What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[grandpheonix]

Hey everyone! I had a thought- Miko kept talking about how she was the strongest paladin. Could you imagine if she never arrived in the throne room EXACTLY when she did? Like, what if she was 5 minutes late, or 10 minutes earlier? Shojo might have lived long enough to control the whole city during the siege.

Now, I know it went the way it did because story demanded it, but has the Giant ever talked about what would happen if it went the other way? And if not, do you have any thoughts and what could have been?

[MReav]

The problem is is that Miko is utterly convinced at this point that Roy is Xykon's agent. So unless they can drill it into her brain that Roy was telling the truth to the extent that Roy could tell the truth, they lose the ability to use the Order.

Though I'm now imagining Shojo ordering a big song and dance involving fake Geas magic.

Roy: Oh thank your twelve gods, they have released myself and my party from Xykon's evil magic and I am no longer serving as his unwitting slave. Now I will submit to your magic users to bind me to your service against my former master.

Spellcaster: geas [really just Magic Aura].



Also, how would Shojo command the army? As far as anyone was concerned, he's been a senile coot

[Teioh]

I don’t think command is the right word, but the other Nobles would be less likely to flee. And I assume this means Miko wouldn’t have messed up Soons plan, as she probably would’ve been killed by Xykon at that point.

So, yeah, Miko kept that plot a rolling

[woweedd]

Yeha, the defense of the city probably would have gone a lot better without Miko ****ing it up. Say what you will about Shojo, but, while Hinjo may be more inspiring, Shojo was better both at corralling the nobles and at appealing to the common man. I'm not sure if they could have TOTALLY repealed the invasion, but it's entirely possible that the hobgoblin's charge is cut off sooner then in the main universe, with the nobles lending their forces AND the deserters not fleeing. And, not to mention, if Redcloak gets bogged down before he can reach the throne room. That changes one thing considerably. Namely, while Xykon will probably still take down the Sapphire Guard easily, without Redcloak giving tactical advice and Turning/Rebuking Undead, the Ghost Martyrs will have him dead-to-rights, quite literally. Once he's out of commision, he'll be stuck back in his hidey-hole, and, if they manage to capture or kill Redcloak...Lights out for Xykon. It's not a total win, The Sapphire Guard are still destroyed utterly, even if a few Resurrections will go a long way towards rebuilding. but re-building will be a lot easier, and The Order can mvo eon to Girard's Gate.

[factotum]

I don't actually think the outcome would have been materially different. We have no evidence that Shojo was a better battle commander than Hinjo--I mean, he's a level 14 Aristocrat, getting into fights was totally not his main thing to do--and even if he *did* manage to keep the nobles on side, that's maybe a few thousand extra troops. Miko herself, most powerful paladin in the Guard or not, is still subject to the same problems that O-Chul pointed out to Haley in strip #417 when being attacked by thousands of hobgoblin mooks. Furthermore, having extra soldiers on the wall wouldn't stop Xykon doing exactly what he did and flying right in to the throne room, and there wouldn't be any extra troops in there because the people guarding it had to all be Sapphire Guard members.

[Teioh]

The biggest difference is, Miko would've been fighting Xykon. She would've died. Soon would come. Miko would be dead and unable to ruin things. Bye bye lich and Supreme Commander.

Combine that with Nobles staying on board, all those troops at sea would've been on the walls, plus their leader would be dead. The likelihood of the goblins having a long-term victory would be vastly reduced.

[paddyfool]

Let's see:
- There'd have been one more medium-high level defender (Miko herself, either in the throne room or on the wall).
- There'd have been a few thousand more troops courtesy of the nobles, and there'd be less infighting in the way of assassination attempts etc.
- Hinjo would probably have still been field commander
- Miko would not have been in position to mess things up again at the end
EDIT: Shojo might not have decided, as Hinjo did, to invite Tsukiko et al to help defend the city.

So overall, I expect this might have swung it.

[woweedd]

I don't actually think the outcome would have been materially different. We have no evidence that Shojo was a better battle commander than Hinjo--I mean, he's a level 14 Aristocrat, getting into fights was totally not his main thing to do--and even if he *did* manage to keep the nobles on side, that's maybe a few thousand extra troops. Miko herself, most powerful paladin in the Guard or not, is still subject to the same problems that O-Chul pointed out to Haley in strip #417 when being attacked by thousands of hobgoblin mooks. Furthermore, having extra soldiers on the wall wouldn't stop Xykon doing exactly what he did and flying right in to the throne room, and there wouldn't be any extra troops in there because the people guarding it had to all be Sapphire Guard members.
No, it wouldn't have. But it'd probably have delayed Redcloak quite a bit, and, without Redcloak Rebuking and giving advice, Xykon's chances of winning against the Ghost Martyrs, who he already would have lost to in canon were it not for Miko's timely intervention, go down drastically.

[Razade]

Do people forget that Xykon was on the ropes? That the Ghost Army had him dead to rights and it was only thanks to Miko destroying the gate gem that Xykon got away? The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room. The Ghost Army would have beaten him if Miko hadn't gone down the path she went down.

The war would have been won without effective commanders on the Goblin side and the threat to the world and the Gates would be put to rest.

[Anymage]

Agreeing with the consensus here. There's a difference between how the main battle would go without all the complications from recently losing Shojo (the practical upshot would be slowing the hobgoblin advance somewhat and enabling more Azuirtes to escape, but not meaningfully changing the end result), and how the Soon vs. Xykon confrontation would have gone if someone hadn't run in and blown the gate.

[Peelee]

The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room.

Eh, not quite. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Reddie clearly didn't think they'd destroy it intentionally. Plus, the ritual takes weeks, IIRC. The army was pretty crucial.

[hroþila]

I don't actually think the outcome would have been materially different. We have no evidence that Shojo was a better battle commander than Hinjo--I mean, he's a level 14 Aristocrat, getting into fights was totally not his main thing to do--and even if he *did* manage to keep the nobles on side, that's maybe a few thousand extra troops. Miko herself, most powerful paladin in the Guard or not, is still subject to the same problems that O-Chul pointed out to Haley in strip #417 when being attacked by thousands of hobgoblin mooks. Furthermore, having extra soldiers on the wall wouldn't stop Xykon doing exactly what he did and flying right in to the throne room, and there wouldn't be any extra troops in there because the people guarding it had to all be Sapphire Guard members.
I think the potential contribution of those noble household troops is not to be sneered at. A few thousand extra troops might make all the difference considering that Azure City only had like 9,000 in the first place. Those household troops might well have had a level advantage on the regular army, too. There's also the issue of morale - a number of Azurite troops broke and ran for it, in no small part because they saw that the nobles weren't contributing. As for the extra troops in the throne room, well, there'd be Miko herself. I imagine she would have been a nice addition to the ghost martyr force.

[Heksefatter]

Let's see:
- There'd have been one more medium-high level defender (Miko herself, either in the throne room or on the wall).
- There'd have been a few thousand more troops courtesy of the nobles, and there'd be less infighting in the way of assassination attempts etc.
- Hinjo would probably have still been field commander
- Miko would not have been in position to mess things up again at the end
EDIT: Shojo might not have decided, as Hinjo did, to invite Tsukiko et al to help defend the city.

So overall, I expect this might have swung it.

This. I should also point out that O-Chul mentioned in strip 417 that Shojo's death and the fact that the reasons for it couldn't be shared with the troops led to severe morale problems.

So I could easily see how this could have turned the situation around.

[Aquillion]

The problem is is that Miko is utterly convinced at this point that Roy is Xykon's agent. So unless they can drill it into her brain that Roy was telling the truth to the extent that Roy could tell the truth, they lose the ability to use the Order.Miko doesn't get a say in that. She might be upset, but Shojo can just hammer her over and over with the same "LAWFUL EVIDENCE" bit he did when she tried to execute Belkar in front of her. Xykon being alive isn't going to prove anything (Shojo knows he's a lich and knows exactly what happened.) Framed in those terms, Shojo insisting on trusting Roy (at least to the point of using him as soldier) is not, itself, going to be enough to make Miko break her oath.

If it does come up, he can also say that he'll have someone watch them closely but that right now the city needs every defender it can get; and that if they try to pull anything they can be charged with it afterwards.

And during the actual fight, Miko is going to be in the throne room anyway and Shojo know this. He has neither the obligation nor any reason to run the rest of his combat plans past her. Outside of her randomly getting (un)lucky and overhearing them scheming, she has no reason to know that Shojo is using the OOTS at all.

[martianmister]

Hinjo would arrest him.

[Snails]

Do people forget that Xykon was on the ropes? That the Ghost Army had him dead to rights and it was only thanks to Miko destroying the gate gem that Xykon got away? The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room. The Ghost Army would have beaten him if Miko hadn't gone down the path she went down.

The war would have been won without effective commanders on the Goblin side and the threat to the world and the Gates would be put to rest.

Yes, the timing says Shojo did not have to do much better to have a chance to utterly defeat Xykon. Redcloak barely arrived in time to save Xykon from outright defeat by the Ghost Martyrs, but only temporarily. Xykon and Redcloak were both on the ropes and needed saving by Miko.

Even few thousand well-armed troops led a capable nobles could have held the breach for a long time, freeing V to help the Order mop up other problems. Shojo not dead could easily have persuaded Miko to not save Xykon, even if meant negotiating with Hinjo to get Miko to be useful somewhere else where she would not create problems.

Perhaps the real problem is killing Xykon at the wrong moment would just alert Redcloak to make a change of plans. But an Azure City victory would be nothing to sneeze at, even if less than permanent.

[BaronOfHell]

I think it is a nice idea that a bastion of good couldn't simply be overrun by team evil via amassing a huge army, and it was mainly because of internal struggles that Azure City fell.

Like someone else mentioned I also think it is a good point about Shojo perhaps not releasing Tsukiko, after all Hinjo being a paladin was probably not as skilled as Shojo when it came to judging character.

It was also mentioned (can't find it now, so can't quote) that Shojo perhaps couldn't get the nobles to join the battle, because a big battle is different from the daily politics of Azure City, and I can't disprove that. It is my opinion though that Shojo is a master manipulator and I wouldn't be surprised if he could pull it off... perhaps by convincing the majority of houses that it was their own idea or something similar.


and The Order can mvo eon to Girard's Gate.

But in your scenario where I understand it as Xykon being defeated, why would the Order continue looking for other gates?

[Dausuul]

Aside from the events in the throne room, I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) is where Shojo's death had the most impact. At the critical moment, with the hobgoblin army charging the breach, most of the defenders abandoned their posts and fled. Their dialog makes it clear that Shojo's absence, and the departure of the nobles, were the deciding factors. The few who stayed were overrun.

Now, to be clear, even if all of the soldiers had stayed, they could not have held the breach for long; Redcloak on his war mammoth would have crushed them. But Hinjo and the surviving members of the Order were racing for the breach at that very moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html). Even a few rounds would have bought enough time for the cavalry to arrive. Hinjo, Haley, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar* together would almost certainly have been able to take down Redcloak, and then it would be the hobgoblins suffering a sudden morale crisis at the defeat of their Supreme Leader.

Plus, as others have pointed out, without Redcloak to help him or Miko to provide a last-minute distraction, Xykon dies in the throne room. And if the Order has slain Redcloak, they now have Xykon's phylactery, so it's curtains for everybody's favorite lich.

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

*Though Belkar would only be able to help if the Order engaged Redcloak before he passed inside the city. It's unlikely Belkar could have convinced Skullsy to attack his own creator.

[woweedd]

Aside from the events in the throne room, I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) is where Shojo's death had the most impact. At the critical moment, with the hobgoblin army charging the breach, most of the defenders abandoned their posts and fled. Their dialog makes it clear that Shojo's absence, and the departure of the nobles, were the deciding factors. The few who stayed were overrun.

Now, to be clear, even if all of the soldiers had stayed, they could not have held the breach for long; Redcloak on his war mammoth would have crushed them. But Hinjo and the surviving members of the Order were racing for the breach at that very moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html). Even a few rounds would have bought enough time for the cavalry to arrive. Hinjo, Haley, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar* together would almost certainly have been able to take down Redcloak, and then it would be the hobgoblins suffering a sudden morale crisis at the defeat of their Supreme Leader.

Plus, as others have pointed out, without Redcloak to help him or Miko to provide a last-minute distraction, Xykon dies in the throne room. And if the Order has slain Redcloak, they now have Xykon's phylactery, so it's curtains for everybody's favorite lich.

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

*Though Belkar would only be able to help if the Order engaged Redcloak before he passed inside the city. It's unlikely Belkar could have convinced Skullsy to attack his own creator.
In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells. Plus, not like he’s the only Cleric of The Dark One.

[understatement]

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells. Plus, not like he’s the only Cleric of The Dark One.

He's probably the highest-level one closest to getting ninths. ("probably" as in the most powerful cleric in this world)

Also, Miko would've been in the throne room and her ghost would've made a beeline for the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. That fight would've been even awesomer.

[Snails]

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

Only sort of. The doom clock gets re-set or at least stopped when there is not immediate threat to the Gates. The Dark One still exists, so it is possible for him to have help. Maybe. It is inconvenient to not have Redcloak around, but it is not the only path forward for Thor.

[Dausuul]

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells.
No, but he's right on the cusp, and almost certainly far ahead of any other goblin cleric.


Only sort of. The doom clock gets re-set or at least stopped when there is not immediate threat to the Gates. The Dark One still exists, so it is possible for him to have help. Maybe. It is inconvenient to not have Redcloak around, but it is not the only path forward for Thor.
Slowed down, not stopped. Nothing made with only three divine colors can hold the Snarl indefinitely. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) Since the Dark One was not involved in creating the gates, they were made with three colors, and are thus doomed to fail. Even if all five gates remained intact, sooner or later the Snarl would burst free.

I suppose, depending on how long the gates could hold, it might have been possible for another high-level cleric of the Dark One to appear, or the Dark One might start answering Loki's chat messages. High-level clerics are rare in OotS-world, though. At one point, Haley expresses doubt whether any 17th-level clerics exist at all, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) even for the gods who have established pantheons and churches dating back to the creation of the world. And if Azure City had survived, the rebuilt Sapphire Guard would have renewed their crusade against the Dark One and his followers.

It's all speculation, of course, but I would bet against another cleric reaching the necessary level before time ran out.

[hroþila]

The thing is, killing Redcloak, thus stripping the Dark One of his main gun, and then suggesting cooperation from an obvious position of power where it would be clear that the Good guys aren't just compromising because they're weak might have a greater chance of succeeding (on paper) than whatever we end up with. And with Redcloak and Xykon gone, there's no rush, so that's a lot of possibilities suddenly opening up even if Redcloak's successor isn't strong enough.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if Redcloak's cooperation, if it is secured, will only be secured after he's more or less defeated, thus creating a very similar scenario.

[Vinyadan]

Would Shojo have been in the throne room, when Xykon got there?

Would Roy have been allowed to get killed by jumping Xykon?

Would the High Priest have summoned something under Shojo's orders?

[Peelee]

Would Shojo have been in the throne room, when Xykon got there?

Would Roy have been allowed to get killed by jumping Xykon?

Would the High Priest have summoned something under Shojo's orders?

No, yes, unknown. Why would Shojo be in the place he knows is the ultimate target, where they have their biggest reinforcements? Why would he be in the middle of the battle like Hinjo, when he's a non-warrior octagenarian, to stop Roy?

[Snails]

Shojo's main contribution would be to direct and keep an eye on the nobles. He is not known to be particularly qualified to direct the army, but there is no particular reason he need be in the throne room to do so, regardless. He does know that the throne room is the real target.

Does Shojo know about the Ghost Martyrs? I was thinking yes, but it is possible he did not.

As for Roy, if Hinjo did not think it necessary to advise Roy to not go Solo Hero, why would we expect Shojo to know better?

[Peelee]

Does Shojo know about the Ghost Martyrs? I was thinking yes, but it is possible he did not.

I don't think it's possible he didn't; he was part of Azure City's ruling family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html), after all, and for a long time before Hinjo would have been told.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The biggest difference is, Miko would've been fighting Xykon. She would've died. Soon would come. Miko would be dead and unable to ruin things. Bye bye lich and Supreme Commander.

Combine that with Nobles staying on board, all those troops at sea would've been on the walls, plus their leader would be dead. The likelihood of the goblins having a long-term victory would be vastly reduced.
More or less. I'd give "the nobles aren't trying to commit a coup" a bit more weight than you did, and mention the possibility that Miko could find some way to screw things up if she was on the front lines, but that's it.



Hinjo would arrest him.
The original post mentioned that Miko simply didn't arrive at the right time to hear the damning words. Since she and Hinjo arrived together, and Hinjo came specifically because Miko asked him to, it's fair to assume that he wouldn't hear any more than she did.
If Miko was instead distracted by something else along the way, but still Hinjo still arrived at the right time to overhear the damning evidence, then things change. With Shojo's arrest, the balance which Azure City was built on would be shaken, if not utterly destroyed. Moreover, Shojo's public crimes would provide a much clearer pretext for everything from ignoring orders to outright rebellion; the coups and politicking which sapped Azure City's strength would be far worse.
I could easily see infighting, desertion, and general chaos leaving this Azure City far weaker than it was in the main comic. (You already get -1 stability when your ruler dies, you don't need to find extra destabilizing factors.) This might end up not having much effect other than the hobgoblin armies suffering fewer casualties, or it might lead to more high-level supporters of Xykon (e.g, the three fakes) making it past the outer defenses, giving Xykon the edge he needed to persevere against the ghost-martyrs. Or maybe the ghost-martyrs are enough to kill Team Evil on their own and the Sapphire Guard (especially Miko) was just holding them back; you've got a lot of flexibility in how you write this fanfic.



