Extra damage dice for cantrips?

[Brenoli]

Hi all,

I was wondering whether there are magic items that add damage to damage cantrips like firebolt. I am specifically thinking about extra damage dice and not adding modifiers from charisma/wisdom as these are specific things from dragon sorcerer and evo wizard)

I mean, I thought that cantrips are there to keep a spellcaster relevant when out of spell slots (and/or being less reliant on spell slots), but at later levels I feel that the damage cantrips are usually so far behind that it hardly means a thing compared to melee damage dealers.

Melee damage dealers can add strenght/dex at every hit and with multiple attacks this is really going to add up. They also have more frequent attacks of oportunity and other damage enhancing things like GWM.

Then there are the weapons that get extra damage dice which add to that as well.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that melee should do more damage with there weapons and I totally agree that they should (I have a fighter myself), I am just wondering whether the gap isn't too big espacially at later levels. Therefor I wonder whether there are cantrip damage enhancing items in game and I not what do you think about it?

Just an example after level 5 with 2 attacks:

Level 8 fighter with a magical great sword that does 1D6 extra damage per hit -->
standard without GWM or other things: 6D6 + 10 = 31 average

At level 8 a wizard would do an average of 11 firebolt damage, so about 1/3 of the damage.

Thoughts?

[Unoriginal]

Hi all,
I was wondering whether there are magic items that add damage to damage cantrips like firebolt. I am specifically thinking about extra damage dice and not adding modifiers from charisma/wisdom as these are specific things from dragon sorcerer and evo wizard)

Pretty sure there isn't.



I mean, I thought that cantrips are there to keep a spellcaster relevant when out of spell slots (and/or being less reliant on spell slots), but at later levels I feel that the damage cantrips are usually so far behind that it hardly means a thing compared to melee damage dealers.

It's working as intended. Damage cantrips are supposed to be "caster can still help even without spell slots spent", not "caster is good even without spell slots spent".

Warlocks are the notable exception.



Now don't get me wrong, I understand that melee should do more damage with there weapons and I totally agree that they should (I have a fighter myself), I am just wondering whether the gap isn't too big espacially at later levels

The gap isn't too big, no. Not mechanically, in any case.

If you don't like it, which is legitimate but a matter of taste, then you can change it, but a magic item wouldn't be the solution to that.



At level 8 a wizard would do an average of 11 firebolt damage, so about 1/3 of the damage.


Yes. It's working as intended.

[MrStabby]

Firstly I don't know of any abilities like this. No reason something couldn't be homebrewed though.

Secondly, as a minor asside to you point: cantrips being worse than attacks is only half of the balance. The other half is how often they get used. As levels scale up casters also get more spell slots and are more likely to be having an ongoing effect with a concentration spell; cantrips falling further behind helps ensure balance.

[Chronos]

If a caster is out of spell slots and so is reduced to being much less effective than the warriors, that means that they've already had a bunch of rounds where they were much more effective than the warriors. You'd need an extremely long adventuring day for this balance to come out against the casters.

[Willie the Duck]

On a rudimentary level, all DMs and game groups should feel empowered to modify the game to fill gaps they find in their own play. If the pure spellcaster types are feeling underpowered, giving them a (perhaps attunement-requiring) magic item which boosts their cantrip damage by a dice (careful on how this interacts with Eldritch Blast, if at all) is not the worst thing ever. However, if your pure spellcasters are feeling underpowered, I suspect there might be a playstyle issue, more than a problem with cantrip damage.


I mean, I thought that cantrips are there to keep a spellcaster relevant when out of spell slots (and/or being less reliant on spell slots), but at later levels I feel that the damage cantrips are usually so far behind that it hardly means a thing compared to melee damage dealers.

I think maybe this has been mis-framed. A spellcaster should almost never be out of spell slots. A spellcaster should be rationing out their spell slots for appropriate use such that they end the day (or even end the night after, as some DMs feel you should sit down to your long rest with some spells still in reserve in case there is a nighttime encounter) having just potentially used up your last spell. Instead, what the cantrips are for is to keep the spellcaster's actions relevant on rounds when they choose not to use up a precious spell slot. That is really what the cantrips are for--to alleviate the old gamestyle where the wizard/mage/magic user either uses one of their very limited resources, or are pretty much throwing daggers, tossing oil, or (more recently) shooting a crossbow they don't really know how to work well (and probably won't bother getting a magic one, even when the enemies start becoming resistant to nonmagical attacks).

