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Machete
2007-09-26, 11:49 AM
Best feats, worst feats, most powerful classes. All good but some are limited by choices.

Skills are fairly universal, especially to rogues, factotums, and the like.

What are some of the most powerful skills and WHY?

Perhaps the top 5?

Yeril
2007-09-26, 12:17 PM
Bluff.

Any skill that can allow you to say. "Don't be silly theres no one here.. just me and Im a bush!" and people beleive you needs to be classed as overpowered.

Diplomacy too. if Maxed by level 14-15 you can litteraly make even the most evil demon generals team up with you as a full round action without fail.

"Rargh Ima dragon I eat you!"
"Hastened diplomacy check! lets see I get this much from my ranks.. -10 from hastening.. and oh no Ive rolled a one.. lets see that addsup to.... 52. hes now my best friend, hello best friend can I have your treasure."
"Sure thing best friend!"

Darrin
2007-09-26, 12:20 PM
What are some of the most powerful skills and WHY?


Forgery.

Why? Because it's resisted by a skill nobody takes... Forgery.

* Get out of jail free card
* Arrest warrants for your dearest enemies
* Bank notes/cheques/withdrawal slips = free gold
* Shopkeepers: "I'm here to pick up that order of mithril full plate..."
* Military: Troop deployments, duty rosters, marching orders, KP duty, equipment requisitions
* Royal Proclamations
etc.

PlatinumJester
2007-09-26, 12:24 PM
Forgery, UMD, Concentration, Bluff and Diplomacy.

Zherog
2007-09-26, 12:27 PM
Diplomacy In my opinion, this is by far the most crazy-town skill, assuming you use the core rules as written. By level 5, 6 at the latest, you can make everybody your bestest friend and get get favors and all sorts of crap.

Tumble It completely negates movement attack of opportunities. When you get towards level 10-ish, you'll even be able to do so at full speed, without repercussions.

Forgery As mentioned by Darrin, is very good when you apply a little bit of creativity to it.

Use Magic Device After Diplomacy, this is number two in line to enter crazy-town. The stuff you can pull off with this skill is mind boggling.

Those are my top 4.

skywalker
2007-09-26, 12:31 PM
Bluff.

Any skill that can allow you to say. "Don't be silly theres no one here.. just me and Im a bush!" and people beleive you needs to be classed as overpowered.

Diplomacy too. if Maxed by level 14-15 you can litteraly make even the most evil demon generals team up with you as a full round action without fail.

"Rargh Ima dragon I eat you!"
"Hastened diplomacy check! lets see I get this much from my ranks.. -10 from hastening.. and oh no Ive rolled a one.. lets see that addsup to.... 52. hes now my best friend, hello best friend can I have your treasure."
"Sure thing best friend!"

Most DMs aren't going to allow that sort of power. Rule 0 and all that.

My top 5:
1.UMD, for sure.
2.Concentration
3.Spellcraft
4.Tumble
5.Perform

That's just my list. Not saying it's right or that it's the best or trying to start an argument.

Drider
2007-09-26, 12:36 PM
Forgery, UMD, Concentration, Bluff and Diplomacy.

Change out forgery for disguise, and you can actually bluff someone to believe your a bush(but most dms just let you roll bluff, and say you're a bush that looks like an adventurer)

Fax Celestis
2007-09-26, 12:39 PM
There are so many things you can do with UMD it is utterly ridiculous.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-09-26, 12:41 PM
Where is the love for the Rogue Five:?
Hide
Move Silently
Spot
Listen
Search

They can all be used untrained, but training them is usually a very good option.

kjones
2007-09-26, 12:43 PM
Do epic uses of skills count? Because epic Perform can do the same things as Diplomacy...

Rockphed
2007-09-26, 12:44 PM
Being disguised as a bush and having bluff to convince people that you are a magic bush would rock!

Wait, does Skill Mastery mean that a rogue can take 10 on UMD checks?

Lapak
2007-09-26, 12:45 PM
Change out forgery for disguise, and you can actually bluff someone to believe your a bush(but most dms just let you roll bluff, and say you're a bush that looks like an adventurer)I question the 'most DMs' part of that. Especially as bushes don't talk, pushing it from 'almost too incredible to consider' into 'actually impossible to consider, bluff automatically fails' territory.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-26, 12:49 PM
UMD is nothing compared to the mighty Spellcraft. Why? Spellcraft is the skill that powers the over-the-top, cheesy-as-hell, so-broken-your-DM-may-cry-if-he/she-hasn't-paid-attention system that is Epic Spells...And Epic Spells can do anything. Literally...like say...reduce all of a Diplomancer's ranks into a negative...which reminds me, there needs to be a bad opposite to fanatic...

Douglas
2007-09-26, 12:50 PM
A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less)
That "I'm a bush" bluff might get someone to ignore you for a moment, but 1 round later he'll be back and the same bluff won't work the second time.

Indon
2007-09-26, 12:51 PM
Diplomacy too. if Maxed by level 14-15 you can litteraly make even the most evil demon generals team up with you as a full round action without fail.

"Rargh Ima dragon I eat you!"
"Hastened diplomacy check! lets see I get this much from my ranks.. -10 from hastening.. and oh no Ive rolled a one.. lets see that addsup to.... 52. hes now my best friend, hello best friend can I have your treasure."
"Sure thing best friend!"

"Helpful" does not mean "Gives you things" (generally). It might mean "Giving you directions out of the cave", or even "Is willing to trade with you at a discount", and in most cases "Is willing to hire your services as an adventurer".

It doesn't even always mean "Not going to try to kill you," but it generally means "Will apologize while killing you."

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-26, 12:52 PM
If I remember, when a bard hits rolls of 35 with Perform, if he plays long enough, gods will come down to listen to him. That sounds like fun.

What are the uses of spellcraft for a non-arcane PC? Is it still worth much of anything?

ANyway, my favorite skill: Profession (Taxidermy).

Zherog
2007-09-26, 12:56 PM
Wait, does Skill Mastery mean that a rogue can take 10 on UMD checks?

In my opinion, yes.

In the sage's opinion, no.

Jasdoif
2007-09-26, 01:00 PM
What are the uses of spellcraft for a non-arcane PC? Is it still worth much of anything?You can identify... a spell as it's being cast a spell that's in place that an object was made by a particular spell a spell that you've saved against a scroll or potionYou can also understand strange or unique magical effects, although this one depends on the existence of such effects in the game.

valadil
2007-09-26, 01:04 PM
If you're going by the book, diplomacy is going to win hands down. That said, I've never seen a DM run diplomacy that way. We usually roleplay it out and then see if dip can give a bonus if a player isn't convincing enough on their own.

That aside, UMD is ridiculous. I've got a bard with UMD in the high 30s. I've stopped using my own spells in combat and pretty much just burn through scrolls given to me by the wizard and cleric as needed.

Querzis
2007-09-26, 01:12 PM
Bluff.

Any skill that can allow you to say. "Don't be silly theres no one here.. just me and Im a bush!" and people beleive you needs to be classed as overpowered.

Diplomacy too. if Maxed by level 14-15 you can litteraly make even the most evil demon generals team up with you as a full round action without fail.

"Rargh Ima dragon I eat you!"
"Hastened diplomacy check! lets see I get this much from my ranks.. -10 from hastening.. and oh no Ive rolled a one.. lets see that addsup to.... 52. hes now my best friend, hello best friend can I have your treasure."
"Sure thing best friend!"

Well if you use it like that it sure is overpowered...but except if the people you are talking too have 3 int and 3 wis, it just wont ever work. There is nothing magical about those skills so the people you are talking too wont become incredibly stupid just because you are using those skills.

Bluff make you convincing, when you have enough rank in it you can convince people of just about everything...as long as it still make sense and is possible. For example, if you are arrested for killing someone and then, you say to the judge how you liked that guy really much, how he was your chilhood friends and that you would never harm him while there is about a 10 witness that can say you meet him yesterday well it wont help you much. Or even better, you say: «John was my best friend ever» «His name was Jim» «...well damn.» Players keep saying stupid mistake like that when they try to bluff someone because they dont pay enough attention to the game, well the NPC his paying attention to everything you say so as long as hes smart enough, he wont believe an obvious lie no matter how convincing you are.

And even with 50 rank in diplomacy, the best you can get from a dragon that wanna eat your party his: «I really dont taste good and I got lots of cholesterol, how about you just eat them but let me live? You dont want to become fat now do you?» «Well ok then but dont come here again».

Closet_Skeleton
2007-09-26, 01:13 PM
Spellcraft for Epic Magic becomes the strongest but pre-epic it's mainly for counterspelling.

Tumble is very powerful though. For every 5 ranks you get a bonus when fighting defensively. It also lets you survive falls and move around in combat.

Social skills are the ones that'll hand you the world with a cherry on top though.

Lapak
2007-09-26, 01:29 PM
That "I'm a bush" bluff might get someone to ignore you for a moment, but 1 round later he'll be back and the same bluff won't work the second time.The 'or less' part you quoted is significant, too. A successful 'I'm a bush that looks like an adventurer' could be ruled as a split-second moment of fuddlement. I'd maybe give the master bluffer a surprise action if he wanted to initiate combat at that instant (sort of a Feint-equivalent), but I wouldn't make the guard ignore him or anything.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-09-26, 01:39 PM
Diplomacy: read the thread.

Spellcraft: read the thread.

Knowledge (Nature, Religion): What everyone forgets is that these also give you epic spells.

Forgery: read the thread.

Use Magic Device: read the thread.

Iaijutsu Focus: It can be used untrained, which everyone forgets, to add a good deal of damage. Plus, Iaijutsu Master absolutely breaks it.

