fight between incorporeal creatures

[Calthropstu]

How do incorporeal undead fight each other? They are healed by negative energy, and are immune to ability drain. So two wraiths literally cannot deal damage.

[unseenmage]

How do incorporeal undead fight each other? They are healed by negative energy, and are immune to ability drain. So two wraiths literally cannot deal damage.

Epic rap battle?

Manipulate the heroes into killing their rival?

Hug it out? Wait... nevermind.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Incorporeal creatures fight one another normally, using natural weapons or manufactured weapons (which are incorporeal as long as they are wielded by an incorporeal creature). Incorporeal creatures use Charisma instead of Strength when tripping or grappling another incorporeal creature (and arguably also bull rushing), and Dexterity for their melee attacks. Libris Mortis page 140.

[Calthropstu]

Incorporeal creatures fight one another normally, using natural weapons or manufactured weapons (which are incorporeal as long as they are wielded by an incorporeal creature). Incorporeal creatures use Charisma instead of Strength when tripping or grappling another incorporeal creature (and arguably also bull rushing), and Dexterity for their melee attacks. Libris Mortis page 140.

Pathfinder, not 3.5.

[Andreaz]

Little changes, thankfully.

[Crake]

How do incorporeal undead fight each other? They are healed by negative energy, and are immune to ability drain. So two wraiths literally cannot deal damage.

Negative energy actually doesn't automatically heal undead, it only heals them if it says so, and a wraith's con damage is actually a carrier effect ontop of a flat 1d4 untyped damage (or 2d6 for a dread wraith), so wraiths could definitely kill each other, same for ghosts with their corrupting touch, but you're right, some undead are incapable of affecting each other, like for example shadows, who's strength damage is all their touch does.

[Geddy2112]

Negative energy actually doesn't automatically heal undead, it only heals them if it says so, and a wraith's con damage is actually a carrier effect ontop of a flat 1d4 untyped damage (or 2d6 for a dread wraith), so wraiths could definitely kill each other, same for ghosts with their corrupting touch, but you're right, some undead are incapable of affecting each other, like for example shadows, who's strength damage is all their touch does.

Undead are immune to damage to their physical ability scores, so a wraith could not deal con damage to another wraith. Ghosts deal corrupting touch as a form of aging damage. Creatures immune to magical aging are immune to a ghost's corrupting touch. I can't find any raw to support this, but ghosts and undead don't age...magical spells do age them though so I suppose they could.

[Calthropstu]

I am having a serious problem threatening one of my players. He created a bullette bloody skeleton which he crawls inside and then possesses a wraith he has controlled in order to fly around virtually untouchable.

Since he is fighting incorporeal undead, he is pretty much untouchable this way.

To be fair, however, I have had to fudge twice last session to avoid turning the paladin (whose player was not present) into a wraith.

Essentially, the gravewalker witch is walking around with impunity, but without him it will quickly become tpk. Dunno if it's really a problem right now.

[daremetoidareyo]

I am having a serious problem threatening one of my players. He created a bullette bloody skeleton which he crawls inside and then possesses a wraith he has controlled in order to fly around virtually untouchable.

Since he is fighting incorporeal undead, he is pretty much untouchable this way.

To be fair, however, I have had to fudge twice last session to avoid turning the paladin (whose player was not present) into a wraith.

Essentially, the gravewalker witch is walking around with impunity, but without him it will quickly become tpk. Dunno if it's really a problem right now.

Throw some turn undead boosters at the paladin?

[Crake]

Undead are immune to damage to their physical ability scores, so a wraith could not deal con damage to another wraith. Ghosts deal corrupting touch as a form of aging damage. Creatures immune to magical aging are immune to a ghost's corrupting touch. I can't find any raw to support this, but ghosts and undead don't age...magical spells do age them though so I suppose they could.

Correct, but wraiths do 1d4 damage PLUS con damage, they can still do the regular damage to each other.

[zlefin]

it looks like it's just an extremely favorable matchup with immunity or nigh-immunity for the grave witch.

looking over the rules from a pedantic standpoint; it's unclear whether the negative energy attacks of a wraith can or cannot hurt another wraith. unlike other sources it doesn't include a rider specifying that; and the entry for the undead type merely says negative energy can heal undead, which doesn't necessarily mean it always does.

it's also the case that the rules for the game aren't perfectly thought out for every situation, and the design of the game is heavily-biased towards PCs and what they encounter. It's possible the designers never thought of this situation and having to address it.
one could simply rule that incorporeal undead are also capable of hurting other incorporeal undead in some direct manner that wouldn't apply in a more normal situation. if I were to do so, I'd make upa rule that lets them use unarmed strike damage (and lets it be lethal instead of nonlethal) vs other incorporeals. then it'd be very low damage, but it wouldn't be total immunity.

[Geddy2112]

I am having a serious problem threatening one of my players. He created a bullette bloody skeleton which he crawls inside and then possesses a wraith he has controlled in order to fly around virtually untouchable.

Since he is fighting incorporeal undead, he is pretty much untouchable this way.

To be fair, however, I have had to fudge twice last session to avoid turning the paladin (whose player was not present) into a wraith.

Essentially, the gravewalker witch is walking around with impunity, but without him it will quickly become tpk. Dunno if it's really a problem right now.

This is only a problem against other incorporeal undead. Creatures could easily kill the bullette and the body inside, or the wraith. The wraith gets a save each day to throw the bonethrall control. The witch can just spam it again and again till the wraith is back under the leash, but if it breaks it could escape or kill the witch. Very dangerous if the witch is asleep.

This is not all that gamebreaking for the level though.

[Calthropstu]

This is only a problem against other incorporeal undead. Creatures could easily kill the bullette and the body inside, or the wraith. The wraith gets a save each day to throw the bonethrall control. The witch can just spam it again and again till the wraith is back under the leash, but if it breaks it could escape or kill the witch. Very dangerous if the witch is asleep.

This is not all that gamebreaking for the level though.

Fair. It's just a tad frustrating. And it's not like the undead are a long term enemy... they're just clearing out some space to put refugees.

[Geddy2112]

Fair. It's just a tad frustrating. And it's not like the undead are a long term enemy... they're just clearing out some space to put refugees.

Gravewalker witches shine in scenarios like this; throwing undead at them might as well be giving them leadership as a free feat. Eventually they will leave, their creations and pets will die, and they will be up against enemies that their archetype heavily invests in countering.