Also, how would Shojo command the army? As far as anyone was concerned, he's been a senile coot
And even if he stripped away that act, you have a man who spent forty years* and fourteen levels ruling the city by force of politics and intrigue, not martial prowess or cunning tactics. He'd be better off delegating the command to...basically the group of people who commanded the army in the actual conflict.



As for the extra troops in the throne room, well, there'd be Miko herself.
1. I don't see her being left in the throne room, both because she'd be impatient to smite the forces of darkness and because...well...we already know the Sapphire Guard likes to send her on missions to places where she can't bother them, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) and getting her away from the castle seems like a logical extension of that.
2. Considering how infernally pear-shaped things went after Miko entered the throne room in the actual story...that's probably a good thing.



Miko doesn't get a say in that. She might be upset, but Shojo can just hammer her over and over with the same "LAWFUL EVIDENCE" bit he did when she tried to execute Belkar in front of her. Xykon being alive isn't going to prove anything (Shojo knows he's a lich and knows exactly what happened.) Framed in those terms, Shojo insisting on trusting Roy (at least to the point of using him as soldier) is not, itself, going to be enough to make Miko break her oath.
Let's review how well pointing to the laws of the land worked in the actual comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)...



Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.
Though the vote probably wouldn't be called as quickly, since nobody's destroying all the gates. This might give The Dark One enough time to train a new cleric to 17th level...though he would need to arrange a commando raid to reclaim the Crimson Mantle, or make a new one (if e.g. the Sapphire Guard destroyed it as soon as they got their hands on it).


*Figure calculated by means of...it sounds like Shojo's level. I like assonance.




Plus, the ritual takes weeks, IIRC. The army was pretty crucial.
I was under the impression that the ritual wouldn't take all that long, it just requires lots of preparation (e.g, finding a stable Gate).



But in your scenario where I understand it as Xykon being defeated, why would the Order continue looking for other gates?
More to the point, why would such a prophecy have been given in a world where Xykon would be defeated in Azure City?
I wonder how the Oracle saying "Neither, you moron" would affect the plot. Roy would figure out that Xykon was going for Azure City, and that he'd either be defeated there or get everything he needed. This might prevent needless detours and would definitely fill the Order (and everyone else aware of the prophecy) with the determination needed to make sure it was the first one. Who knows how that could affect things? (Probably to lead them either to victory or a crushing defeat, given ~~the prophecy~~.)



In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells.
He couldn't at the time, but he can now. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)

[Ruck]

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells.

He most certainly is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)

edit: Unless "at this point" refers to the Battle of Azure City; even if it does, Redcloak is, by all indicators, the longest-lived and highest-leveled High Priest of the Dark One that has ever existed, so he's still the best bet for finding such a thing.

[B. Dandelion]

Plus, the ritual takes weeks, IIRC. The army was pretty crucial.
I was under the impression that the ritual wouldn't take all that long, it just requires lots of preparation (e.g, finding a stable Gate).

Xykon says weeks in 416 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html).

:xykon:: The only reason you and I aren't just sneaking in and grabbing the stupid thing is that it can't be moved, and they're likely to get upset if we loiter in their throne room for the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals.

[King of Nowhere]

Do people forget that Xykon was on the ropes? That the Ghost Army had him dead to rights and it was only thanks to Miko destroying the gate gem that Xykon got away? The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room. The Ghost Army would have beaten him if Miko hadn't gone down the path she went down.

The war would have been won without effective commanders on the Goblin side and the threat to the world and the Gates would be put to rest.

On the other hand, redcloak may or may not have been repelled at the walls, but he surely would have been delayed more. So xykon would have been destroied in the throne room, but with redcloak away the philactery would have been lost. And since we know xykon can talk out of the philactery (he did it when he was destroyed by roy), first thing he'd have done after destruction was telling redcloak to gtfo from the battle.

So, azure city may or may not have resisted, the main villains would have taken a beating but would have likely survived to rebuild. Certainly a more favorable outcome, though.

[factotum]

So, azure city may or may not have resisted, the main villains would have taken a beating but would have likely survived to rebuild. Certainly a more favorable outcome, though.

Is it? The most dangerous enemies have escaped, and even if Azure City succeeds in holding off the hobgoblin attack, they're critically weakened for years if not decades to come--easy meat for their other enemies. Meanwhile, once Xykon has regrown himself he teleports over to Girard's pyramid. Now, since Familicide hasn't been cast in this timeline, it's entirely unclear what happens when he gets there. The fact he knows exactly where the pyramid is means most of the illusions hiding it will be useless, and how well will a bunch of illusionists do in a straight-up fight with an epic sorcerer lich and his cleric buddy? We could well end up in a situation where Xykon and Redcloak have all the time in the world to perform their rituals at Girard's Gate while the Order struggle to get across the ocean from the ruins of Azure City.

[woweedd]

Is it? The most dangerous enemies have escaped, and even if Azure City succeeds in holding off the hobgoblin attack, they're critically weakened for years if not decades to come--easy meat for their other enemies. Meanwhile, once Xykon has regrown himself he teleports over to Girard's pyramid. Now, since Familicide hasn't been cast in this timeline, it's entirely unclear what happens when he gets there. The fact he knows exactly where the pyramid is means most of the illusions hiding it will be useless, and how well will a bunch of illusionists do in a straight-up fight with an epic sorcerer lich and his cleric buddy? We could well end up in a situation where Xykon and Redcloak have all the time in the world to perform their rituals at Girard's Gate while the Order struggle to get across the ocean from the ruins of Azure City.
It takes Xykon a few weeks to regenerate. Granted, The Draketooths would have fallen easily before him, given A. Undead are immune to illusions and B. Cleric capable of casting True Seeing. That said, The Order now has access to Shojo’s resources, which, even given a battle, is no small thing, especially since Azure City has allies, who, yes, weren’t much help in canon, but may be more willling to help in a world where Azure City didn’t get decimated. All the Order needs is a Teleport and they’re on their way. And all this is assuming both Xykon and Redcloak survive the battle: no safe assumption.

[RatElemental]

I'd bet a few quatloos that the draketooth clan had non illusion spells they could cast or at least knew of the existence of shadow conjurations. Adding to that, the final double bluff is entirely mundane, Xykon and RC might have fallen for it.

In fact, I'd bet Xykon would blow up the pillar in his anger, which may also destroy the gate given his penchant for overkill.

[dps]

Ok, let's think this through:

Miko wouldn't have killed Shojo, so she wouldn't have fallen.

Shojo probably would have been able to keep at least some of the nobles from bailing before the battle, but without knowing how many troops they could have actually contributed, I'm not sure it would have made all that much of a difference.

Miko would have been sent to the Throne Room with the other non-low levell Paladins. I assume that she would have been affected by the ball with the Symbol of Insanity, but maybe not. Either way, Xykon would have likely been destroyed, and she would have had no reason to destroy the Gate.

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city. Yes, Xykon would have gone back to his phalactery, and might have told Redcloak to bug out, but even if Redcloak himself had left, the army was already within the city--he couldn't just pull them out at that point. And with the city fallen, the question becomes whether or not the castle itself could hold out. It couldn't indefinitely, so I think Hinjo would have made the decision to blow the Gate anyway. So probably the end result wouldn't have changed much. The biggest differences in the long run would have been that O-Chul wouldn't have been captured and wouldn't have had the chance to influence the MitD, and probably Haley and Belkar would have recovered Roy's corpse soon enough to get him raised right away.

[Synesthesy]

Ok, let's think this through:

Miko wouldn't have killed Shojo, so she wouldn't have fallen.

Shojo probably would have been able to keep at least some of the nobles from bailing before the battle, but without knowing how many troops they could have actually contributed, I'm not sure it would have made all that much of a difference.

Miko would have been sent to the Throne Room with the other non-low levell Paladins. I assume that she would have been affected by the ball with the Symbol of Insanity, but maybe not. Either way, Xykon would have likely been destroyed, and she would have had no reason to destroy the Gate.

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city. Yes, Xykon would have gone back to his phalactery, and might have told Redcloak to bug out, but even if Redcloak himself had left, the army was already within the city--he couldn't just pull them out at that point. And with the city fallen, the question becomes whether or not the castle itself could hold out. It couldn't indefinitely, so I think Hinjo would have made the decision to blow the Gate anyway. So probably the end result wouldn't have changed much. The biggest differences in the long run would have been that O-Chul wouldn't have been captured and wouldn't have had the chance to influence the MitD, and probably Haley and Belkar would have recovered Roy's corpse soon enough to get him raised right away.

So my curiosity now is: the Ghost Martyr of the Sapphire Guard would have been locked into the throne room, while around them the city is conquered by Redcloak.... Or could them go Dead Army rampage led by Hinjaragorn? Because in this case, I can see them win the battle...

[factotum]

It takes Xykon a few weeks to regenerate. Granted, The Draketooths would have fallen easily before him, given A. Undead are immune to illusions and B. Cleric capable of casting True Seeing. That said, The Order now has access to Shojo’s resources, which, even given a battle, is no small thing, especially since Azure City has allies, who, yes, weren’t much help in canon, but may be more willling to help in a world where Azure City didn’t get decimated. All the Order needs is a Teleport and they’re on their way. And all this is assuming both Xykon and Redcloak survive the battle: no safe assumption.

No it doesn't? In 3.5 edition, a lich regenerates 1d10 days after being destroyed--that could be a week and a half (which is still not a "few weeks") or it could be the next day. Certainly considerably less time than was occupied with searching for the phylactery in the sewers. As for Xykon surviving the battle, he doesn't have to, as already pointed out, because of the phylactery, and so long as Redcloak escapes before the final assault he's good too.

[Resileaf]

There are two places that Miko could be at this point: In the throne room to die to Xykon with the rest of the paladins (Although she'd probably do more damage to him than O-Chul did), or on the walls since she'd insist that the Order is untrustworthy and she wants to watch them (Hinjo didn't have to stay in the throne room with the rest of the paladins, so it's likely the Miko could also be allowed to stay out of the throne room).

Either place she is, she can turn the tide of battle, either as a ghost-martyr to whack Xykon, or to fight Redcloak when he does his final push. She's already proven to be stronger than Redcloak during their duel at the tower (although part of it could be because he was holding back so they'd have a paladin go back to Azure City), so it's likely that she could stop him with the aid of the rest of the Order. Depending on where she is on the walls, she might even stop the death knight from killing the majority of the soldiers and the general, which would go a long way to keep the breach holding.

Wherever she would be, she'd be a potent weapon for Azure City's defenses.

[dps]

There are two places that Miko could be at this point: In the throne room to die to Xykon with the rest of the paladins (Although she'd probably do more damage to him than O-Chul did), or on the walls since she'd insist that the Order is untrustworthy and she wants to watch them (Hinjo didn't have to stay in the throne room with the rest of the paladins, so it's likely the Miko could also be allowed to stay out of the throne room).

Either place she is, she can turn the tide of battle, either as a ghost-martyr to whack Xykon, or to fight Redcloak when he does his final push. She's already proven to be stronger than Redcloak during their duel at the tower (although part of it could be because he was holding back so they'd have a paladin go back to Azure City), so it's likely that she could stop him with the aid of the rest of the Order. Depending on where she is on the walls, she might even stop the death knight from killing the majority of the soldiers and the general, which would go a long way to keep the breach holding.

Wherever she would be, she'd be a potent weapon for Azure City's defenses.

Actually, if Shojo had still been alive, it's likely that Hinjo would have been in the throne room, too. The reason he wasn't there was because he was in overall charge of the defense of the city

[Resileaf]

Actually, if Shojo had still been alive, it's likely that Hinjo would have been in the throne room, too. The reason he wasn't there was because he was in overall charge of the defense of the city

Hinjo would most likely still be in overall charge of the defenses due to being the best military commander. Shojo is an aristocrat, he doesn't necessarily have a lot of military experience of his own, and he definitely cannot fight. Since half of a battle is morale, the troops need a leader to look up to and there is no better leader than the son of the current leader of the city, valiantly fighting on the front lines.
It's not a coincidence that the troops at the breach deserted when their general went down.

Edit: Also Shojo will probably want to send his heir where he is less likely to die.

[woweedd]

No it doesn't? In 3.5 edition, a lich regenerates 1d10 days after being destroyed--that could be a week and a half (which is still not a "few weeks") or it could be the next day. Certainly considerably less time than was occupied with searching for the phylactery in the sewers. As for Xykon surviving the battle, he doesn't have to, as already pointed out, because of the phylactery, and so long as Redcloak escapes before the final assault he's good too.
Once Xykon's gone, capturing his soul jar shoots up to the top of priority, and i'd be shocked if Shojo doesn't have a plan.

[Aquillion]

Let's review how well pointing to the laws of the land worked in the actual comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)...That was very different, since she'd just heard Shojo declare that he'd been manipulating the courts and lying to her.

Earlier, when she was about to kill Belkar, Shojo was able to talk her down by invoking the laws - the reason it didn't work that time was because now she knew that the person in charge of the laws had no respect for them.

If she says eg. "we'll keep a close eye on Roy so he can't betray us or escape during the battle, and arrest him if and when we have solid evidence, as the laws require", I think she would have (grudgingly) accepted it, just like she accepted that Belkar had the right to a trial. She only completely broke when it was clear that the man who raised her was lying to her the entire time.

[RatElemental]

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city. Yes, Xykon would have gone back to his phalactery, and might have told Redcloak to bug out, but even if Redcloak himself had left, the army was already within the city--he couldn't just pull them out at that point. And with the city fallen, the question becomes whether or not the castle itself could hold out. It couldn't indefinitely, so I think Hinjo would have made the decision to blow the Gate anyway. So probably the end result wouldn't have changed much. The biggest differences in the long run would have been that O-Chul wouldn't have been captured and wouldn't have had the chance to influence the MitD, and probably Haley and Belkar would have recovered Roy's corpse soon enough to get him raised right away.

The thing about ghosts, is that they don't need to sleep, eat, drink or rest. The ghost martyrs definitely could have kept the keep indefinitely from just the hobgoblins, and that is exactly what Soon planned to do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) once Xykon was taken down.

And for that matter, we know that even if Xykon and Redcloak come back, Soon and the remaining martyrs can hold the keep from them too, barring Miko destroying the gate.

[factotum]

Once Xykon's gone, capturing his soul jar shoots up to the top of priority, and i'd be shocked if Shojo doesn't have a plan.

I would be shocked if he *did* have a plan, considering he didn't know Xykon was going to attack any sooner than anyone else did. Furthermore, in the scenario we're talking about, Redcloak quite probably never makes it to the throne room, and when the Ghost-Martyrs kill Xykon he can warn Redcloak (through the phylactery) to leave the field before anyone has a chance to try and capture him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The thing about ghosts, is that they don't need to sleep, eat, drink or rest. The ghost martyrs definitely could have kept the keep indefinitely from just the hobgoblins, and that is exactly what Soon planned to do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) once Xykon was taken down.

And for that matter, we know that even if Xykon and Redcloak come back, Soon and the remaining martyrs can hold the keep from them too, barring Miko destroying the gate.

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

[Fyraltari]

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

The other ghost-martyrs were all banished by this point, so it's possible Soon just wouldn't risk leaving the thing alone. He could not pick it up in this state, could he?

[Resileaf]

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

Miko had suggested that Soon pursue Xykon and Redcloak, but he only protested that he was about to disappear, not that he couldn't leave the throne room, so I assume he could have moved around if he wanted.

[Fyraltari]

Miko had suggested that Soon pursue Xykon and Redcloak, but he only protested that he was about to disappear, not that he couldn't leave the throne room, so I assume he could have moved around if he wanted.

At this time there was no more throne room. The magic that binded him to the Sapphire was gone and he was making an effort to stay and talk with her. It's possible that he couldn't pursue before because he was bound to the Sapphire and he couldn't pusruse after because the magic that binded him was also the one that allowed him to manifest.

If he could leave the throne room, I feel like he would have intervened before Xykon reached it.

[RatElemental]

This one's on me, guys. By 'keep' I meant pretty much just the throne room/gate. Whether or not the castle itself is over run, my point was the hobgoblins wouldn't be securing the gate itself, and neither would RC and Xykon if/when they returned.

[Resileaf]

At this time there was no more throne room. The magic that binded him to the Sapphire was gone and he was making an effort to stay and talk with her. It's possible that he couldn't pursue before because he was bound to the Sapphire and he couldn't pusruse after because the magic that binded him was also the one that allowed him to manifest.

If he could leave the throne room, I feel like he would have intervened before Xykon reached it.

That depends on what the rules are for him to manifest. I imagine he can only appear in times of great need and when the situation is desperate, or perhaps he needs... Well, reinforcements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).

I wouldn't assume that once he appears, he can just go anywhere, I assume that he would work like most ghosts who have a favorite haunt and don't move away from it, but I assume that he can get up to a certain distance from the throne room without instantly poofing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That was very different, since she'd just heard Shojo declare that he'd been manipulating the courts and lying to her.

Earlier, when she was about to kill Belkar, Shojo was able to talk her down by invoking the laws - the reason it didn't work that time was because now she knew that the person in charge of the laws had no respect for them.

If she says eg. "we'll keep a close eye on Roy so he can't betray us or escape during the battle, and arrest him if and when we have solid evidence, as the laws require", I think she would have (grudgingly) accepted it, just like she accepted that Belkar had the right to a trial. She only completely broke when it was clear that the man who raised her was lying to her the entire time.
I'm not convinced that "Work with these guys who you 'know' are traitors working for the enemy" is closer to "Don't kill that guy who you 'know' we're probably going to condemn regardless" than "Listen to the authority figure who you 'know' is a traitor working for the enemy".



Shojo probably would have been able to keep at least some of the nobles from bailing before the battle, but without knowing how many troops they could have actually contributed, I'm not sure it would have made all that much of a difference.
Not as much as the noble houses not near-openly rebelling during the battle would.