And it works. 1d10 firebolts when the fighters are dealing 2d6+3 or 1d8+5 is relevant. As is 3d10 when the fighters are doing 3 attacks. Throw in some cantrips with minor riders, and you are having a real effect. Just not a big real one. It still makes the decision to use your cantrip as opposed to the dodge action meaningful.


Melee damage dealers can add strenght/dex at every hit and with multiple attacks this is really going to add up. They also have more frequent attacks of oportunity and other damage enhancing things like GWM.

Then there are the weapons that get extra damage dice which add to that as well.

A thing to remember is that the extra damage from GWM and extra dice from flametongues or whatever you were thinking of are part of the fighter class features (yes, feats and magic items are part of a fighter's class features. It's an arguable position, but one I stand by. In particular because the martial-caster balance alters when you vary the presence of either in your game).

Martials get mostly at-will abilities, with a few other perks and expendables. Spellcasters (especially wizards and sorcerers) get mostly expendables, with just enough at-wills to make the decision on which one to use (in a round they don't want to use an expendable) meaningful. The two are balanced differently, and you can't make the direct comparison you are making without acknowledging the different context, and get a particularly helpful analysis.


Now don't get me wrong, I understand that melee should do more damage with there weapons and I totally agree that they should (I have a fighter myself), I am just wondering whether the gap isn't too big espacially at later levels. Therefor I wonder whether there are cantrip damage enhancing items in game and I not what do you think about it?

At later levels, the wizards/sorcerers have so many slots, the actual need for a good cantrip isn't as big as when they are 1-4th level or so.

[Zanthy1]

The closest I can think of is the Illusionist's Bracers from Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica that allows you to use a bonus action to cast a cantrip a second time.

"While wearing the bracers, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action on the same turn to cast that cantrip a second time."

So technically it could double your damage dice

[Rukelnikov]

The closest I can think of is the Illusionist's Bracers from Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica that allows you to use a bonus action to cast a cantrip a second time.

"While wearing the bracers, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action on the same turn to cast that cantrip a second time."

So technically it could double your damage dice

Most items from Ravinca are broken, these are no exception.

[Zanthy1]

Most items from Ravinca are broken, these are no exception.

While I don't disagree, the OP seems to be wanting to have something broken, as cantrip damage is well built as is, with the additional stat to damage only available with certain conditions.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Actually, I think that lacking is a great opportunity for a neat homebrewed/altered magic item.

Perhaps a special wand with (6?) charges per day which lets you add 1dX(cantrip damage die type)? Or add casting mod damage per charge? Hardly gamebreaking, but a fun little magic wand for tier 1 play?

Or maybe add it as an extra feature to a Wand of the War Mage, for longer-term value?

[Chronos]

But there's already a perfectly good mechanic for that sort of thing. What you want is "a few times per day, a spellcaster can do something that's more powerful than an ordinary cantrip". But that's what non-cantrip spells are. The novel item you're contemplating is already a spellcaster's entire schtick.

[Rukelnikov]

While I don't disagree, the OP seems to be wanting to have something broken, as cantrip damage is well built as is, with the additional stat to damage only available with certain conditions.

You are right.

It's just I can't understand what happened with that book. It's like it never saw QA.

[Gtdead]

Well, if you want to powerup his cantrips, just give him an item that empowers them by an additional dice. It won't be game changing.

There is another way, which doesn't involve cantrips. Wands!
Wizard is really awful at sustained damage unless you build for it. Wands are efficient. I'd rather get magic missiles rather than 5 more dmg on a cantrip.

It may not seem much, once you calculate hit chance, you will notice that.
At lvl 8, most enemies would have 15~ AC. The fighter will do 22~ dmg average.

A lvl 1 magic missile deals 10.5 dmg average no matter the ac. Already at 50%.
A lvl 2 magic missile deals 15.

Introduce an enemy with very high AC, make sure the wizard understands what he has to do, and he will never even bother again with puny cantrips, unless he doesn't have anything better to do.


Wand of Magic Missiles
Wand, uncommon

This wand has 7 charges. While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 or more of its charges to cast the magic missile spell from it. For 1 charge, you cast the 1st-level version of the spell. You can increase the spell slot level by one for each additional charge you expend.

