or "I need to roll fifty million dice for damage every time Superman punches someone" aspects of fiddly troublesome games like Champions.

(2) It can handle superheroes.

Many superhero games oddly lack this crucial ability. Many games assume you're going to be a normal person and throw all their weight behind all the fiddly bits of stuff that normal people might want to keep track of. This game does not do that. This game easily allows for characters like "pre-Crisis Superman" who can push planets around with no trouble by using a logarithmic scale. And when I say "easily," I mean it. The classic Superman would have a 50 STR. The post-Crisis Superman has a 25 STR. An average person has a 2 STR.

You don't have tons of fiddly bits like "Can Batman do a foot sweep or a nerve pinch? Is Batman proficient with kusami-gari or only with katanas? Does Batman have the Cleave feat?" You don't need that. You just need to know "Batman is good at martial arts and Batman is good with weapons." You'll need a number to say how good (Weaponry skill at 10, Martial Arts skill at 10), but that's as complicated as it gets*. Everybody can try to do a foot sweep. Everybody can try to punch multiple people.

*Technically, there are subskills (like Melee Weaponry, Missile Weaponry, Firearms, etc), so one could be proficient in only one broad category. But you don't have to worry about each individual weapon (Batman found a halberd, can he use it?).

Some people aren't happy that the game doesn't have more of a focus on ordinary people... but why would you play a superhero game if you only care about ordinary people? Play GURPS if you want to play ordinary people; play DC Heroes if you want to play superheroes.

(3) It handles comic book reality with great verisimilitude.

Honestly, combat (and other stuff) really feels like comics. Even the "sometimes Spider-Man beats Firelord when he shouldn't be able to" moments.

I have seen no other game system that easily translates any superhero character (or any character from any genre) into game mechanics as easily and precisely.

-----------------------------

Does it have drawbacks? Yes. Here are two:

(1) Character creation must be closely watched. Players can easily create unbalanced characters. It's probably best if a player describes the sort of character they want, with the GM creating the actual statistics (with player coordination, of course).

(2) One fundamental mechanic needs to be house-ruled, but it's an easy house rule to make. Simply eliminate the rule that powers use their power level both for damage and for their accuracy. (Remove the accuracy part.)

Hackulator
2019-02-10, 10:39 PM
To give an idea of how versatile the M&M system is, I had my two friends create characters for a one shot and we agreed they could be silly. One of my friends decided he wanted to summon swarms of badgers, so he has the ability to summon various types of superpowered members of the mustelid family, including flying badgers, burrowing badgers, otters (water badgers) and fire weasels who run at 2000 mph through walls and explode in clouds of flame.

He can also shoot badgers out of his hands at people to do damage, though these ones disappear when they bite you.

He can also summon a single amalgamated super badger with 4 heads, 1 of each type, each with a different breath weapon.

Malifice
2019-02-11, 01:31 AM
No system has ever really nailed it on its own. I've always found most Supers systems (Hero, Savage Worlds etc) with point buy superpowers or 'design your own' are ripe for abuse by players trying to game the system.

With an excellent DM they can work, but it's always just too easy for a smart player either intentionally (or totally accidentally) to create a PC with power (or powers) that throw the thing out of kilter with tons of points from disadvantages and uber powers.

It requires the DM to really know what he's doing system wise.

If I ever sat down and designed a supers system, I'd likely do a class based system with a 'brick/ tank' class (Hulk, Colossus, Thing, Luke Cage), a 'blaster/ elemental' class (Cyclops, Iron man, Human Torch, Storm, Cyborg), a 'super soldier/ martial artist' class (Daredevil, Punisher, Batman, Wolverine, Black Panther, Spiderman), a 'superguy' class (Jessica Jones, Superman, Captain Marvel, Shazaam etc) and maybe a few others.

You get a basic class with powers you can fluff however you want, plus your 'one special thing' such as super healing (Wolverine), Aquatic buffs (Aquaman), enhanced powers, but with a common and crippling weakness (Superman), or whatever taken from a list with the ability to be creative.

Similar to 5E DnD, SWSE or PF, Id probably have the powers of each 'class' be broken down into talent trees or archetypes to allow further customisation.

Make it a lot easier to get the power levels right and more balanced.