Miko would have been sent to the Throne Room with the other non-low levell Paladins. I assume that she would have been affected by the ball with the Symbol of Insanity, but maybe not.
I dunno, does it have any effect on people who are already crazy?


OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city.
Assuming that the actions made by the nobles' soldiers and retainers had no effect, yes.




Is it? The most dangerous enemies have escaped, and even if Azure City succeeds in holding off the hobgoblin attack, they're critically weakened for years if not decades to come--easy meat for their other enemies.
1. What other enemies? The only enemies I can remember coming up in the comic are goblin tribes and themselves, both of which would be weakened after that battle.
2. Azure City would have a lot more high-level characters alive if the Gate didn't blow up. The Sapphire Guard would mostly be gone, but that's just the paladins and whatnot; there are plenty of spellcasters, guards, etc who could hold out until the Sapphire Guard can train some new rookies up to a decent level. (Or recall paladins who were out of town in the hour of need.)


Meanwhile, once Xykon has regrown himself he teleports over to Girard's pyramid. Now, since Familicide hasn't been cast in this timeline, it's entirely unclear what happens when he gets there. The fact he knows exactly where the pyramid is means most of the illusions hiding it will be useless, and how well will a bunch of illusionists do in a straight-up fight with an epic sorcerer lich and his cleric buddy?
Most of the illusions hiding the pyramid will be useless, but there are other illusions guarding the Gate. We know at least one incapacitating illusion (the Corridor of Erised), and we know there were other spells being cast at regular intervals by the Draketooths while they were alive. (Also, even if Xykon has the coordinates, the last few illusions are going to
Also, there are a good number of illusions which can turn the tide of battle, ranging from greater invisibility to phantasmal killer.



It takes Xykon a few weeks to regenerate. Granted, The Draketooths would have fallen easily before him, given A. Undead are immune to illusions and B. Cleric capable of casting True Seeing.
A. Undead aren't immune to illusions. They are immune to mind-affecting effects, and I think intelligent undead are affected even by those. Not all illusions are mind-affecting; I think that's just glamours and maybe shadows. Even if my memory's faulty, we have canonical proof that at least some of the Draketooths' illusions affect mindless creatures. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html)
B. That would be a problem, but the illusions would still slow Xykon down. Not to mention that a return to impotence would be one dispel magic away, and I'd be shocked if an epic-level sorcerer trying to make a perfect defense for an artifact holding the world together wouldn't have considered true seeing.

[dps]

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

What Soon actually said is "Our oaths to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world", which doesn't address at all where they could move or manifest. It's left completely unanswered.

BTW, just noticed that grammatically, it actually should be "Our oaths to defend the Gate were all..."

[factotum]

BTW, just noticed that grammatically, it actually should be "Our oaths to defend the Gate were all..."

I think it's more likely that "Oaths" being plural is the error, since why would they need to take more than one oath to defend the gate? So, "Our oath to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world" makes perfect sense.




1. What other enemies? The only enemies I can remember coming up in the comic are goblin tribes and themselves, both of which would be weakened after that battle.




See the O-Chul prequel story, where Azure City is on the brink of war with another civilisation and the hobgoblins are, at best, a minor distraction.

[Anymage]

If it's just about defending the gate, something that caused two gates to be destroyed would likely lead to a threat against Soon's at some point down the road and would be nice if some epic level ghost paladin could head out and try to stop the threat. I assume that he's not limited to the specific confines of the throne room. Both his parting scene outside its confines and the simple fact that someone plinking arrows from outside the door would be totally safe from so strictly limited ghost mean that such restrictions make no sense. But the ghost martyrs do seem to require an immediate threat to the gate-gem itself in order to activate.

As far as the throne room showdown, I do wonder one point of trivia. Between her level, the boost to saves from being a monk, and having a better Cha than O'Chul (Miko may be obnoxious, but she is shown to use Lay on Hands and you do need a positive charisma modifier to do that), I see her handling the bouncy ball onslaught at least as well as O'Chul did. One moderately leveled paladin almost broke the gate before being paralyzed. Would a sane Miko as a second high level paladin in the room have potentially pulled that off as a reasonable seeming strategic decision, or how would Xykon have confidently stopped two paladins who were good at resilience?

[RatElemental]

As far as the throne room showdown, I do wonder one point of trivia. Between her level, the boost to saves from being a monk, and having a better Cha than O'Chul (Miko may be obnoxious, but she is shown to use Lay on Hands and you do need a positive charisma modifier to do that), I see her handling the bouncy ball onslaught at least as well as O'Chul did. One moderately leveled paladin almost broke the gate before being paralyzed. Would a sane Miko as a second high level paladin in the room have potentially pulled that off as a reasonable seeming strategic decision, or how would Xykon have confidently stopped two paladins who were good at resilience?

What does charisma have to do with this? Wisdom is what builds will saves, not charisma. As for what Xykon would do...

Mass Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPersonMass.htm)

[factotum]

If it's just about defending the gate, something that caused two gates to be destroyed would likely lead to a threat against Soon's at some point down the road and would be nice if some epic level ghost paladin could head out and try to stop the threat.

An epic level paladin who swore an oath not to interfere with the other gates, remember, and even in life he would never have broken such an oath.

[Resileaf]

What does charisma have to do with this? Wisdom is what builds will saves, not charisma. As for what Xykon would do...

Mass Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPersonMass.htm)

Paladins get a bonus on all their saves equal to their charisma bonus.

[dps]

As far as the throne room showdown, I do wonder one point of trivia. Between her level, the boost to saves from being a monk, and having a better Cha than O'Chul (Miko may be obnoxious, but she is shown to use Lay on Hands and you do need a positive charisma modifier to do that), I see her handling the bouncy ball onslaught at least as well as O'Chul did. One moderately leveled paladin almost broke the gate before being paralyzed. Would a sane Miko as a second high level paladin in the room have potentially pulled that off as a reasonable seeming strategic decision, or how would Xykon have confidently stopped two paladins who were good at resilience?

I suppose that you may be right that Miko, like O-Chul, would have been unaffected by the Symbol of Insanity, but I don't think it matters. Some of the other Paladins were unaffected, but were killed by those who were affected. And if she wasn't killed by the other Paladins, she would have probably been killed by Xykon, or paralyzed like O-Chul.

[woweedd]

I suppose that you may be right that Miko, like O-Chul, would have been unaffected by the Symbol of Insanity, but I don't think it matters. Some of the other Paladins were unaffected, but were killed by those who were affected. And if she wasn't killed by the other Paladins, she would have probably been killed by Xykon, or paralyzed like O-Chul.
O-Chul wasn't immune, although his Will save may or may not have been good enough. He wasn't in range at all.

[hroþila]

But Miko should be better equipped than O-Chul to resist the Symbol of Insanity, right?

On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken O-Chul was well equipped to resist the Paralyzing Touch, but bad rolls happen.

[Resileaf]

Whether Miko resisted the symbol or not, she'd have most likely died anyway. She'd probably try to hold off Xykon and the crazed paladins while O-Chul attempted to destroy the gem, and even if she'd be more a speed bump than the rest of the paladins, she can't handle Xykon any more than O-Chul managed to when he stole the phylactery (plus if he actually had to hurry, he'd just use the moderately escapable force cage to imprison her or O-Chul).

[woweedd]

But Miko should be better equipped than O-Chul to resist the Symbol of Insjjnnjjjnjanity, right?

On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken O-Chul was well equipped to resist the Paralyzing Touch, but bad rolls happen.
Higher Charisma*, but lower Wisdom.

*Somehow.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think it's more likely that "Oaths" being plural is the error, since why would they need to take more than one oath to defend the gate?
Because getting every paladin in the Guard's history to take the Oath at the same time would be a logistical nightmare.



See the O-Chul prequel story, where Azure City is on the brink of war with another civilisation and the hobgoblins are, at best, a minor distraction.

Ah. I need to read that prequel at some point...



I suppose that you may be right that Miko, like O-Chul, would have been unaffected by the Symbol of Insanity, but I don't think it matters. Some of the other Paladins were unaffected, but were killed by those who were affected. And if she wasn't killed by the other Paladins, she would have probably been killed by Xykon, or paralyzed like O-Chul.
On one hand, Miko had enough levels on the other paladins that she'd probably survive pretty well against them (especially since they'd be attacking everyone else in a disorganized fashion). On the other hand, Xykon had enough levels on Miko to fix that once most of the insane paladins were killed.



Higher Charisma*, but lower Wisdom.

*Somehow.
Charisma isn't always about being likable, and you can't deny that Miko had a forceful personality.

[woweedd]

Because getting every paladin in the Guard's history to take the Oath at the same time would be a logistical nightmare.


Ah. I need to read that prequel at some point...



On one hand, Miko had enough levels on the other paladins that she'd probably survive pretty well against them (especially since they'd be attacking everyone else in a disorganized fashion). On the other hand, Xykon had enough levels on Miko to fix that once most of the insane paladins were killed.



Charisma isn't always about being likable, and you can't deny that Miko had a forceful personality.

Yeah, I guess, but I always interpreted Wisdom as force of will.

[Mike Havran]

Xykon had quite a bit of luck stopping O-Chul with paralyzing touch, with all that meaty Constitution. With Miko the paladin around (I agree she would remain at the Gate), there is a good chance she would have destroyed the Gate before Soon and other martyrs showed up.

Depending on Xykon's proximity to gate, he might not be even destroyed, but just dismembered like at Girard's gate. Afterwards, it's conceivable that with Castle's destruction, the nobles would panic and start to flee to their fleets (ships would be prepared anyway in case evacuation is needed) and the plot would return to its main flow.

But it would be an enormous pity, since we would miss #449. :smallsmile:

[woweedd]

Xykon had quite a bit of luck stopping O-Chul with paralyzing touch, with all that meaty Constitution. With Miko the paladin around (I agree she would remain at the Gate), there is a good chance she would have destroyed the Gate before Soon and other martyrs showed up.

Depending on Xykon's proximity to gate, he might not be even destroyed, but just dismembered like at Girard's gate. Afterwards, it's conceivable that with Castle's destruction, the nobles would panic and start to flee to their fleets (ships would be prepared anyway in case evacuation is needed) and the plot would return to its main flow.

But it would be an enormous pity, since we would miss #449. :smallsmile:
Would she have survived the initial SOI, though?

[Mike Havran]

Would she have survived the initial SOI, though?

Quite likely, she displayed good saves before, and even some of the lower-level paladins managed to withstand it. If O-Chul was capable to get within an inch of successfully destroying the sapphire, so could she.

[woweedd]

Quite likely, she displayed good saves before, and even some of the lower-level paladins managed to withstand it. If O-Chul was capable to get within an inch of successfully destroying the sapphire, so could she.
It's not the symbol that kills you. It's the horde of your fellow paladins who are now trying to kill you. Most likely, she's one of the people busy holding off the others when O-Chul does his thing, and she dies like they did. That, or Xykon pulls the same trick on her he did on O-Chul. Anyone can bum a save, and i'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that her Fortitude save compares to O-Chul's in the same way a canoe compares to a battleship

[D.One]

It's not the symbol that kills you. It's the horde of your fellow paladins who are now trying to kill you. Most likely, she's one of the people busy holding off the others when O-Chul does his thing, and she dies like they did. That, or Xykon pulls the same trick on her he did on O-Chul. Anyone can bum a save, and i'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that her Fortitude save compares to O-Chul's in the same way a canoe compares to a battleship

I believe the main difference beetween Miko and the others trying to hold off the insane paladins, appart from her higher level, is that she doesn't seem like someone who would be trying to hold them off with maximum care for minimum damage...

[MReav]

I believe the main difference beetween Miko and the others trying to hold off the insane paladins, appart from her higher level, is that she doesn't seem like someone who would be trying to hold them off with maximum care for minimum damage...

Though she is probably the best able to disable her fellow paladins without killing them, given her levels in Monk.

[Mike Havran]

It's not the symbol that kills you. It's the horde of your fellow paladins who are now trying to kill you. Most likely, she's one of the people busy holding off the others when O-Chul does his thing, and she dies like they did. That, or Xykon pulls the same trick on her he did on O-Chul. Anyone can bum a save, and i'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that her Fortitude save compares to O-Chul's in the same way a canoe compares to a battleshipThe canon is that O-Chul managed to pave his way across the insane paladin carnage just in time to fail a save against Xykon's paralysing touch, which prevented him from destroying the gem. Also, in canon, Miko is portrayed to be at least as martially competent as O-Chul, if not more. If she was added to the guarding ranks, smart money is that she would come out of the SoI attack the same way as O-Chul did. And unlike, say, the guy who got an azure Archon in the afterlife, she could also use her advanced mobility from her Monk training to move to the gem more quickly.

[Vinyadan]

The canon is that O-Chul managed to pave his way across the insane paladin carnage just in time to fail a save against Xykon's paralysing touch, which prevented him from destroying the gem. Also, in canon, Miko is portrayed to be at least as martially competent as O-Chul, if not more. If she was added to the guarding ranks, smart money is that she would come out of the SoI attack the same way as O-Chul did. And unlike, say, the guy who got an azure Archon in the afterlife, she could also use her advanced mobility from her Monk training to move to the gem more quickly.

I undestand http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html page 2, last panel as Miko being stronger than both Hinjo and O-Chul (and also Lien). After all, they are talking about subduing her by means of violence, so I assume that she's talking about combat power, not just about how many paladin levels they have.

EDIT: O-Chul confirms that she was the best warrior in the Guard http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html

[dps]

O-Chul wasn't immune, although his Will save may or may not have been good enough. He wasn't in range at all.

I didn't say anything about being immune; I said that O-Chul and some of the other Paladins were unaffected.

[B. Dandelion]

I had the impression that Xykon was just toying with O-Chul by allowing him to get so far. He encouraged O-Chul to make a run for it and didn't attack him or do anything else to stop him until he was within reach of the sapphire. The point was to give him false hope so that Xykon could yank the rug out from underneath him at the last second, but he never really had a chance at all.

[woweedd]

I had the impression that Xykon was just toying with O-Chul by allowing him to get so far. He encouraged O-Chul to make a run for it and didn't attack him or do anything else to stop him until he was within reach of the sapphire. The point was to give him false hope so that Xykon could yank the rug out from underneath him at the last second, but he never really had a chance at all.
i mena, given O-Chul's insane Fortitude, that sound insanely risky and short-sighted..So, yeah, perfectly in keeping with Xykon's MO.

[factotum]

The canon is that O-Chul managed to pave his way across the insane paladin carnage just in time to fail a save against Xykon's paralysing touch, which prevented him from destroying the gem. Also, in canon, Miko is portrayed to be at least as martially competent as O-Chul, if not more. If she was added to the guarding ranks, smart money is that she would come out of the SoI attack the same way as O-Chul did. And unlike, say, the guy who got an azure Archon in the afterlife, she could also use her advanced mobility from her Monk training to move to the gem more quickly.

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.

[RatElemental]

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.

Unless team evil tears through the gate defenses, gets to the final double bluff, and Xykon blows the pillar (and the gate inside of it) up in a fit of rage. In which case we're down to one gate, team evil at the north pole, but without Hel trying to commit voter fraud as a side problem.

[dps]

Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone

Why would you think that?

[BaronOfHell]

I am not certain, but did we actually get a sufficient look at Girard's pyramid defenses to be confident that Team Evil could get through long before The Order arrived?

PS: If Azure City doesn't fall, does The Order actually have to sail the oceans, or would the resources of what is left of Azure City be able to e.g. teleport our heroes or provide some other similar faster means of travel than sailing? I also assume Roy would be resurrected much sooner.

[woweedd]

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys.
Actually, now that I think about it, that raises an interesting question: Could Xykon come back from The Snarl? I men, that thing devours SOULS, not physical bodies, so...

[factotum]

Why would you think that?

Is there a reason to think otherwise? I don't think Redcloak had any plans in advance to found a new goblin state in the ruins of Azure City, he decided to do that once the city was taken. If he never takes the city the thought probably never occurs to him, and the Plan requires him to go after the Gates, not set up new goblin nations.

[Fyraltari]

Shojo may have decided not to keep the living members of the Sapphire Guard inside the throne room and used them against the invading army. That might have tipped the balance in favor of the Azurites too, since in the actual battle they only managed to hit Xykon once or twice.


Is there a reason to think otherwise? I don't think Redcloak had any plans in advance to found a new goblin state in the ruins of Azure City, he decided to do that once the city was taken. If he never takes the city the thought probably never occurs to him, and the Plan requires him to go after the Gates, not set up new goblin nations.

Yeah, but the Azurites owe him a village with thirty years of interests so he probably would have razed the city anyway. And I don't see why it wouldn't occur to him to create Gobbotopia in the same way it occured to him in the comic.

[Vinyadan]

Yes, it's possible that he would destroy the city out of spite, especially since the army would become useless without that gate. Unless that happens before he has breached the walls, and he decides to keep the scrolls for later.

[Mike Havran]

If that actually happened, though, we'd be back in the situation mentioned earlier--Redcloak would be nowhere near the castle when it explodes, and even if Xykon was destroyed in the blast (which is uncertain--after all, O-Chul survived it, and he doesn't have a lich's damage reduction), he'd regenerate from his phylactery in a week and a half or less. Meanwhile, Redcloak would not see the point of pressing the attack when the main objective is gone, so would probably leave the field. Xykon and Redcloak would teleport to Girard's pyramid long before the Order got there, and everything would actually be worse for the good guys. Not necessarilly, since Team Evil would have run into the whole Draketooth clan with their mojos active, and at least some of those had 8th level spells and such. In the meantime, the Order would have been together by the end of the next day.