Autohypnosis: A DC 20 check will let you do several things it normally takes a feat to accomplish.

hippie_dwarf
2007-09-26, 01:39 PM
Autohypnosis. Why? well meaxed out at about level 5/6/7...

1. Near immune to fear
2. Stop yourself from dying
3. Redues the affects of poison (resists secondary affects)

Plus how cool is it that caltrops don't slow you down?

Thanatos 51-50
2007-09-26, 01:43 PM
More effective than "I'm a bush" might be:
"The weapons? They're just props. I'm an actor."

The_Werebear
2007-09-26, 01:45 PM
I need to second Spellcraft, for the production of tasty epic spells.

Diplomacy can do horrible, horrible things, as can Bluff.

Concentration can allow you to avoid AoO's, and loosing spells, which is always powerful.

UMD turns rogues and bards into Batman Wizards.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-26, 01:56 PM
1) UMD, hands down.
2) Diplomacy, but only if your DM is stupid enough to use the RAW on that.
3) Bluff, solid skill and synergizes to everything
4) Stealth (hide/move silently), highly practical if you can get them
5) Concentration, essential for nearly every spellcaster

Perform is only useful for bards, really, hence it doesn't make the top-five.
Perception skills (spot/listen/search/sense motive) are useful, but only one person in the party really needs them.
Many of the other skills are highly situational and not really used all that often, with a few exceptions such as Tumble.
And I didn't count the "epic spell enablers" since most campaigns don't go epic in the first place.

tannish2
2007-09-26, 02:14 PM
The 'or less' part you quoted is significant, too. A successful 'I'm a bush that looks like an adventurer' could be ruled as a split-second moment of fuddlement. I'd maybe give the master bluffer a surprise action if he wanted to initiate combat at that instant (sort of a Feint-equivalent), but I wouldn't make the guard ignore him or anything.

nope, but the gaurd DOES get +25 on his sense motive to realize its a lie. maybe its 30.

Bassetking
2007-09-26, 02:18 PM
UMD is nothing compared to the mighty Spellcraft. Why? Spellcraft is the skill that powers the over-the-top, cheesy-as-hell, so-broken-your-DM-may-cry-if-he/she-hasn't-paid-attention system that is Epic Spells...And Epic Spells can do anything. Literally...like say...reduce all of a Diplomancer's ranks into a negative...which reminds me, there needs to be a bad opposite to fanatic...

Nothing, MMMMM? Methinks the Basset is going to have to disprove that little caveat...

Bassetking Presents:

Tenth level character using Ninth level spells!

Rogue 10
Int >= 12

Thirteen ranks in UMD. (Based on level) - 13 - 13
Ten ranks from Skill Mastery -10 - 23
Three ranks from Skill Focus - 3 - 26
Ten from a purchased item of +10 UMD (Blah blah blah, No specifically created item exists, The rules for its creation are clearly spelled out, bite me.) - 10 - 36

We're now, with a tenth level rogue, making a >36 UMD check on anything. Including a 1. The UMD check for a 9th level spell being cast by a 17th level caster is... 34.

UMD allows, rules legal, a character to cast Wish at level 10.

*NOTE*: Yes, I realize the staggering unlikelyhood that a 10th level character would be able to obtain a scroll of Wish. REGARDLESS of whether or not the world in which your players/any players exist in a "Magic Items Shopping Mall" the mechanics exist to allow this to happen, even if the material support for the consummation of the action is not available. Please; I beg, do not allow this thread to devolve into a "Yuh-HUH" "Nuh-UH" arguement about the ability to create items/the prevalence of magic items/gritty vs. fantastic gameplay. Please.

Mordokai
2007-09-26, 02:30 PM
Concentration can allow you to avoid AoO's, and loosing spells, which is always powerful.

Emphasis mine. Please, explain me, how is this possible. I would like to know it.

Interesting ideas. Keep'em coming :smallbiggrin:

tainsouvra
2007-09-26, 02:36 PM
"Rargh Ima dragon I eat you!"
"Hastened diplomacy check! lets see I get this much from my ranks.. -10 from hastening.. and oh no Ive rolled a one.. lets see that addsup to.... 52. hes now my best friend, hello best friend can I have your treasure."
"Sure thing best friend!"Most DMs aren't going to allow that sort of power. Rule 0 and all that. You don't need Rule 0. It's not a valid use of the skill.

Would you give a new friend everything you own, then life the rest of your short and miserable life in poverty, just because he asked? Diplomacy can make someone into a friend, but you can't use it to make them take actions beyond friendship short of Epic skill usage.

Person_Man
2007-09-26, 02:39 PM
In combat:

UMD
Autohypnosis
Iaijutsu Focus
Truespeak
Tumble

Out of combat (or just before it, depending upon how you roll): It depends. Most of the time I encourage PCs to use Skills creatively to solve problems (i.e., Forgery, Diplomacy, Disguise, Perform, etc). Other times I ambush them or run them through a monster infested dungeon, which render many of the "creative" Skills pretty useless for a few game sessions.

Also, most of the creative Skills tend to focus the game on one player. If I want my Rogue to use Disguise, then Bluff my way past the guards, sneak into the hidden treasure room, Bluff my way past more guards, Silently use Open Locks to get into the vault, use Sleight of Hand to hide the mystical artifact, and then Bluff my way back out again, that's great. But it also prevents any other player from participating in the game for long periods of time. So if you have a player who likes to use creative Skills a lot, I find that its important to have EVERY player using Skills and/or magic together, rather then just having the Skill Monkey monopolize gameplay from time to time.

Jasdoif
2007-09-26, 02:48 PM
Ten ranks from Skill Mastery -10 - 23Skill Mastery doesn't give you a bonus on your checks, it allows you to take 10 even if stress or distractions would prevent it (we can get into whether this lets you take 10 with UMD later)


Ten from a purchased item of +10 UMD (Blah blah blah, No specifically created item exists, The rules for its creation are clearly spelled out, bite me.) - 10 - 36Where are these rules for its creation?


The UMD check for a 9th level spell being cast by a 17th level caster is... 34.The check to decipher the scroll is 34. The check to activate it is 20 + caster level, or 37.


Now, maybe you're looking for something like this:

13 ranks in UMD
+3 for Charisma (Cha 17, starting with 15 and boosted at 4th and 8th level)
+3 for Skill Focus
+2 for Magical Aptitude
+2 synergy (with scrolls) for 5 ranks in Decipher Script
+2 synergy (with scrolls) for 5 ranks in Spellcraft

That's +25. The UMD DC for activating a basic scroll of eagle's splendor is 23. Auto-pass. (OK, the DC to decipher the scroll is 27, so you'd fail that one if you roll a 1. Big deal, you don't lose the scroll if you fail to decipher it.)

With the bonus to Charisma from the spell, your UMD modifier is now +27. You have a 55% chance of activating a scroll of wish. Or if your DM allows Skill Mastery with UMD, you can simply take 10.

Arbitrarity
2007-09-26, 02:49 PM
Epic bluff is useful, if tricky to pull off :smallbiggrin:

*Glibness*

(Crazy. +20?) Oh dear sir, I have bad news. Your coins are forgeries. I'm from the Crown Mint, and I must take these coins to be destroyed, to prevent inflation. Worry not, I'll be back in a few weeks to bring you replacements, as this is part of a government program. (Epic +50 DC usage) Now, just hand them over... thank you again sir, for doing your duty.

Saph
2007-09-26, 02:50 PM
Use Magic Device is awesome at mid-to-high levels, though it's not really worth using unless your total bonus is +15 or higher.

Concentration and Spellcraft are obviously essential, but they're practically class features for spellcasters anyway.

Tumble is one of the most versatile skills around. If it wasn't for the fact that you can't use it in anything heavier than light armour, every fighting class in the game would take it.

Spot and Listen haven't come up yet - I find they're very handy, especially in situations where you can't count on someone else to use them for you.

Autohypnosis is another great all-round skill, but generally only included in games with psionics.

- Saph

leperkhaun
2007-09-26, 02:51 PM
You don't need Rule 0. It's not a valid use of the skill.

Would you give a new friend everything you own, then life the rest of your short and miserable life in poverty, just because he asked? Diplomacy can make someone into a friend, but you can't use it to make them take actions beyond friendship short of Epic skill usage.

With a 50 diplomacy check you can change someone's attitude to helpful, while the dragon wont give you everything he owns, he might 1) go with you a bit and kill things for you 2) give you spells 3) give the party selected treasure to aid them on their journy.

Diplomacy is broken if you just take it by the book. Most DMs just dont allow a diplomacy check without taking consideration of the situation.

Heck with a good diplomacy check you can turn all of someone's guards against them.

Zherog
2007-09-26, 02:51 PM
Emphasis mine. Please, explain me, how is this possible. I would like to know it.


It allows a spellcaster to avoid the AoO from casting a spell in a threatened square. It doesn't prevent all AoO.

13_CBS
2007-09-26, 02:57 PM
Wait, what exactly about UMD makes it so powerful? AFAIK it just lets you use wands, staffs, rods, and a few other things, most of which aren't that great (unless I'm really missing something :smalleek: )

Zherog
2007-09-26, 02:59 PM
Tumble is one of the most versatile skills around. If it wasn't for the fact that you can't use it in anything heavier than light armour, every fighting class in the game would take it.

Dwarves can use Tumble in heavy armor. :smallwink:

Saph
2007-09-26, 03:08 PM
Wait, what exactly about UMD makes it so powerful? AFAIK it just lets you use wands, staffs, rods, and a few other things, most of which aren't that great (unless I'm really missing something :smalleek: )

Generally, spell completion or spell trigger items (like scrolls or wands) are way cheaper than use-activated items (like potions or wondrous items). So if you want an item that gives you a spell effect, UMD lets you get it for half the price or less.