Henchmen would use a minions/ extras rule (so even 1st level Supers could take them down by the dozen), and the System would have a simple built in Power level to enable you to run higher powered campaigns (DC level heroes) from 1st level, in addition to Street level heroes (Marvels Defenders).

Villians would simply select a number of specific powers scaled to 'CR' and then be fluffed by the DM accordingly (Blast level 1, Blast level 2, Blast level 3 etc). Thus they could easily 'grow' in power with the PCs, and the same Power level rules apply to them (letting you create them on the fly if needed, and with a minimum of fuss.

Beleriphon
2019-02-11, 04:49 PM
No system has ever really nailed it on its own. I've always found most Supers systems (Hero, Savage Worlds etc) with point buy superpowers or 'design your own' are ripe for abuse by players trying to game the system.

With an excellent DM they can work, but it's always just too easy for a smart player either intentionally (or totally accidentally) to create a PC with power (or powers) that throw the thing out of kilter with tons of points from disadvantages and uber powers.

It requires the DM to really know what he's doing system wise.

If I ever sat down and designed a supers system, I'd likely do a class based system with a 'brick/ tank' class (Hulk, Colossus, Thing, Luke Cage), a 'blaster/ elemental' class (Cyclops, Iron man, Human Torch, Storm, Cyborg), a 'super soldier/ martial artist' class (Daredevil, Punisher, Batman, Wolverine, Black Panther, Spiderman), a 'superguy' class (Jessica Jones, Superman, Captain Marvel, Shazaam etc) and maybe a few others.

You get a basic class with powers you can fluff however you want, plus your 'one special thing' such as super healing (Wolverine), Aquatic buffs (Aquaman), enhanced powers, but with a common and crippling weakness (Superman), or whatever taken from a list with the ability to be creative.

Similar to 5E DnD, SWSE or PF, Id probably have the powers of each 'class' be broken down into talent trees or archetypes to allow further customisation.

Make it a lot easier to get the power levels right and more balanced.

Henchmen would use a minions/ extras rule (so even 1st level Supers could take them down by the dozen), and the System would have a simple built in Power level to enable you to run higher powered campaigns (DC level heroes) from 1st level, in addition to Street level heroes (Marvels Defenders).

Villians would simply select a number of specific powers scaled to 'CR' and then be fluffed by the DM accordingly (Blast level 1, Blast level 2, Blast level 3 etc). Thus they could easily 'grow' in power with the PCs, and the same Power level rules apply to them (letting you create them on the fly if needed, and with a minimum of fuss.

This is largely how M&M 1st Edition did it. You might want to take a look there.

Max_Killjoy
2019-02-11, 05:11 PM
No system has ever really nailed it on its own. I've always found most Supers systems (Hero, Savage Worlds etc) with point buy superpowers or 'design your own' are ripe for abuse by players trying to game the system.

With an excellent DM they can work, but it's always just too easy for a smart player either intentionally (or totally accidentally) to create a PC with power (or powers) that throw the thing out of kilter with tons of points from disadvantages and uber powers.

It requires the DM to really know what he's doing system wise.

If I ever sat down and designed a supers system, I'd likely do a class based system with a 'brick/ tank' class (Hulk, Colossus, Thing, Luke Cage), a 'blaster/ elemental' class (Cyclops, Iron man, Human Torch, Storm, Cyborg), a 'super soldier/ martial artist' class (Daredevil, Punisher, Batman, Wolverine, Black Panther, Spiderman), a 'superguy' class (Jessica Jones, Superman, Captain Marvel, Shazaam etc) and maybe a few others.

You get a basic class with powers you can fluff however you want, plus your 'one special thing' such as super healing (Wolverine), Aquatic buffs (Aquaman), enhanced powers, but with a common and crippling weakness (Superman), or whatever taken from a list with the ability to be creative.

Similar to 5E DnD, SWSE or PF, Id probably have the powers of each 'class' be broken down into talent trees or archetypes to allow further customisation.

Make it a lot easier to get the power levels right and more balanced.

Henchmen would use a minions/ extras rule (so even 1st level Supers could take them down by the dozen), and the System would have a simple built in Power level to enable you to run higher powered campaigns (DC level heroes) from 1st level, in addition to Street level heroes (Marvels Defenders).

