[Answered](ty all) MirrorImage+Enlarge (and other "altering" spells): how to rule it?

[Citan]

Hi guys!

I have a simple question about Mirror Image (yes, this spell again XD).

A player of mine wanted to intimidate a crowd and thought of the following trick.

Casting Mirror Image on self, THEN Enlarge self.

My comprehension of Mirror Image has always been that the replicas are made at the cast then don't "evolve". So whether same caster uses Enlarge, Alter Self, Invisibility or what not the images will always stay identical and visible.
(I did allow what the player thought would happen aka "Enlarged Duplicates", but just this one time for fun and warned him of what my normal ruling would be).

1. Would you agree with my interpretation of RAW (post-Mirror Image use of self-altering spell doesn't change duplicates)? Would you usually override it anyways per ROC?

Now my second question.
2. IF in the contrary, player casts "other" spell first then Mirror Image (ex Alter Self/Enlarge), do we agree that those Mirror Image would be made from that altered aspect/size? Seems obvious to me but I'd like to be sure.
Following question: if we all agree on "yes" on second question (ex: I'm a human, I cast Enlarge then Mirror Image, I now have three Large illusions around), then do you agree that when concentration spell ends, only the caster (and not duplicates) returns to normal?

4. In case you can make Enlarged Duplicates work, how do you manage the space they take?

Thanks in advance for your feedback. I was kinda embarrassed by this particular use-case because I didn't know how to rule the "encumberance" of enlarged duplicates: player cast it into a tavern, with chairs and tables. I avoided trouble by saying he cast from middle of room with enough empty space around, but had honestly no idea on what best to rule this (illusions being "through" furnitures? Then it's useless. Illusions staying in same space as caster? Then it's like Blur).

[Ganymede]

I'm not sure I buy that at all.

That would imply that you could saturate a square with paint and tell the target from the mirror images, which are paintless. Heck, even if the target did something like roll up sleeves or put down his hood, the images would still look hooded.

[Chronos]

The images mimic the original's movements and actions, so I think it's reasonable to assume that they mimic magical alterations, too.

[Citan]

The images mimic the original's movements and actions, so I think it's reasonable to assume that they mimic magical alterations, too.
Hmm. I think your sentence here summarizes my problem far better than I did. XD
This certainly is the crux of problem: do magic effects on caster affect duplicates?

If you don't mind I'll put it in OP.


I'm not sure I buy that at all.

That would imply that you could saturate a square with paint and tell the target from the mirror images, which are paintless. Heck, even if the target did something like roll up sleeves or put down his hood, the images would still look hooded.
You are giving two very different examples here.

The "put out hood", I would rule that images get also unhooded because it's a player's movement/action.

However, setting up paint is bringing an "external cause/effect" onto caster and duplicates. I would indeed certainly rule that only caster is affected. I don't think it's a nerf either because you are supposing here an enemy that...
a) Understands it's a magical effect (so far not too difficult).
b) Knows how it works (meaning a caster basically in most cases, or an intelligent creature that works/is instructed by a caster).
c) Has prepared different ways to counter it just in case.

I don't see this happening often in games. :)

[Mellack]

It would seem a weak spell if it didn't keep up with alterations. Too many ways then to bypass it altogether. I always believed that whatever changes happen to the caster also happen to the duplicates.

[Citan]

It would seem a weak spell if it didn't keep up with alterations. Too many ways then to bypass it altogether. I always believed that whatever changes happen to the caster also happen to the duplicates.
I would have followed the same reasoning without any restrain IF the spell was concentration.
But this spell is not.

And every spell that allows changing "during time" is concentration as far as I remember. That's why I am (was?) so reluctant on ruling in a liberal way hence asking for everyone's opinions and experiences. :)

Because in mine, it's usually a spell a player casts at start of a fight just for the added defense, without trying to use it creatively. And rarely do enemies have counter-tactics known and prepared (except Dispel ;)). Even when they have, they usually have better things to do with their actions anyways (casting a spell, or simply using Multiattack and "dispel" through pummeling).
In other words, it's the first time ever I actually have to think about it. XD

(Also, I'm biaised by the memorable fight between Hisoka and Kastro in HxH, the latter creating a nen doppleganger, and Hisoka explaining that because he cannot reflect alterations on the fly during fight, Hisoka can easily see which is who after a few minutes. I know it's a completely different universe and metaconcepts thus
unrelated thing, but I found it very interesting and it seemed to be similar in concept to Mirror Image.)