For instance, let's say you're a Rogue, and want some healing. For 750 gp, you could buy 15 potions of Cure Light Wounds. Or, if you have a good UMD skill, you could buy a 50-charge wand of Cure Light Wounds for the same price. Much more efficient, right?

Use Magic Device also gives you access to things which otherwise you just wouldn't be able to get at all; scrolls of high-level spells, wands, and staffs that can't be bought in use-activated form. And with the other uses of UMD, you can use those items even if you're the wrong class or alignment.

The one drawback with UMD is that your skill modifier needs to be very high - preferably at least +15, and more if you're planning to use risky items.

- Saph

Kyeudo
2007-09-26, 03:10 PM
Wait, what exactly about UMD makes it so powerful? AFAIK it just lets you use wands, staffs, rods, and a few other things, most of which aren't that great (unless I'm really missing something :smalleek: )

Its like mimicing 9th level spellcasting without needing the class levels.

Douglas
2007-09-26, 03:12 PM
Epic bluff is useful, if tricky to pull off :smallbiggrin:

*Glibness*

(Crazy. +20?) Oh dear sir, I have bad news. Your coins are forgeries. I'm from the Crown Mint, and I must take these coins to be destroyed, to prevent inflation. Worry not, I'll be back in a few weeks to bring you replacements, as this is part of a government program. (Epic +50 DC usage) Now, just hand them over... thank you again sir, for doing your duty.
:smallamused:

Now that bluff I would actually allow, if you could beat his sense motive by enough. Word would get out and start giving increasing circumstance bonuses if you kept trying it in again the same area, though, so you'd eventually fail.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-26, 03:36 PM
Emphasis mine. Please, explain me, how is this possible.

"Casting defensively" means you cast without provoking AoOs (except from the rare foe that has the specific feat to counter this), but this requires a concentration check of (iirc) 15 + spell level.

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-26, 03:36 PM
Wait, what exactly about UMD makes it so powerful? AFAIK it just lets you use wands, staffs, rods, and a few other things, most of which aren't that great (unless I'm really missing something :smalleek: )

Essentially, Magic Wins D&D. This is why all of the 'strongest classes' are full spellcasters.

tainsouvra
2007-09-26, 03:49 PM
With a 50 diplomacy check you can change someone's attitude to helpful, while the dragon wont give you everything he owns, he might 1) go with you a bit and kill things for you 2) give you spells 3) give the party selected treasure to aid them on their journy. Helpful, but still within their basic nature. A "helpful" ancient red dragon, sitting on its hoard, might inform the PC's that he does not want them in his sanctum and ask that they meet him outside if they would like to discuss matters further--and become threatening if they don't comply, then aggressive if they continue to ignore his request. He's still dangerously territorial about his treasure, and would be highly insulted if the PC's requested anything from it...and he's still Evil. His basic nature doesn't change, only his attitude toward the PC's. This can dramatically change an encounter, but it doesn't give them a dime from the dragon on its own, nor does it necessarily ensure their safety if they don't respond appropriately.
Diplomacy is broken if you just take it by the book. Most DMs just dont allow a diplomacy check without taking consideration of the situation. Actually, the biggest problem with Diplomacy is people overestimating its effects. Just because someone is has a helpful attitude toward you doesn't mean his alignment, motivations, values, etc will change. In certain limited circumstances, it might not even dissuade him from attacking, it will just make him apologetic about it. Diplomacy is powerful, no question, but it's not as extensive as it is often construed as being.
Heck with a good diplomacy check you can turn all of someone's guards against them. Example? I would think this is highly circumstantial and not a general occurrence.

sikyon
2007-09-26, 03:59 PM
Helpful, but still within their basic nature. A "helpful" ancient red dragon, sitting on its hoard, might inform the PC's that he does not want them in his sanctum and ask that they meet him outside if they would like to discuss matters further--and become threatening if they don't comply, then aggressive if they continue to ignore his request. He's still dangerously territorial about his treasure, and would be highly insulted if the PC's requested anything from it...and he's still Evil. His basic nature doesn't change, only his attitude toward the PC's. This can dramatically change an encounter, but it doesn't give them a dime from the dragon on its own, nor does it necessarily ensure their safety if they don't respond appropriately. Actually, the biggest problem with Diplomacy is people overestimating its effects. Just because someone is has a helpful attitude toward you doesn't mean his alignment, motivations, values, etc will change. In certain limited circumstances, it might not even dissuade him from attacking, it will just make him apologetic about it. Diplomacy is powerful, no question, but it's not as extensive as it is often construed as being. Example? I would think this is highly circumstantial and not a general occurrence.

By RAW:

Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid

The Red dragon will Protect you if you ask it to. It will back you up. It will heal you if it can. It will aid you generally. It will risk itself to help you. It doesn't matter if the creature in question has the line "it will never risk itself to help anyone else", this is completely superseded by your diplomacy check.

You're right, his alignment won't change. So if he was good, and you were evil, he would try to protect you without killing the good people. If he is evil and you are good, then he'll just kill your opponents indiscriminately. Alignment and nature won't control WHAT he does to help you, that is goverened by RAW. Alignement and nature will control HOW he does the actions requested of him.

The Red Dragon isn't fanatical, he won't throw himself infront of neutronium golem for you because he doesn't have a change of winning. But if he has a reasonable shot, then he'll help you.

He might not let you take all his treasure at Helpful, but if you ask him for specific help then he would be willing to spend that treasure to help you.

A helpful creature will never attack you. That would be the opposite of protecting you, which is one of the specific actions of helpful by RAW (unless by attacking you it was protecting you)


Example? I would think this is highly circumstantial and not a general occurrence.

A noble comes in and is surrounded by guards. You roll diplomacy. The guards become helpful. Then you say "I am here to kill this noble." "Please back me up." And the guards would help you attack the noble, and then make up a story about how some demon teleported in, killed the noble and how they couldn't stop it and you tried to help.


Really, there is no RP involved in a diplomacy check. It's just a roll of the dice and consequential actions.

LemonSkye
2007-09-26, 04:19 PM
Use Magic Device is great. That and Use Psionic Device are ones that are frequently used in the campaigns that I've been in. Ditto for Tumble.

The ones that are frequently the most useful in all the campaigns that I've been in are the Knowledge skills. It's almost essential that every single one of them is represented somewhere in the party.

I absolutely love Speak Language. I tend to play diplomats and spies, and more often than not, the ability to understand what someone else is saying is more powerful than a Diplomacy check (those are very rarely used in our games).

Mewtarthio
2007-09-26, 04:42 PM
The easiest way to deal with Bluff is just to say that they can't detect any obvious deception. In other words, they believe that you believe what you're saying. If you use the Bluff skill and claim to be a bush and succeed, they'll give you a wide berth 'cause you're clearly insane (at least, for a round or so). If you tell someone that you're actually a Solar in disguise and you need all their possessions in your fight against the forces of evil, you're going to need some proof before they give you anything (my dictionary defines "bluff" as "mislead", not "mind control"). Perhaps it would be better to rename the "Bluff" skill to be "Disguise Motive": They can tell what you're doing (pretending to be a bush), but not why you're doing it (to avoid attention).

Saph
2007-09-26, 05:06 PM
By RAW:

Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid

. . .

Really, there is no RP involved in a diplomacy check. It's just a roll of the dice and consequential actions.

And this is why no-one who isn't completely retarded plays Diplomacy by RAW.

Honestly, all this together actually makes Diplomacy less useful than it would otherwise be. That was why I didn't include it on my list. If Diplomacy was just a reasonable sort of 'make people more friendly' ability you could count on it to be a useful in a game. But because it can be abused so easily DMs will generally just ignore Diplomacy uses completely, which makes putting a lot of effort into improving your Diplomacy skill a waste of time in many games.

- Saph

Chronos
2007-09-26, 05:32 PM
Bassetking Presents:

Tenth level character using Ninth level spells!On the other hand, Chronos presents: First level character using Ninth level spells. All you need is a Ring of Three Wishes. Yeah, Rings of Three Wishes are hard to come by, but then, so are scrolls of Wish.

sikyon
2007-09-26, 05:35 PM
And this is why no-one who isn't completely retarded plays Diplomacy by RAW.

Honestly, all this together actually makes Diplomacy less useful than it would otherwise be. That was why I didn't include it on my list. If Diplomacy was just a reasonable sort of 'make people more friendly' ability you could count on it to be a useful in a game. But because it can be abused so easily DMs will generally just ignore Diplomacy uses completely, which makes putting a lot of effort into improving your Diplomacy skill a waste of time in many games.

- Saph

I ask the DM for a list of houserules before game starts. If they later make up houserules, that's OK, but if it wasn't in the list beforehand then I ask that I am allowed to, say, reinvest those skill points and reverese the current situation/let the current situation play out by RAW.

So for example, the DM forgets to tell me beforehand that diplomacy doesn't exist (I write these down). Later, he tells me that it doesn't work per RAW. I ask that either the current situation be backed up to a point where diplomacy didn't influence my actions, OR that the current diplomacy situation be resolved per RAW and future situations are houseruled. Either way, I ask for a skill point refund.

I think it's fair to ask for skill point refunds if the DM has houserules. It's the DM's world, but it's your character and you should have the information about the world before you make him.

Saph
2007-09-26, 05:44 PM
I think it's fair to ask for skill point refunds if the DM has houserules. It's the DM's world, but it's your character and you should have the information about the world before you make him.

Yes, but it's also fair to expect players to have a minimum of common sense.