Villians would simply select a number of specific powers scaled to 'CR' and then be fluffed by the DM accordingly (Blast level 1, Blast level 2, Blast level 3 etc). Thus they could easily 'grow' in power with the PCs, and the same Power level rules apply to them (letting you create them on the fly if needed, and with a minimum of fuss.

The problem with anything short of HERO-level customization -- with the system being SFX-agnostic and used to "model" the character and their powers and other abilities underneath the SFX layer -- is that you're left with either trying to provide and put in print a near-infinite number of powers across a vast scale of power, or grossly restricting what sorts of "supers" the players can actually give their characters.

Plus there are A LOT of superheroic characters who don't just break archetypes, they proceed to grind down archetypes, burn the bits, and scatter the ashes to the solar winds.

KOLE
2019-02-11, 06:59 PM
Plus there are A LOT of superheroic characters who don't just break archetypes, they proceed to grind down archetypes, burn the bits, and scatter the ashes to the solar winds.

This is part of what draws me to M&M. I didn’t keep much writing from when I was a kid, but I do have some pages with a roster of superheroes i must have written around 11 or 12, and they’re uh, unconventional to say the least. I’d like a chance to bring them to life.

JoeJ
2019-02-11, 07:14 PM
I'll put in another vote for Mayfair's old DC Heroes. I love how fast combat is, and how easy it is to create villains - once I got familiar with the powers in the rule book I could create a villain's stats literally as fast as I could write them down. Go for 3rd edition, though. Definitely don't get 1st edition unless you are sure that there won't ever be any kind of gadgets in your game!

The only thing about DCH that I really don't like is that it uses the same pool of hero points for doing awesome things in the game and for character advancement. If I were running the game today I'd house rule that into two separate pools.

Milo v3
2019-02-12, 09:25 AM
My favourite superhero systems are Marvel Heroic Roleplaying and Mutants and Masterminds 3e. If I want high crunch and very specific powers then I'll go Mutants and Masterminds for that game, if I want something more accessible, I use Marvel Heroic.

Studoku
2019-02-12, 11:19 AM
The Sentinels of the Multiverse RPG, with the minor caveat that it's not released yet.

Black Jester
2019-02-12, 11:33 AM
GURPS.

Especially using Powers and (obviously) Powers.

First of all, GURPS is the gold standard of RPG design. You can easily upgrade 90% of all RPGs if you replace the game engine with GURPS, or 99% of games that have been written in the current dark age of RPG design that has been the last 7-ish years. It has become so rare that games are actually written by people with competence and ideas instead of buzzwords.

Then, you want a robust and strong system as a core, that can handle a great diversity of powers and opportunities and also act on some sort of an actual balance scale; considering that this is the one genre where it is not just conceivable but intended that a demigod and a genius detective join forces on a regular level, you probably want something for both characters to do and some fields of the game to shine.

Also, the scaling in GURPS works for once. Because the game is written with a very strong notion of human capabilities, it provides a pretty good grounding of what a human is capable of doing and surviving. Without this understanding of human capabilities, any idea of a superhuman character lacks this basic connection ('super to what?') and is therefore inevitably hollow and will never be as satisfying as the understanding of how special your character actually is.

Also, maybe it is my taste in superheroes, but I want decent martial arts rules for my vigilantes. Where is the fun in beating up goons if you have to improvise or blur out the task resolution if you kick somebody in the crotch? Of course, it is childish, but that doesn't mean it ever stops being fun (as long as you are the one kicking).

Jay R
2019-02-12, 12:06 PM
I love Hero System, and can design just about any character with it. But it's arithmetic-heavy during character creation. If this doesn't bother you, it's the best.

I had a friend that didn't like the arithmetic, and so I always built his characters for him (from his ideas). After that, he enjoyed playing just fine.

---------


With an excellent DM they can work, but it's always just too easy for a smart player either intentionally (or totally accidentally) to create a PC with power (or powers) that throw the thing out of kilter with tons of points from disadvantages and uber powers.

A competent DM can handle it. The last Champions game I ran, I included the following rules in the introduction:


I know most of the ways to try to build a character worth much more than the rules intend. If you come up with such a strategy, I will congratulate you on your cleverness and ruthlessly disallow it.