[Skylivedk]

Rule of Cool for sure. But then again... It's in my signature. I don't think you'll find RAW to support either and if anything I'd be inclined to say RAW would go against, but I don't see the fun in that. I do see the fun in 4 enlarged Dragonborn running around town, using alter-self to really break out the popcorn

[sophontteks]

Rule of cool and mirror image is intended to mimic the caster. Really, the utility of this is not so great anyway.

[Derpy]

They mimic your actions. if one of your actions is enlarging yourself they would mimic it, I should think.

A potentially relevant JC tweet
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/999689159336841217

Other then that, I don't think it's the most intimidating spell, basically there's now a few of you in the same spot all shifting around doing exactly the same thing. I don't think it looks like four people ready to fight, but one person with a defense up. Only thing it really signals is that the character is ready to rumble. Which I guess can be intimidating in it's own right.

[Erys]

Hi guys!

I have a simple question about Mirror Image (yes, this spell again XD).

A player of mine wanted to intimidate a crowd and thought of the following trick.

Casting Mirror Image on self, THEN Enlarge self.

My comprehension of Mirror Image has always been that the replicas are made at the cast then don't "evolve". So whether same caster uses Enlarge, Alter Self, Invisibility or what not the images will always stay identical and visible.
(I did allow what the player thought would happen aka "Enlarged Duplicates", but just this one time for fun and warned him of what my normal ruling would be).

1. Would you agree with my interpretation of RAW (post-Mirror Image use of self-altering spell doesn't change duplicates)? Would you usually override it anyways per ROC?

Now my second question.
2. IF in the contrary, player casts "other" spell first then Mirror Image (ex Alter Self/Enlarge), do we agree that those Mirror Image would be made from that altered aspect/size? Seems obvious to me but I'd like to be sure.
Following question: if we all agree on "yes" on second question (ex: I'm a human, I cast Enlarge then Mirror Image, I now have three Large illusions around), then do you agree that when concentration spell ends, only the caster (and not duplicates) returns to normal?

4. In case you can make Enlarged Duplicates work, how do you manage the space they take?

Thanks in advance for your feedback. I was kinda embarrassed by this particular use-case because I didn't know how to rule the "encumberance" of enlarged duplicates: player cast it into a tavern, with chairs and tables. I avoided trouble by saying he cast from middle of room with enough empty space around, but had honestly no idea on what best to rule this (illusions being "through" furnitures? Then it's useless. Illusions staying in same space as caster? Then it's like Blur).

1) The Spell creates duplicates that foil Attacks. If you are creating, or denying, some attribute that renders the spell useless or overpowered- then you are doing it wrong.

So, If you enlarge yourself while using Mirror Image, the duplicates it creates should adjust so that the spell can function how it is written.

2) See #1.

So no, if Enlarge is used after Mirror Image is, and runs out before, the only way to use Mirror Image as Written is for the spell to adjust both times to Enlarge. The same is true for any spell, or external affect (like an arrow in your arm).

3) ...4?) Space really is not an issue. The spell says it shares your space, and the duplicates move around. In my minds eye its just a matter of the images stepping through the caster and one another, making it impossible to know just which is which when using Attacks.

Edit to add: I do not think the combination of Mirror Image and Enlarge would grant much of a bonus to Intimidate. Maybe a +2 circumstantial because fully buffed generally means Looking for a fight, depends on how its RP'd.

[Ganymede]

However, setting up paint is bringing an "external cause/effect" onto caster and duplicates. I would indeed certainly rule that only caster is affected. I don't think it's a nerf either because you are supposing here an enemy that...
a) Understands it's a magical effect (so far not too difficult).
b) Knows how it works (meaning a caster basically in most cases, or an intelligent creature that works/is instructed by a caster).
c) Has prepared different ways to counter it just in case.