If someone told me that they wanted a skill point refund because they'd been expecting Diplomacy to work "as RAW" and seriously thought that they'd be able to make every NPC in the campaign their best buddy by rolling a dice, I'd allow them their refund . . . but I'd also conclude that the player was either very inexperienced or moderately stupid.

- Saph

JackMage666
2007-09-26, 05:49 PM
Gather Information

Seriously, you want to find out the Villian's family? Gather Information. His secret lair? Gather Information. What he got his girlfriend on there 3 year anniversery? You guess it, Gather Information. Who needs bloodshed and violence when you can ask questions in a bar for 1d4 hours.

No, but really, Spot and Listen. Perception is key. Or Search, which allows you to find the pretty magic items the DM wants to give you, but doesn't want you to find without any problems.

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-26, 06:08 PM
Yes, but it's also fair to expect players to have a minimum of common sense.

If someone told me that they wanted a skill point refund because they'd been expecting Diplomacy to work "as RAW" and seriously thought that they'd be able to make every NPC in the campaign their best buddy by rolling a dice, I'd allow them their refund . . . but I'd also conclude that the player was either very inexperienced or moderately stupid.

- Saph

Expecting the DM to tell you about any house rules he may have that completely contradict the rules as presented in the rulebooks is stupid, now?

tainsouvra
2007-09-26, 06:14 PM
The Red dragon will Protect you if you ask it to. It will back you up. It will heal you if it can. It will aid you generally. It will risk itself to help you. It doesn't matter if the creature in question has the line "it will never risk itself to help anyone else", this is completely superseded by your diplomacy check. Explain how that makes any sense at all, though, or where in the rules it actually states this. Non-epic Diplomacy isn't supernatural control, it is not capable of making a creature violate its basic nature, just like any other non-supernatural form of control.
A noble comes in and is surrounded by guards. You roll diplomacy. The guards become helpful. Then you say "I am here to kill this noble." "Please back me up." And the guards would help you attack the noble, and then make up a story about how some demon teleported in, killed the noble and how they couldn't stop it and you tried to help. I take issue with this and do not consider it a reasonable use of Diplomacy. I believe the most Diplomacy could do is get them to quit their job, unless there is more to the story than you are giving (fake noble, etc). "Helpful" does not mean "death wish", and your example is the latter rather than the former. Guards who assisted in the murder of their charge, a member of the nobility at that, would be summarily executed (or, at the least, imprisoned for life) under most governments. Knowing this, the guards would never assist, they would (at most) stand aside by quitting.
Really, there is no RP involved in a diplomacy check. It's just a roll of the dice and consequential actions. This is utterly irrelevant.

tainsouvra
2007-09-26, 06:20 PM
Expecting the DM to tell you about any house rules he may have that completely contradict the rules as presented in the rulebooks is stupid, now? No, but that isn't the claim that was made. The claim was that expecting to subvert almost every encounter in the game with a single skill roll, then being surprised when the DM intervenes to keep the game running, is stupid. Think about it--when the game breaks down, the DM's job is to get it working again, RAW or not, and it's stupid to expect otherwise...and the RAW basis for some of the abusive uses of Diplomacy is shaky at best, on top of it all.

Saph
2007-09-26, 06:47 PM
Expecting the DM to tell you about any house rules he may have that completely contradict the rules as presented in the rulebooks is stupid, now?

No, moderately stupid'. Not very stupid, just, y'know, moderately. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, that wasn't actually what I said. Tanisouvra pretty much covered it already.

- Saph

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-26, 06:57 PM
No, moderately stupid'. Not very stupid, just, y'know, moderately. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, that wasn't actually what I said. Tanisouvra pretty much covered it already.

- Saph

Of course that's not what you said. :smalltongue: But a lot of people seem to have that misconception and I was venting.

And it seemed too good a post to pass up on.

sikyon
2007-09-26, 08:53 PM
Explain how that makes any sense at all, though, or where in the rules it actually states this. Non-epic Diplomacy isn't supernatural control, it is not capable of making a creature violate its basic nature, just like any other non-supernatural form of control.


Did you not read my RAW quote? I will quote it again:


By RAW:

Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid

I could have clarified it.

Attitude: Helpful

Means: Will take risks to help you

Possible Actions: Protect, back up, heal, aid

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

The possible Actions you could make a red dragon do if it was helpful would be:

Protect you from attack

Back you up if you asked it to

Heal you if it could (like use a wand)

Aid you generally

Those were the things I listed.



I take issue with this and do not consider it a reasonable use of Diplomacy. I believe the most Diplomacy could do is get them to quit their job, unless there is more to the story than you are giving (fake noble, etc). "Helpful" does not mean "death wish", and your example is the latter rather than the former. Guards who assisted in the murder of their charge, a member of the nobility at that, would be summarily executed (or, at the least, imprisoned for life) under most governments. Knowing this, the guards would never assist, they would (at most) stand aside by quitting.

That's why I said they would make up a story as to how the noble really died.
I concur, they would not stab him in the back in public, but in private, if they had enough reassurance they wouldn't be caught/you'd help them out then they would.


but I'd also conclude that the player was either very inexperienced or moderately stupid.

Then you would be stupid for ignoring the third conclusion:

The players think YOU are stupid, and you are the subject of their experiment. How far will you let them abuse the rules? How far are you willing to go with RAW? How much can they make the Dungeon Monkey (DM) dance?

Rockphed
2007-09-26, 09:34 PM
Tenth level character using Ninth level spells!

Rogue 10
Int >= 12

Thirteen ranks in UMD. (Based on level) - 13 - 13
Ten ranks from Skill Mastery -10 - 23


Skill mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities) allows a rogue to take ten on a skill check even when stress or distraction would not allow him to do so. By RAW, I am not sure that a rogue can take ten on UMD ever.

So, all you RAW geniuses, does skill mastery allow the taking of ten on UMD checks? By RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm), you can never take ten on a UMD check.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-26, 10:35 PM
No way would the guards help you to fight the noble. Even if you somehow managed to persuade them that it's an imposter, the most they will do is maybe block his escape.

leperkhaun
2007-09-26, 11:31 PM
Example? I would think this is highly circumstantial and not a general occurrence.


If the person relies on their guards for protection and you diplomasis them to not care or look the other way...... all of a sudden he has no protection. While its not the same as making his own guards kill him, if you can just walk into his house...... and they dont tell the guards.....

Anyway as to the red dragon thing, yes he would help you. I disagree with giving away his entire horde, but i belive he would part with SOME of it. the problem is that the diplomacy skill chart MAKES NO ADJUSTMENT based on alignment.

Within the group that i play with we have house rules for Diplomacy and Bluff. This rule is basically that the situation and the NPC's goals/attitude/personality are put into the equation as well as how it is RP'd. That eleminates alot of the abuse of those skills, because acording to RAW there are no limitations to those skills other than how high of a check you can get.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-26, 11:59 PM
It is true that Diplomacy can be used to make evil people your friends.

How do evil people treat their friends? Think about it.

tannish2
2007-09-27, 12:59 AM
It is true that Diplomacy can be used to make evil people your friends.

How do evil people treat their friends? Think about it.

the same as they treat their enemies, they just do it later.

Machete
2007-09-27, 01:10 AM
It seems the question is more complicated than I first thought.

Perhaps I should have asked something more along the lines of:

What are the best combat skills?

What are the best nonspellcasting out of combat skills?


Oh, btw, Pun Pun. Just going to mention it for mentioning sake.

Leon
2007-09-27, 01:19 AM
Skill Mastery doesn't give you a bonus on your checks, it allows you to take 10 even if stress or distractions would prevent it (we can get into whether this lets you take 10 with UMD later)



hehe, reminds me of when i first started playing 3rd ed, i was getting phenomenal results with various skills until it was pointed out that the 10 replaced my roll :smallsmile:


Top 5

Spot/Listen
Survival
Tumble
Concentration
UMD

Edea
2007-09-27, 01:23 AM
Craft (basketweaving) :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-27, 02:52 AM
It is true that Diplomacy can be used to make evil people your friends.

How do evil people treat their friends? Think about it.

How do Good people treat their friends? :smalltongue:

A friend is a friend, no matter what your alignment is. A Good person could treat his friends like dirt, and an Evil person could be absolutely devoted to defending them from even perceived insults.

Alignment is not a straightjacket.


It seems the question is more complicated than I first thought.

Perhaps I should have asked something more along the lines of:

What are the best combat skills?

What are the best nonspellcasting out of combat skills?


Oh, btw, Pun Pun. Just going to mention it for mentioning sake.

What does the God of Munchkinry have to do with skills (other than the fact that he has an arbitrarily high modifier for each one)?

Bender
2007-09-27, 06:44 AM
Diplomacy is finding words to persuade someone. It is knowing what would offend your antagonist. You would know that even mentioning a red dragon's hoard would piss him off, so you don't. With the diplomacy check you make him friendly, or even helpful, but as soon as you ask for even a dime, he goes right back to hostile.
Nothing in the skill description says how long the NPC keeps his new mood anyway.

A red dragon probably wouldn't listen to you if you speak lowly common to it, so you'd have to know draconic. Possibly, you need a good knowledge(arcana) check to know what could be convincing for it. If it comes roaring at you, you can't even shout loud enough for it to hear you.
So yes, you can use diplomacy according to the RAW, without necessarily breaking the game.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-27, 06:54 AM
What are the best combat skills?

What are the best nonspellcasting out of combat skills?

Both have already been answered in this thread, several times. It's up to you whether you consider "bluff" a combat skill or not, as it has uses both in and outside combat. Etc.

TK-Squared
2007-09-27, 07:25 AM
By RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm), you can never take ten on a UMD check.

Warlock 4.