Also, I would gamble on Redcloak pushing on even after the AC Gate is gone, because he wants AC to be destroyed utterly (let's assume that Xykon is destroyed in explosion, hobgoblins win and start to occupy in the time it takes Xykon to recover). After Xykon regenerates, Redcloak feeds him some bull and convince him to delay their departure (at this point Xykon isn't terribly ardent to finish up).

[Synesthesy]

Actually, now that I think about it, that raises an interesting question: Could Xykon come back from The Snarl? I men, that thing devours SOULS, not physical bodies, so...

But Xykon does have a soul in his body. It just happen to flee to the philactery instead of going to the appropriate afterlife when Xykon's die.


In SoD Xykon tells it in Redcloak's face, putting clear that if Reddie destroy the philactery, he still didn't do anything to Xykon

[woweedd]

But Xykon does have a soul in his body. It just happen to flee to the philactery instead of going to the appropriate afterlife when Xykon's die.


In SoD Xykon tells it in Redcloak's face, putting clear that if Reddie destroy the philactery, he still didn't do anything to Xykon
Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. Could The Snake cut out he middleman, obliterate Xykon's soul, thus not even giving him a chance to retreat to his phalthy?

[Vinyadan]

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. Could The Snake cut out he middleman, obliterate Xykon's soul, thus not even giving him a chance to retreat to his phalthy?

I believe yes.

[GreatWyrmGold]

First off, can we agree that "Gobbotopia" is kind of a dumb name for a nation?


Why would you think that?
That's the wrong question. The right question is, "Since when has the Gate been Redcloak's main objective?" The future capital of Gobbotopia is still there.



Yeah, but the Azurites owe him a village with thirty years of interests so he probably would have razed the city anyway.

Yes, it's possible that he would destroy the city out of spite, especially since the army would become useless without that gate.

Also, I would gamble on Redcloak pushing on even after the AC Gate is gone, because he wants AC to be destroyed utterly...
First off, when people are owed something (with or without interest), they generally expect to receive that something. Second off, Redcloak isn't Xykon; he'd value the long-term strategic value of the city more than whatever catharsis he'd get from smashing it. (Though if Xykon was in a really bad mood, he might value Xykon's catharsis over the strategic value.)



Yeah, I guess, but I always interpreted Wisdom as force of will.
"Force of will" and "forceful personality" are pretty much unrelated. "Force of will" is about being able to resist stuff; a "forceful personality" is one which, at bare minimum, makes an impression on people.
Another way to look at it: Charisma isn't just required for Diplomacy, it's also required for Intimidate. Miko has an intimidating flavor of Charisma, Elan has a diplomatic flavor, and Haley a deceptive flavor.


[spoiler=Jokes at Miko's expense]

I believe the main difference beetween Miko and the others trying to hold off the insane paladins, appart from her higher level, is that she doesn't seem like someone who would be trying to hold them off with maximum care for minimum damage...
"How dare you fail your saving throws? If you were as dedicated to the cause as I, you would have rolled better!"



But Xykon does have a soul in his body. It just happen to flee to the philactery instead of going to the appropriate afterlife when Xykon's die.
1. Phylactery
2. I'm pretty sure we've seen what happens when Xykon's body gets thrown into the Snarl, or at least close to it. I'd give him substantially above-average odds of coming back from that.

[MesiDoomstalker]

2. I'm pretty sure we've seen what happens when Xykon's body gets thrown into the Snarl, or at least close to it. I'd give him substantially above-average odds of coming back from that.

Actually, we see what happens when thrown at an extremely powerful Epic Sigil protecting the Gate that seals the rift to the Snarl. A few steps removed from the Snarl itself.

[Vinyadan]

Miko's Charisma goes into her beauty. Roy at least found her very attractive. Otherwise, she seemed to believe in following her path without looking left or right, so she didn't show any consideration for others beyond the strict requirements of killing bad dudes and saving good/neutral dudes. She probably could have been less grating if she had wanted to, and she could also have been more measured in her assumptions about people (she did have decent wisdom).

[Fyraltari]

First off, can we agree that "Gobbotopia" is kind of a dumb name for a nation?
Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.


First off, when people are owed something (with or without interest), they generally expect to receive that something. Second off, Redcloak isn't Xykon; he'd value the long-term strategic value of the city more than whatever catharsis he'd get from smashing it. (Though if Xykon was in a really bad mood, he might value Xykon's catharsis over the strategic value.)
I was quoting this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html). Attacking Azure City always has a component (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) of revenge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) to him.

[Peelee]

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

[Fyraltari]

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

I mean a great number of places are named after the people who live(d) there in the real world too.

[Resileaf]

I mean a gret number of places are named after the people who live(d) there in the real world too.

Such as the capital of Mexico, which is called Mexico city.
Seems plausible.

[Fyraltari]

Such as the capital of Mexico, which is called Mexico city.
Seems plausible.

Isn't Mexico named after the Mexica, or Aztec as they are called now?

[Peelee]

I mean a great number of places are named after the people who live(d) there in the real world too.

Like Francia, "Frankland?" Or Germania, "people who live over there?" The Romans were the best namers.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.
It's not even an etymological mash-up; "kobalos" and "topos" are both ultimately Greek.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't Mexico named after the Mexica, or Aztec as they are called now?

The Mexica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexica) where indeed one of four different peoples that united to create what eventually was called the Aztec Empire by some European ("Alexander von Humboldt", according to the wiki). What they called the Empire internally is not something I know.

Grey Wolf

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why? "Place of the gob[lins]" covers the idea pretty well.
I'm not saying the name doesn't work or isn't meaningful. It's just dumb. (Kinda like how Montana's state flag (https://www.google.com/search?q=montana+state+flag&safe=off&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS809US809&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzpbWf2rvgAhWmIDQIHbcaD5EQ_AUIDigB&biw=1304&bih=666) works and is meaningful, but is still dumb.) We don't call Europe "Caucasia-topia," do we?
As other people noted, there absolutely are lots of places named after the people who live there, but they're generally a bit more specific...and, well, their names sound cooler than "Gobbo". So sue me.


Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.
Just because lots of the other names in the world are stupid doesn't mean Gobbotopia isn't.



I was quoting this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html). Attacking Azure City always has a component (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) of revenge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) to him.
How does any of this contradict anything I said? Revenge doesn't need to be destroying whatever your target loves, you can just steal it.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not saying the name doesn't work or isn't meaningful. It's just dumb. (Kinda like how Montana's state flag (https://www.google.com/search?q=montana+state+flag&safe=off&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS809US809&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzpbWf2rvgAhWmIDQIHbcaD5EQ_AUIDigB&biw=1304&bih=666) works and is meaningful, but is still dumb.)
If it works and is meaningful, the only reason I can see for you to call it dumb is that you just don't like it. In which case fine, but just say so rather throwing "it's dumb" and excpeting people to agree with you. If you have more reasons to call it dumb, please do present them. Also I see nothing wrong with that flag either.

We don't call Europe "Caucasia-topia," do we?
Whay would we? Causcasus isn't even in Europe.

As other people noted, there absolutely are lots of places named after the people who live there, but they're generally a bit more specific...and, well, their names sound cooler than "Gobbo". So sue me.
Well that's strictly a matter of opinion, then.





How does any of this contradict anything I said? Revenge doesn't need to be destroying whatever your target loves, you can just steal it.
Because you were contradicting replies to the idea that Redcloak would not press on the attack if the Gate was destroyed early on. and Redcloak did destroy Azure City and used the remain to build Gobbotopia.

[zimmerwald1915]

Whay would we? Causcasus isn't even in Europe.
Depends on your definition. Some modern definitions place the area north of the Caucasus water line (that is, "Ciscaucasia" as opposed to "Transcaucasia," or politically, the Russian autonomous republics rather than the independent republics of Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia) in Europe. Herodotus did not, however, include that area in Europe.

Also, the etymology of "Europe" is not clear. What is clear is that it was a geographic expression first, with a group of peoples named after it, rather than the other way around.

[Cazero]

Also, the etymology of "Europe" is not clear. What is clear is that it was a geographic expression first, with a group of peoples named after it, rather than the other way around.
I was going to say it was the name of a mythological woman first, but I got caught up actualy reading that article on wikipedia. Curse you, zim. You got me to educate myself.

[Ruck]

Agreed. It's fine. And in any event, it's formerly Azure City (because blue), near the Sunken Valley which the Order went to some time after the Wooden Forest and...

Gobbotopia is both a perfectly good name and fits the naming conventions of the comic.

If anything, the naming conventions of OotS are so generic that "Goblin City" might be expected. I think "Gobbotopia" sounds better, and also I'd bet Redcloak would want to invoke the idea of "Goblin Utopia."

[GreatWyrmGold]

If it works and is meaningful, the only reason I can see for you to call it dumb is that you just don't like it. In which case fine, but just say so rather throwing "it's dumb" and excpeting people to agree with you. If you have more reasons to call it dumb, please do present them. Also I see nothing wrong with that flag either.
Oh boy, I get to introduce someone to vexillology!
googles vexillology videos
Since we're talking about Montana's state flag, I'd like to first recommend this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAXE4YiocpI) video about state flags. (It also mentions Montana's biggest flag sin at ~4:15, if you want an eight-second explanation of what's wrong with Montana's flag.) I'd also like to recommend this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnv5iKB2hl4) about city flags, focusing on both the good (Chicago, some non-American cities) and the bad (most others, with extra focus on Milwauke). Oh, and then there's this animated bit of a CGP Grey podcast about Liberia's county flags, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PnkNT2q78Y) which doesn't really relate to Montana but it's special. There's plenty of other vexillology videos out there, and I'd recommend looking for some that look interesting to you.
...What were we talking about, again?
Oh, right, Gobbotopia. It's technically functional, the way the Montana state flag is. you can't look at that flag and not know it's Montana. But that doesn't mean it's well-designed; it's just clumsy. Same with Gobbotopia. It just says "We have goblins". There's so much else you could put into that name. It could emphasize/reference their union of goblinoid races, their reverence of The Dark One, their quest to be viewed as equals to other humanoid races. It could reference their economy, their culture, their history. But nope, just goblins.
Think about names in out world. New Zealand's name connects the country to territories in the Old World. The United States of America (and basically any other "United" name) references their history as a group of people who came together as one. "Gobbotopia"..."the people living here are goblins."
Part of the problem is that "goblin" is a genetic trait, while things like "German" or "French" are more cultural. The Federal Republic of Germany is a confederation of nations who united due to their shared German heritage; Gobbotopia is...a place where people live 'cuz they have green skin and pointy teeth?


Whay would we? Causcasus isn't even in Europe.
Because "White-topia" sounded too silly even for an argumentum ad absurdium. But we can go with that if you're caught up in the etymology. We could also call Africa "Black-topia".


Because you were contradicting replies to the idea that Redcloak would not press on the attack if the Gate was destroyed early on. and Redcloak did destroy Azure City and used the remain to build Gobbotopia.
1. I made it clear that I was specifically arguing that Redcloak wouldn't destroy Azure City, because he wanted to conquer it. How you went from that to "GWG is saying Redcloak wouldn't press the attack" is beyond me.
2. Wait, are you talking about the socially-constructed nation of Azure City or the masonry-constructed city of Azure City?

[Synesthesy]

The funny thing is that if you read Gobbotopia in Italian it means Utopia of Hunchbacked, that is kinda funny. And if you are in Turin, it means Juventus Utopia, but in a derogatory way, that is even more funny.

Ok, I go back in my pizza-cave.

[Peelee]

The funny thing is that if you read Gobbotopia in Italian it means Utopia of Hunchbacked, that is kinda funny. And if you are in Turin, it means Juventus Utopia, but in a derogatory way, that is even more funny.

Ok, I go back in my pizza-cave.

Does Italian Gobbotopia have good gobbogool (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=huxlXOyqD87IsQWMt73ADA&q=gabagool&btnK=Google+Search&oq=gobbogool&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i13l10.335.1899..3175...0.0..1.334.1477.3j 5j1j1....2..0....1..gws-wiz.....0..35i39j0i67j0j0i131i20i319j0i10i67j0i20i 319j0i10j0i13i10j0i13i30j35i304i39.ZQY3deySgo4)?

[hroþila]

I don't think "Gobbotopia" is lacking in political narrative - "Goblinoid utopia" conveys quite a bit.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, right, Gobbotopia. It's technically functional, the way the Montana state flag is.
I get the aesthetic point, but comparing a name with a flag disturbs me on a deep level. We should compare flags with flags and names with names. When we do, Gobbotopia comes out far ahead of Montana in terms of flags. Its major sin is the lack of contrast between the background red (of the Crimson Mantle) and bugbear brown, but otherwise it's simple, clean and symbolic. It's also running about even in terms of name: goblin-country v. mountain-country.


Think about names in out world. New Zealand's name connects the country to territories in the Old World.
Which is nonsensical when you think about it. It's not like Captain Cook was Dutch. Incidentally, "Zeeland" just means "sea-land."


The United States of America (and basically any other "United" name) references their history as a group of people who came together as one.
You're comparing apples and oranges again. "America" is the demonym (and it just refers to some guy, not anything about the land or its peoples), while the appellation "United States" refers to the form of government - a federal republic. I'm not sure we actually know Gobbotopia's appellation. It might not have one. Redcloak refers to it as "the sovereign nation of Gobbotopia," but doesn't capitalize "sovereign" and "nation." If he had though, it wouldn't be unprecedented. Neither would not having an appellation.


Because "White-topia" sounded too silly even for an argumentum ad absurdium. But we can go with that if you're caught up in the etymology. We could also call Africa "Black-topia".
We could, indeed. The Greeks called it "Ethiopia," which means something like "country of the burned faces." And we still call a country "Ethiopia" today. But your argument is ahistorical. It's already been pointed out that the use of "Europe" as a place name precedes the use of "Europeans" as "peoples living in Europe." The European peoples were named after the concept of Europe, which distinguished them as well from peoples living outside Europe as any physical traits would (not least because Europe was the dumping-ground for peoples migrating west out of the Eurasian steppe, and ended up with highly varied peoples in any event).

Oh, and it probably shouldn't be forgotten that there is a country on Earth called "Greenland."

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think "Gobbotopia" is lacking in political narrative - "Goblinoid utopia" conveys quite a bit.
That's not what "Gobbotopia" means, though. It means something like "goblin[oid]-place" or "goblin[oid]-country." Which says quite enough on its own, since other countries had hitherto considered goblin[oid] lands terra nullius.

[hroþila]

That's not what "Gobbotopia" means, though. It means something like "goblin[oid]-place" or "goblin[oid]-country." Which says quite enough on its own, since other countries had hitherto considered goblin[oid] lands terra nullius.
I disagree with that interpretation of the name. I don't think a direct derivation from topos is likely, and names in -topia that are meant to evoke "utopia" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-topia) are not uncommon, especially in popular culture (cf. "Zootopia").

[Jasdoif]

"America" is the demonym (and it just refers to some guy, not anything about the land or its peoples), while the appellation "United States" refers to the form of government - a federal republic."Demonym" is the term denoting a person from a particular area (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demonym); the demonym associated with the United States of America is "American".

[Ruck]

That's not what "Gobbotopia" means, though. It means something like "goblin[oid]-place" or "goblin[oid]-country." Which says quite enough on its own, since other countries had hitherto considered goblin[oid] lands terra nullius.


I disagree with that interpretation of the name. I don't think a direct derivation from topos is likely, and names in -topia that are meant to evoke "utopia" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-topia) are not uncommon, especially in popular culture (cf. "Zootopia").

Yeah, same:


If anything, the naming conventions of OotS are so generic that "Goblin City" might be expected. I think "Gobbotopia" sounds better, and also I'd bet Redcloak would want to invoke the idea of "Goblin Utopia."

I know zimmerwald is the best kind of correct here, but I think Redcloak is deliberately invoking the idea of "Goblinoid Utopia" with the name.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Demonym" is the term denoting a person from a particular area (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demonym); the demonym associated with the United States of America is "American".
Whence all this egg on my face?

[zimmerwald1915]

I disagree with that interpretation of the name. I don't think a direct derivation from topos is likely, and names in -topia that are meant to evoke "utopia" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-topia) are not uncommon, especially in popular culture (cf. "Zootopia").
"Zootopia" at least incorporates the whole sound of "utopia" when spoken aloud. Another similar pun I've heard is "ewetopia." "Gobbotopia" is stretching it as far as sounds go. While Redcloak does refer to "utopia" in Start of Darkness, he distinguishes it from self-determined goblin society. It is a thing a self-determined goblin society might attain at some point - or fail at attaining. What he has is the former, and not the latter, though he of course hopes for utopia.

It doesn't much matter, though. A broadly similar point is made either way.

[B. Dandelion]

I always read "Gobbotopia" as "Goblin utopia" too. It struck me as being a quite deluded, grandiose name for a slave-holding theocracy situated directly underneath a giant gaping hole in the sky, but then it emphasizes both how precious it is to Redcloak and how willfully blind he is to things he doesn't want to see.

[Jasdoif]

On the original topic....
Hey everyone! I had a thought- Miko kept talking about how she was the strongest paladin. Could you imagine if she never arrived in the throne room EXACTLY when she did? Like, what if she was 5 minutes late, or 10 minutes earlier? Shojo might have lived long enough to control the whole city during the siege.

Now, I know it went the way it did because story demanded it, but has the Giant ever talked about what would happen if it went the other way? And if not, do you have any thoughts and what could have been?A little, actually.The most directly relevant part is that with Shojo around, he'd know how best to deploy his units and the Order would be "little more than one more band of mercenaries" to him. Whereas Hinjo has no battlefield command experience, and the Order of the Stick has the highest-level characters on his side and they've already fought Xykon once; so they got a lot more autonomy from him.

In the more general sense, a lot is said about making the sides start off evenly matched, since a one-sided battle would be boring; and all the setup and temporary advantages that entailed.
In my estimation, the single adjustment of Miko not murdering Shojo is unlikely to result in an overall improvement; though it's in the realm of possibility.