A more apt example would be simply stabbing the caster; now only one of them has a bloody stab wound. Even more simply, harm the caster with AoE damage. Now only one of them is singed/covered in soot/otherwise visibly harmed, and the benefits of Mirror Image don't even counter it.

Is that what you're really going for? The spell being made redundant as soon as the caster is visibly wounded?

[BurgerBeast]

Don’t worry I won’t linger, here. I’ll say my opinion and leave it at that.

For me it comes down to the spell description of mirror image, specifically: “...so it’s impossible to tell which image is real.”

In my opinion the images must look exactly like the caster at all times, because if they do not, then it is not impossible to tell which image is real, which violates the RAW (in my opinion) of mirror image.

[Keravath]

Personally, I would rule that the mirror images are exactly that. They are mirror images of the current state of the caster until the spell ends.

Here are some good reasons why it should work that way.

1) An opponent throws a bag of flour ... does this counter the entire spell because only the real image gets covered?

2) In combat, an attacker lands a strike on the original. This will usually leave some sort of indication of a hit - scratch on armor, blood etc - from now on the original would be marked and the duplicates useless since you can tell the original apart.

3) It is raining or snowing. Is only the original image affected?

Anyway, the spell says it produces illusory duplicates ... it mimics movement and shifts position so that "it's impossible to track which image is real." This aspect of the spell is broken if the duplicates can ever look any different from the original. So I would say that the spell implies that the duplicates have to always look like the original or otherwise it would not be impossible to track the real image.

[Asmotherion]

The images mimic the original's movements and actions, so I think it's reasonable to assume that they mimic magical alterations, too.

This.

When in doubt question the "core nature of the spell". That in the intention of the spell if you were to explain it in a few words to a friend that's never played D&D.

The "Depiction" it gets is "illusion duplicates". The core idea behind the spell is that those duplicates are indistinguishable from the original no matter what they do. it's part of it's magic. A "Mirror image" implies it acts as a reflection of sorts.

So naturally if they get enlarged they enlarge with them in the same way that if the original polymorphs himself they do the same.

[PeteNutButter]

Definitely on board to say the images completely mimic the caster, regardless of what changes. That is both RAW and seems to be RAI.

On a balance perspective, the spell is good, but not at all in need of any nerf/limitation. Best case scenario it prevents 3 hits. It's an action to cast and a second level spell. Shield spell can prevents as many or more hits and is only 1st level and just a reaction. If you have time to buff its a good spell, but I rarely cast on characters that have it. Combats tend to be so short it's not worth losing one of your ~3 rounds casting a defensive spell on par with shield.

[Dalebert]

Sidenote: If you're a high level illusionist (14th I think) you can make something your images is wearing or carrying real for a minute with a bonus action. I still haven't figured out a cool exploit for this. Mostly it's just amusing. For instance, what if you make an image's robe real? The rest of the image is still just an illusion so the robe would fall to the ground. Would that image be naked?

[Malifice]

They look and move the same as the caster. If the caster moves, they move.

If the caster puts on a red cardigan, they put on a red cardigan. If the caster shaves off his hair, glues on a fake moustache and stands on his hands, the images shave off their hair, glue on a fake moustache and stand on their hands.

Ditto if the caster becomes invisble. It makes the spell kind of useless when you (and they) are invisible.

[Citan]

@all: there is a clear consensus here about Mirror Image being "updated" in real-time, so I'll follow it. Thanks all.

Just as a side-note

1) The Spell creates duplicates that foil Attacks. If you are creating, or denying, some attribute that renders the spell useless or overpowered- then you are doing it wrong.

So, If you enlarge yourself while using Mirror Image, the duplicates it creates should adjust so that the spell can function how it is written.

2) See #1.

So no, if Enlarge is used after Mirror Image is, and runs out before, the only way to use Mirror Image as Written is for the spell to adjust both times to Enlarge. The same is true for any spell, or external affect (like an arrow in your arm).