SCPRedMage
2007-09-27, 07:40 AM
Warlock 4.
Better yet, Artificer 13. Explicitly grants Skill Mastery (not a work-alike with a different name) for both Spellcraft and UMD.

So if WotC gives you a class that gives Skill Mastery for UMD, that's a darn good indicator that the Skill Mastery "can always take 10" supercedes the UMD "never take ten".

sikyon
2007-09-27, 08:34 AM
Diplomacy is finding words to persuade someone. It is knowing what would offend your antagonist. You would know that even mentioning a red dragon's hoard would piss him off, so you don't. With the diplomacy check you make him friendly, or even helpful, but as soon as you ask for even a dime, he goes right back to hostile.
Nothing in the skill description says how long the NPC keeps his new mood anyway.

A red dragon probably wouldn't listen to you if you speak lowly common to it, so you'd have to know draconic. Possibly, you need a good knowledge(arcana) check to know what could be convincing for it. If it comes roaring at you, you can't even shout loud enough for it to hear you.
So yes, you can use diplomacy according to the RAW, without necessarily breaking the game.

Diplomacy is rolling a d20 to persuade someone. It is rolling a d20. You would know that you don't have to RP the diplomacy, so you don't. With the diplomacy check you make him friendly, or even helpful, but as soon as you ask for even a dime, he gives you the dime because in the description of diplomacy it says he will aid you. He won't give you his horde, because he won't sacrifice himself for you (that's fanatic).
Nothing in the skill description says how long the NPC keeps his new mood anyway, but logically the new mood is kept until something changes it. Performing an action described as part of the new attitude will not logically change his mood.

A red dragon probably wouldn't listen to you if you speak lowly common to it, so you'd have to know draconic. Possibly, you need a good knowledge(arcana) check to know what could be convincing for it. If it comes roaring at you, you can't even shout loud enough for it to hear you.
On the other hand, language isn't even mentioned in RAW for the diplomacy skill.

Xanos
2007-09-27, 08:44 AM
Diplomacy is rolling a d20 to persuade someone. It is rolling a d20. You would know that you don't have to RP the diplomacy, so you don't. With the diplomacy check you make him friendly, or even helpful, but as soon as you ask for even a dime, he gives you the dime because in the description of diplomacy it says he will aid you. He won't give you his horde, because he won't sacrifice himself for you (that's fanatic).
Nothing in the skill description says how long the NPC keeps his new mood anyway, but logically the new mood is kept until something changes it. Performing an action described as part of the new attitude will not logically change his mood.

A red dragon probably wouldn't listen to you if you speak lowly common to it, so you'd have to know draconic. Possibly, you need a good knowledge(arcana) check to know what could be convincing for it. If it comes roaring at you, you can't even shout loud enough for it to hear you.
On the other hand, language isn't even mentioned in RAW for the diplomacy skill.
2 words: Common Sense.
Of course a red dragon will be pissed. By your logics, my new best friend Munch McKing, who's an NPC, has to give me his firstborn because I asked him for it, because the description says so.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-27, 08:50 AM
2 words: Common Sense.

I've played enough Magic: the Gathering to know that Sense is at least a Rare, possibly out of print.

Person_Man
2007-09-27, 08:52 AM
Re: UMD

Once you get to mid-high levels, your biggest challenge isn't dealing damage, its overcoming special abilities and magic. Flight, Greater Invisibility, SR, damage reduction, regeneration, dominate, etc. A smart Skill Monkey with enough ranks in UMD can simply make a list of the potential challenges, coordinate with the group to see what they can cover on a regular basis, and then buy relatively cheap wands and scrolls to deal with the rest.

Incidentally, almost all the Skill Monkeys I play focus on being an effective toolbox (Spellthief, Psionic Rogue, Beguiler, Factotum), rather than trying to max out Precision Damage (Rogue, Scout, Ninja, Daring Outlaw). Let the party Fighter and Wizard deal with normal combats. A good Skill Monkey excels at solving problems, not hitting them with a stick or blowing them up.

sikyon
2007-09-27, 08:54 AM
2 words: Common Sense.
Of course a red dragon will be pissed. By your logics, my new best friend Munch McKing, who's an NPC, has to give me his firstborn because I asked him for it, because the description says so.

2 words: By RAW.


A red dragon will be pissed if you ask him for his HORDE. If you ask him for some aid, like, I need X gold coins then he may help you. Depends on the amount. Larger amounts, if you promise to pay him back then he might.

An NPC won't give you his babies because that would be self defeating. If you really needed them, he would probably accompany you with them.

It says aid people. Look, as long as it's not a totally unreasonable request the NPC should grant it. As long as it's not self defeating it should be OK. Giving away a horde is self defeating. Running infront of a neutronium golem is self defeating. Giving away your children is self defeating. However, all of these could be mitigated by promises from the PC, or insurance against getting screwed up. Like a promise to repay (maybe leave collatoral) or accomanying you to help protect their children.

Bender
2007-09-27, 09:14 AM
How do Good people treat their friends? :smalltongue:

A friend is a friend, no matter what your alignment is. A Good person could treat his friends like dirt, and an Evil person could be absolutely devoted to defending them from even perceived insults.

Alignment is not a straightjacket.

A paladin that treats his friends like dirt regularly risks falling when I DM. Solitary, powerful, evil beings like coloured dragons, liches... often don't have a concept for love or friendship. They don't need it. They don't hesitate to kill a close friend or ally if their is only a slight profit to gain from such action. Good people don't treat their friends like that.

Of course, alignment is not a straightjacket. It is possible that plenty of good deeds compensate for lack of loyalty to your friends. It is also possible for an evil person to be a devoted or trustworthy friend.
But there are two problems:
first: in the red dragon example, we're talking about a really evil being, not just a petty evil assassin or necromancer. They only long for power and care for naught else.
second: even an ordinary evil creature like a goblin or an orc won't consider you a close friend in 6 seconds. They might not kill you immediately and show you the way to whatever you're looking for. They might also have a change of heart and see that you do indeed look tasty from behind and charge you as you think you've won.


Diplomacy is rolling a d20 to persuade someone. It is rolling a d20. You would know that you don't have to RP the diplomacy, so you don't.
You don't RP it, the dice do it for you, but your character does need to make some convincing argument anyway.


With the diplomacy check you make him friendly, or even helpful, but as soon as you ask for even a dime, he gives you the dime because in the description of diplomacy it says he will aid you.
It actually doesn't say that. It is described as a possible action, not a guaranteed one.


He won't give you his horde, because he won't sacrifice himself for you (that's fanatic).
Nothing in the skill description says how long the NPC keeps his new mood anyway, but logically the new mood is kept until something changes it. Performing an action described as part of the new attitude will not logically change his mood.
In the RAW, it doesn't say that requesting an action that's possibly a part of the new mood can't change it, so there is no logic in that. It completely depends on the NPC, and thus the DM.


A red dragon probably wouldn't listen to you if you speak lowly common to it, so you'd have to know draconic. Possibly, you need a good knowledge(arcana) check to know what could be convincing for it. If it comes roaring at you, you can't even shout loud enough for it to hear you.
On the other hand, language isn't even mentioned in RAW for the diplomacy skill.
Neither is line of sight, line of effect or range. Actually, with one diplomacy check, you can make every single creature in every single plane helpful to you, even punpun.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-27, 09:16 AM
A red dragon will be pissed if you ask him for his HORDE.

1 word: HOARD.

A "horde" is an originally-Turkish word referring to a clan of nomads.

Vasdenjas
2007-09-27, 09:25 AM
2 words: By RAW.


A red dragon will be pissed if you ask him for his HORDE. If you ask him for some aid, like, I need X gold coins then he may help you. Depends on the amount. Larger amounts, if you promise to pay him back then he might.

An NPC won't give you his babies because that would be self defeating. If you really needed them, he would probably accompany you with them.

It says aid people. Look, as long as it's not a totally unreasonable request the NPC should grant it. As long as it's not self defeating it should be OK. Giving away a horde is self defeating. Running infront of a neutronium golem is self defeating. Giving away your children is self defeating. However, all of these could be mitigated by promises from the PC, or insurance against getting screwed up. Like a promise to repay (maybe leave collatoral) or accomanying you to help protect their children.

Ok, fine. You play by RAW.
A Quote from the WoTC Optimization Boards - The Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization:



3. RAW is a myth.
This is one of the dirty little secrets of the board. The Most Holy RAW is invoked continuously by those who want to give their arguments the veneer of officiality. The problem is, RAW is generally applied not as "The Rules as Written," but rather as "The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah." The RAITAYCPIWN. Not quite as catchy an acronym, granted, but that's what it boils down to.

This game cannot be played without interpretation and the judicious application of common sense. Try to play the game strictly and exclusively by the rules as written, and you have an unplayable game.

Using "RAW" as a defense is similarly meaningless--particularly when your defense rests on interpretation. If you're going to claim that your build is RAW, you'd better be able to make sure that the rules specifically uphold your claim...not simply that they're sort of vague and COULD be interpreted in such a way as to not FORBID your claim.

This becomes particularly important when your claim is especially controversial.

Yes, builds should adhere to the rules as written. Yes, any exceptions to that should be noted. But the RAW as some sort of entity unto itself, capable of rendering a build immune to criticism, is not a useful construction, and causes more problems than it solves.

sikyon
2007-09-27, 09:39 AM
A
Of course, alignment is not a straightjacket. It is possible that plenty of good deeds compensate for lack of loyalty to your friends. It is also possible for an evil person to be a devoted or trustworthy friend.
But there are two problems:
first: in the red dragon example, we're talking about a really evil being, not just a petty evil assassin or necromancer. They only long for power and care for naught else.
second: even an ordinary evil creature like a goblin or an orc won't consider you a close friend in 6 seconds. They might not kill you immediately and show you the way to whatever you're looking for. They might also have a change of heart and see that you do indeed look tasty from behind and charge you as you think you've won.