The living Sapphire Guard was never in a real position to stop Xykon. The addition of Miko and/or Hinjo in the throne room isn't going to change that.
Nearly any positive effects from Shojo's leadership are going to improve the Azurite army. Xykon bypassed the Azurite army, while Redcloak didn't...which means these improvements have the side-effect of increasing the chance of Xykon getting destroyed by ghost-martyr-Soon and company before Redcloak gets anywhere near the throne room; and Redcloak's holy symbol is still Xykon's phylactery at this point in the story, so Xykon will be able to warn Redcloak as soon as he's destroyed. Whether Redcloak retreats or refocuses on securing the city before researching how to deal with the ghost martyrs, Team Evil is still an un-neutralized threat.
On the specific note of the nobles' forces:

The nobles of Azure City have small personal defense forces. Each noble has maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms, at most, plus some casters and maybe ninjas if they lean that way. They use them for self-defense and messing with other nobles. There may be a few dozen nobles total.My estimate (from largely baseless guesses of what vague terms could mean) yields anywhere between six hundred to six thousand people, if Shojo (or Hinjo) could get them all on board.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I get the aesthetic point, but comparing a name with a flag disturbs me on a deep level. We should compare flags with flags and names with names.
I'm not comparing flags with names, I'm comparing the flaws of flags to the flaws of names. Both naming your goblin nation "Gobbotopia" and putting "Montana" on the Montana flag work to explain what you're about, but they lack the elegance or depth of names and flags that I consider to be better-designed.


Which is nonsensical when you think about it. It's not like Captain Cook was Dutch. Incidentally, "Zeeland" just means "sea-land."
All subjective meaning is nonsensical to the right outsider. After all...
googles New Zealand
...while Captain Cook gave New Zealand its English name, he was just Anglicizing its previously-extant Dutch name of Nova Zeelandia. It was, after all, originally discovered (for Europeans) by Dutch explorer Abel Tasman.


You're comparing apples and oranges again. "America" is the demonym (and it just refers to some guy, not anything about the land or its peoples), while the appellation "United States" refers to the form of government - a federal republic.
"Some guy"? Amerigo Vespucci might not be as big of a name as Christopher Columbus or Lewis and Clark today, but he was important in the process of Europeans discovering America; he was, after all, the guy who realized Columbus hadn't gotten to China. He ties directly to the history of the continent. That's why the continent was named America.
And while "United States" is technically just a description of the nation's government, it's also the name most people call the country. (At least more than just call it "America".) That's partly because "America" refers to the continent, but also because the USA's status as a bunch of states that are united was important to the values of its founders and their vision of the USA.
Neither Amerigo Vespucci nor the several states are individually critical to the modern identity of the USA, but they both play key roles in its history.


We could, indeed. The Greeks called it "Ethiopia," which means something like "country of the burned faces." And we still call a country "Ethiopia" today.
I hadn't heard about hat etymology before. The more you know!
The logic behind the name Ethiopia is the same sort of logic behind nations like Zimbabwe and Malawi; they harken back to the pre-colonial cultures of the region. The fact that Ethiopia is known to Ethiopians by the name given to the ancient Ethiopians by the ancient Greeks is unfortunate, but it's the name people know.


But your argument is ahistorical. It's already been pointed out that the use of "Europe" as a place name precedes the use of "Europeans" as "peoples living in Europe"...
Oh, and it probably shouldn't be forgotten that there is a country on Earth called "Greenland."
Point missed. This was never about Europe specifically, or Colorland specifically. This was about me finding the idea of naming a place after the race (as opposed to culture) living there odd.

[Vinyadan]

This was about me finding the idea of naming a place after the race (as opposed to culture) living there odd.

To be fair, the RL concept of race is so recent and so contradictory, that it's very hard to imagine naming a place after it.

But I don't think that Redcloak was thinking in terms of race. I think that, from his point of view, the Goblinoids need to join in Gobbotopia as a people. His dream is that of creating a Goblinoid nation on equal footing to other political entities; or, at least, that's step #1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fair enough.

I guess it's also a casualty of how D&D and other fantasy settings tend to conflate culture and race.

[Aquillion]

Nearly any positive effects from Shojo's leadership are going to improve the Azurite army. Xykon bypassed the Azurite army, while Redcloak didn't...which means these improvements have the side-effect of increasing the chance of Xykon getting destroyed by ghost-martyr-Soon and company before Redcloak gets anywhere near the throne room; and Redcloak's holy symbol is still Xykon's phylactery at this point in the story, so Xykon will be able to warn Redcloak as soon as he's destroyed. Whether Redcloak retreats or refocuses on securing the city before researching how to deal with the ghost martyrs, Team Evil is still an un-neutralized threat.Maybe. On the other hand, with a stronger Azurite army, there is a nonzero chance that Redcloak is captured or killed - he doesn't have plot shields or anything. Keep in mind that Shojo probably knows or suspects that Redcloak carries Xykon's phylactery, too, based on Xykon's survival after Redcloak fled his previous defeat.

[Snails]

I guess it's also a casualty of how D&D and other fantasy settings tend to conflate culture and race.

In days of old, things were simple. We knew what a Dwarf was and what he would do. No need to ask. No need to put a stinkin' class on the character sheet.

[mjasghar]

Whilst redcloak may claim he wants equal standing his actions don’t suggest that - if anything humans are treated worse by the goblins (we never saw goblin slaves in azure city)
Which raises the question that’s mentioned in the spoiler thread about ochul and the prequel

[Kish]

if anything humans are treated worse by the goblins (we never saw goblin slaves in azure city)
On the other hand, we never saw a goblin legion taking a "kill them all down to the smallest children" approach to a peaceful human village. I don't think the difference between "we kill your soldiers and enslave your civilians" and "we kill every last one of you" is nearly as clear-cut in favor of the latter as you seem to.

[mjasghar]

On the other hand, we never saw a goblin legion taking a "kill them all down to the smallest children" approach to a peaceful human village. I don't think the difference between "we kill your soldiers and enslave your civilians" and "we kill every last one of you" is nearly as clear-cut in favor of the latter as you seem to.

They clearly didn’t care if they worked them to death - remember the old man who collapsed?
They only kept them alive to get some work out of them in the short term and for the sadistic torture - whipping for no reason etc.
In the end they showed themselves to still be an evil race - which is why the evil aligned human city was ready to deal with them

[hamishspence]

In the end they showed themselves to still be an evil race - which is why the evil aligned human city was ready to deal with them

While Greysky City was dealing with them early on,

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html

by book 5, 17 nations (including Cliffport, Eugene's own hometown) had recognised them:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html

[Kish]

If you think starting with the concept "an evil race" will bring you anywhere useful for this comic, I suggest you prepare yourself for disappointment.

(As long as that race is "natural," anyway.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Being Eugene's hometown doesn't exactly recommend Cliffport as a beacon of moral rectitude. Nor does the apparent eagerness of its residents to rush to lynch a random kobold. Nor does its modern policing system (with everything that comes with it) or its mercenary mercantilism.

[hamishspence]

But nor is it established as "an evil city" on the same level as Greysky, or the capital of the Empire of Blood.

It makes more sense that it would be Neutral taken overall, rather than Evil.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In days of old, things were simple. We knew what a Dwarf was and what he would do. No need to ask. No need to put a stinkin' class on the character sheet.
...Hoo boy, there's a lot to unpack there...



Whilst redcloak may claim he wants equal standing his actions don’t suggest that - if anything humans are treated worse by the goblins (we never saw goblin slaves in azure city)

They clearly didn’t care if they worked them to death - remember the old man who collapsed?
They only kept them alive to get some work out of them in the short term and for the sadistic torture - whipping for no reason etc.
I tend to treat "destroy entire villages, murdering even children and civilians" and "enslave entire villages, which eventually results in the premature deaths of some" as roughly equal crimes against humanity. Erm, humanoidity?

[mjasghar]

Working someone to death means the premature death of all
And seeing as how this is the same redcloak who gave the Mtid babies to eat I doubt those children left behind in the invasion were alive at that point
But then a lot of people are happy to justify any evil act as long as their favourites can be seen to have had something bad happen to them in the past

[zimmerwald1915]

But then a lot of people are happy to justify any evil act as long as their favourites can be seen to have had something bad happen to them in the past
There are arguments to be made for retribution and vengeance. They tend to assume, however, that the avenger will remain in power forever, or at least that the avengee will never regain power. Some do more than assume, but tailor their vengeance to ensure, insofar as possible, that the avengee never regains power. In doing so, they tend to abandon proportionality as a guideline, and to approach genocide.

To be clear, this is a bad outcome.

[GreatWyrmGold]

But then a lot of people are happy to justify any evil act as long as their favourites can be seen to have had something bad happen to them in the past
I never said that Redcloak isn't evil. I was just disputing the very specific point of "No goblins were enslaved in Azure City, therefore they treated goblins better than Gobbotopia treats humans."

[zimmerwald1915]

I never said that Redcloak isn't evil. I was just disputing the very specific point of "No goblins were enslaved in Azure City, therefore they treated goblins better than Gobbotopia treats humans."
I thought the very specific point you were refuting was "the goblins left some humans alive to be enslaved, therefore they treated humans better than humans treated goblins?"

Not that it matters, since the point is a rejection of a hierarchy of crimes, I just want to be clear on the flow of the conversation.

[woweedd]

Working someone to death means the premature death of all
And seeing as how this is the same redcloak who gave the Mtid babies to eat I doubt those children left behind in the invasion were alive at that point
But then a lot of people are happy to justify any evil act as long as their favourites can be seen to have had something bad happen to them in the past
Two wrongs don't make a right. The Paladins slaughtering Redcloak's village? Evil. Redcloak retaliating by killing their entire population and enslaving the rest? Also Evil. The Goblins are not an Evil race, anymore then humans are.

[Synesthesy]

Two wrongs don't make a right. The Paladins slaughtering Redcloak's village? Evil. Redcloak retaliating by killing their entire population and enslaving the rest? Also Evil. The Goblins are not an Evil race, anymore then humans are.

Yes, from our external point of view. But from an in-universe point of view, you have to explain why lawfull GOOD paladin did that to Redcloak's family.

This is the difference, and the point of it all: both the Sapphire Guard and Gobbotopia did very bad thing to the opposite race, but the goblins are labelled as "evil" for enslaving humans, while Azure City is labelled as "good" while attack unarmed goblins' women and children. In other words: the universe is racist, and this because the Gods who created it were unfair.

Some people think that this is a justification for Redcloak's action, some people think that it is not. This is totally uncorrelated with our liking or disliking of Reddie.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, from our external point of view. But from an in-universe point of view, you have to explain why lawful GOOD paladin did that to Redcloak's family.

Because good doesn't mean nice, and because paladins that thought that slaughtering children was good were a) quickly disabused of that notion and ii) not paladins anymore.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

because paladins that thought that slaughtering children was good were a) quickly disabused of that notion and ii) not paladins anymore.

Grey Wolf
That is not certain. We have it from Mr. Burlew that those paladins who committed war crimes during the raid on Redcloak's village might have Fallen. They also might not have.

[Kish]

Sure, you can get that from what he said...

...if you parse it on a purely semantic level and ignore nuance and implication.

You can get a lot of wacky things from things he's said that way, actually.

[zimmerwald1915]

Sure, you can get that from what he said...

...if you parse it on a purely semantic level and ignore nuance and implication.
I believe that statement was made after the statement expressing incredulity at having to make the argument against genocide. The lesson of the latter would seem to be "eschew nuance and implication for the anvil if I want to make a point."

[woweedd]

Yes, from our external point of view. But from an in-universe point of view, you have to explain why lawfull GOOD paladin did that to Redcloak's family.

This is the difference, and the point of it all: both the Sapphire Guard and Gobbotopia did very bad thing to the opposite race, but the goblins are labelled as "evil" for enslaving humans, while Azure City is labelled as "good" while attack unarmed goblins' women and children. In other words: the universe is racist, and this because the Gods who created it were unfair.

Some people think that this is a justification for Redcloak's action, some people think that it is not. This is totally uncorrelated with our liking or disliking of Reddie.
Um...No, it isn't. the Gods don't control the Forces of Good And Evil. Quite a few Gods ARE Evil, after all, even though, like humans, they pretty all think of themselves as Good. If the Gods dictated Alignment, there would be no Evil gods. We have it on word from Rich that the Paladins who slaughtered Goblin children DID Fall for it, not that Redcloak would know, or, indeed, care. I doubt he considers losing your magic horse an appropriate punishment for slaughtering his family in front of him.

[Kish]

I believe that statement was made after the statement expressing incredulity at having to make the argument against genocide. The lesson of the latter would seem to be "eschew nuance and implication for the anvil if I want to make a point."
If you like. Personally, I find "I should accept that some people will take whatever they want to from my writing, and only worry about making a point to people who are paying attention to my writing and not merely to the assumptions they bring to it" is a better lesson.

How many people will go to their graves still thinking Draco Malfoy was intended to elicit some emotion more positive than, very-eventually, pity, do you suppose?

[woweedd]

If you like. Personally, I find "I should accept that some people will take whatever they want to from my writing, and only worry about making a point to people who are paying attention to my writing and not merely to the assumptions they bring to it" is a better lesson.

How many people will go to their graves still thinking Draco Malfoy was intended to elicit some emotion more positive than, very-eventually, pity, do you suppose?
I mean, I always felt pity for him, but only in the sense of the fact that he's basically been raised, and brainwashed into being a happy member of, a Neo-Fascist cult.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yes, from our external point of view. But from an in-universe point of view, you have to explain why lawfull GOOD paladin did that to Redcloak's family.

This is the difference, and the point of it all: both the Sapphire Guard and Gobbotopia did very bad thing to the opposite race, but the goblins are labelled as "evil" for enslaving humans, while Azure City is labelled as "good" while attack unarmed goblins' women and children. In other words: the universe is racist, and this because the Gods who created it were unfair.
The story of D&D campaigns in a nutshell. The goblins attacking human settlements and stealing some stuff are wicked raiders; the humans destroying goblin settlements and stealing everything not nailed down are heroic adventurers. Most adventures try to justify the adventurers' violence by not including noncombatants in any goblin settlements that feature in an adventure, and by increasing the vileness of the goblin raiders, but that's still not nearly as pure-hearted as it's usually treated.
...Which is why Rich made a story where goblins recognized their treatment, and reduced the strength of any justifications that the adventurers could use.



I mean, I always felt pity for him, but only in the sense of the fact that he's basically been raised, and brainwashed into being a happy member of, a Neo-Fascist cult.
Well, "happy" until he actually joined. After all, by the time JK Rowling was writing those last books, she must have known that some kids reading her books would be young Dracos...

[factotum]

...Hoo boy, there's a lot to unpack there...

No, sounded quite simple to me? He's talking about the original Basic and Expert D&D sets, where Dwarf, Halfling and Elf were essentially all classes you could play as--there was no separation of class and race in those sets.

[martianmister]

Draco was a spoiled and entitled kid, he only became someone to pity in the last two books.

[hamishspence]

In book 6, Dumbledore makes the point that, by turning Dudley into a spoiled and entitled kid, the Dursleys are inflicting "appalling damage" on him.

And it's clear that Dudley has Dumbledore's pity.

So, in that respect, a person can become pitiable before they actually start to suffer.

[woweedd]

In book 6, Dumbledore makes the point that, by turning Dudley into a spoiled and entitled kid, the Dursleys are inflicting "appalling damage" on him.

And it's clear that Dudley has Dumbledore's pity.

So, in that respect, a person can become pitiable before they actually start to suffer.
Actually, this brings up something interesting Rowling has confirmed. See, Dementors feed on your bad memories, driving you into depression by dredging up the worst moments of your life. However, Dudley is a spoiled brat who has experienced no real hardship to speak of in his life. Harry's inner monologue actually does wonder what they would show someone like Dudley, who has no bad memories to work off of. Well, Rowling has confirmed what he saw during their encounter. Apparently, if you don't have any bad memories to work from, The Dementors instead take your happy memories, and twist them to be negative. In the case of Dudley, they showed him how much of a spoiled bully he really was. It's no coincidence that, after that incident, Dudley suddenly gets a lot nicer to Harry. The Dementors helped him realize how much of a jerk he was. On a related note, I love how The Dursleys and the Malfoys kinda parallel each other. They're both families of close-minded bigots who hate anything that's different from them, and, though McGonagall describes The Dursleys as "the worst kind of Muggles", one could easily imagine she'd describe The Malfoys as "the worst kind of Wizards". The Dursleys hate Wizards just as much as The Malfoys hate Muggles, and even the individual family members mirror each other. You have the son, Draco/Dudley, who is a spoiled brat raised in an awful family who steadily becomes better and redeems himself. Narcissa/Petunia, the mother of the family, who is the product of sibling rivalry, and, though neither are good people, they still end up saving Harry in their own ways, and it's clear that they recognize the danger Voldemort poses to their family. And, finally, you have Vernon/Lucius, the father, who is, by far, the most evil member of the family, with no redeeming characteristics, save, perhaps, loyalty to his wife and son.

[Aveline]

That is an interesting analysis. I did notice how Dudley suddenly turned reasonable in the face of helplessness (against dementors), but I hadn't considered it that deeply. Thank you, woweedd.