3) ...4?) Space really is not an issue. The spell says it shares your space, and the duplicates move around. In my minds eye its just a matter of the images stepping through the caster and one another, making it impossible to know just which is which when using Attacks.

Edit to add: I do not think the combination of Mirror Image and Enlarge would grant much of a bonus to Intimidate. Maybe a +2 circumstantial because fully buffed generally means Looking for a fight, depends on how its RP'd.
1. No need to be rude about it, it's a very non-constructive thing to do. It's precisely because I was wondering if I was doing right or wrong that I came and asked. I don't care much myself, but if you always intervene in threads in such a manner, know that you may brush off people into stopping asking for help/advice, which is overall a loss for everyone.
And considering how many threads about Mirror Image interactions with other things popped in this forum, I daresay it was not as crystal clear as you make it sound.

2. When someone casts Mirror Image + Enlarge in a tavern crowded by peasants (people who know at most how to brawl and have no way to be knowledgeable in magic and usually view it as "unknown dangerous"), I can assure you that this is an Intimidating effect.


They look and move the same as the caster. If the caster moves, they move.

If the caster puts on a red cardigan, they put on a red cardigan. If the caster shaves off his hair, glues on a fake moustache and stands on his hands, the images shave off their hair, glue on a fake moustache and stand on their hands.

Ditto if the caster becomes invisble. It makes the spell kind of useless when you (and they) are invisible.
I disagree on that. I always put it aside because of how I viewed the spell interacting with other effects, but think about it from another point of view: since you are still rolling to choose whether attacker targets illusion, and since illusions are invisible, then obviously the attack roll is made at disadvantage. So your duplicates are much more durable than before.

It's not good enough of a benefit to decide to make a build around this alone, but for characters that usually buff themselves with Greater Invisibility to attack and also have Mirror Image in their options, this makes for a good synergy. :)
Makes the spell actually usable even with low Dexterity.

[Erys]

@all: there is a clear consensus here about Mirror Image being "updated" in real-time, so I'll follow it. Thanks all.

Just as a side-note

1. No need to be rude about it, it's a very non-constructive thing to do. It's precisely because I was wondering if I was doing right or wrong that I came and asked. I don't care much myself, but if you always intervene in threads in such a manner, know that you may brush off people into stopping asking for help/advice, which is overall a loss for everyone.
And considering how many threads about Mirror Image interactions with other things popped in this forum, I daresay it was not as crystal clear as you make it sound.

2. When someone casts Mirror Image + Enlarge in a tavern crowded by peasants (people who know at most how to brawl and have no way to be knowledgeable in magic and usually view it as "unknown dangerous"), I can assure you that this is an Intimidating effect.


1) If you take it as rude, that is on you.

Spells like this one only have contention when people start to creatively interpret it, and in the process change the spell (usually by adding new layers). If people stopped doing that, what Mirror Image does is actually crystal clear.

2) I don't know if I agree with this assessment (how magic savvy the peasants are varies region to region and table to table). If the RP was good enough (and it made sense for the region) I might hook a player up with a bonus.

[Zanthy1]

So I see that this was answered already, but wanted to add my voice in because I love the spell Mirror Image.

If enlarge was cast first, then the copies would be enlarged. If the caster then shrunk, the copies wouldn't. I always rule the copies as mimicing everything the player does action wise, but their size and such are unchanged from creation. Like if the caster used wild shape or polymorph and mirror image, the images wouldn't change from humanoid to beast (though they may still get on all 4s and act like a beast).

However if the caster puts up mirror image, then removes their hood, I would obviously rule the copies to do the same.

To sum: The mirrored copies do everything the caster does with its body, but as they are unreal cannot be changed in a physical (or even magical) sense once cast.

[Citan]

1) If you take it as rude, that is on you.

Spells like this one only have contention when people start to creatively interpret it, and in the process change the spell (usually by adding new layers). If people stopped doing that, what Mirror Image does is actually crystal clear.