They may not consider you a friend, but they will be helpful towards you. Weather or not you are an actual friend is irrelevant, until they have reason to do otherwise. Opening up yourself to attack may be reason, but you could just diplomacy check again.




You don't RP it, the dice do it for you, but your character does need to make some convincing argument anyway.


And they make said argument if you roll the required DC. Do I know what it is? No, and I don't particularly care, because it has little bearing.



It actually doesn't say that. It is described as a possible action, not a guaranteed one.



If a few actions are listed as possible, then are other actions impossible? If a hostile creature tries to protect you, it's not really hostile, is it? If a helpful creature tries to attack you, it's not helpful at all, is it? By taking opposite actions other than the ones listed you infact no longer in that attitude category. And there should be a good reason for the NPC to have changed categories.



In the RAW, it doesn't say that requesting an action that's possibly a part of the new mood can't change it, so there is no logic in that. It completely depends on the NPC, and thus the DM.


In the RAW, it doesn't say anything about moods changing after you diplomacy either, so there's no logic in that.



Neither is line of sight, line of effect or range. Actually, with one diplomacy check, you can make every single creature in every single plane helpful to you, even punpun.

Your point?

Bender
2007-09-27, 10:05 AM
They may not consider you a friend, but they will be helpful towards you. Weather or not you are an actual friend is irrelevant, until they have reason to do otherwise. Opening up yourself to attack may be reason, but you could just diplomacy check again.
Asking for a dime might be a good reason for a greedy dragon. You can make a diplomacy check again, but if you didn't win initiative, you'll probably make your diplomacy check with less hitpoints.

And they make said argument if you roll the required DC. Do I know what it is? No, and I don't particularly care, because it has little bearing.
What it is doesn't matter, that's right. What matters is that you have to be able to make the argument in the first place. If he doesn't listen, no argument.

If a few actions are listed as possible, then are other actions impossible? If a hostile creature tries to protect you, it's not really hostile, is it? If a helpful creature tries to attack you, it's not helpful at all, is it? By taking opposite actions other than the ones listed you infact no longer in that attitude category. And there should be a good reason for the NPC to have changed categories.
A hostile creature might protect you if his boss told him to. As soon as his boss say "do what you wish", that's something else. A helpful creature won't attack you, but it doesn't necessarily do what you ask either. It is possible, but not necessary.
About changing categories: some creatures, especially chaotic ones, could have a change of heart every two seconds. It's not fair to do that to a PC who just made a wonderful argument, but it can happen once in a while (I wouldn't do this often, but keep the players alert). Of course, asking a dragon for a dime can be a good reason to change categories. It doesn't have to be evil btw, a helpful gold dragon might ask you politely to leave if you ask for a dime.

In the RAW, it doesn't say anything about moods changing after you diplomacy either, so there's no logic in that.
true, there is as much logic in either changing or not changing moods after a check :smallsmile:

Your point?
my point is that diplomacy is definitely the most powerful skill. Just make a diplomacy check against some greater deity. A greater deity is probably indifferent towards you, so you only need a result of 30. Ask him or her whatever you want.
((btw: I was just being sarcastic about the comment that you don't need to speak a language the antagonist understands))

sikyon
2007-09-27, 12:05 PM
Asking for a dime might be a good reason for a greedy dragon. You can make a diplomacy check again, but if you didn't win initiative, you'll probably make your diplomacy check with less hitpoints.


Possibly... but I don't think that would actually bring him back down to hostile all the way from helpful.



What it is doesn't matter, that's right. What matters is that you have to be able to make the argument in the first place. If he doesn't listen, no argument.


Yes, but because diplomacy is a check it is seemingly always possible to make the argument. He has to listen, because diplomacy says so.



A hostile creature might protect you if his boss told him to. As soon as his boss say "do what you wish", that's something else. A helpful creature won't attack you, but it doesn't necessarily do what you ask either. It is possible, but not necessary.

If it doesn't do what you ask, then wouldn't he just be friendly? Or indifferent?



About changing categories: some creatures, especially chaotic ones, could have a change of heart every two seconds. It's not fair to do that to a PC who just made a wonderful argument, but it can happen once in a while (I wouldn't do this often, but keep the players alert). Of course, asking a dragon for a dime can be a good reason to change categories. It doesn't have to be evil btw, a helpful gold dragon might ask you politely to leave if you ask for a dime.


You could just diplomacy for a speficic action, and their mood would change directly inrelation to that task. For example, you diplomacy to helpful mood first, then you use a diplomacy check to ask for the money. I'd put this under the negotiaton use of diplomacy, so an opposed check here (though this would actually be far easier).




true, there is as much logic in either changing or not changing moods after a check :smallsmile:

my point is that diplomacy is definitely the most powerful skill. Just make a diplomacy check against some greater deity. A greater deity is probably indifferent towards you, so you only need a result of 30. Ask him or her whatever you want.

Heh, so either diplomacy is completely useless or the most powerful :smallamused:



((btw: I was just being sarcastic about the comment that you don't need to speak a language the antagonist understands))

I know, it's just a debate technique to make the other person seem less witty when using sarcasm, and reverse the advantage... "Assuming" makes U a pain in the Ass to Me! :smalltongue:

Bender
2007-09-27, 12:45 PM
Possibly... but I don't think that would actually bring him back down to hostile all the way from helpful.
probably, depends on the dragon

Yes, but because diplomacy is a check it is seemingly always possible to make the argument. He has to listen, because diplomacy says so.
well, there is a serious lack of situational requirements in the diplomacy entry if you ask me...

If it doesn't do what you ask, then wouldn't he just be friendly? Or indifferent?
When you charm someone he doesn't even do everything you ask, how could a nonmagical effect be more powerful? But you have a point. My point was that different NPC's have different criteria for what's out of the question. Giving a single dime might be...

You could just diplomacy for a speficic action, and their mood would change directly inrelation to that task. For example, you diplomacy to helpful mood first, then you use a diplomacy check to ask for the money. I'd put this under the negotiaton use of diplomacy, so an opposed check here (though this would actually be far easier).
There is still the factor of the likelihood a certain NPC gives in to a certain request. Only the DM can decide that.

Heh, so either diplomacy is completely useless or the most powerful :smallamused:
You just need a DM that lets you get away with some things, but not with everything. Then there's no problem.

hm, I guess I don't quite disagree with the arguments in your last post as much. Our opposite opinions seem to be growing together :smallconfused:. Most of my counterarguments seem to be focused on DM intervention and sense...
But I must admit I like our discussion :smalltongue:

tainsouvra
2007-09-27, 12:53 PM
Did you not read my RAW quote? I read it just fine, but I disagree as to the extent to which it can cause a creature to violate its base nature, motivations, etc. You are under the impression that Diplomacy trumps them, while I am under the impression that it does not. You have no more proof of your stance than mine, and mine avoids breaking the game. I'll stick with my interpretation, the one that doesn't break the game, thank you very much. :smallamused:
Diplomacy is rolling a d20 to persuade someone. It is rolling a d20. That's how you play it, but that's not RAW, and it's not wise to claim that it is. If you want to play your set of stats against another's set of stats, that's fine, but there are also people playing a role-playing game in which all the stats are aspects of a character. Let's not get into an unnecessary "rollplaying vs roleplaying" debate here, hmm? His way is at least as justified by the rules as yours, so stop trying to tell him that he is wrong. He isn't.
On the other hand, language isn't even mentioned in RAW for the diplomacy skill. Yes, and the section on character death does not state that they cannot take actions. Thus, you can use diplomacy to make creatures violate their nature, without speaking their language, if you play in the sort of game that also allows the dead to continue to take actions with no impediment. I do not know anyone who plays in that nonsensical of a game, and I think if you stopped to analyze how absurd your "RAW" claims are getting, you'd see that it's a very poor idea to champion them.

Use a little common sense.

Telonius
2007-09-27, 01:08 PM
The most powerful skill is obviously Craft (Doily). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

Zherog
2007-09-27, 01:19 PM
Diplomacy's power doesn't come just from what you can do with the skill. It also comes from the fact that the skill has a fixed DC. So if you're diplomancing a 1 HD commoner or a gajillion hit die over-deity doesn't matter; both cases will have the same (low) DC to accomplish success.

Hyfigh
2007-09-27, 01:28 PM
I'm surprised no ones mentioned Knowledge: Planes yet.

Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu and all that jazz...

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-27, 03:14 PM
Best feats, worst feats, most powerful classes. All good but some are limited by choices.

Skills are fairly universal, especially to rogues, factotums, and the like.

What are some of the most powerful skills and WHY?

Perhaps the top 5?

Barring an environment where DiploCheese is allowed (Note that Diplomacy is *so powerful* it's listed on the CharOp Campaign Smashers list right next to Pun Pun himself), Use Magic Device is pretty much the best. Indeed, with the right spell, you can pretend you have greater than max ranks in pretty much every other skill. UMD is pretty much a significant class feature in its own right, and it actually expands your party role in combat fairly significantly.

sikyon
2007-09-27, 03:19 PM
I read it just fine, but I disagree as to the extent to which it can cause a creature to violate its base nature, motivations, etc. You are under the impression that Diplomacy trumps them, while I am under the impression that it does not. You have no more proof of your stance than mine, and mine avoids breaking the game. I'll stick with my interpretation, the one that doesn't break the game, thank you very much. :smallamused:

The table tells you the possible actions that the new mood can make the creature do. It doesn't have different tables for different creatures, just one universal table. I'd reason that this provides evidence that diplomacy overrides a creature's nature.