The wand regains 1d6 + 1 expended charges daily at dawn. If you expend the wand’s last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the wand crumbles into ashes and is destroyed.

You can give them more charges, or make it gain 7 at dawn instead of rolling.

When all are said and done however, a wizard's mindset should be about how to end an encounter the most efficient way. Cast a well placed fireball and he already has done damage equal to the fighter's entire encounter output, has softened up enemies to be taken down faster, giving them less chances to deal damage to the party, allows the damage dealers to focus on the tougher targets faster. Unless it's a boss fight, he doesn't need to do anything else. Cantrips are there to reinforce the Fighter's output and secure a kill, not to challenge it. Give him something that will reinforce this attitude. No matter how much damage his cantrip does, fighter will do more. What he can't do is aoe and save or lose.

[rlc]

I mean, most cantrips also have other effects than just damage, even if it's a different type of damage.
And you're comparing a fighter with a magical weapon against a cantrip.

[SpanielBear]

The closest I can think of is the Illusionist's Bracers from Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica that allows you to use a bonus action to cast a cantrip a second time.

"While wearing the bracers, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action on the same turn to cast that cantrip a second time."

So technically it could double your damage dice

These are a thing???


Forget illusionists, Warlocks would kill their patrons for these!

[Rukelnikov]

These are a thing???


Forget illusionists, Warlocks would kill their patrons for these!

And many single attack classes too

[Zanthy1]

These are a thing???


Forget illusionists, Warlocks would kill their patrons for these!

Right? The description says illusionists prefer them, but they work for any cantrip.

The Magic card they are based off of is a rare equipment that doubles activated abilities of the equipped creature.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=illusionist%27s%20bracers

[Vogie]

Just an example after level 5 with 2 attacks:

Level 8 fighter with a magical great sword that does 1D6 extra damage per hit -->
standard without GWM or other things: 6D6 + 10 = 31 average

At level 8 a wizard would do an average of 11 firebolt damage, so about 1/3 of the damage.


I like how you're comparing one character without magic items to another character with incredibly powerful magic items (for the level), then blaming spellcasting. Classy.


However, to stay on point:
I assume you've already considered the Imbued Wood items from the Magic Items of Eberron UA. Here's a local thread about other variants based on that model (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?566568-WgtE-Arcane-Focus-ideas)

The best thing to do in this situation is clearly to make magic items that augment the wizard in the same way that you would augment a martial character. I'd use variations on arcane foci... here are some based on the Open SRD magic weapons -

Flame Tongue Crystal - Whenever you deal fire damage with a cantrip, you set the target aflame. That target takes an additional 2d6 fire damage at the end of their next turn unless they spend their action putting out the flames
Disrupting Orb - Whenever you hit a fiend or an undead with a cantrip, that creature takes an extra 2d6 radiant damage. If the target has 25 hit points or fewer after taking this damage, it must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or be destroyed. On a successful save, the creature becomes Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Rod of Speed - When you cast a cantrip while holding this rod, you +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls for that cantrip. If you only damaged a single creature, you may cast same cantrip as a bonus action targeting a second creature within range.
Staff of Lightning - This +1 quarterstaff also increases cantrip damage by 1d4. When you hurl it and speak its command word, it transforms into a bolt of lightning, forming a line 5 feet wide that extends out from you to a target within 120 feet. Each creature in the line, excluding you and the target, must make a DC 13 Dexterity saving throw, taking 4d6 lightning damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The lightning bolt turns back into a quarterstaff when it reaches the target. Make a ranged weapon attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes damage from the quarterstaff, plus 4d6 lightning damage. It regains this feature at the next dawn.

[Asmotherion]

The only real solution 5e has to offer you is be a 2 level dip Warlock with Agonising Blast and possibly Hex.

With that much investment you can keep up with a non nova round of a Martial and be a Caster (though with a bit slower progression).

Now the Sorlock allows you to be both a caster and swich to a cantrip machingun for a fair amount of nova rounds effectivelly filling both roles (both as a DPT "Blaster" and a "Caster of Choice" Depending on your spell choices).

That's more or less what exists in 5e.

What you're imagining does not exist or has not been invented yet in 5e. And honestly enough 5e doesn't need it.