[D.One]

Actually, this brings up something interesting Rowling has confirmed. See, Dementors feed on your bad memories, driving you into depression by dredging up the worst moments of your life. However, Dudley is a spoiled brat who has experienced no real hardship to speak of in his life. Harry's inner monologue actually does wonder what they would show someone like Dudley, who has no bad memories to work off of. Well, Rowling has confirmed what he saw during their encounter. Apparently, if you don't have any bad memories to work from, The Dementors instead take your happy memories, and twist them to be negative. In the case of Dudley, they showed him how much of a spoiled bully he really was. It's no coincidence that, after that incident, Dudley suddenly gets a lot nicer to Harry. The Dementors helped him realize how much of a jerk he was. On a related note, I love how The Dursleys and the Malfoys kinda parallel each other. They're both families of close-minded bigots who hate anything that's different from them, and, though McGonagall describes The Dursleys as "the worst kind of Muggles", one could easily imagine she'd describe The Malfoys as "the worst kind of Wizards". The Dursleys hate Wizards just as much as The Malfoys hate Muggles, and even the individual family members mirror each other. You have the son, Draco/Dudley, who is a spoiled brat raised in an awful family who steadily becomes better and redeems himself. Narcissa/Petunia, the mother of the family, who is the product of sibling rivalry, and, though neither are good people, they still end up saving Harry in their own ways, and it's clear that they recognize the danger Voldemort poses to their family. And, finally, you have Vernon/Lucius, the father, who is, by far, the most evil member of the family, with no redeeming characteristics, save, perhaps, loyalty to his wife and son.

Nice analysis. I wonder which parallels we may draw beetween characters is OotS.

[GreatWyrmGold]

No, sounded quite simple to me? He's talking about the original Basic and Expert D&D sets, where Dwarf, Halfling and Elf were essentially all classes you could play as--there was no separation of class and race in those sets.
Michael Bay's Transformers is just a story of giant alien robots punching each other, but it still has a lot to unpack (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJGOq3JclTH8J73o2Z4VMaSYZDNG3xeZ7). In the case of Snails's statement...equating race with class is equivalent to equating race with profession/skillset, an equivocation which has caused no end of suffering. Snails's post evoked a sense of nostalgia for times when putting a nonhuman race on your character sheet meant you knew what class they had, which I assume was meant satirically, which is part of why I didn't want to make a big deal out of drawing attention to the unfortunate implications.
Yeah, it's a joke, and yeah, it's a small thing, but it's learning to notice the small things helps us understand the big things, and harm perpetrated by jokes (however small or unintentional) makes it just a bit easier to normalize it. That's part of why Rich's story focuses on problems in the OotS world that parallel problems in our world—most obviously, the systemic injustices which put some races above others, and which perpetuate themselves despite no longer being actively supported from the outside.

[Aquillion]

I tend to treat "destroy entire villages, murdering even children and civilians" and "enslave entire villages, which eventually results in the premature deaths of some" as roughly equal crimes against humanity. Erm, humanoidity?I haven't read all the supplemental materials, so I may be missing some vital context that shows the Paladins behaving worse than this, but my understanding is that in terms of overarching policy, they do not murder goblins indiscriminately. Individual soldiers and Paladins sometimes go off the rails, but contrary to what Redcloak implies, it's not Azure City policy to attack goblins simply for the sake of attacking goblins. Redcloak's village was attacked because it was harboring the Crimson Mantle, an artifact intended to endanger the entire world.

They attack specific villages where the bearer of the Crimson Mantle is known to have appeared because they believe (correctly) that the Crimson Mantle and anyone who bears it is a threat to the world itself. This doesn't quite justify the extreme lengths they went to in wiping his village out, but it's worth pointing out that their belief that even a single goblin escaping with the mantle could endanger the entire world and threaten the agonizing death of everyone everywhere was, in fact, entirely correct (since it's what happened.)

A lot of what they did in the process of dealing with that was pretty terrible, and there's still a lot of racist paladins or Azure City soldiers, but I don't think it's fair to compare that to human slavery, which seems to be institutionalized.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Individual soldiers and Paladins sometimes go off the rails, but contrary to what Redcloak implies, it's not Azure City policy to attack goblins simply for the sake of attacking goblins.

It's both better and worse. Azure City Policy was to not tell the paladins what they coul and could not do, so Azure City (or, more specifically, Shojo) was absolutely responsible for the actions of the paladins, even when they went off the rails, because they had given them free rein. But once this obvious abuse was brought to the attention of Shojo, he took steps to curtail it. Of course, by then the damage had been done.

We never do get direct knowledge of what the Paladin Code of Conduct for these raids is, but until the end of "How the Paladin got his scar" it was clearly merely borderline good - thus why every so often, a paladin stepped over. For example, they were attacking goblinoid settlements on the basis that they had magical protections against scrying, under the general assumption that the only thing goblinoids would want to hide had to be the crimson cloak. If you are thinking "that's a big gaping hole in logic", then yes, that is indeed the point.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

The destruction of Redcloak's village had nothing to do with the Crimson Mantle. The paladins deliberately, knowingly left their target's cloak lying on the ground--something Gin-Jun castigates himself for later after learning that it's an artifact. There was no "if any of them get away they threaten reality"--only "that one threatens reality, and since we're in the area and already have our swords drawn we have no reason not to clean up all these other vermin."

Rich also said that Azure City had a decades-long history of exterminating entire villages (plural) of goblinoids and other humanoids; that may have been retconned into only what was shown in How the Paladin Got His Scar, I don't know.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Rich also said that Azure City had a decades-long history of exterminating entire villages (plural) of goblinoids and other humanoids; that may have been retconned into only what was shown in How the Paladin Got His Scar, I don't know.[/spoiler]
Not impossible. I seem to recall some Word of God that Hel only got dwarf souls because only dwarves had such a strict code of honor, which was retconned when Hel's possession of dwarven souls became an important plot point.

[martianmister]

Not impossible. I seem to recall some Word of God that Hel only got dwarf souls because only dwarves had such a strict code of honor, which was retconned when Hel's possession of dwarven souls became an important plot point.

I completely forgot about that. :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I seem to recall some Word of God that Hel only got dwarf souls because only dwarves had such a strict code of honor

[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

[martianmister]

[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13053125&postcount=20

[Grey_Wolf_c]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13053125&postcount=20

I disagree with the interpretation that says it is a retcon, but on the other hand, I can now parse the original thought.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I guess a way to reconcile that quote with the canon would be to assume that Hel still gets to claim the souls of dishonoured northerners on top of getting the dwarves by default, but it just so happens no one (or very few people) who isn't a dwarf believes in that honor system, so in practice she only gets the dwarves. So there'd be an almost perfect overlap between her two sources of souls: dwarves and the dishonoured.

There might be some actual text in the comic that contradicts this - I haven't re-read the current arc in full.

[Peelee]

I disagree with the interpretation that says it is a retcon

Grey Wolf

Seconded, but I'll take it a step further. That comment was made on 4/11/2012, so the current strip at the time was 848 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html). I would be full-on flabberfasted if the Hel subplot wasn't entirely fleshed out by then and he ret-conned it almost as soon as it was time for that whole thing to come out.

[Jasdoif]

Seconded, but I'll take it a step further. That comment was made on 4/11/2012, so the current strip at the time was 848 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html). I would be full-on flabberfasted if the Hel subplot wasn't entirely fleshed out by then and he ret-conned it almost as soon as it was time for that whole thing to come out.Especially considering the comic 111 strips before that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I guess a way to reconcile that quote with the canon would be to assume that Hel still gets to claim the souls of dishonoured northerners on top of getting the dwarves by default, but it just so happens no one (or very few people) who isn't a dwarf believes in that honor system, so in practice she only gets the dwarves. So there'd be an almost perfect overlap between her two sources of souls: dwarves and the dishonoured.

There might be some actual text in the comic that contradicts this - I haven't re-read the current arc in full.

IMnpHO, it's the other way round: only the dwarves believe in a code of honour because they are the only ones that need it. They would go to Hel unless they are honorable, so the moment they were informed of this by Thor, they developed a code of honor that'd get them out of Hel (a code that, I need not remind you, includes picking fights with conifers and drinking yourself to death).

Haley, who as a human will not have survive Hel's gauntlet, need not have a belief on any system of honor to save her - but if she did, and believed she had not been honorable, she could have ended up in Hel who, on top of everything else like undead, is also the goddess of the dishonored dead. This is no different from Roy ending up at the mountain because he thought himself LG.

It is an open question whether they'd stay there, but they definitely first go to where they believe they belong.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

I imagine a human who by some strange circumstance was raised by dwarves might subscribe to the honor system strongly enough to end up in Hel if they failed to live up to it.

[Keltest]

While I think its obvious that Rich was trying to provide a plausible answer without giving away plot details that hadn't happened yet, I agree that its entirely possible to parse it as "the dwarves are screwed either way, but its possible to opt into the system as a non-dwarf if for some reason you felt the need to."

[woweedd]

I imagine a human who by some strange circumstance was raised by dwarves might subscribe to the honor system strongly enough to end up in Hel if they failed to live up to it.
I would weep for Captain Carrot, but then I remember that, if Carrot isn't honorable, then a honorable person has literally never existed.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeha, the defense of the city probably would have gone a lot better without Miko ****ing it up. Say what you will about Shojo, but, while Hinjo may be more inspiring, Shojo was better both at corralling the nobles and at appealing to the common man.
It's not entirely clear that Shojo being in prison for reasons that can't be publicly explained wouldn't have had similar effects, and while you can certainly hold Miko responsible for killing Shojo, you can't blame her for the timing of her arrival at the throne room.

Also, as recent strips have made pretty clear, Shojo could have been back in action 15 minutes later if he'd wanted to. To the extent that Azure City suffered from his absence, that was essentially his own decision.


The biggest difference is, Miko would've been fighting Xykon. She would've died. Soon would come. Miko would be dead and unable to ruin things. Bye bye lich and Supreme Commander.
Oh, I don't know. Conceivably the high priest might have raised the teleporting wizard who got eaten by the Roc, and, after recovering from the shock of learning that there are forms of magic that allow instant transport over large distances, Miko would have insisted on launching some kind of offensive strike to put the enemy off-balance, thus leading to X, Y and Z. It's unlikely that she could actually kill Xykon, but dispatching Redcloak and seizing the phylactery isn't outside the realm of possibility. Conversely, such an offensive strike might have prompted X & RC to reconsider their own strategies, thus ensuring both were not in the throne room at the same time when Soon came calling.

All of this assumes, of course, that she doesn't straight-up murder the Order for alleged collusion with Xykon and wind up Falling anyway. I don't really know, it's all a butterfly-effect scenario. <shrugs>
.

[Peelee]

It's not entirely clear that Shojo being in prison for reasons that can't be publicly explained wouldn't have had similar effects, and while you can certainly hold Miko responsible for killing Shojo, you can't blame her for the timing of her arrival at the throne room.

Sure we can. She decided to break out of jail, she decided that being stripped of her powers by the Twelve Gods themselves was a political decision made by Hinjo, she decided right then was the time to go to the throne room. We can absolutely blame her for the timing of her arrival at the throne room because she could have chosen not to go at all, or to stay in jail and plead her case.

[Keltest]

Sure we can. She decided to break out of jail, she decided that being stripped of her powers by the Twelve Gods themselves was a political decision made by Hinjo, she decided right then was the time to go to the throne room. We can absolutely blame her for the timing of her arrival at the throne room because she could have chosen not to go at all, or to stay in jail and plead her case.

Or not murder her defenseless liege lord, and thus not be in prison at all.

[Lacuna Caster]

Sure we can. She decided to break out of jail, she decided that being stripped of her powers by the Twelve Gods themselves was a political decision made by Hinjo...
No no no no. I mean arriving at the throne room at the precise moment needed to hear Shojo talking to Roy about colluding to dupe the paladins. This is in a presumed scenario where she never kills Shojo, remember?

[Kish]

1) "Miko, as a still-obedient paladin of the Sapphire Guard, insists on a modification of the city's defensive tactics" is highly unlikely.
2) Miko attacking Redcloak is in the comic. While she is clearly, despite the wishful thinking of anyone who would want to invoke the tier system, more than a match for Redcloak, the fight didn't end with even an inconvenience for Xykon.

[Lacuna Caster]

1) "Miko, as a still-obedient paladin of the Sapphire Guard, insists on a modification of the city's defensive tactics" is highly unlikely.
2) Miko attacking Redcloak is in the comic. While she is clearly, despite the wishful thinking of anyone who would want to invoke the tier system, more than a match for Redcloak, the fight didn't end with even an inconvenience for Xykon.
(1) Well, that depends- Shojo being alive is not the same thing as Shojo not being imprisoned and awaiting trial, and she is the Guard's highest-ranking member. She might very well have operational authority over Guard forces here. And even if she doesn't, it's not like she can't make her case to either Shojo or Hinjo, particularly if a teleporting wizard or other auxiliary forces legitimately change the tactical parameters of the situation.

(2) Sure, Xykon can flatten Miko or anyone else without much effort. But if Redcloak and Xykon are separated (which they were, for a time,) it's not impossible that sending a strike team into the enemy's camp could dispatch RC before Xykon received word. I don't know, it's just a possibility. Might turn out for the worse as well.

[Aquillion]

No no no no. I mean arriving at the throne room at the precise moment needed to hear Shojo talking to Roy about colluding to dupe the paladins. This is in a presumed scenario where she never kills Shojo, remember?Yeah. In that scenario what happens to Shojo is 100% his fault (Miko would be reacting the same way that Hinjo did and, therefore, presumably the way most other Paladins would have.)

While Miko's actions were more unjustifiable, it's reasonable to argue that the real damage to the city's defense was done by a combination of Shojo's scheming and the dumb luck that made all of it fall apart at the worst possible time. Even if Miko hadn't killed him, him being jailed wouldn't have been much better (and possibly even worse, since the nobles could reasonably portray it as a coup by Hinjo.)

It's possible he could have talked Hinjo into postponing the public announcement and jailing until after the battle, but it didn't seem to be Hinjo's initial reaction, and it's hard to see Miko accepting that. (The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her.)

[Keltest]

Yeah. In that scenario what happens to Shojo is 100% his fault (Miko would be reacting the same way that Hinjo did and, therefore, presumably the way most other Paladins would have.)

While Miko's actions were more unjustifiable, it's reasonable to argue that the real damage to the city's defense was done by a combination of Shojo's scheming and the dumb luck that made all of it fall apart at the worst possible time. Even if Miko hadn't killed him, him being jailed wouldn't have been much better (and possibly even worse, since the nobles could reasonably portray it as a coup by Hinjo.)

It's possible he could have talked Hinjo into postponing the public announcement and jailing until after the battle, but it didn't seem to be Hinjo's initial reaction, and it's hard to see Miko accepting that. (The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her.)

I think its conceivable that Shojo could convince Hinjo (and, I guess in this hypothetical, a more rational Miko) that he hadn't done anything illegal, regardless of the moral weight of his deception, and minimized the damage done to being ousted as leader of the Sapphire Guard in favor of whoever his designated successor was (probably Hinjo) while retaining lordship of the city.

[Aquillion]

I think its conceivable that Shojo could convince Hinjo (and, I guess in this hypothetical, a more rational Miko) that he hadn't done anything illegal, regardless of the moral weight of his deception, and minimized the damage done to being ousted as leader of the Sapphire Guard in favor of whoever his designated successor was (probably Hinjo) while retaining lordship of the city.
I dunno. Before Miko cut in (heh), Hinjo's response was save it for the magistrates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html).

[Lacuna Caster]

It's possible he could have talked Hinjo into postponing the public announcement and jailing until after the battle, but it didn't seem to be Hinjo's initial reaction, and it's hard to see Miko accepting that. (The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her.)
I... don't see anything unreasonable about insisting on Shojo being, at minimum, forcibly detained at that point. It's not like him being in cahoots with Xykon has exactly been disproven either.

Also, reading back, the prompt actually posits a version that just arrives a few minutes earlier or later, in which case it's not a question of how murderous Miko might be, but simply of her still being in the dark about Shojo's collusion with Roy & Co. In this scenario she'd still be largely convinced of Xykon's collusion with Roy & Co., so it's not like 'slash slash slash' is off the table in some direction or other.

[Keltest]

I... don't see anything unreasonable about insisting on Shojo being, at minimum, forcibly detained at that point. It's not like him being in cahoots with Xykon has exactly been disproven either.

Also, reading back, the prompt actually posits a version that just arrives a few minutes earlier or later, in which case it's not a question of how murderous Miko might be, but simply of her still being in the dark about Shojo's collusion with Roy & Co. In this scenario she'd still be largely convinced of Xykon's collusion with Roy & Co., so it's not like 'slash slash slash' is off the table in some direction or other.

You cant prove a negative. The only "evidence" that Shojo is colluding with Xykon is that Miko thinks he is because she doesn't like the Order. Hinjo, to the best of my knowledge, does not actually have any hard proof of illegal action on Shojo's part.

[Lacuna Caster]

You cant prove a negative. The only "evidence" that Shojo is colluding with Xykon is that Miko thinks he is because she doesn't like the Order. Hinjo, to the best of my knowledge, does not actually have any hard proof of illegal action on Shojo's part.
You are allowed to arrest people on reasonable suspicion of a crime even if you don't have proof. Xykon being alive despite the Order loudly claiming otherwise is reasonable grounds for suspicion about their claims. Shojo declaring out loud that he's been going behind his paladins' backs and fabricating an elaborate web of lies is reasonable grounds for suspicion about the legality of his actions. It may not be grounds for instant execution, sure. But it's certainly grounds for forcible detention.

[Peelee]

You are allowed to arrest people on reasonable suspicion of a crime even if you don't have proof.

Citation required for Azurite law.

ETA: My overall point isn't to be flippant, it's that you don't know what other factors may play into this. Right off the bat, there may be a wartime provision that exempts the ruler from being detained during an assault. Or Hinjo could choose to wait until detaining Shojo until after the battle, because he's already effectively ROR'd, as the lord of the city. Among many, many other potential factors.