That's how you play it, but that's not RAW, and it's not wise to claim that it is. If you want to play your set of stats against another's set of stats, that's fine, but there are also people playing a role-playing game in which all the stats are aspects of a character. Let's not get into an unnecessary "rollplaying vs roleplaying" debate here, hmm? His way is at least as justified by the rules as yours, so stop trying to tell him that he is wrong. He isn't.

But isn't rollplaying vs roleplaying exactly the problem with diplomacy? Diplomacy seems like exactly the kind of thing you'd roleplay, but RAW tells you to rollplay it...


Yes, and the section on character death does not state that they cannot take actions. Thus, you can use diplomacy to make creatures violate their nature, without speaking their language, if you play in the sort of game that also allows the dead to continue to take actions with no impediment. I do not know anyone who plays in that nonsensical of a game


Yes, such a nonsensical game where the dead can return to life, the laws of thermodynaics don't exist, elves and dragons run around and the physics of the game are a poor approximation of real life. Oh wait. This is D&D, disregard that statement. I forgot, D&D is almost completely nonsensical anyways.


I think if you stopped to analyze how absurd your "RAW" claims are getting, you'd see that it's a very poor idea to champion them.


If you thought that was what I thought then you thought wrong, because my thoughts are different from your thoughts.



Use a little common sense.

If I've learned anything from studying quantum mechanics (and god I hope I have before my midterm) then it's this: Don't apply common sense because what you think is true cannot be reliably applied to systems which are not intrinsically linked to a Newtonian world. Quantum mechanics is not such a system, and neither is D&D. Don't do things because you "think they should be that way"; do things because they are built on a foundation of logic applied to the universal rules of the system.


well, there is a serious lack of situational requirements in the diplomacy entry if you ask me...

It's true. DM's have to apply situational modifiers... the problem with diplomacy is that diplomancers have checks that can beat any reasonable situational modifier.


When you charm someone he doesn't even do everything you ask, how could a nonmagical effect be more powerful? But you have a point. My point was that different NPC's have different criteria for what's out of the question. Giving a single dime might be...

Well, a sword bashing someone can be more powerful than a magical missile. Magic isn't the end all be all. The way I'd see it is that if you asked for the whole hoard, then the dragon would probably think you were joking and laugh it off. If you were adamant then he'd become less friendly and tell you no. I mean, creatures with int that high don't just go off on a wire (unless they are naturally that way).


You just need a DM that lets you get away with some things, but not with everything. Then there's no problem.

The problem with that is the scope of what I can get away with. I perfer that the power of my character and his actions be in my hands rather than the DM's hands, honestly. So the DM can set up challenges but I'd like it if he didn't arbitraily decide things. I'm a rational guy, I like to think things out. I hate being a pawn. DM's world, PC's story.




hm, I guess I don't quite disagree with the arguments in your last post as much. Our opposite opinions seem to be growing together . Most of my counterarguments seem to be focused on DM intervention and sense...
But I must admit I like our discussion

Yeah the DM really needs to intervene alot with diplomacy, or rewrite the whole system. Personally, I'd go with lower DC's, make diplomacy a RP thing but have diplomacy checks give bonuses to the RP'ing.

Oh, I like our discussion too


Diplomacy's power doesn't come just from what you can do with the skill. It also comes from the fact that the skill has a fixed DC. So if you're diplomancing a 1 HD commoner or a gajillion hit die over-deity doesn't matter; both cases will have the same (low) DC to accomplish success.

Well... is the difficulty of presenting a reasonable argument is the same no matter who I'm talking to. Diplomacy just doesn't take into account how reasonable the other party is :smalltongue:

horseboy
2007-09-27, 05:05 PM
Yeah the DM really needs to intervene alot with diplomacy, or rewrite the whole system. Personally, I'd go with lower DC's, make diplomacy a RP thing but have diplomacy checks give bonuses to the RP'ing.


A lot is two words.
That or make it a limited use per encounter, one use can only raise attitude one degree. That way it takes a long time to make an ally.

JackMage666
2007-09-27, 05:21 PM
Just give penalties... For example, if he's trying to get the Red Dragon to give him his horde, the Diplomancer takes.... -X, where X is his Skill Modifier.

tainsouvra
2007-09-27, 05:21 PM
The table tells you the possible actions that the new mood can make the creature do. It doesn't have different tables for different creatures, just one universal table. I'd reason that this provides evidence that diplomacy overrides a creature's nature. This, however, contradicts the listed use of the skill--"You can change the attitudes of others" is all the skill is listed as being capable of doing! The skill is never said to be capable of doing anything except changing another's attitude. Claiming that a creature's nature is changed, despite the skill only being able to change a creature's attitude, is a clear misinterpretation of the rules rather than a strict RAW reading. Changing a creature's very nature, right down to making it do things that are unthinkable for a member of its species, far surpasses "changing his attitude" and thus is not defined as being within the scope of the skill.

Let me remind you that the text of a skill is a higher source than a table for a skill. If the table indicates a creature would take an action, but it is outside of the scope of what the text of a skill would permit, the table is overridden and the text takes precedence. This is one of the more obvious reasons why the "changes the attitude" text is, per RAW, more important than the entries you are reading off the table.

In short, no, RAW does not say what you think it says. Diplomacy changes attitudes, not basic natures.
But isn't rollplaying vs roleplaying exactly the problem with diplomacy? Diplomacy seems like exactly the kind of thing you'd roleplay, but RAW tells you to rollplay it... This is irrelevant, unless you consider a creature's nature part of roleplay rather than rollplay--in which case RAW says precisely the opposite of what you claim. See above.
Yes, such a nonsensical game where the dead can return to life, the laws of thermodynaics don't exist, elves and dragons run around and the physics of the game are a poor approximation of real life. Oh wait. This is D&D, disregard that statement. I forgot, D&D is almost completely nonsensical anyways. Red herring, and a poor one at that. Let me reiterate my statement:
Do you play games in which a normal human at -12HP can continue to take actions as if nothing had occurred? If you don't, you're admitting that common sense should fill in what the rules omit.

Rockphed
2007-09-27, 05:48 PM
Better yet, Artificer 13. Explicitly grants Skill Mastery (not a work-alike with a different name) for both Spellcraft and UMD.

So if WotC gives you a class that gives Skill Mastery for UMD, that's a darn good indicator that the Skill Mastery "can always take 10" supercedes the UMD "never take ten".

See, I don't have access to Complete Arcane or any Ebberon books. But thank you very much, now I know that UMDing with Skill Mastery totally rocks. Now to go design a "Diplomacy/UMD/Bluff" Rogue.

cattoy
2007-09-27, 05:48 PM
It all depends on the DM.

In a game I'm in right now, Diplomacy is the most useless skill in the book because all of the NPCs are programmed like robots and they're either clueless/useless or aggressive/hostile/brainwashed/robotic/out_to_screw_the_PCs_no_matter_what_they_say

Also, said DM rules that once anybody takes a disliking to you, any attempt to talk them out of anything requires a bluff or intimidate check instead of diplomacy, making it even more useless.

Telvos
2007-09-27, 06:17 PM
"Helpful" does not mean "Gives you things" (generally). It might mean "Giving you directions out of the cave", or even "Is willing to trade with you at a discount", and in most cases "Is willing to hire your services as an adventurer".

It doesn't even always mean "Not going to try to kill you," but it generally means "Will apologize while killing you."

Quoted, for truth.

I got sick of people in roleplay games coming up to me and saying "Hey, give me money!" and then making me roll a diplomacy check in order to avoid having to give them all my money.

It's diplomacy, not mind control. Look at the description a bit more. It shifts a person's attitude towards you. If someone hates you, a successful diplomacy check makes them hate you less (bringing them to just kind angry with you).

Spiryt
2007-09-27, 06:23 PM
Quoted, for truth.

I got sick of people in roleplay games coming up to me and saying "Hey, give me money!" and then making me roll a diplomacy check in order to avoid having to give them all my money.

It's diplomacy, not mind control. Look at the description a bit more. It shifts a person's attitude towards you. If someone hates you, a successful diplomacy check makes them hate you less (bringing them to just kind angry with you).

Well of course, but with proper Diplomacy score, you can make guy who is charging at you roaring into helpful person, (with some universal diplomatic, polite chat, or what :smalltongue: ).

Only thing that could stop it is GM sanity. Rules are written very badly.

JackMage666
2007-09-27, 06:32 PM
The reason you cannot take 10 on UMD checks with Skill Mastery, is because Skill Mastery lets you take 10 even if you're rushed or threatened.

Take climb, for instance... If under no pressure, you can take 10 to make it easier. If under some pressure, can't apply the same focus, and thus need to actually make a check. With Skill Mastery, you stay relaxed and can take 10.

With UMD, though, it doesn't matter if you're relaxed or not, you always have to make the check. So, while Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 if your threatened with certain skills, it has no effect on UMD since UMD doesn't care if you're threatened.

The Warlock's ability and The Artificer's ability (I'm not sure on this one, as I haven't read the Artificer class), are special exceptions to the rule, and I do believe that the Warlock ability includes that in the description.

sikyon
2007-09-27, 07:53 PM
This, however, contradicts the listed use of the skill--"You can change the attitudes of others" is all the skill is listed as being capable of doing! The skill is never said to be capable of doing anything except changing another's attitude. Claiming that a creature's nature is changed, despite the skill only being able to change a creature's attitude, is a clear misinterpretation of the rules rather than a strict RAW reading. Changing a creature's very nature, right down to making it do things that are unthinkable for a member of its species, far surpasses "changing his attitude" and thus is not defined as being within the scope of the skill.