10. I reserve the right to put limitations on the following powers, to prevent game-warping effects: N-Ray Vision, Clairsentience, Desolidification, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Faster than Light Travel. (No exceptions to this rule.)

14. I will add a –1/4 limitation of my own choice to any power of 60 or more active points. I will add a –1/2 limitation to any power of 80 or more active points. I will add limitations adding up to at least –3/4 to any power of 105 or more active points. I will decide on a case-by-case basis how much Limitation I will give any powers much above that level. These limitations will be chosen specifically to keep them fun and valuable, while limiting their ability to screw up my plans, so I will not tell you why I chose them. You may or may not know what this limitation is at the start of play. Limitations I choose are likely to include side effects, gestures, restrainable, Reduced by Range or Reduced Penetration, Gradual Effect, Extra Time, or something else that gives me as GM an opportunity to prevent their use at specific moments for story purposes. (If this rule is your exception, only one power is an exception to it.)

And for any game, there is a solution for the uber-character, which is to design an opponent using the same abilities. You've got a Kryptonian who's too powerful? Send Kryptonian villains after him. [You think it's an accident that Zod, Ursa, and Non were used in the second movie?]

Lord Shark
2019-02-12, 02:33 PM
Masks (although only for a specific sub-genre of supers) and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. I also used to like DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes back in the day.

I've lost interest in supers games that put all their effort into quantifying power levels and power creation. I'm far from averse to crunch, but for a genre that's as gonzo and anything-goes as the typical supers world, I'd rather have a lightweight and flexible game.

Mordar
2019-02-12, 03:15 PM
I'll answer the title of the thread, but I don't think it is helpful to the OP.

FASERIP Marvel Superheroes. All day, every day.

I love the character generation. I was a huge Marvel fan in the mid 80s when the game hit. It isn't subject to player math abuse. Doesn't mean it doesn't have drawbacks (for instance, very static character advancement...you only get better at stuff that you're really bad at, for instance), but it is my absolute favorite.

Have played HERO/Champions, Super World, Villains and Vigilantes, GURPS Supers, Mutants and Masterminds and a homebrew system. Owned a few others - Brave New World, DC Heroes.

All of them were fun, but watch out for the math abuse (Champions, I'm looking at you here...).

- M

Max_Killjoy
2019-02-20, 01:52 PM
Might check this one out, now or when it's actually in print, not sure about details.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-comics-the-roleplaying-game

Mutazoia
2019-02-20, 09:20 PM
I'm going to second (or in this case, third) DC Heroes, and throw in TSR's old Marvel Superheros (FASERIP) as a close second.

Hoplite308
2019-02-21, 12:23 AM
So, good news: my most often-played system is M&M 3e.

The power scaling is a bit odd if you're coming from 5e. Think about the things a Level 20 5e character can do. That's roughly a PL 8 to 10 in M&M, which is your starting character. Any lower than that, the dice don't work out so well. It's great for modeling characters ranging from low superhuman to "overlord of the universe".

My most complicated character was a shape-changing cyborg. I had a base form with all my non-combat skills, then a combat form made entirely of enhanced powers bought as technically removable armor. I then had six alternate combat suits based off of this, giving me a total of eight powersets and nearly eight times the powers of anyone else in the party.

My simplest character is probably my undead juggernaut. Immunities, super-strength, a couple movement and sensing powers, toughness, regeneration, immortality, and I called it a day.

Between those two extremes, I've found that while adding complexity does pay off in terms of power building, the undead juggernaut was just as effective in a fight as the cyborg. The beauty of M&M is that it's forgiving of those who don't want to do complicated things with their characters, while rewarding those who do with versatility. So... I do recommend looking into it, but bite off what you're willing to chew first. Then add something. Then add something else. Then add something again. Take it slow, and you'll get the hang of it without losing your mind.

Beleriphon
2019-02-21, 08:50 AM
As a nod to M&M I once modeled my housecat using it. Guess what, in theory my house cat can kill me (they legitimately could) but by default would lose any grapple contest if I actually tried.

Imbalance
2019-02-21, 11:49 AM
HeroClix isn't an RPG out of the box, but lends very casually to scenario play that can easily build into a campaign. With all stats and abilities tracked by the combat dial, it sets up quickly and challenge depth scales endlessly. Biggest advantage?: There is no greater cast of characters.