[Lacuna Caster]

Citation required for Azurite law.
Okay, if Azurite law has some set of unreasonably specific exception in the case of the liege lord or his immediate associates, fine, maybe then Miko can't arrest him. But we were talking about what Miko might reasonably want to do. Miko has reasonable grounds for suspecting that Shojo, Roy & Co. are and were up to no good, and there's an evil lich about to batter down the city gates. Demanding that they detained until the crisis is past is not an unreasonable thing to expect.

[Vinyadan]

My impression was that the only thing Shojo had done that was really a big, magistrate-worthy deal was faking the outcome of a trial.

The rest was Hinjo being upset at Shojo for a number of personal reasons.

[Lacuna Caster]

My impression was that the only thing Shojo had done that was really a big, magistrate-worthy deal was faking the outcome of a trial.
We know this. Hinjo and Miko don't. What she knows is that Shojo and Roy colluded to, at minimum, release a dangerous serial killer along with a bunch of folks whose last known contribution consisted of blowing up a Gate, and that they most likely lied or at best withheld vital information about destroying Xykon (even true resurrection won't work on the undead). This is legitimately a situation that casts Shojo and the Order in an extremely poor light.

[Peelee]

Okay, if Azurite law has some set of unreasonably specific exception in the case of the liege lord or his immediate associates, fine, maybe then Miko can't arrest him. But we were talking about what Miko might reasonably want to do. Miko has reasonable grounds for suspecting that Shojo, Roy & Co. are and were up to no good, and there's an evil lich about to batter down the city gates. Demanding that they detained until the crisis is past is not an unreasonable thing to expect.

I may have edited the post too late, but the point is that exceptions don't need to be unreasonable or even specific to the lord of the city.

[Kish]

I think the shape of the story is unambiguously "Shojo would have gone to prison, had Miko not killed him," not "Shojo would have waved Hinjo off with 'no matter how much you disapprove of what I've done, Hinjo, I haven't broken the law.'" What he would have been charged with, the details of the trial--I don't know, or see them as particularly relevant.

If I'm wrong, and Belkar was wrong that Hinjo would have thrown Shojo in prison...then it reflects even worse on him that he didn't come back. "I'm not coming back to be thrown in prison, even though that means leaving the people I supposedly did everything for to the tender mercies of a hobgoblin horde" is bad; "I'm not coming back to be frowned at by my nephew even though etc." is worse.

[Peelee]

I think the shape of the story is unambiguously "Shojo would have gone to prison, had Miko not killed him," not "Shojo would have waved Hinjo off with 'no matter how much you disapprove of what I've done, Hinjo, I haven't broken the law.'" What he would have been charged with, the details of the trial--I don't know, or see them as particularly relevant.

Oh, I totally agree that Shojo would have been charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned, but given how his absence in command was influential on the imminent battle, when and how those would have happened I'm not nearly so certain on.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Citation required for Azurite law.

ETA: My overall point isn't to be flippant, it's that you don't know what other factors may play into this. Right off the bat, there may be a wartime provision that exempts the ruler from being detained during an assault. Or Hinjo could choose to wait until detaining Shojo until after the battle, because he's already effectively ROR'd, as the lord of the city. Among many, many other potential factors.
Well, Hinjo told Shojo to "save it for the magistrates," that "it's up to the courts to decide what happens next," which makes it sound like he was planning to at least give him one of those pre-trial hearings where they decide whether or not to go through with a trial. This indicates that Shojo could have been prosecuted. If my brief reread of the strips in question are accurate, this was after Hinjo learned of Xykon's army advancing on Azure City.



Oh, I totally agree that Shojo would have been charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned, but given how his absence in command was influential on the imminent battle, when and how those would have happened I'm not nearly so certain on.
I'm not convinced that his absence in command would actually have been an obstacle, so much as his absence in spirit (and the scandal around how nobody was allowed to know how he died). More closure probably means less scandal, and hence fewer desertions and fewer reasons for nobles to run off or stage a coup-by-ninja.

[Aquillion]

We know this. Hinjo and Miko don't. What she knows is that Shojo and Roy colluded to, at minimum, release a dangerous serial killer along with a bunch of folks whose last known contribution consisted of blowing up a Gate, and that they most likely lied or at best withheld vital information about destroying Xykon (even true resurrection won't work on the undead). This is legitimately a situation that casts Shojo and the Order in an extremely poor light.Also, they literally walked in right as he was agreeing to toss three other people into jail with no trial and, presumably, hold them indefinitely. That is probably against the law. We're inclined to overlook it because we know that those people were Nale and co, but nobody outside the Order would know that (even Shojo didn't bother to ask).

O-Chul signed off on it, if grudgingly, but he presumably thought Shojo as mad at the time - the fact that Shojo was doing this while lucid as part of a larger political plan changes things.


I... don't see anything unreasonable about insisting on Shojo being, at minimum, forcibly detained at that point. It's not like him being in cahoots with Xykon has exactly been disproven either.I'm not really talking about whether it's reasonable or unreasonable - that's not the point.

The point is that if he's arrested immediately (before the battle), then Miko not killing him didn't actually change much, at least not up until the point where she shattered the gate-gem.

[Rodin]

The point is that if he's arrested immediately (before the battle), then Miko not killing him didn't actually change much, at least not up until the point where she shattered the gate-gem.

An interesting thought on this:

It's clear from O-Chul's actions that he was not aware of Soon's final protection for the Gate. He would have fought to delay Xykon while the ghosts were raised instead of racing to destroy the stone (making the protection moot). It's not unreasonable then to assume that Miko didn't know about it either, meaning that the result of Miko being in the throne room is that the gate gets shattered a bit earlier than it did. The bouncy ball of madness goes off, leaving just O-Chul and Miko. One of the two fights Xykon while the other runs to destroy the Gate, or both make the run and Xykon can't stop both of them. Without the presence of the Gate, Soon doesn't appear, and Xykon and Redcloak go on to win the day much as they did before.

[Fyraltari]

An interesting thought on this:

It's clear from O-Chul's actions that he was not aware of Soon's final protection for the Gate. He would have fought to delay Xykon while the ghosts were raised instead of racing to destroy the stone (making the protection moot). It's not unreasonable then to assume that Miko didn't know about it either, meaning that the result of Miko being in the throne room is that the gate gets shattered a bit earlier than it did. The bouncy ball of madness goes off, leaving just O-Chul and Miko. One of the two fights Xykon while the other runs to destroy the Gate, or both make the run and Xykon can't stop both of them. Without the presence of the Gate, Soon doesn't appear, and Xykon and Redcloak go on to win the day much as they did before.

At least five paladins* beside O-Chul were unaffected by Xykon's symbol of insanity. I'm not sure Miko would have made that much of a difference, given that Xykon can fly.


*Not sure if the suicidee in the last panel was never affected or if the spell ended.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm not really talking about whether it's reasonable or unreasonable - that's not the point.

The point is that if he's arrested immediately (before the battle), then Miko not killing him didn't actually change much, at least not up until the point where she shattered the gate-gem.
Well, you remarked that "The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her", which suggests that Miko would have to be unreasonable to some degree to insist on Shojo's immediate detention. Whereas... I find it difficult to come up with reasonable grounds for *not* doing that.

[Lacuna Caster]

At least five paladins* beside O-Chul were unaffected by Xykon's symbol of insanity. I'm not sure Miko would have made that much of a difference, given that Xykon can fly.
Xykon gloats that the only reason why O-Chul got as close to smashing the gate as he did is because he wanted to give him false hope. If several paladins had rushed for the gem at once, Xykon would've used mass-hold-person or resilient sphere or some other fruck-you-I-win spell to end the battle.

[woweedd]

Well, you remarked that "The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her", which suggests that Miko would have to be unreasonable to some degree to insist on Shojo's immediate detention. Whereas... I find it difficult to come up with reasonable grounds for *not* doing that.

I mean... I can some pragmatic logic in “maybe we should hold off on arresting the leader of the city, forcing us to undergo a chaotic transiston of power, until when we don’t have a billion hobgoblins about to murder us.

[hroþila]

I mean... I can some pragmatic logic in “maybe we should hold off on arresting the leader of the city, forcing us to undergo a chaotic transiston of power, until when we don’t have a billion hobgoblins about to murder us.
The flip side of that is that leaving the guy you're going to arrest in charge for a huge battle offers him a great opportunity to put his own interests ahead of those of the city.

[Lacuna Caster]

I mean... I can some pragmatic logic in “maybe we should hold off on arresting the leader of the city, forcing us to undergo a chaotic transiston of power, until when we don’t have a billion hobgoblins about to murder us.

The flip side of that is that leaving the guy you're going to arrest in charge for a huge battle offers him a great opportunity to put his own interests ahead of those of the city.
Yes, particularly if those interests potentially involve colluding with the evil lich currently leading the hobgoblin horde.

[Keltest]

Yes, particularly if those interests potentially involve colluding with the evil lich currently leading the hobgoblin horde.

Those particular charges should have been fairly easy to refute, since they were based on Shojo working with the Order and Miko assuming the Order was evil because of her own biases. Hinjo doesn't really seem on board with those charges, and indeed im not aware that Miko even was suspicious of him, in particular, until after she walked in the room.

[hamishspence]

Those particular charges should have been fairly easy to refute, since they were based on Shojo working with the Order and Miko assuming the Order was evil because of her own biases.

Yes - it's fairly safe to say that she's talking about the Order here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html

and has already decided they are liars obstructing the mission of the Sapphire Guard, long before she meets Xykon. She's just using his survival to support conclusions she's already made.

A less biased person would have concluded only that they are mistaken about destroying Xykon, not that they were lying about it.

[Lacuna Caster]

Those particular charges should have been fairly easy to refute, since they were based on Shojo working with the Order and Miko assuming the Order was evil because of her own biases. Hinjo doesn't really seem on board with those charges...
Hinjo is willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt because he and Belkar defend him from Miko. In some hypothetical scenario where Miko overhears Shojo's conversation but doesn't immediately kill him, she can still connect the dots between Xykon, Roy and Shojo.


A less biased person would have concluded only that they are mistaken about destroying Xykon, not that they were lying about it.
Why on earth would you conclude that? There is absolutely nothing that the Order have done to make them look particularly trustworthy, and the trial itself appears to have been a fabrication. Why should she, in any way shape or fashion, be giving them the benefit of the doubt?

[hamishspence]

It's not a case of "giving them the benefit of the doubt" it's a case of "not assuming the worst".

Remember, at the moment she discovered Xykon was alive - she had no idea about the trial. Yet she still jumps to the assumption that they are liars who were somehow magically able to shield their lies from being detected.

[Keltest]

Hinjo is willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt because he and Belkar defend him from Miko. In some hypothetical scenario where Miko overhears Shojo's conversation but doesn't immediately kill him, she can still connect the dots between Xykon, Roy and Shojo.


Why on earth would you conclude that? There is absolutely nothing that the Order have done to make them look particularly trustworthy, and the trial itself appears to have been a fabrication. Why should she, in any way shape or fashion, be giving them the benefit of the doubt?

Its not really the benefit of the doubt so much as recognizing that she has no evidence that theyre actually colluding whatsoever. She reaches that conclusion because she wants it to be true, but she doesn't actually have any proof at all.

[Lacuna Caster]

Its not really the benefit of the doubt so much as recognizing that she has no evidence that theyre actually colluding whatsoever. She reaches that conclusion because she wants it to be true, but she doesn't actually have any proof at all.

It's not a case of "giving them the benefit of the doubt" it's a case of "not assuming the worst"...
As mentioned earlier, you are allowed to arrest people on the basis of reasonable suspicion. Conviction and sentencing, or even excessively long-term detention, are not the same thing, sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about grounds for arrest. If nothing else, you need to make sure that he doesn't, e.g, literally commandeer a pet wizard and teleport out of the city with his cronies. Arresting Shojo is the baseline minimum precaution here, and him being Lord of the city makes that more important, not less.

[Keltest]

As mentioned earlier, you are allowed to arrest people on the basis of reasonable suspicion. Conviction and sentencing, or even excessively long-term detention, are not the same thing, sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about grounds for arrest. If nothing else, you need to make sure that he doesn't, e.g, literally commandeer a pet wizard and teleport out of the city with his cronies. Arresting Shojo is the baseline minimum precaution here, and him being Lord of the city makes that more important, not less.

The key word there is not suspicion, but reasonable. There was nothing reasonable about Miko's suspicion. As Roy points out, her train of thought is self contradictory.

[GreatWyrmGold]

*Not sure if the suicidee in the last panel was never affected or if the spell ended.
Her last line was Oh Twelve Gods...what have I done?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) "What have I done," not "What is going on?" or something. (Also, it looks like she's therein the seventh and eighth panels.)



Why on earth would you conclude that? There is absolutely nothing that the Order have done to make them look particularly trustworthy, and the trial itself appears to have been a fabrication. Why should she, in any way shape or fashion, be giving them the benefit of the doubt?
Even assuming "innocent until proven guilty" isn't in fashion with the Sapphire Guard, I don't think Roy's kept it a secret that his father swore a blood oath against Xykon. We don't get much detail on those oaths, but I'm guessing it's enough to make Roy look distinctly less guilty in working with the guy he needs to try to kill to get into Celestia.



As mentioned earlier, you are allowed to arrest people on the basis of reasonable suspicion. Conviction and sentencing, or even excessively long-term detention, are not the same thing, sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about grounds for arrest. If nothing else, you need to make sure that he doesn't, e.g, literally commandeer a pet wizard and teleport out of the city with his cronies. Arresting Shojo is the baseline minimum precaution here, and him being Lord of the city makes that more important, not less.
Wait, are you talking about "arresting Shojo due to the crimes he admitted to in the throne room," or "arresting Shojo and the Order because Miko's story about them working for Xykon could be true"?

[Lacuna Caster]

Even assuming "innocent until proven guilty" isn't in fashion with the Sapphire Guard, I don't think Roy's kept it a secret that his father swore a blood oath against Xykon. We don't get much detail on those oaths, but I'm guessing it's enough to make Roy look distinctly less guilty in working with the guy he needs to try to kill to get into Celestia.
But why would Miko et al think that Roy is telling the truth about the blood oath any more than he told the truth about destroying Xykon in the first place? You can't use Roy's statements to prove his trustworthiness if you can't trust his statements to begin with.


Wait, are you talking about "arresting Shojo due to the crimes he admitted to in the throne room," or "arresting Shojo and the Order because Miko's story about them working for Xykon could be true"?
Oh, there's clear and abundant justification for arresting both Shojo and Order, purely on the basis of what was overheard in the throne room about conspiring to rig a trial, liberate belkar, etc.

The question is whether the impending battle with Xykon and his goons would justify suspending arrest until after the battle is conducted, on the basis that Shojo (and perhaps the Order) would be useful to the Azurite cause. I would argue that cloud of suspicion they're under makes them look like more a liability, or at least that they have to be treated as such until a formal investigation clears their name.

[woweedd]

But why would Miko et al think that Roy is telling the truth about the blood oath any more than he told the truth about destroying Xykon in the first place? You can't use Roy's statements to prove his trustworthiness if you can't trust his statements to begin with.


Oh, there's clear and abundant justification for arresting both Shojo and Order, purely on the basis of what was overheard in the throne room about conspiring to rig a trial, liberate belkar, etc.

The question is whether the impending battle with Xykon and his goons would justify suspending arrest until after the battle is conducted, on the basis that Shojo (and perhaps the Order) would be useful to the Azurite cause. I would argue that cloud of suspicion they're under makes them look like more a liability, or at least that they have to be treated as such until a formal investigation clears their name.
Yes, Miko wouldn't trust his statements, because Miko is a paranoiac, who is very much not reasonable.

[grandpheonix]

I like to think the gate would have been defended, the hobos all killed except for red cloak. Team evil would have fallen back and headed to girards gate, which would have been defended by girard. For like, a minute. By the time the order got there the gate would have been claimed and in mid spell.

Maybe.

[factotum]

Team evil would have fallen back and headed to girards gate, which would have been defended by girard.

No it wouldn't--Girard has been dead for years, they found his tomb in the foyer of the pyramid in the desert.

[zimmerwald1915]

No it wouldn't--Girard has been dead for years, they found his tomb in the foyer of the pyramid in the desert.
I'm sure he would appreciate, however, reference to his descendants as extensions of himself.

[Jasdoif]

I'm sure he would appreciate, however, reference to his descendants as extensions of himself.Does that mean they were hoisted by their own girard?

[woweedd]

I'm sure he would appreciate, however, reference to his descendants as extensions of himself.
Ironically, for someone who claims to be Chaotic, he was oddly authorian.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ironically, for someone who claims to be Chaotic, he was oddly authorian.
I don't think we saw enough of daily life in Girard's guild to say anything more specific than "he's organized".

[Lacuna Caster]

But why would Miko et al think that Roy is telling the truth about the blood oath any more than he told the truth about destroying Xykon in the first place? You can't use Roy's statements to prove his trustworthiness if you can't trust his statements to begin with.
To be fair, there are always Zone of Truth/Discern Lies spells, but if those didn't work during the trial it's not obvious they'd work here.

[hamishspence]

As far as we know, they did work during the trial.

Were any of the statements made by beings "in the chair" covered by the spells, proven to be false? Intentionally false - a lie, rather than a "mistake of fact"?

[factotum]

Well, the statement by the being of pure Law and Good that it was, indeed, such a being was demonstrably false when it turned out to be Eugene casting an illusion.

[hamishspence]

It wasn't exactly in the Zone of Truth though. Wasn't the Zone put up after his appearance?

First appearance of disguised Eugene:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

First appearance of Chair of Truth:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html

[Resileaf]

Plus Hinjo had no idea it was not one that came through. Shojo himself never said anything.

And technically, he did summon a being of pure good and law. It's just not one that came through. :P

[Lacuna Caster]

As far as we know, they did work during the trial.
Oh, sure. But Miko wouldn't have any way of knowing that, is the problem.