If the creature's nature is to never be helpful, and your skill changes his attitude to helpful, then his nature has been overridden and he is now helpful. The table lists actions associated with being helpful. Helpful is no longer a relative term, it is now absolute because the table defines the actions associated. Not all the actions need be performed, but their possibility and implication can't be ignored.

Ie. Good and evil are relative terms in real life. But D&D defines them specifically. Helpful and hostile are relative terms in real life too. But my argument is that the diplomacy skill defines these terms in D&D, perhaps more ambiguously, but in the same general way as good and evil have been defined.


Red herring, and a poor one at that. Let me reiterate my statement:
Do you play games in which a normal human at -12HP can continue to take actions as if nothing had occurred? If you don't, you're admitting that common sense should fill in what the rules omit.

A) You asked me if I knew of any person who played a game as nonsensical as one where people kept taking actions when they were dead. I responded that returning to life was just as nonsensical, and many people play games like that. I was answering your question, which I paraphrased (though I answered it sarcastically, but I'm sure that wasn't lost on you)

B) I do not play games in which a normal human at -12HP can continue to take actions as if nothing has occurred. I do NOT admit that common sense should fill in what the rules omit. I propose that the DM does this. Also, there is the possibility I don't actually play games. Do not suggest things I will say, please.

C) Calling my argument a Red Herring is a Red Herring, and possibly an attempt at Ad hominem (attack on me instead of my argument). This is an internet forum and not a debate room (I got burned on this once by a mod), thus using these terms like this are inappropriate, apparently.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Firefingers
2007-09-27, 08:44 PM
I would be very careful about your interpretation of diplomacy silkyon otherwise your DM could generate his own diplomancer BBEG and have you do stuff for him under the same arguement (up to and including retrieving the MacGuffin for him etc)

Hence why a sane and sensible interpretation such as doesnt alter the underlying nature of the character presented was included in the text description to allow both players and DM's a way to explain why diplomacy doesnt work in all cases.

btw dont try the but im a PC I have control over my actions because the monsters are NPC's and the DM has control over their actions to the same extent permitted by the rules.

Chronos
2007-09-27, 10:19 PM
Here's some food for thought, about Diplomacy: NPCs have attitudes even without using the skill. For instance, that nobleman's guards? They're probably Helpful towards the guy they're guarding. Even if you can shift them to be Helpful to you, that in no way changes the fact that they're also still Helpful to the nobleman. Which means that they'll be inclined to defend him in combat, too. Now if, after diplomacizing them, you attack the noble, what happens? If you rule that a Helpful person must assist in combat, then the guards are forced to both defend the noble and to help you kill him. In fact, even if you don't make the ludicrous assumption that the guards are obligated to act a certain way, they're going to have a pretty hard staying Helpful to both you and the noble. Which means that their attitude is probably going to change relative to one of you, and given that they've been working for the nobleman for a long time, and you're the one who attacked, it's probably their attitude towards you which is going to be the one that changes.

Leon
2007-09-27, 10:40 PM
Ok, fine. You play by RAW.
A Quote from the WoTC Optimization Boards - The Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization:

Not that they should be given more than a grain of salt

sikyon
2007-09-27, 10:46 PM
btw dont try the but im a PC I have control over my actions because the monsters are NPC's and the DM has control over their actions to the same extent permitted by the rules.

Actually that works perfectly because the diplomacy skill explicitly excludes PC's from being effected by it.

Also, DM should not have that kind of control over NPC's, the same way Players have control over their characters. He's supposed to play them the way they are written... ie. mindless creatures are truly mindless and can't use strategy, etc. Following the standard battle strategies for the creatures unless there is reason otherwise.


Even if you can shift them to be Helpful to you, that in no way changes the fact that they're also still Helpful to the nobleman.

This is a sticky situation and goes into the realm of speculations. But let us speculate!

I'd say that it could in fact their attitude towards the nobleperson. Depending on how you diplomacied him. Ie. "I'll give you more money than he does" would make him helpful to you an indifferent to the noble, which could change his attitude. I mean, he's not your friend or anything... he's just helpful. But it's all speculation. Ie. who really determines what changes a mood? Personally, I'd suggest that someone who uses diplomacy could very well change your mood towards another person...

Personally, I'd force the DC higher by adding the DC for the change of the new mood towards the noble for the guards and the change of the new mood towards you.

Bender
2007-09-28, 01:00 AM
Also, DM should not have that kind of control over NPC's, the same way Players have control over their characters. He's supposed to play them the way they are written... ie. mindless creatures are truly mindless and can't use strategy, etc. Following the standard battle strategies for the creatures unless there is reason otherwise.
So if the DM writes his NPC's, or changes those in modules before the game, to not be persuasible to do something absurd, it's ok for him to do that.
In a game with a PC that relies on diplomacy, the DM should indeed prepare beforehand how an NPC would react, what is required for it to change his mood... including how rapidly it can change back. All making sure the PC isn't shrewed, but doesn't break the game either.
Anyway, the other PC's will probably just kill him sooner or later, because they see all the juicy XP walk away happy and helpful. And the diplomancer is helpless against his fellow PC's

This is a sticky situation and goes into the realm of speculations. But let us speculate!

I'd say that it could in fact their attitude towards the nobleperson. Depending on how you diplomacied him. Ie. "I'll give you more money than he does" would make him helpful to you an indifferent to the noble, which could change his attitude. I mean, he's not your friend or anything... he's just helpful. But it's all speculation. Ie. who really determines what changes a mood? Personally, I'd suggest that someone who uses diplomacy could very well change your mood towards another person...
This is indeed speculation and a bit far fetched if you ask me. It requires your DM to favour you in a way that will be unacceptable for many. Besides, if one of the guards is lawful good (or just very loyal), he'll probably not take the bribe and warn the noble. The diplomacy skill does not include bribing (it doesn't have a material cost mentioned). Trying to bribe a guard you turned helpful might change his mood again.
And be honest, if you can change a mood from hostile to helpful in six seconds, it is reasonable to assume that the reverse is possible.

Personally, I'd force the DC higher by adding the DC for the change of the new mood towards the noble for the guards and the change of the new mood towards you.
The problem with forcing the DC higher is that the DC's are to low anyway. Besides, you're going way outside the scope of the skill.

kjones
2007-09-28, 08:17 AM
Assuming that common sense and logic have their place in D&D, let's look at this "getting guards to attack their lord" thing logically.

The guards are loyal to their lord. If you make a successful diplomacy check against DC Foo, per RAW, they will become helpful to you as well. This does not change their attitude to their lord.

Look at it this way. If two of your friends are fighting, you don't want to take sides, you just want them all to get along. It's the same thing with these guards. They'll aid you, certainly, but they won't go against their "natures", i. e. their previously established attitudes towards everyone and everything.

sikyon
2007-09-28, 10:55 AM
Assuming that common sense and logic have their place in D&D, let's look at this "getting guards to attack their lord" thing logically.

The guards are loyal to their lord. If you make a successful diplomacy check against DC Foo, per RAW, they will become helpful to you as well. This does not change their attitude to their lord.

Look at it this way. If two of your friends are fighting, you don't want to take sides, you just want them all to get along. It's the same thing with these guards. They'll aid you, certainly, but they won't go against their "natures", i. e. their previously established attitudes towards everyone and everything.

Well, the guards could be loyal to their noble because of a cause, or they could be loyal cause he pays them. I mean, it's too many variables.


So if the DM writes his NPC's, or changes those in modules before the game, to not be persuasible to do something absurd, it's ok for him to do that.
In a game with a PC that relies on diplomacy, the DM should indeed prepare beforehand how an NPC would react, what is required for it to change his mood... including how rapidly it can change back. All making sure the PC isn't shrewed, but doesn't break the game either.
Anyway, the other PC's will probably just kill him sooner or later, because they see all the juicy XP walk away happy and helpful. And the diplomancer is helpless against his fellow PC's

If you don't get XP, it's not your fault, it's the DM. You get XP not for killing stuff, but for overcoming challenges. Using diplomacy instead of violence is a perfectly sutible way of overcomming challenges.

And before you say that the difficulty has been reduced too much so that the XP gained isn't worth it, then let me provide the counter example of putting on shoes. If you go in a very roundabout way, stabbing and slashing things before putting on your shoes... well, you made it more challenging to be sure, but DM's usually wont' give you extra experiance for making something more challenging. Also, reduction of XP because you use nonviolent solutions would be punishing players for comming up with clever solutions instead of running in and just bashing away.


This is indeed speculation and a bit far fetched if you ask me. It requires your DM to favour you in a way that will be unacceptable for many. Besides, if one of the guards is lawful good (or just very loyal), he'll probably not take the bribe and warn the noble. The diplomacy skill does not include bribing (it doesn't have a material cost mentioned). Trying to bribe a guard you turned helpful might change his mood again.
And be honest, if you can change a mood from hostile to helpful in six seconds, it is reasonable to assume that the reverse is possible.

I was just giving bribing as an example of the sort of thing diplomacy might involve. We don't know exactly how you are diplomizing the guard, so we can't judge any aftereffects (such as what will turn him back) using logic.

Dausuul
2007-09-28, 11:10 AM
Forgery.

Why? Because it's resisted by a skill nobody takes... Forgery.

I'd just like to point out that Forgery's coolness depends entirely on no NPC taking Forgery. Which is not a good assumption. It's like assuming that Hide is the god of skills because no NPC takes Spot.

PCs seldom learn Forgery, but I'd expect any NPC whose job involved dealing with important documents to have at least some ranks in it. You might get away with it a few times if your DM didn't think to give any NPCs the skill, but pretty soon the DM will wise up and start giving Forgery to NPCs who would logically have it.