2) I don't know if I agree with this assessment (how magic savvy the peasants are varies region to region and table to table). If the RP was good enough (and it made sense for the region) I might hook a player up with a bonus.
You were rude, whether you realize it or not is up to you. You implied a judgement on your sentence on ability to DM of the people you answer to. Whatever your inner opinion may be, you are just putting on defensive for nothing.
Being short, you want to display your value by undermining the other's.
I don't care really how you take it, I don't care myself, but it's a simple communication fact.

However, I'm laughing when you say it's crystal clear... Yeah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579479-Mirror-Image-and-Protection-Fighting-Style&highlight=mirror+image), right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569675-Mirror-Images-AoE-damage-Magic-Missile-and-such&highlight=mirror+image).



So I see that this was answered already, but wanted to add my voice in because I love the spell Mirror Image.

If enlarge was cast first, then the copies would be enlarged. If the caster then shrunk, the copies wouldn't. I always rule the copies as mimicing everything the player does action wise, but their size and such are unchanged from creation. Like if the caster used wild shape or polymorph and mirror image, the images wouldn't change from humanoid to beast (though they may still get on all 4s and act like a beast).

However if the caster puts up mirror image, then removes their hood, I would obviously rule the copies to do the same.

To sum: The mirrored copies do everything the caster does with its body, but as they are unreal cannot be changed in a physical (or even magical) sense once cast.
Thanks for your feedback, I feel less alone. :smallbiggrin:

[Erys]

You were rude, whether you realize it or not is up to you. You implied a judgement on your sentence on ability to DM of the people you answer to. Whatever your inner opinion may be, you are just putting on defensive for nothing.
Being short, you want to display your value by undermining the other's.
I don't care really how you take it, I don't care myself, but it's a simple communication fact.

However, I'm laughing when you say it's crystal clear... Yeah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579479-Mirror-Image-and-Protection-Fighting-Style&highlight=mirror+image), right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569675-Mirror-Images-AoE-damage-Magic-Missile-and-such&highlight=mirror+image).

One of those threads is like most, where people are trying to add elements to the spell and wondering why it no longer works as written.

The second, how it interacts with Protection Style was a valid inquiry, and surprising answer. But this was a case where the interaction of the Fighting Style was questioned. Not Mirror Image.

But if bringing up flawed proofs makes you chuckle, go for it...

The bottom line remains the same: If you take the Spell Mirror Image, and don't add or subtract elements based on internal bias/belief, the spell is completely cut and dry. If you don't like me pointing this out in a matter-of-fact manner, well... I don't know what to tell you... How you interpret text largely falls on you.

[BurgerBeast]

“Erys” is the ancient Elvish word for irony in my campaign setting. However, there are at least three words in that language, which all more or less translate as “irony.”

“Erys” is different from the others in that it specifically refers to irony which is unintended on the part of the speaker.

It is not humorous, though. It’s not derogatory, or intended to ridicule. It is treated as extremely serious - you might even say it is grave.

[ChiefBigFeather]

I disagree on that. I always put it aside because of how I viewed the spell interacting with other effects, but think about it from another point of view: since you are still rolling to choose whether attacker targets illusion, and since illusions are invisible, then obviously the attack roll is made at disadvantage. So your duplicates are much more durable than before.

It's not good enough of a benefit to decide to make a build around this alone, but for characters that usually buff themselves with Greater Invisibility to attack and also have Mirror Image in their options, this makes for a good synergy. :)
Makes the spell actually usable even with low Dexterity.
I don't quite get that. I would think that the doubles are purely visual effects. So if any attacker is not relying on sight, they can't be fooled.

Mirror image is always usable. Trading an action and a spellslot for 3 attacks is usually a really good deal.

I always though the illusory images are created by some magical mirroring effect, so they are actual mirror images of the caster.

[guachi]

I'd certainly say that the mirror images look and act like whatever the caster is at the moment.

Caster waves his hands? Images wave their hands.
Caster jumps? Images jump.
Caster puts on his blue suede shoes? Images put on their blue suede shoes.
Caster in enlarged? Images are enlarged.

Otherwise you end up with images that mimic one part of the caster - his movements - but not another part of the caster - his appearance.