[Peelee]

Oh, sure. But Miko wouldn't have any way of knowing that, is the problem.

Are you suggesting Miko would assume something was flawed because it did not conform to her preconceived expectations? :smalltongue:

[CriticalFailure]

Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.

[Lacuna Caster]

Are you suggesting Miko would assume something was flawed because it did not conform to her preconceived expectations? :smalltongue:

Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.
Yeah, that's my point. One doesn't have to posit some cartoonishly unreasonable degree of suspicion for Miko to want the Order and/or Shojo arrested on the basis of available information.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Didn’t Miko not really have any way of knowing quite the extent of what was faked and what was true? Obviously deciding to execute Shojo herself was going too far, but not trusting the order made sense to me.
She didn't have any way of knowing if the laws were corrupt, because a corrupt book of laws could be made to look exactly like a good one to Miko's eyes.
I don't have any way of knowing if the world is a simulation, because a simulation could be made to look exactly like a real world.
The question Miko should have asked is if there was enough reason to doubt the validity of the law and whatnot. But she's Miko, so she didn't.

[CriticalFailure]

Well based on what she overheard it was obvious that Shojo was manipulating the legal system to collaborate with the order behind the paladins’ backs, it just wasn’t clear the extent to which it was occurring or what had/hadn’t been lied about. Executing Shojo was going too far, but I think distrusting the order made sense.

[Lacuna Caster]

She didn't have any way of knowing if the laws were corrupt, because a corrupt book of laws could be made to look exactly like a good one to Miko's eyes.
I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison. And I could easily imagine that Miko has memorised every regulation and bylaw currently in force in Azure City, including those she doesn't like. ("Floggings for pickpockets!? Far too lenient in my view.")

[GreatWyrmGold]

I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison.
Yes, that trial which Shojo ran was obviously corrupt. She has no good reason to assume that the court system is so corrupt that basically the same thing would happen with Hinjo running the show.

[Peelee]

I would strongly suspect that Azurite law does not make specific provision for rigging the outcome of a trial and springing convicted murderers from prison.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't covered under a litany of other laws (obstruction of justice is the most obvious one right off the bat, aiding and abetting, accessories after the fact, I'm sure an actual lawyer could point out other very common laws most states employ).

And I could easily imagine that Miko has memorised every regulation and bylaw currently in force in Azure City, including those she doesn't like.
I know it's a fantasy world where thousand-lb dragons fly and shoot fire from their mouths while casting magical spells, but the lines gotta be drawn somewhere. And a cop (even an elite one backed by the gods) knowing all criminal laws is miles past wherever that line is drawn.

[Mightymosy]

@ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book? :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

@ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book? :smallbiggrin:

Sir Coppy, famous for his filmed beating of the suspension of disbelief.:smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

@ Pelee: What's the name of the cop in Disc world who remembers every law in the book? :smallbiggrin:

Carrot Ironfoundersson.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yes, that trial which Shojo ran was obviously corrupt. She has no good reason to assume that the court system is so corrupt that basically the same thing would happen with Hinjo running the show.
If Hinjo is running the show, this implies that Shojo has already been arrested and the Order have been detained for (re)trial. This particular debate was about whether arresting Shojo and the Order would be justified in the first place.


I'd be surprised if it wasn't covered under a litany of other laws (obstruction of justice is the most obvious one right off the bat, aiding and abetting, accessories after the fact, I'm sure an actual lawyer could point out other very common laws most states employ).
GreatWyrm seemed to be trying to argue that Miko had no way of distinguishing between corrupt and non-corrupt laws, and I was simply pointing out that Azurite law almost certainly didn't make specific exceptions for... all the stuff you've mentioned. In other words, Shojo's criminality was totally obvious by then, regardless of how the laws worked.


I know it's a fantasy world where thousand-lb dragons fly and shoot fire from their mouths while casting magical spells, but the lines gotta be drawn somewhere. And a cop (even an elite one backed by the gods) knowing all criminal laws is miles past wherever that line is drawn.
Why? I know OOTS is an anachronistic mishmash, but the law codes of ancient societies (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamframe.asp) weren't all that complicated. (Even the english translation of the tang code (http://lsc.chineselegalculture.org/Asset/Source/lscDocument_ID-8_No-1.pdf) is only a hundred pages or so, excluding modern commentary and appendices.) Most holy books are much meatier, and I expect Miko knew hers by heart.

[Keltest]

Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.

[Peelee]

GreatWyrm seemed to be trying to argue that Miko had no way of distinguishing between corrupt and non-corrupt laws, and I was simply pointing out that Azurite law almost certainly didn't make specific exceptions for... all the stuff you've mentioned. In other words, Shojo's criminality was totally obvious by then, regardless of how the laws worked.

I was with you until the last sentence. Criminality is by definition regarding how the laws work.


Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.
Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.

[Lacuna Caster]

I was with you until the last sentence. Criminality is by definition regarding how the laws work.
Okay, but I just mean it's highly unlikely that Shojo had distorted his own code of laws to the point where what he was caught doing was actually legal.


Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.
...Actually, Keltest may have a point. If arresting the Order in the first place was done on sketchy legal grounds, then the paladins can't reasonably throw those charges at Shojo in a secular Azurite court without also implicating themselves in the whole affair. Belkar's sentencing was based on the murder he committed, which is presumably recognised as criminal independently of anything the Guard were up to, but anything related to the Order's trial is something the paladins can't really explain to the city's magistrates without raising a bunch of other awkward questions.

[Peelee]

Okay, but I just mean it's highly unlikely that Shojo had distorted his own code of laws to the point where what he was caught doing was actually legal.

Oh, totally agree on that.


...Actually, Keltest may have a point here. If arresting in the Order in the first place was done on sketchy legal grounds, then the paladins can't reasonably throw those charges at Shojo in an Azurite court without implicating themselves in the whole affair.

Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.

[Lacuna Caster]

Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.
The positions and organisations themselves may be legally authorised (though if the Guard's existence itself is supposed to be closely hidden, I'm not clear on how.) The question is whether Shojo committed some manner of crime himself by ordering his underling/s to (potentially) violate national boundaries in pursuit of suspects whose alleged crimes can't actually be explained without revealing state secrets. And if he did, Miko would be an accessory to the crime.

[Keltest]

Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does. Probably fraud, depending on how they define it, misuse of public funds may be a thing there, and hell, throwing more charges than are necessarily warranted against the wall to see what sticks is not an uncommon tactic.

Medieval lords were frequently given broad or total leeway when it came to law enforcement. I doubt that arresting foreign agents for a day, then releasing them after clearing them of charges would be illegal.

[Peelee]

Medieval lords were frequently given broad or total leeway when it came to law enforcement. I doubt that arresting foreign agents for a day, then releasing them after clearing them of charges would be illegal.

They also had rampant diseases and lacked anything closely resembling modern metropolises. Stickworld is fun.

[Keltest]

They also had rampant diseases and lacked anything closely resembling modern metropolises. Stickworld is fun.

Whats your point? No, stickworld is not a perfect 1:1 match for medieval Asian governments, but the alternative is to just throw our hands up and scream that theres nothing at all we can do here to come to any conclusion.

If nothing else, if it was illegal for Shojo to arrest the Order under Azurite law, then it would also be illegal to arrest Shojo under Azurite law, prior to having found him guilty at a trial.

[Peelee]

If nothing else, if it was illegal for Shojo to arrest the Order under Azurite law, then it would also be illegal to arrest Shojo under Azurite law, prior to having found him guilty at a trial.

That's.... that's really not how arrests work. Not to mention a false equivalence.

[Keltest]

That's.... that's really not how arrests work. Not to mention a false equivalence.

Hey, youre the one who said that the Order's arrest would be kidnapping.

[Peelee]

Hey, youre the one who said that the Order's arrest would be kidnapping.

Could, not would. And that doesn't equate to needing to be convicted before being arrested in any event.

[Keltest]

Could, not would. And that doesn't equate to needing to be convicted before being arrested in any event.

But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?

[Peelee]

But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?

Kidnapping, if Azurite law does not consider the Sapphire Guard a legal authority with international jurisdiction, and obstruction of justice et al if Azurite law does.

Also, should I be concerned that you're taking hypothetical examples as me stating things are set in stone?

[Keltest]

Also, should I be concerned that you're taking hypothetical examples as me stating things are set in stone?

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.

[Peelee]

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.

If I order a murder in the Principality of Peelee and it occurs on the moon, the PoP is still gonna go after me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If Hinjo is running the show, this implies that Shojo has already been arrested and the Order have been detained for (re)trial. This particular debate was about whether arresting Shojo and the Order would be justified in the first place.
I was under the impression that we were discussing whether or not Miko had sufficient evidence to justify her extrajudicial "justice".



Sure they can; to turn around how he put it, Shojo is the leader of the Sapphire Guard, but separately the Lord of the City. Even if both are legally authorized, because he wears two hats he can be caught up in conflict of interest which could lead to being in an actionable position without the SG being tethered along.
Like the Pope, aka King of Vatican City? There's a problem with this. Not with the formulation of Shojo's position, that makes sense, but with asserting that business done on behalf of the Guard is exempt from following the rule of the City. That would be like suggesting that the Pope can get away with doing things that go against the laws of Vatican City. (Never mind that Vatican City is an absolute monarchy and the Pope could make whatever he wanted to do legal, as long as it didn't lead to his church kicking him out.) He wears both hats, making his head twice as heavy.



But then whats illegitimate about the Order's arrest, in the eyes of the law?
Depends on the law, but most advanced law codes frown upon arresting people without sufficient reason to believe that they were guilty. Considering that Sapphire Guild secrets would be revealed in merely providing sufficient reason to believe that a crime had been committed (Belkar's chronic murder-holism aside), Shojo would potentially need to break Sapphire Guard rules to prove he was following Azure City law. It depends on the law again, but if you can't prove that you're following the law when the evidence seems against you, that's generally not good.
Of course, if there are properly-empowered courts who are allowed to know Sapphire Guard secrets and deliver binding judgement in secret, this isn't really a problem. There was reasonable doubt to arrest the Order for destabilizing the fabric of reality, because there's clear evidence that blowing up Dorukon's castle stuck a big finger through a pre-existing hole, and that the Order did so. At that point, the only crime Shojo could have committed would be letting someone as smite-aholic as Miko go to arrest them without supervision.



Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.
Just because a place is under nobody's jurisdiction doesn't mean laws don't apply, it just means fewer laws apply. You can't do literally anything in international waters, you just dodge some laws. Two points in particular apply:
1. Internal codes of conduct, which have the force of law for institutions which uphold the law, apply. If a Sapphire Guardsman violated laws relating to the conduct of the Sapphire Guard while abroad, he would still be accountable for his actions later.
2. In general, if you commit a crime against someone a country cares enough about, that country will find a way to punish someone involved. For instance, if a Chaev official assaulted and killed a Lawgo tourist, Lawgo would have good reason to insist Chaev prosecute and/or extradite the official. If this happened enough, Lawgo might simply declare war on Chaev to enforce an extradition treaty. Of course, this couldn't happen if the crime happened in an area which doesn't belong to any country...but then you don't have anyone to protect you if the country you harmed decides to prosecute (or, arguably, murder) you regardless.

[Peelee]

Like the Pope, aka King of Vatican City?

I wasn't aware that the Catholic clergy had policing powers among the unordained (and considering all the schooling between the Dominicans and Benedictines, I'm fairly certain it would have come up at some point). :smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

We can't really say anything about any of this for certain, since we don't know Azurite city law. A lot depends on how the Paladins and the law of Azure city intersect, but I see absolutely no reason to think they're completely distinct - I would assume that when the Paladins arrest or imprison someone, that is a lawful arrest governed by Azure City laws; when they hold a trial, that is a lawful Azure City trial, and so on.

We don't know the relevant law, but Hinjo likely does, or would at least know the very basic stuff like "was that trial an actual, legal trial with actual legal ramifications if you obstruct justice during it, or was it just a meaningless pretend trial where Shojo could do whatever he wanted", and he seemed to think it reasonably likely that his uncle had committed a serious crime.

As I mentioned above, if nothing else throwing the Linear Guild in jail indefinitely without a trial was almost certainly illegal.

The fake trial for Roy may or may not have been illegal depending on exactly what resources were used for it and exactly how the affairs of Paladins and Azure City intersect, but I don't think it's implausible to suggest that it could have been illegal.

Shojo also said that he took the same oaths as the Paladins regarding the gate; it's possible that those oaths are actually legally binding under Azure City law, and that his efforts to go around them were therefore illegal.

Letting Belkar out was almost definitely illegal.

Lying to or deceiving the Paladins may itself be a separate crime, especially if it was done to conceal things that were illegal or which Shojo believed may be illegal. We don't have real-world Paladins, but if they're considered to have any sort of legal status in Azure City, it's not unreasonable for it to be like lying to an officer or an FBI investigator or the like.


Given that Shojo did not fake a trial under Azurite law at all, but rather independently in his position as head of the Sapphire Guard, its unlikely that Azurite law has anything at all to say about his actions.
I particularly disagree with this. Nothing in the story remotely suggests that the trial we saw was anything but a lawful, legally-binding trial governed by Azurite city law (and in fact if it wasn't, Celia would have definitely, 100% no question raised that issue during the trial, since that would be absolutely vital.)

My reading is that Paladins are simply empowered to act on behalf of Azure City law enforcement under certain circumstances, and that Shojo had certain leeway and powers as the city's leader and the leader of the Paladin. But those wouldn't extend to blatantly obstructing justice.

[factotum]

Perhaps more to the point, the trial took place in Azure City, which, last time I checked, is within Azure City territory. Therefore, unless there is some sort of exemption built into the legal system (e.g. "The Lord of the City is outside the law and can do anything he wants") it was perforce carried out under the auspices of Azure City law simply because of its location.

[Lacuna Caster]

Azurite law pretty definitely ends at the borders of Azurite territory. And I believe a point was made, either in-comic or by Rich in a forum post (or both) that Wooden Forest is lawless territory under nobody's jurisdiction, where rule of law means nothing.
Oh, I'm willing to grant that, in practice, Miko's arrest was tolerably respectful of national boundaries, if only by the technicality of what she was able to get away with. (i.e, she happened to chance on the Order in a lawless area, then rescued the King of Somewhere, thereby glossing over any legal problems with beating the stuffing out of her captives and dragging them away in chains after the Inn scene.)

It's conceivable that if Miko initially had reason to believe the Order were within the borders of Somewhere, she would have deliberately sought out local magistrates, explained her business and sought formal permission to arrest them- maybe Azure City even has extradition agreements with some of the northern kingdoms to smooth the process over. But there's no direct evidence for it either. And she can't easily explain why she wants to arrest the OOTS and drag them back to her city without leaking sensitive intel about the Gates, at least not without some very careful wording and selective omissions.

(And not to beat a dead horse, but all of this could easily be averted by Shojo simply Sending to the Order and then teleporting/wind-walking a party of paladins to escort them back for trial from outside the ruins Dorukan's Keep, thus sidestepping the issue of national sovereignty entirely. But I digress.)


I was under the impression that we were discussing whether or not Miko had sufficient evidence to justify her extrajudicial "justice".
Nope. Just discussing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580644-What-if-Miko-never-killed-Shojo&p=23735034&viewfull=1#post23735034) whether it would be 'unreasonable' to arrest Shojo and the OOTS.


Depends on the law, but most advanced law codes frown upon arresting people without sufficient reason to believe that they were guilty. Considering that Sapphire Guild secrets would be revealed in merely providing sufficient reason to believe that a crime had been committed (Belkar's chronic murder-holism aside), Shojo would potentially need to break Sapphire Guard rules to prove he was following Azure City law...

...Just because a place is under nobody's jurisdiction doesn't mean laws don't apply, it just means fewer laws apply. You can't do literally anything in international waters, you just dodge some laws.

We can't really say anything about any of this for certain, since we don't know Azurite city law. A lot depends on how the Paladins and the law of Azure city intersect, but I see absolutely no reason to think they're completely distinct - I would assume that when the Paladins arrest or imprison someone, that is a lawful arrest governed by Azure City laws; when they hold a trial, that is a lawful Azure City trial, and so on.

We don't know the relevant law, but Hinjo likely does, or would at least know the very basic stuff like "was that trial an actual, legal trial with actual legal ramifications if you obstruct justice during it, or was it just a meaningless pretend trial where Shojo could do whatever he wanted", and he seemed to think it reasonably likely that his uncle had committed a serious crime.
Well, hang on. The author explicitly notes that it's possible for Lawful characters to be following a set of religious edicts that they consider to be more valid than any secular legal code and still be 100% Lawful, so the paladins might be willing to follow Shojo's directives as their superior within a religious order even if that abrogates their city's law code. (O-Chul, in particular, just seems to grumble in resignation about throwing the Linear Guild in jail indefinitely, despite knowing quite well how 'irregular' this is. If this is a crime, he's also an accessory to it.)

So I mean, yeah, Shojo does a bunch of stuff that's pretty definitely criminal even under Azurite Law, but the paladins can't really explain what was happening with the OOTS on trial without some questionable assumptions about their city's sovereignty and/or trusting the magistrates with sensitive information about the fabric of reality. And to the extent that Shojo is provably criminal, some of his... associates are going to look pretty dirty as well.

[Keltest]

Shojo is the second ruler who has also held the leadership of the SG, right? I personally would be very surprised if the SG had not been given broad leeway under the legal code to act in defense of the fabric of reality, even beyond the normal limits of the law. Regardless of whether Shojo could be charged with anything, the paladins are likely protected.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I wasn't aware that the Catholic clergy had policing powers among the unordained (and considering all the schooling between the Dominicans and Benedictines, I'm fairly certain it would have come up at some point). :smalltongue:
Did you go to school in Vatican City itself? Because that's as far as they have legal powers.

[Vinyadan]

How about avoiding forbidden topics?